Did Jesus die for our sins and did he arise from the dead?

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NorthReport
Did Jesus die for our sins and did he arise from the dead?

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NorthReport

Evolution of a messiah: The story behind Christianity’s founding trauma

The story we all know about Jesus' crucifixion has taken many forms over the years. Here's how it all began

http://www.salon.com/2014/11/30/evolution_of_a_messiah_the_story_behind_...

Ken Burch

It was all for MY sins...I had a LOT of overdue library books as a kid.

Sorry, "Jeez".

Slumberjack

The question is founded on a mythology similar to the one where Moses parted the Red Sea, allowing for hundreds of thousands of slaves to escape Egypt and the Pharaoh's soldiers.  Of course, if Ramesses II was the same Pharaoh that was spoken of in the Exodus account, as it has been reinforced by Hollywood narratives, then the newly delivered slaves would have proceeded through an opening in the sea, only to find themselves in Egyptian territory on the other side, which was likely garrisoned with the Pharaoh's soldiers as well.  The Jesus story, along with the account of Moses, and previous to that, the tall tale of the Babylonian, Abram of Ur, rank among the most destructive frauds to have ever been perpetuated by humanity upon itself.  If there is a hell, then the authors of these genocidal yarns deserve a special place there, right alongside the author of Mein Kampf, and for my money, the author of the Wealth of Nations.

6079_Smith_W

Though if it was a similar fiction used to forward a cause we support (and there are plenty) it would be seen for the masterful PR stunt that it is.

The exodus is an even stronger example, because not only is there no archaeological record of any captivity, the most likely source is from the Hyksos, who were not slaves, but rulers of the northern kingdom.

Slumberjack

6079_Smith_W wrote:
Though if it was a similar fiction used to forward a cause we support (and there are plenty) it would be seen for the masterful PR stunt that it is.

You don't say.

Caissa

I thought when I saw this topic I was over at Ship of Fools.

http://www.ship-of-fools.com/

Slumberjack

It all sounds like revised talking points for theologians.

Caissa

It has a ver vibrant community. Its moderating rules and the provision of "Hell" are certainly worth looking at.

Unionist

Ken Burch wrote:

It was all for MY sins...I had a LOT of overdue library books as a kid.

If He died for your books, but then rose again, does that mean you have to return them now?

 

KenS

No.

Caissa

 There is a Big Bang Theory episode where the character of Howard Wolowitz who is Jewish is in a RC Church with Sheldons' mother, Raj, Penny and Leonard. Upon seeing a crucifix he tells Raj that  "that's the last Jew who did pushups."

Unionist

Caissa wrote:

 There is a Big Bang Theory episode where the character of Howard Wolowitz who is Jewish is in a RC Church with Sheldons' mother, Raj, Penny and Leonard. Upon seeing a crucifix he tells Raj that  "that's the last Jew who did pushups."

Cute - but wrong. In fact, I did [url=http://www.montrealgazette.com/life/Casual+Dining+price+right+Pushap/736...'s[/url] just last week.

Unionist

dp

6079_Smith_W

Caissa wrote:

I thought when I saw this topic I was over at Ship of Fools.

http://www.ship-of-fools.com/

I thought it was another spambot until I saw the name.

(edit)

Also, it bears remembering that although this seems like a well-planned scam, there were (and are) a wide variety of interpretations of the story. The Mark gospel originally had no magical account of him rising from the dead. That was tacked on much later. As well, some saw him as divine, some not. Some considered him the eternal son of god or an aspect of god; some considered him the created or adopted son of god. 

And the fact is that the current prevailing story has more to do with the writings of Paul than any of the four gospels, and much of the mythology was cobbled together in the past milllennium, not at the time of the early church. The Jesus character (whether he was a real person or not) never told anyone to worship him, or to build a church to him.

 

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Here's a book with an interesting take on the issue (ie: Paul vs James et al):

 

http://www.amazon.ca/Jesus-Became-Christian-Barrie-Wilson/dp/0312361890

Caissa

[email protected] Unionist.

Smith's comments are well-established and discussed in the more left-wing Christian circles.

I have been meaning to read the book Timebandit has provided a link for.

 

NorthReport

Hamilton family left corpse upstairs for six months expecting resurrection

When neighbours asked about her husband, curious about the 52-year-old man's seeming disappearance, Kaling Wald would tell them he was “in God's hands now.”

 

sherpa-finn

Geez, I did not see the memo, but it must be Mythology Week @ Babble .... as we now move on from The Thanksgiving Story to Bible class. In which .... 

Slumberjack wrote: The question is founded on a mythology similar to the one where Moses parted the Red Sea, allowing for hundreds of thousands of slaves to escape Egypt and the Pharaoh's soldiers.  Of course, if Ramesses II was the same Pharaoh that was spoken of in the Exodus account, as it has been reinforced by Hollywood narratives, then the newly delivered slaves would have proceeded through an opening in the sea, only to find themselves in Egyptian territory on the other side, which was likely garrisoned with the Pharaoh's soldiers as well.  

Of all the many questions around the Exodus story, this is one that actually has a viable explanation, according to those folks who study such matters. The prevailing thinking within the Biblical archaelogical community (as distinct from the born-again crowd)  is that the famed crossing was not of the Red Sea but of the Gulf of Aqaba. This would in fact take the Israelites out of Egyptiancontrolled  territory into the proverbial 'Wilderness".  

And for what its worth, the Pharaoh at this time was not a Rameses. But some other dude.  (ETA: Just went back and googled it: Pharaoh Thutmose II or III - opinions vary.)  

Now starting to wonder if I am spending too much time watching the History Channel. (But eagerly await threads on unicorns, progressive Liberals and other mythical creatures.)

 

 

Caissa

The new Exodus movie. Will God be a long to approve it or should be expect a visit from Satan?Wink

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-8YsulfxVI

Unionist

"I came to tell you that something is coming that is far beyond you and I." (around 1:50)

Ridley Scott's Moses can't even handle the accusative case? Hope they do a grammar check before the release date.

Caissa

They used Google Translator.

Unionist

Caissa wrote:

They used Google Translator.

Ok, that made me laugh.

 

Caissa

That was its purpose. Wink

KenS

Caissa wrote:

The new Exodus movie. Will God be a long to approve it or should be expect a visit from Satan?Wink

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-8YsulfxVI 

If Satan's plan is that bad art will drive a stake into the heart of the beast.... well, lets just say he needs a new brain trust.

Maysie Maysie's picture
Unionist

Jesus died for safer streets and mass transit.

[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw3eP2JPFIY]I will survive[/url]

6079_Smith_W

Well if we are going there, here is the best example I can think of both of them showing up in the same work (the 2005 tv miniseries, there are plenty more adaptations). And Satan gets all the magic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMlJr4kZeaI

"I am part of that force which wills forever evil and works forever good"

quizzical

only the very weak minded would believe such a thing. it just gives them impunity to "sin" in their own minds and feel good about it. *read sin here as hurting others.

6079_Smith_W

Well said, quizzical.

And in fact, that is probably an even bigger bamboozle on the part of the god-botherers.

The original word - hamartano - was an archery term meaning to miss the mark. In other words, one could try to do good, and still fall short in some way.

It was Augustine who turned it into "a hardened heart, a loss of love for God, a disposition of the heart to depart from God because of inordinate self-love".

Though Paul's "wages of sin is death" certainly set the course.

 

 

 

abnormal

Slumberjack wrote:

The question is founded on a mythology similar to the one where Moses parted the Red Sea, allowing for hundreds of thousands of slaves to escape Egypt and the Pharaoh's soldiers.  

As a "minor" observation, there is no historical record of the Egyptians enslaving the Jews.  The closest we come is a statement that the Egyptians enslaved "Asians" but there is no definition of that term.  And it definitely doesn't qualify as the Egyptians enslaving an entire "people".

Aristotleded24

[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1RuyPAIwK8]Jesus didn't die for your sins: Bishop John Shelby Spong[/url]

Glenl

Aristotleded24 wrote:

[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1RuyPAIwK8]Jesus didn't die for your sins: Bishop John Shelby Spong[/url]

I'm an atheist but I would go to this guys church.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

I don't know if he conducts services anymore, but someone he works closely with - Rev. Gretta Vosper in Toronto - does.  She's an out atheist in the pulpit and she's nothing short of amazing.  So if you're in the vicinity, it's work checking out.  :)

http://www.westhill.net/

 

NorthReport

Yea, he's kewl!