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[url=]Ok, you're right:[/url]


In contrast with [b][i]almost every other organized religion[/i][/b], the Society of Friends (Quakers) have allowed women to serve as ministers since the early 1800s.

Emphasis added.

As far as revolutionary socialist Christianity, I will also grant you that it may have played a positive role a few thousand years ago.

Now, back to 2007...

Cueball Cueball's picture


Ghaffar Khan was a champion of women's rights and nonviolence. He became a hero in a society dominated by violence; notwithstanding his liberal views, his unswerving faith and obvious bravery led to immense respect. Throughout his life, [b]he never lost faith in his non-violent methods or in the compatibility of Islam and nonviolence. He viewed his struggle as a jihad with only the enemy holding swords.[/b] He was closely identified with Gandhi and he is known in India as the `Frontier Gandhi'.

[url=]Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan[/url]

[ 25 October 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]

Cueball Cueball's picture

[url=]El-Farouk Khaki[/url]


El-Farouk Khaki (born October 26, 1963) is a Canadian refugee and immigration lawyer and human rights activist on issues including [b]gender equality, sexual orientation, and progressive Islam. [/b]He is the New Democratic Party of Canada's candidate for the House of Commons in the riding of Toronto Centre in a by-election which must be called within six months of July 2, 2007.

[ 25 October 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]


I, too, have been attacked, even as I came to the defense of others on this forum - and without an iota of support.

I respected Oldgoat's request not to post here but comment on my offending post [i]did[/i] follow that request.



Nothing in this thread invited sexist remarks like “bitch” or “cowed”...


And for the record I don’t hate men, I just hate you.

I have never posted to be hurtful on [i]any[/i] forum but I see quite a bit of irrational hatred happening here.

I did not and would not use the word, bitch, but since when has the word "cowed" been considered sexist? I could have said, intimidated - same thing.

Cueball Cueball's picture

[url=]Liberation theology[/url]


In Christianity, [b]liberation theology is a school of theology that focuses on Jesus Christ as not only the Redeemer but also the Liberator of the oppressed.[/b] It emphasizes the Christian mission to bring justice to the poor and oppressed, particularly through political activism. Some elements of certain liberation theologies have been rejected by the Catholic Church.

At its inception, liberation theology was predominantly found in the Catholic Church after the Second Vatican Council. It is often cited as a form of Christian socialism, and it has enjoyed widespread influence in Latin America and among the Jesuits, although its influence diminished within Catholicism after the Vatican issued official rejections of the theology in the 1980s and liberation theologians were harshly admonished by Pope John Paul II (leading to the curtailing of its growth). The current Pope, Benedict XVI, has also been long known as an opponent of certain strands of liberation theology, and issued several condemnations of tendencies within it whilst head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF).

[ 25 October 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]

Vision Artist


Originally posted by remind:
[b]I do want to hear what you are saying, though I suspect, my internalized operant conditioning to a secular society, and white feminist thought, will not afford maximum understanding.[/b]

Well I think it's a big step when 'white', 'secular' sisters are willing to admit that they are under 'operant conditioning' themselves. My operant conditioning trained me to believe that i was only valuable if I was sexy, attractive in the eyes of men, and my power was measured by how much I was able to get men to drool over me (=thus weakening them). My operant conditioning taught me that being a bit overweight reduced my worth. My conditioning taught me to believe I had to play into the mysterious/exotic role that the media cut out for women of my race. I was never happy in relationships, because I never found a man who wanted to engage with my mind instead of my body. I lived freely unveiled, 'uncovered', and due to the messed up society I live in, I could not go about without men being attracted to me, touching me, smelling me, making comments about my body or hair, making advances at me- and yes it bothered me. I used to dance in a circle with my girl friends, and as I was walking out this creepy guy tells me he was watching me all night and loved how my body moved. And I wore long dresses back then (but no covering arms, neck, cleavage, hair)! Why can't guys just leave me alone! I asked...

I lived my free and secular life, without God, without faith, and even without rules. I've been there, done that. And I still was not happy. I started studying all belief systems, philosophies, and ideologies. And in the end, Islam made sense.

Unionist, I would love to give excerpts and proofs from our books that prove Islam gives all of those rights, and more (rights to animals and plant life), but I don't know if that should be a seperate thread.... it's up to you guys if you want to challenge me [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]

And so as not to go into religiousity, I can say my experience after wearing a jacket and placing a piece of fabric that normally went around my neck in winter, over my head/hair full time totally changed the way primarily men, and women dealt with me. And so as to take it into a sociology discussion: I brought up in the beginning how I interviewed women for a documentary I was working on, who felt the need to shave their heads, and felt liberated doing so (not only because it feels good to not have all of that heavy hair on your head!). Why should these women have to do that to be left alone and respected my men? Yes, Why can't men just control themselves? What can we do in society to change that?
And why, when a woman shaves her head, especially as a feminist stance, why does a change in dress- pants, baggy clothing usually accompany this move? Why does removing the overtness of her sexuality feel liberating to her? And why on society do women, who decide to cover up, or shave their head, or dress more manly have to feel alienated if they reject looking like barbie dolls and flaunting their sexuality?
Both hijabi women and shaved head women told me that men started respecting them and their ideas more once they removed the overt sexual components of their dress or appearance. ["Ok, i'm following you, but how is hair 'overtly sexual'? I agree! But go asked the women who shaved their heads...] Why? Are men better able to focus on our minds when they are not distracted by the other things? That sucks! Men have to change themselves, not us.

But do they? So far, no. In the Quran it tells MEN to lower their gaze in the same sentence it tells women to. Ladies if a Muslim man flirts with you, you can flat out tell him he's out of bounds in his religion. Men are prohibited from flirting and making sexual advances at women outside of marriage. They have to cover most of their bodies, too. Men in the middle east actually cover from head to toe- in modesty. Wierd, you say. Some ppl think if women all dressed modest, then men would have to behave themselves. I know in Muslim communities, that's what I see. I'd like to hear from Amish women or women in puritan/covered communities, and see what they think.

I'm not making a statement that everyone should cover; but bringing up mine and other women's experiences, just pretend I'm a woman who shaved her head, and have proclaimed I will keep it so, even though I truly desire to let my hair flow [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img] ...and yes, the discussion about why do we have to cover up? Why don't guys just back off!? And what, really, are societal solutions we can come up with? Does walking naked in 'take back the night' marches on campuses work? (some groups do that...) What do you think?

martin dufresne

59 posts by men (32 by Cueball) against 46 by women. So much for heeding women's requests...


Do you really want to get into this? Because I'll bet if we look at some of the other threads in the feminism forum and count posts, we could find a few that you've dominated too.

Actually, never mind. This thread is over 100 posts (didn't notice before I posted this) so I'm going to close it.

[ 26 October 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]


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