Space: What's out there II

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Catchfire Catchfire's picture
Space: What's out there II

Continued from here.

Stephen Hawking: There's probably alien life out there somewhere, but we probably don't want to meet them.

Quote:
Has Stephen Hawking been rewatching his box set of the Alien movies?

It would appear so, as his opinion of whether we should make contact with any alien life forms we discover in the future has suddenly hardened. According to a new documentary series he has made for the Discovery Channel : "If aliens visit us, the outcome would be much as when Columbus landed in America, which didn't turn out well for the Native Americans."

Hawking believes we would be well-advised to keep the volume down on our intergalactic chatter and do all we can to prevent any "nomadic" aliens moseying our way to take a look-see. Should they find us here tucked away in the inner reaches of the solar system, chances are they'd zap us all and pillage any resources they could get their hands on. Our own history, says Hawking, proves that first encounters very rarely begin: "Do take a seat. I'll pop the kettle on. Milk? Sugar?"

"Such advanced aliens would perhaps become nomads, looking to conquer and colonise whatever planets they can reach," says the theoretical physicist in Into the Universe with Stephen Hawking. "To my mathematical brain, the numbers alone make thinking about aliens perfectly rational. The real challenge is to work out what aliens might actually be like."

Caissa

Can they be linked?

NASA has reported a major delay in what was to be its last shuttle mission - a trip by Endeavour to deliver a particle detector to the International Space Station.

Science teams announced earlier this week they want to replace the magnet in the Alpha Magnetic Spectrometer that was to be transported to the station in late July so it can operate longer in orbit.

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2010/04/23/tech-nasa-shuttle-delay.html#ixzz0mET4lw1r

 

Fidel

Gerrard Winstanley once talked to the King of England about the oppressive living conditions of the peasants while the monarchy spent money with wild abandon on warring with France and Spain. Winstanley said to the king that if living conditions for the peasants didn't improve that they would not object to occupation by a foreign military.

Could it be that the billionaire ruling class running things would not want their power and sense of supremacy usurping by strangers with a different point of view of things in general?  Are the creme de la creme afraid to admit to the fact that they are not really masters of the universe? Our supreme beings on earth are living pretty well as things stand now.

Papal Bull

Caissa wrote:

Can they be linked?

NASA has reported a major delay in what was to be its last shuttle mission - a trip by Endeavour to deliver a particle detector to the International Space Station.

Science teams announced earlier this week they want to replace the magnet in the Alpha Magnetic Spectrometer that was to be transported to the station in late July so it can operate longer in orbit.

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2010/04/23/tech-nasa-shuttle-delay.html#ixzz0mET4lw1r

 

 

THANK GOD THAT HAPPENED. I am planning a road trip with another space geek friend of mine, hopefully we'll be able to see the last STS mission launch!

Fidel

Catchfire wrote:
Stephen Hawking: There's probably alien life out there somewhere, but we probably don't want to meet them.

Quote:
In response to Hawking's comments, Greer told AOL News he found it "unfortunate that Stephen Hawking has added his voice to a growing chorus of xenophobia and fear regarding what he terms 'aliens.'" Greer went on to say:
As a scientist, he should know better: Any interstellar civilization would possess such technologies that the meager resources of Earth would be unneeded. If you can travel faster than the speed of light, you can manifest what is needed. Period. Moreover, if they were hostile, since ETs are already visiting Earth (see www.DisclosureProject.org) this would have been made crystal clear when we detonated the first atomic weapon in 1945. To date, no place on Earth has been invaded or attacked or colonized.

And if they can travel at the speed of light, why not the speed of thought, too? Freeman Dyson wrote that if the Kardashev scale of advanced civilizations based on increasing energy consumption is true, then we will become type I in a hundred years or so. After that type II is only 3200 years or so away given a modest growth rate of one percent a year. Type III civilizations would be out of this world and comparable to Star Trek sci-fi, or is it Star Wars level of technical capabilities? Kardashev estimated type III status might only represent 5800 years of technological advancement after that. Type IIIs have the technical capability to harness the energy of galaxy, as incredible as that sounds. According to Michio Kaku, evolution and technological advancement are only a matter of time.

I tend to agree with Stephen Greer. If they are that advanced, then they likely need nothing from us. Carl Sagan once described the difference between us and a theoretical civilization one million years more technologically advanced as how we perceive macaque monkeys. What do we have in common really? What can we learn from macaques other than to study them and their environment? Scientists suggest that the rest of us non-scientists simply follow the rule of live and let live. Do no harm.

Perhaps discovery [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y15NnGZIBuM]will happen something like this[/url] (YouTube)

peterjcassidy peterjcassidy's picture

Fidel wrote:

Catchfire wrote:
Stephen Hawking: There's probably alien life out there somewhere, but we probably don't want to meet them.

. Carl Sagan once described the difference between us and a theoretical civilization one million years more technologically advanced as how we perceive macaque monkeys. What do we have in common really? What can we learn from macaques other than to study them and their environment? Scientists suggest that the rest of us non-scientists simply follow the rule of live and let live. Do no harm.

 

The rhesus monkey has been widely used in medical and other scientific experiments; the Rh blood factor, found in humans as well as monkeys, is named for it.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Afghanistan.aspx

Fidel

Alright? So they come and take a few dna samples, figure out that we're not remotely related. Or maybe we are distantly related through some kind of panspermian exogenesis connection.  Theoretical ET of a type III or even IV technological advancement has not only solved the issue of travel at speed of light and energy requirements, perhaps they've also found the solution to their own longevity through genetic engineering. Our own scientists are saying it should be possible for us some day in the future. This period we are living in now will someday be referred to as pre-genetic engineering or Pre-GE, a kind of technological dark age compared with medical science of the future.

Fidel

[url=http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sciencetoday/2010/0429/1224269273438... our ignorance of the dark universe doesn't matter[/url]

Quote:
“Dark matter is likely to be made of a variety of particles, which will illuminate some of the great mysteries in science – as well as why most ordinary matter is not radioactive and why time always runs forward"

George Victor

Hell, given enough time, Homo sapien screws up no matter what.

Fidel

This is James Trefil's rundown of [url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/12/AR201004... Little Book of String Theory[/url] by Steven Gubser

Quote:
Princeton theoretical physicist Steven S. Gubser opens "The Little Book of String Theory" with a simple -- and highly accurate -- sentence: "String theory is a mystery." You won't get very far into this excellent book before you'll be agreeing with him completely.

Some background: In the 19th century we learned that all matter is made from atoms. In the 20th century we learned that the particles in the nuclei of those atoms -- mistakenly called "elementary particles" at first -- are made up of things more elementary still, called quarks. String theory is an attempt to peel the next layer from this onion. In this picture, the fundamental objects that make up all matter are microscopic vibrating strings. The strings make the quarks that make the particles that make . . . . You get the picture.

Sounds simple enough, but Gubser hasn't gotten more than three pages into his book before he drops the other shoe. Turns out that, depending on which version of the theory you want to use, these strings vibrate in either 10 or 26 dimensions. From there on we're off and running into what has to be the most bizarre and abstract area of modern science, the place where the frontier becomes really wild.

Got it? Good. Because I don't.

NDPP

Hawking Warning About Bad Aliens Prompts Defense by Their Biggest Canadian Fan

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/hawking-warning-about-bad-...

"Former federal defence minister Paul Hellyer, 86, believes not only that aliens have visited Earth but also that they have contributed greatly to human advances.."

 

Fidel

What if? What if [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farewell_to_the_Master]this short sci-fi story[/url] really happened? Apparently X-file types and some ufologists believe it was an historical event that was kept under wraps. They refer to the 1950's Hollywood version though, and it was entitled, The Day the Earth Stood Still. Imagine, as the last comment in the wiki articles states,  that Klaatu is not who he appears to be, and neither is Gnut/Gort. Shocking!

Fidel

Stephen Hawking eh?  [url=http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/technology/science/looking-for-alien... for aliens in all the wrong places[/url] Are they among us? Have David Fairn and Paul Davies been assmililated already?

 It's one of the "things" that bothers me about our own evolution. We didn't start out at the top of the food chain. We had few natural characteristics that made us fiersome predators. No sharp talons, like many dinosaurs had. We had no razor sharp fangs for tearing flesh and crunching bones, like big cats or whatever it was that lived to eventually produce hyenas. We couldn't run very fast to chase down dinner or posesss strength enough to take down very many prey as big or bigger than ourselves. The odds that we would evolve to become leaders of the pack must have been somewhat remote. 

I wonder what other advanced and "highly successful" life forms might be like? Would some alien species be capable of taking over our governments without a power struggle? Would they thrive under increased atmospheric conditions of CO2 and GHGs closer to that of global warming ten or 20 years from now? And, I've always wondered where in the heck sci-fi writers get their material from? I've often thought that they must be on something.

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuopJYLBvrI]Cordyceps Fungus - The mind-control Killer-Fungi[/url] Youtube

 

Quote:
John Carpenter's, "The Thing" VO Narration- "Who knows what has come from the galaxy? Who knows what lurks in the sky? Beyond God. Watch those around you. For who knows what today, tonight, or tomorrow will bring."

Spectrum Spectrum's picture

Solar Dynamics Observatory

SpaceCraft

  • The total mass of SDO at launch was 3000 kg (6620 lb); instruments 300 kg (660 lb), spacecraft 1300 kg (2870 lb), and fuel 1400 kg (3090 lb).
  • Its overall length along the sun-pointing axis is 4.5 m, and each side is 2.22 m.
  • The span of the extended solar panels is 6.25 m.
  • Total available power is 1500 W from 6.6 m2 of solar arrays operating at an efficiency of 16%
  • The high-gain antennas rotate once each orbit to follow the Earth.

***

April 21, 2010: Warning, the images you are about to see could take your breath away.
At a press conference today in Washington DC, researchers unveiled "First Light" images from NASA's Solar Dynamics Observatory, a space telescope designed to study the sun.

"SDO is working beautifully," reports project scientist Dean Pesnell of the Goddard Space Flight Center. "This is even better than we could have dreamed."

Launched on February 11th from Cape Canaveral, the observatory has spent the past two months moving into a geosynchronous orbit and activating its instruments. As soon as SDO's telescope doors opened, the spacecraft began beaming back scenes so beautiful and puzzlingly complex that even seasoned observers were stunned.

Source for story here

***

NASA's New Eye on the Sun Delivers Stunning First Images
04.21.10

View related briefing materials here.

NASA's recently launched Solar Dynamics Observatory, or SDO, is returning early images that confirm an unprecedented new capability for scientists to better understand our sun’s dynamic processes. These solar activities affect everything on Earth.

Some of the images from the spacecraft show never-before-seen detail of material streaming outward and away from sunspots. Others show extreme close-ups of activity on the sun’s surface. The spacecraft also has made the first high-resolution measurements of solar flares in a broad range of extreme ultraviolet wavelengths.

"These initial images show a dynamic sun that I had never seen in more than 40 years of solar research,” said Richard Fisher, director of the Heliophysics Division at NASA Headquarters in Washington. "SDO will change our understanding of the sun and its processes, which affect our lives and society. This mission will have a huge impact on science, similar to the impact of the Hubble Space Telescope on modern astrophysics.”

 NASA
(From NASA:) A full-disk multiwavelength extreme ultraviolet image of the sun taken by SDO on March 30, 2010. False colors trace different gas temperatures. Reds are relatively cool (about 60,000 Kelvin, or 107,540 F); blues and greens are hotter (greater than 1 million Kelvin, or 1,799,540 F). Credit: NASA

Source of Picture is taken from here

Spectrum Spectrum's picture

Intelligent Life in the Universe?

While Drake's equation is a good basis for systematic investigations of signals from extraterrestrial intelligences, I care little about the admittedly scarce possibility that we ever receive positive news from our SETI searches. I care more about the fact that, if we consider the whole universe instead than restricting to our small galaxy, and if we omit to require that other civilizations exist at present (whatever this means over billion-light-year distance scales), the probability becomes a certainty.Tommaso Dorigo

I was over at Tommaso Dorigo's Blog, Quantum Diaries Survivor" reading his take on Extraterrestrials: A Dime A Dozen and the opening with Stephen Hawkings Lecture. I cut out the section of my interest as well to see what Dr. Hawking was talking about, besides reading Tommaso's take.

Qualitatively, I have come to realize,  given the framework for consideration of such possibilities,  these equations mean an inductive/deductive self evident constraint  how are we ever to consider the possibility( You have to give yourself permission to entertain).

I mean can we ever know the framework of that Extraterrestrial Intelligence given the parameters for our own belief structures? We do not even know what is possible "not having the framework" to properly question how this can be so?

So what I found in Dr.Hawkings lecture was the generalities of consensus across the industry of science and no new ways in which to possibly perceive the" right questions concerning the framework for possible new intelligences" that we would perceive as Extraterrestrials.

***

NASA's 50th Anniversary Lecture By Professor Stephen Hawking

...........DR. HAWKING: What will we find when we go into space? Is there alien life out there, or are we alone in the universe?


We believe that life arose spontaneously on the Earth. So it must be possible for life to appear on othersuitable planets, of which there seem to be a large number in the galaxy.


But we don't know how life first appeared. The probability of something as complicated as a DNA molecule being formed by random collisions of atoms in ocean is incredibly small. However, there might have been some simpler macro molecule which can build up the DNA or some other macro molecule capable of reproducing itself. Still, even if the probability of life appearing on a suitable planet is very small, since the universe is infinite, life would have appeared somewhere. If the probability is very low, the distance between two independent occurrences of life would be very large.


However, there is a possibility known as panspermia that life could spread from planet to planet or from stellar system to stellar system carried on meteors. We know that Earth has been hit by meteors that came from Mars, and others may have come from further afield. We have no evidence that any meteors carried life, but it remains a possibility.



An important feature of life spread by panspermia is that it would have the same basis which would be DNA for life in the neighborhood of the Earth.On the other hand, an independent occurrence of life would be extremely unlikely to be DNA based. So watch out if you meet an alien. You could be infected with a disease against which you have no resistance.

One piece of observational evidence on the probability of life appearing is that we have fossils from 3.5 billion years ago. The Earth was formed 4.6 billion years ago and was probably too hot for about the first half billion years. So life appeared on Earth within half-a-billion years of it being possible, which is short compared to the 10-billion-year lifetime of an Earth-like planet.


This would suggest either panspermia or that the probability of life appearing independently is reasonably high. If it was very low, one would have expected it to take most of the 10 billion years available. If it is panspermia, any life in the solar system or in nearby stellar systems will also be DNA based.


While there may be primitive life in another region of the galaxy, there don't seem to be any advanced intelligent beings. We don't appear to have been visited by aliens. I am discounting reports of UFOs. Why would they appear only to cranks and weirdos?


[Laughter.]


DR. HAWKING: If there is a government conspiracy to suppress the reports and keep for itself the scientific knowledge the aliens bring, it seems to have been a singularly ineffective policy so far.


Furthermore, despite an extensive search by the SETI project, we haven't heard any alien television quiz shows. This probably indicates that there are no alien civilizations at our stage of development within the radius of a few hundred lightyears. Issuing an insurance policy against abduction by aliens seems a pretty safe bet.


Why haven't we heard from anyone out there? One view is expressed in this Calvin cartoon. The caption reads: "Sometimes I think that the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."


More seriously, there could be three possible explanations of why we haven't heard from aliens. First, it may be that the probability of primitive life appearing on a suitable planet is very low.


Second, the probability of primitive life appearing may be reasonably high, but the probability of that life developing intelligence like ours may be very low. Just because evolution led to intelligence in our case, we shouldn't assume that intelligence is an inevitable consequence of Darwinian natural selection.


It is not clear that intelligence confers a long-term survival advantage. Bacteria and insects will survive quite happily even if our so-called intelligence leads us to destroy ourselves.


This is the third possibility. Life appears and in some cases develops into intelligent beings, but when it reaches a stage of sending radio signals, it will also have the technology to make nuclear bombs and other weapons of mass destruction. It will, therefore, be in danger of destroying itself before long.


Let's hope this is not the reason we have not heard from anyone. Personally, I favor the second possibility that primitive life is relatively common, but that intelligent life is very rare. Some would say it has yet to occur on Earth.


[Laughter.]


DR. HAWKING: Can we exist for a long time away from the Earth? Our experience with the ISS, the International Space Station, shows that it is possible for human beings to survive for many months away from Planet Earth. However, the zero gravity aboard it causes a number of undesirable physiological changes and weakening of the bones, as well as creating practical problems with liquids, et cetera.



One would, therefore, want any long-term base for human beings to be on a planet or moon. By digging into the surface, one would get thermal insulation and protection from meteors and cosmic rays. The planet or moon could also serve as a source of the raw materials that would be needed if the extraterrestrial community was to be self-sustaining independently of Earth.

 

What are the possible sites of a human colony in the solar system? The most obvious is the Moon. It is close by and relatively easy to reach. We have already landed on it and driven across it in a buggy.


On the other hand, the Moon is small and without atmosphere or a magnetic field to deflect the solar radiation particles, like on Earth. There is no liquid water, but there may be ice in the craters at the north and south poles. A colony on the Moon could use this as a source of oxygen with power provided by nuclear energy or solar panels. The Moon could be a base for travel to the rest of the solar system.



Mars is the obvious next target. It is half as far, again, as the Earth from the Sun and so receives half the warmth. It once had a magnetic field, but it decayed 4 billion years ago, leaving Mars without protection from solar radiation. It stripped Mars of most of its atmosphere, leaving it with only 1 percent of the pressure of the Earth's atmosphere.

However, the pressure must have been higher in the past because we see what appear to be runoff channels and dried-up lakes. Liquid water cannot exist on Mars now.


It would vaporize in the near-vacuum. This suggests that Mars had a warm wet period during which life might have appeared either spontaneously or through panspermia. There is no sign of life on Mars now, but if we found evidence that life


once existed, it would indicate that the probability of life developing on a suitable planet was fairly high.


NASA has sent a large number of spacecraft to Mars, starting with Mariner 4 in 1964. It has surveyed the planet with a number of orbiters, the latest being the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter. These orbiters have revealed deep gullies and the highest mountains in the solar system.


NASA has also landed a number of probes on the surface of Mars, most recently the two Mars Rovers. These have sent back pictures of a dry desert landscape. However, there is a large quantity of water in the form of ice in the polar regions. A colony on Mars could use this as a source of oxygen.


There has been volcanic activity on Mars. This would have brought minerals and metals to the surface which a colony could use.


The Moon and Mars are the most suitable sites for space colonies in the solar system. Mercury and Venus are too hot, while Jupiter and Saturn are gas giants with no solid surface.



The moons of Mars are very small and have no advantages over Mars itself.

Some of the moons of Jupiter and Saturn might be possible. In particular, Titan, a moon of Saturn, is larger and more massive than other moons and has a dense atmosphere.



The Cassini-Huygens Mission of NASA and ESA has landed a probe on Titan which has sent back pictures of the surface. However, it is very cold, being so far from the sun, and I wouldn't fancy living next to a lake of liquid methane.



What about beyond the solar system? Our observations indicate that a significant fraction of stars have planets around them. So far, we can detect only giant planets like Jupiter and Saturn, but it is reasonable to assume that they will be accompanied by smaller Earth-like planets. Some of these will lay in the [inaudible] zone where the distance from the stars is the right range for liquid water to exist on their surface.

There are around a thousand stars within 30 lightyears of Earth. If 1 percent of each had Earth-size planets in the [inaudible] zone, we would have 10 candidate new worlds. We can revisit it with current technology, but we should make interstellar a long-term aim. By long term, I mean over the next 200 to 500 years. The human race has existed as a separate species for about 2 million years.


Civilization began about 10,000 years ago, and the rate of development has been steadily increasing.


If the human race is to continue for another million years, we will have to boldly go where no one has gone before.


Fidel

Thanks Spectrum.

Stephen Hawking wrote:
While there may be primitive life in another region of the galaxy, there don't seem to be any advanced intelligent beings. We don't appear to have been visited by aliens. I am discounting reports of UFOs. Why would they appear only to cranks and weirdos?  [Laughter.]

If weirdos include Apollo astronauts, airline pilots, RCMP officers, and US presidents, then we're in trouble for sure.

DR. HAWKING: wrote:
If there is a government conspiracy to suppress the reports and keep for itself the scientific knowledge the aliens bring, it seems to have been a singularly ineffective policy so far.

I agree with Ed Mitchell on this question. The coverup since 1947 has been largely ineffective. Information about UFOs has been leaked to the public for decades. It's not a secret anymore.

DR. HAWKING wrote:
Furthermore, despite an extensive search by the SETI project, we haven't heard any alien television quiz shows. This probably indicates that there are no alien civilizations at our stage of development within the radius of a few hundred lightyears. Issuing an insurance policy against abduction by aliens seems a pretty safe bet

But Dr Kaku likens SETI's search of radio spectrum at or near the frequencies of hydrogen to a drunk who's lost his keys at night in the street. He chooses to look only near the lamp post where it's illuminated. The lost keys could be anywhere else in the darkened street.

And we've been a technically advanced civilization for a few hundred years. Broadcast radio and TV and spaceships have been our advanced technologies for merely a few decades - a very tiny slice of time in the larger unversal scheme of things. And now the ten thousand watt blowtorch radio stations and analog TV broadcasts are giving way to digital over analog, fibre and cable transmissions. At some point when over the air TV and radio broadcasts are fully digitized over fiber trunklines, the noise emitted by our own doing will have mostly stopped. That leaves a very tiny time window of wide broadcast era for aliens to have tuned in to planet earth. Our planet will become relatively quiet before long.

I think Arthur Clarke received better scientific advice on his 2001: A Space Odyssey, sci-fi novel. Scientists suggested to Clarke that advanced civilizations probably wouldnt be listening to radio waves from space for a superimposed  message from beyond the solar system. They would likely send out self-replicating "von Neumann probes", and perhaps even construct monoliths on planetary moons for perhaps a type I or II civilization to discover. Upon discovery of the monolith, the type III or IV civilization(according to Kardashev's and Dyson's estimates) would then become aware of the newly evolving civilization from afar, and perhaps even have something important to say to them at that point in time.

Carl Sagan said that an advanced civilization one-million years old would be as incomprehensible to us as we are comparable to macaque monkeys. What would they have to say to us at this point in human evolution?

Spectrum Spectrum's picture

Quote:
The net result is that the meager N=2.1 becomes over 20 trillions! This means that there are presently 20 trillion civilizations around. 20 trillions. Okay, we might have dropped or added one factor of a hundred too many here or there, but the number is still enormous, no escape!

Is that not a sobering thought ? To me, that is both awesome and saddening. As far as awe is concerned, of course there is no need to explain it. But there is sadness too: for imagine the incredible, unfathomable number of things that we will never be able to know, constrained in our tiny planet, during our insignificant lives. Masterpieces, inventions, acts of bravery, adventures. But also wars, atrocities, catastrophes. The history of the universe will never be written - but it would be quite a read, I am sure.Tommaso Dorigo

Hi Fidel, My point, given the parameters of any way in which to engage such a discussion may not be relevant to what we can conclude having meet a Extraterrestrial Intelligence. Tommaso used the Drake Equation and expanded the probability by "increasing the parameters?"

Also given the parameters of what we know how can we even formulate the right question about it's existence. Any attempt to do so is "a guess by best estimates" so if one wanted to add their take, it is just as easily feasible to think about their statements? What do you think?

I mean we want to be responsible citizens about the context of the question, then how in such responsibility can this question be framed? I believe Drake thought of it in this way.

So I will give you a fictional scenario to contemplate. A different take on Cleopatra?

 

Quote:

A Correlation in Perception

James Cameron's AVATAR

This post will indeed seem quite odd. But as I told Phil I wanted to explain a principal behind all the language I used here as if it would appear to another if we assume another perspective.


James Cameron's AVATAR

 

Now we know how some of us who go the the extreme in science  like to think the basis of what we explain as a fictional story is correlative in the context of what we relay,  knows there is science that is factually represented to unfold.

 

Temple of Hathor,Dendera

Quote:

Hathor , (Hwt Hr Egyptian for Horus's enclosure)[1], was an Ancient Egyptian goddess who personified the principles of love, motherhood and joy.[2] She was one of the most important and popular deities throughout the history of Ancient Egypt. Hathor was worshiped by Royalty and common people alike in whose tombs she is depicted as “Mistress of the West” welcoming the dead into the next life.[3]. In other roles she was a goddess of music, dance, foreign lands and fertility who helped women in childbirth.[3]

So I have to present something in story like form as was presented in the latest movie Avatar. This is to spark a historical look back in our own history, so as to know that we existed in cohabitation with beings that hold the basis of a thought pattern,  that is the basis of this blog. See how quickly one can move?


Temple of Hathor, Dendera
(click on image and take note of columns)

 

You have to look very carefully now throughout these artifacts in architectural design as to understand something quite unique about the the times and what some of these statue faces actually represented. See how these images are denoted amongst the Gods and Goddesses to understand that images reveal something unique about what the Sun and Moon mean in relation to each other and who was the Mother of them.

.....................

I highlighted a statement about the basis of the blog I write.

Typing in "sound" in search feature might help one to get an idea on how it is I see science in concert with.  The way in which taking such a basis, as to see in another analogistic way. Gives one a way in which to see,  given a different parameter.

It may help one see the cosmos in the way we do our science. Questions about how we can see gravity.  Enclosing a parameter about which, the whole process we are involved is exemplified in such a way as to think about the very question of our articulations.  The topic of Intelligent extraterrestrial can mean in that context?

Fidel

Spectrum wrote:
Hi Fidel, My point, given the parameters of any way in which to engage such a discussion may not be relevant to what we can conclude having meet a Extraterrestrial Intelligence. Tommaso used the Drake Equation and expanded the probability by "increasing the parameters?"

Yes, a grand total of two technically advanced civilizations in the Milky Way is not very impressive and would seem highly improbable that the only other one would still exist in order for us to hook up with them at some point. And that's if they haven't destroyed themselves or are even paralleling our own rate of progress. It might take a while to locate them.

And Carl Sagan was a little more optimistic with his example of N~10. But Sagan also said about Drake's parameters, what if only one percent of civilizations were to survive their own technological adolescence? He said that would make parameter F sub big L not one-one-huundred millionth but simply 1/100. N then becomes approximately millions, if ALL advancing civilizations DO NOT ALWAYS destroy themselves. Sagan's seems like a reasonably logical statement to make, and I tend to favor it over that of Fermi's. Drake's equation can be thought of as an English sentence and the verb being equals to. And the sentence can be constructed in many, many different ways. And if I was a gambler and the wager could be collected on, I would bet high stakes that we are not alone in this galaxy.

Spectrum wrote:
Also given the parameters of what we know how can we even formulate the right question about it's existence. Any attempt to do so is "a guess by best estimates" so if one wanted to add their take, it is just as easily feasible to think about their statements? What do you think?

Very thoughtful and interesting question, and you know that I don't have a proper answer. But I can imagine that perhaps there are a number of civilizations that have been in communication with each other for some time. Perhaps it's a clique of advanced civilizations that only have interesting things to ask of and answer to one another. Perhaps they perceive what we have to say as baby talk, or perhaps they even think of our language and what we express with it as akin to a macaque with outstretched paws demanding a grape or banana or something. Perhaps it's as the more democratic of us here on earth think of third world developing countries. Malalai Joya has said to Canadians and Americans several times that we cannot donate democracy to the people of her country. Perhaps advanced civilizations feel similarly in that we must either tread water by ourselves or make way for another species here on earth to take over the path of evolution where we might fail some day. I don't know and truly wish that I could. Perhaps they feel we are a dead end in the Darwinian scheme of things and simply refuse to invest anything in communicating with us. Would we invite monkeys into our homes and places of work? Sign out a macaque from the local petting zoo for an hour or so on Fridays? Perhaps it would be a pointless exercise in zoological study for them. Perhaps they are able to appreciate mankind from afar and in their own way. Perhaps the crop circles, the ancient statues, massive stone structures and aerial sightings are to keep us guessing and wondering about the possibilities.

Spectrum Spectrum's picture

Hi Fidel,

 

Fidel wrote:
If weirdos include Apollo astronauts, airline pilots, RCMP officers, and US presidents, then we're in trouble for sure.

I was taken back by that statement too when you pointed this out in reference to Stephen's comments. Knowing the matter of fact of and all that was supplied as to the reasoning, was information, that had been around for a while and really had nothing new to offer except the same ole argumentative debates about credibility. Not that we dispense with it , but that we take seriously the efforts in order to question the existence of.

I mean let's say that if that extraterrestrial intelligence did not want you to identify the encounter, how would they mask it? In our everyday psychological make up, maybe, to have it appear that we were dreaming, and they supplied the "facets of imagery" to mask the experience? The face of the extraterrestrial while it's eyes may appear yellow may refer the experience to have an image of a bird(an owl let's say) superimposed over that experience to have the physical interaction falsified.

The extraterrestrials would have to know the general consensus of experience can be clouded by fact and not unsupportable facts of existence?

Quote:
Snowy Owl

This bird

  • has disks of stiff feathers around its eyes that reflect sound waves to its ear openings
  • must capture the equivalent of 7 to 12 mice a day to meet its food requirements
  • is active during the day as well as at night, unlike most owls
  • moves to sit on patches of snow or ice as the ground becomes bare with the approach of spring

  
Snowy Owl

SEE:Hinterland Who's Who

So you see, this is one way in which to approach the question, that may not have been looked at before.

Avatars, are a subject within themself. Raises question about the "inhabitant of the body we now exist in" and how such occupants can converse given that they are from different locations of the universe? You see? Let's say the extraterrestrials wanted to make a hybrid human form  from the alien form that could pass scrutiny and do their work as "busy worker bees?"

A lot of genetic engineering and false starts that take a long time to perfect. They have this offspring culture their building because of all the mistakes and have to form a new colony of the rejects?:) Maybe they have an extermination project to those that do not meet the human standard?

IN no way have I supplied an answer to the question about the existence of , only that given the understanding that such parameters of thinking had are limited in our discussion , and referred back to some scientific understanding, how could we really know , if you did not push the boundaries of thinking?

Fidel

Spectrum wrote:
I mean let's say that if that extraterrestrial intelligence did not want you to identify the encounter, how would they mask it? In our everyday psychological make up, maybe, to have it appear that we were dreaming, and they supplied the "facets of imagery" to mask the experience? The face of the extraterrestrial while it's eyes may appear yellow may refer the experience to have an image of a bird(an owl let's say) superimposed over that experience to have the physical interaction falsified.

The extraterrestrials would have to know the general consensus of experience can be clouded by fact and not unsupportable facts of existence?

Yes, and I tend to believe that it's possible they may come here not from tens of millions of light years distant galaxies, but possibly from other dimensions or parallel universes. Dr Michio Kaku says that ten years ago, such theories of other universes were scoffed at by mainstream scientists but no so today. Kaku remembers visiting a Japanese tea garden in San Jose when he was a boy. He remembers watching fish in a pond and thinking they only knew a two dimensional world of side to side, up and down within limits, and that the fish knew nothing of an entire world immediately above the level of the water. Some scientists believe today that we are the fish in that scenario, and that our universe is an inflationary bubble existing in what could be an ocean of universes and expanding all the time. I think that nay sayers tend to think of other possible civilizations as being no more than one or two hundred years more technically advanced than us. We find it difficult to imagine civilizations that are thousands and even millions of years more advanced. Perhaps they exist and have developed the technical means of a type III or even IV civilization according to Kardashev's theoretical civilizations. Perhaps they are able to leap bounds of distance, time, and even travel through multiverses and megaverses of reality, like the snowy owl is able to deceive competitors and other animals in nature. Perhaps we are the field mice unaware of our own surroundings as youve suggested. Thanks Spectrum. Really good post.

 

Spectrum Spectrum's picture

Quote:
"I’m a Platonist — a follower of Plato — who believes that one didn’t invent these sorts of things, that one discovers them. In a sense, all these mathematical facts are right there waiting to be discovered."Harold Scott Macdonald (H. S. M.) Coxeter

 

Polytope

Quote:
"...underwriting the form languages of ever more domains of mathematics is a set of deep patterns which not only offer access to a kind of ideality that Plato claimed to see the universe as created with in the Timaeus; more than this, the realm of Platonic forms is itself subsumed in this new set of design elements-- and their most general instances are not the regular solids, but crystallographic reflection groups. You know, those things the non-professionals call . . . kaleidoscopes! * (In the next exciting episode, we'll see how Derrida claims mathematics is the key to freeing us from 'logocentrism'-- then ask him why, then, he jettisoned the deepest structures of mathematical patterning just to make his name...)

* H. S. M. Coxeter, Regular Polytopes (New York: Dover, 1973) is the great classic text by a great creative force in this beautiful area of geometry (A polytope is an n-dimensional analog of a polygon or polyhedron. Chapter V of this book is entitled 'The Kaleidoscope'....)"

Spectrum Spectrum's picture

Quote:
The value of non-Euclidean geometry lies in its ability to liberate us from preconceived ideas in preparation for the time when exploration of physical laws might demand some geometry other than the Euclidean. Bernhard Riemann



Perspective of the Theoretical Scientist

 

Quote:
Hyperspace: A Scientific Odyssey

A look at the higher dimensions By Michio Kaku


"Why must art be clinically “realistic?” This Cubist “revolt against perspective” seized the fourth dimension because it touched the third dimension from all possible perspectives. Simply put, Cubist art embraced the fourth dimension. Picasso's paintings are a splendid example, showing a clear rejection of three dimensional perspective, with women's faces viewed simultaneously from several angles. Instead of a single point-of-view, Picasso's paintings show multiple perspectives, as if they were painted by a being from the fourth dimension, able to see all perspectives simultaneously. As art historian Linda Henderson has written, “the fourth dimension and non-Euclidean geometry emerge as among the most important themes unifying much of modern art and theory."

Posted by Plato at Thursday, March 24, 2005

Spectrum Spectrum's picture

Quote:
[url=http://www.geom.uiuc.edu/~banchoff/ISR/ISR.html]THOMAS BANCHOFF[/url] has been a professor of mathematics at Brown University in Providence, Rhode Island, since 1967. He has written two books and fifty articles on geometric topics, frequently incorporating interactive computer graphics techniques in the study of phenomena in the fourth and higher dimensions

Quote:
Long before the advent of the World-Wide Web, Tom Banchoff was experimenting with ways of using electronic media to enhance mathematical research and aid in mathematical education. Banchoff helped install one of the first mathematics computer labs in the country, and continues to lead the development of innovative geometric software and curricula for undergraduate mathematics courses. He uses computer graphics as an integral part of his own research, and has used mathematical videos for the last 30 years as a means of disseminating his results. See[url=http://www.math.brown.edu/~banchoff/abbott/]The life of Edwin Abbott Abbott[/url]

Spectrum Spectrum's picture

Quote:

You might think the loss of geometry like the loss of, say, Latin would pass virtually unnoticed. This is the thing about geometry: we no more notice it than we notice the curve of the earth. To most people, geometry is a grade school memory of fumbling with protractors and memorizing the Pythagorean theorem. Yet geometry is everywhere. Coxeter sees it in honeycombs, sun°owers, froth and sponges. It's in the molecules of our food (the spearmint molecule is the exact geometric reaction of the caraway molecule), and in the computer-designed curves of a Mercedes-Benz. Its loss would be immeasurable, especially to the cognoscenti at the Budapest conference, who forfeit the summer sun for the somnolent glow of an overhead projector. They credit Coxeter with rescuing an art form as important as poetry or opera. Without Coxeter's geometry as without Mozart's symphonies or Shakespeare's plays our culture, our understanding of the universe,would be incomplete.Donald Coxeter-The Man Who Saved Geometry

Fidel

So if ET does exist near other star systems, say, zeta reticula 1 and 2, and governments here are aware of them, then why would the feds want to keep it a secret? Because we've been told by skeptics that it is impossible for governments to keep secrets, and therefore, UFOs must not be real. At least, this is the line of reasoning they use, And they can typically be very clever and educated people who say these things.

Why would religious fanatics like Falwell and Robertson declare that UFOs are the work of satan? As far as I can tell, our governments and the people who influence them want us to believe that UFOs are either a hoax or the work of the devil. Someone's lying.

Fidel

[url=http://www.examiner.com/x-2363-UFO-Examiner~y2010m5d19-UFO-Traffic-Repor... Traffic Report:[/url] May 19, 2010

I think the newzies should carry regular ufo traffic reports along with tempsn'precip., local cloud cover, air quality alerts, US-style color-coded terrier alerts etc. Just sayin'

[url=http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/comments/aliens20100505/]Are aliens a threat?[/url] Kaku, Shostak and Aykroyd - a Larry King Live video part 1/3

 

Papal Bull

Fidel wrote:

[url=http://www.examiner.com/x-2363-UFO-Examiner~y2010m5d19-UFO-Traffic-Repor... Traffic Report:[/url] May 19, 2010

I think the newzies should carry regular ufo traffic reports along with tempsn'precip., local cloud cover, air quality alerts, US-style color-coded terrier alerts etc. Just sayin'

[url=http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/comments/aliens20100505/]Are aliens a threat?[/url] Kaku, Shostak and Aykroyd - a Larry King Live video part 1/3

 

I finally broke and got a credit card. The other day I was looking at the MUFON website and almost became a member. There, that is my terrible admission for the month.

 

And Fidel, I agree with you 100%. Local news should carry UFO reports and blurry videos all the time! I have been crushed by the lack of great paranormal things on the market lately. No more good tabloids at the super market...without them I have no idea who the Loch Ness monster is dating (is it Ogopogo or the Shagharbor thing?). Local news should pick up the slack and give me the ultimate in poor journalism. Sensationalist fluff pieces about UFOs and Big Foot sightings in the GTA area with blurry videos and horridly great interviews with MUFON field reporters, UFOlogists and the like.

 

As for the alien threat? I for one welcome our robot overlords.

Fidel

I agree with David Brin when he says that scientists should be consulted, and that this topic needs discussing at a high levels. Five years ago, we knew of no planets outside our solar system. Today about 500 have been identified. SETI has scanned the heck out of earth's neighbors within 100 light years. The galaxy though is a 100,000 light years across. They need to search elsewhere and using a lot more radio telescopes.

Pants-of-dog

Fidel wrote:

....Five years ago, we knew of no planets outside our solar system....

 

Just to nitpick: I believe the first exosolar planets were confirmed in 1992, and we had a fairly good idea that they were since the latter part of the nineteenth century.

 

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v355/n6356/abs/355145a0.html

Fidel

Well that's a good nit to pick.

Quote:
Their respective distances from the pulsar are 0.47 AU and 0.36 AU, and they move in almost circular orbits with periods of 98.2 and 66.6 days

I'm guessing that with solar orbits as short and as near the central star as they are, they will be hot gaseous masses as opposed to planets like this one.

Fidel

Spectrum wrote:
I mean we want to be responsible citizens about the context of the question, then how in such responsibility can this question be framed? I believe Drake thought of it in this way.

I was reading something on Canadian physicist Stanton Friedman's website. Friedman went to school with Carl Sagan and was friends with him. Friedman says of the Drake equation that the parameters should take into consideration the number of stars created per year. There are no parameters for possible explorations and colonizations by any number of advancing civilizations over time.

And there is no factoring for lifetime of a civilization. We are but one example among 100 billion stars in this galaxy alone. It's not a very accurate sample because: one, we have no idea how long our own civilization will survive, and two, we don't know how long it's possible for other civilizations to have survived thus far.

Zeta reticula 1&2, according to Friedman, are "just down the road" relatively speaking at 39 light years. And they are one-billion years older than our sun. Very interesting star system. And Friedman sounds a lot like Dr Kaku when it comes to naysayers suggesting that communicating and even travelling from there to here is wrought with physical impossibilities. Why would they even try to contact us - why aim a signal in our direction? Would they say, Here we are. What can we do for you, earthlings? It doesn't make sense. And receiving a message back 500 years later would make even less sense.

Friedman suggests, as Kaku does, that advanced space travel technology is only a matter of time. Today we are able to fly from east to west coast in a matter  of hours. Before passenger planes, people would have thought that intercontinental travel in a matter of hours was an absurd idea. And as Friedman says, there is work being down outside of academia all the time. Friedman himself did work on advanced space propulsion systems and nuclear technologies that just weren't discussed in academic circles for many years until now.

Spectrum Spectrum's picture

Fidel, I thought you might be interested on how some see space travel and how some of the factors of satellite travel have to take in consideration of Lagrangian.

Quote:
LTool

A "freeway" through the solar system resembling a vast array of virtual winding tunnels and conduits around the Sun and planets, as envisioned by an engineer at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), Pasadena, Calif., can slash the amount of fuel needed for future space missions. Called the Interplanetary Superhighway, the system was conceived by Martin Lo, whose software was used to help design the flight path for NASA's Genesis mission, which is currently using this "freeway in space" on its mission to collect solar wind particles for return to Earth. Most missions are designed to take advantage of the way gravity pulls on a spacecraft when it swings by a body such as a planet or moon. Lo's concept takes advantage of another factor, the Sun's pull on the planets or a planet's pull on its nearby moons. Forces from many directions nearly cancel each other out, leaving paths through the gravity fields in which spacecraft can travel. Each planet and moon has five locations in space called Lagrange points, where one body's gravity balances another's. Spacecraft can orbit there while burning very little fuel. To find the Interplanetary Superhighway, Lo mapped some possible flight paths among the Lagrange points, varying the distance the spacecraft would go and how fast or slow it would travel. Like threads twisted together to form a rope, the possible flight paths formed tubes in space. Lo plans to map out these tubes for the whole solar system. Lo's research is based on theoretical work begun in the late nineteenth century by the French mathematician Henri Poincare. In 1978, NASA's International Sun-Earth Explorer 3 was the first mission to use low energy orbits around a Lagrange point. Later, using low energy paths between Earth and the Moon, controllers at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md., sent the spacecraft to the first encounter with a comet, Comet Giacobini-Zinner, in 1985. In 1991, another method of analyzing low energy orbits was used by engineers from JPL and the Japanese Space Agency to enable the Japanese Hiten mission to reach the Moon. Inspired by this pioneering work and research conducted by scientists at the University of Barcelona, Lo conceived the theory of the Interplanetary Superhighway. Lo and his colleagues have turned the underlying mathematics of the Interplanetary Superhighway into a tool for mission design called "LTool," using models and algorithms developed at Purdue University, West Lafayette, Ind. The new LTool was used by JPL engineers to redesign the flight path for the Genesis mission to adapt to a change in launch dates. Genesis launched in August 2001. The flight path was designed for the spacecraft to leave Earth and travel to orbit the Lagrange point. After five loops around this Lagrange point, the spacecraft will fall out of orbit without any maneuvers and then pass by Earth to a Lagrange point on the opposite side of the planet. Finally, it will return to Earth's upper atmosphere to drop off its samples of solar wind in the Utah desert. "Genesis wouldn't need to use any fuel at all in a perfect world," Lo said. "But since we can't control the many variables that occur throughout the mission, we have to make some corrections as Genesis completes its loops around a Lagrange point of Earth. The savings on the fuel translates into a better and cheaper mission." Lo added, "This concept does not guarantee easy access to every part of the solar system. However, I can envision a place where we might construct and service science platforms around one of the Moon's Lagrange points. Since Lagrange points are landmarks for the Interplanetary Superhighway, we might be able to shunt spacecraft to and from such platforms." A team at NASA's Johnson Space Center, Houston, working with the NASA Exploration Team, proposes to someday use the Interplanetary Superhighway for future human space missions. "Lo's work has led to breakthroughs in simplifying mission concepts for human and robotic exploration beyond low-Earth orbit," said Doug Cooke, manager of Johnson's Advanced Development Office. "These simplifications result in fewer space vehicles needed for a broad range of mission options." The work on the Interplanetary Superhighway for space mission design was nominated for a Discover Innovation Award by Discover magazine editors and an outside panel of experts. JPL is managed for NASA by the California Institute of Technology, Pasadena. For more information on the Genesis mission, visit the Internet at:

">http://www.genesismission.org

Spectrum Spectrum's picture

Interplanetary Transport Network

Quote:

This stylized depiction of the ITN is designed to show its (often convoluted) path through the solar system. The green ribbon represents one path from among the many that are mathematically possible along the surface of the darker green bounding tube. Locations where the ribbon changes direction abruptly represent trajectory changes at Lagrange points, while constricted areas represent locations where objects linger in temporary orbit around a point before continuing on

This book describes a revolutionary new approach to determining low energy routes for spacecraft and comets by exploiting regions in space where motion is very sensitive (or chaotic). It also represents an ideal introductory text to celestial mechanics, dynamical systems, and dynamical astronomy. Bringing together wide-ranging research by others with his own original work, much of it new or previously unpublished, Edward Belbruno argues that regions supporting chaotic motions, termed weak stability boundaries, can be estimated. Although controversial until quite recently, this method was in fact first applied in 1991, when Belbruno used a new route developed from this theory to get a stray Japanese satellite back on course to the moon. This application provided a major verification of his theory, representing the first application of chaos to space travel.

Since that time, the theory has been used in other space missions, and NASA is implementing new applications under Belbruno's direction. The use of invariant manifolds to find low energy orbits is another method here addressed. Recent work on estimating weak stability boundaries and related regions has also given mathematical insight into chaotic motion in the three-body problem. Belbruno further considers different capture and escape mechanisms, and resonance transitions.

Providing a rigorous theoretical framework that incorporates both recent developments such as Aubrey-Mather theory and established fundamentals like Kolmogorov-Arnold-Moser theory, this book represents an indispensable resource for graduate students and researchers in the disciplines concerned as well as practitioners in fields such as aerospace engineering.

See:Interplanetary Superhighway Makes Space Travel Simpler

Fidel

Very interesting, Spectrum. It will take me some time to read through, and I almost feel like I'm mucking up the thread with no-so interesting commentary. You've really outdone all of us in this and similar threads.

If I can say anything, it's something I remember reading something of Stanton Friedman's who says that propulsion and energy systems researched and investigated by independent companies where he has worked is often not what is discussed and taught by academia. He talks in terms of space travel and what may be possible for advanced civilizations who have had time to evolve and develop technical capabilities which only seem impossible for man but really would not violate laws of physics that we may not be aware of today. Hawking, fopr example,  searched for the last ten years of his life for a law of physics which declares time travel impossible. He still hasn't discovered it and merely says now that time travel would no be practical. On the other hand, Einstein said nothing apparently about travel at speed of light or near light being an impossibility. The physics of it though suggests increasingly large amounts of energy required as velocity approaches light speed. Energy required. And this is at the centre of Kardashev's theory of advanced civilizations based on energy consumption driven by average rate of growth of a modest one per-cent per year. Where would the immense energy be drawn from? Friedman(and Kardashev I suppose) says the answer showers down on us every day, nuclear fusion. A civilization advanced enough would be able to harness the energy of the sun to a much greater degree than we are able to in this day and age. At some point, though, their energy needs would exceed the power of their own sun, at which some point just two and one-half millenia later and advancing technologically at the same modest rate, they could be harnessing the energy of a galaxy. I'll read about Lagrangian points of orbit now though. Fascinating.

Spectrum Spectrum's picture

I had some conversation with Paul Karl Hoiland according to the dates and time as his interest was how one may have used scenarios to accomplish some method of application to space travel.

My Picture in Jest with some of the Journal Group

Quote:
The ESAA group was founded with the ever present human nature of exploration in mind. The ultimate goal of the group is to physically explore the outer most human reaches, with an emphasis on intellectual exploration to achieve such goals. ESAA was founded by Fernando Loup, Edward Halerewicz, and David Waite to begin investigations into plausible methods to probe the outer reaches of known science. Fernado Loup a mathematician by trade was interested in exploring mathematical possibilities which may allow for superluminal travel. Edward Halerewicz a beginning physics student was primarily interested in popularizing advanced physical theories to encourage "outside the box thinking." David Waite a seasoned physics student was also interested in exploring the limits of known science and kept radical proposals grounded in real world physics. These three thinkers came together and discussed a recent theory within general relativity which would allow for serious superluiminal discussions.

 

Quote:
Background on ESAA-Now Stardrive

Paul Karl Hoiland - Feb 10, 2004 7:20 am

In 1994 a Mexican mathematician, Miguel Alcubierre, discovered solutions to Einstein's equations which allow warps in the space-time metric to travel faster than the speed of light. But the proposal Dr. Alcubierre made was unrealistic on three basic grounds:

1.) It required a huge amount of negative energy. 2.) It displayed no casual connection of the ship with the field itself. 3.) The exotic energy states involved violated certain quantum energy conditions like the AWEC.

The ESAA group was founded with the ever present human nature of exploration in mind. The ultimate goal of the group is to physically explore the outer most human reaches, with an emphasis on intellectual exploration to achieve such goals.

ESAA was founded by Fernando Loup, Edward Halerewicz, and David Waite to begin investigations into plausible methods to probe the outer reaches of known science. Fernado Loup a mathematician by trade was interested in exploring mathematical possibilities which may allow for superluminal travel. Edward Halerewicz a beginning physics student was primarily interested in popularizing advanced physical theories to encourage "outside the box thinking." David Waite a seasoned physics student was also interested in exploring the limits of known science and kept radical proposals grounded in real world physics. These three thinkers came together and discussed a recent theory within general relativity which would allow for serious superluiminal discussions.

These discussions were opened in December 2000 to all that were interested within a yahoo discussion forum called the "Alcubierre Warp Drive" Club, named for the proposed superluimnal theory. The active members of the yahoo club then christened a name for themselves which became ESAA. The name ESAA was created by a club supporter named Simon Jenks, which is a Greek acronym for E Somino Ad Astra, or "From a Dream to the Stars." ESAA is an open and diverse group of individuals who are interested in seeking out nature's secrets to make some of mankind's most profound dreams come true.

The ESAA group consist of physicists, mathematicians, engineers, students, and layman whose members are spread throughout the globe. All members have an equal say on group developments and collectedly the group has worked on three separate modifications to "Warp Drive" theories alone. In more recent times Dr. Paul Hoiland has become a valuable member of the ESAA group. Bringing much needed experience and wisdom to the group as well as creating the Journal of Advanced Theoretical Propulsion, based on the ESAA philosophy.

ESAA History on the Warp Drive

The online discussion forum the Alcubierre Warp Drive, began as a novel experiment, where members would answer questions that interested parties had for the new science. The early discussions within the Alcubierre Warp Drive began with philosophical debates, random brain storming, and slowly evolved to include mathematical discussions. It was during this new phase where Waite joined the club discussion, and we carefully began discussing the ramifications of his proposed warp drive. Unfortunately as soon as the mathematics became the bulk of the discussion, most of the philosophical debates were lost, but at this point Fernando Loup and Edward Halerewicz began to describe the possible consequences of Waite's space-time. During the discussion of Waite's idea the club was very grateful to receive advice and guidance from the very busy but gracious Dr. Alcubierre. And it was at this point that simply entertaining the idea of a new warp drive became a much more formal process, and a new theory of its own right began to form.

The three early founders put together a paper which tried to levitate some of the problems with the "Alcubierre Warp Drive," (gr-qc/0009013) specifically reducing the amount of negative energy required within the theory. The paper was posted at the LANL ArXiv and was entitled "Reduced Total Energy Requirements for a Modified Alcubierre Warp Drive Space-time" (gr-qc/0107097). The paper also was not accepted for publication in established journals do to the inexperience of the authors in writing for academia. Also the paper was later found to have a few problems, e.g. the lapse function used to lower the energy requirements distorted time within the "warp bubble."

Since the energy problem was dealt in more creative ways such as varying the warp bubbles parameters as suggested by Chris Van Den Broeck (gr-qc/9905084), the ESAA group decided to attack another problem. One of the problems raised with the Alcubierre Warp Drive was that its superluminal nature would be impossible to control. If this were the case then using Warp Drives for superluminal travel would be out of the question, new members joined the ESAA group and decided to construct another paper.

The group wanted to know how superluminal motion would affect null geodesics and how this might be used as a clue to have control with a superluminal warp drive. The second paper put fourth by ESAA was entitled "A Causally Connected Superluminal Warp Drive Space-time (gr-qc/0202021), which proposed varying null geodesics to counter the superluminal problem. With this work several esteemed physicists gave there opinion on the paper, they largely argued against it because horizons will always form with superluminal motion. However ESAA argued against this reasoning as the horizons are still present they are simply moved by a dual light cone interpretation for space-time, the horizons just occur at another place. Expert opinion on this matter was that even if that held up, we couldn't show that a dual light cone interpretation is possible.

From this point ESAA has had some heated arguments, which gained some enemies and made a few friends. It was however mutually agreed that such a paper would never be accepted in an existing journal and so no additional publication was pursed on this paper.

The next paper proposed by the ESAA group was a paper to explore how Warp Drive space-time affect the geodesics of photons. From Alcubierre's original paper it is not to difficult to realize how the geodesics of photons become affected as was shown by Clarke, et. al (gr-qc/9907019). However a Portuguese researcher named Jose Natario showed that energy of the photons distorted by a warp drive would be lethal if traveling near the speed of light (gr-qc/0110086). This proved to be troubling as the popular press picked up on it as being the "Warp Drives are impossible," so ESAA decided to show how Warp Drives could still be possible with these "lethal" photons. It was found that a properly chosen dynamic space-time in several layers could act to slow the dynamic nature of the photons.

This solution ESAA proposed was entitled "On the Problems of Hazardous Matter and Radiation at Faster than Light Speeds in the Warp Drive Space-time" (gr-qc/0207109). However some of the excited authors mistook the slowing dynamics for velocity, when in reality it is the energy that is reduced, so the photons are non lethal.

Further inspection by ESAA and others have shown the lethal photons are fictitious as they exist with a Cauchy Surface, the photons energy doesn't change in the "warp bubble." There's just a frequency shift caused by the Cauchy region, since there is little interest in Warp Drives do the "toy" Alcubierre model ESAA has been slow in correcting this error. For these reasons this paper has not been considered for further publication, but again have shown that warp drives are mathematically feasible. However the ESAA solution dubbed a "shield" from its science fiction counter part does indicate the possibility of a dual light cone region as suggested by the second work which might warrant further investigation.[/i]

Doctor Paul Karl Hoiland - Jan 27, 2004 4:26 pm

Fernando's general idea was to use certain effects to escape off the brane. But while his proposed testing of such with high energy particles could open the door to testing out aspect of the RS model in general, he basically discovered that it does not allow matter to escape the brane. I'm not sure who exactly pointed this out to him since he tended to exit our group again. During his time in our group I had discovered what he was looking at was a brane lensing effect. In studying such I discovered it modifies gravity and the path of particles on and off the brane.

In the case of the extra dimension the length or volume is determined by the bulk cosmological constant(1) on both a local and global level. Gravity becomes higher dimensional at scales where

1/r �¨ 1/r^1+N.

But little has ever been mentioned of its modification of the on the brane Minkowski metric as well as the AdS one. Generally, what Fernando had noticed is that if you adjust the local Israel condition you can change the "warp factor" and that regular positive matter can adjust this. Its almost a pity he withdrew that third paper from GRG. With a bit of modification he had a perfect way to alter gravity in any local region which would have been a great test bed for certain Brane Models in general even if it did not support his hyperdrive idea.

I think after looking at this idea one could achieve what to a remote observer was faster travel times even though you never exceed C in the local frame. It literally was the original ST style warp drive. You could travel through a Universe that is smaller with no violations of the laws of physics in either the local or remote region.

Spectrum Spectrum's picture

Hi Fidel,

 

As a layman, my interest has been mainly focused on gravity and a means to defy it. How one can see in different ways. I do like to be taken seriously and not as some crank.

The Lagrange Points

Quote:
In the above contour plot we see that L4 and L5 correspond to hilltops and L1, L2 and L3 correspond to saddles (i.e. points where the potential is curving up in one direction and down in the other). This suggests that satellites placed at the Lagrange points will have a tendency to wander off (try sitting a marble on top of a watermelon or on top of a real saddle and you get the idea). A detailed analysis (PDF link) confirms our expectations for L1, L2 and L3, but not for L4 and L5. When a satellite parked at L4 or L5 starts to roll off the hill it picks up speed. At this point the Coriolis force comes into play - the same force that causes hurricanes to spin up on the earth - and sends the satellite into a stable orbit around the Lagrange point.

Seeing space in a different light helps one to adjust perspective abut the universe and the possibilities of travel. There is indeed a abstractness to such ideas that when one sees the universe in a geometrical way, it helped to push my perspective about tunnels in space. How sound may be used to image WMAP.  The three body problem application toward identification of those L positions.

What position is the Space Station occupying?

 

Quote:
Warp Drives", "Hyperspace Drives", or any other term for Faster-than-light travel is at the level of speculation, with some facets edging into the realm of science. We are at the point where we know what we do know and know what we don’t, but do not know for sure if faster than light travel is possible.

The bad news is that the bulk of scientific knowledge that we have accumulated to date concludes that faster than light travel is impossible. This is an artifact of Einstein’s Special Theory of Relativity. Yes, there are some other perspectives; tachyons, wormholes, inflationary universe, spacetime warping, quantum paradoxes...ideas that are in credible scientific literature, but it is still too soon to know if such ideas are viable.

One of the issues that is evoked by any faster-than-light transport is time paradoxes: causality violations and implications of time travel. As if the faster than light issue wasn’t tough enough, it is possible to construct elaborate scenarios where faster-than-light travel results in time travel. Time travel is considered far more impossible than light travel.

Fidel

Quote:
The bad news is that the bulk of scientific knowledge that we have accumulated to date concludes that faster than light travel is impossible. This is an artifact of Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity

I believe Einstein was a realist when it came to quantum mechanics, as was Planck et al - they rejected the indeterministic world view of Heisenberg, Bohr, Born etc. And even some of them were realists, like Schrodinger, who developed wave mechanics. But then in 1957, physicist John Stewart Bell demonstrated that some forces must travel faster than speed of light in order to account for observable quantum states. And since this is at odds with Einstein's Theory of Relativity, many physicists today reject the realist position.

Spectrum Spectrum's picture

Fidel wrote:
But then in 1957, physicist John Stewart Bell demonstrated that some forces must travel faster than speed of light in order to account for observable quantum states

 

This is of course raised my interest when I had heard of "Spooky Action at a Distance." This was the start of "entanglement history" as it is was historically lead from, too today.

 

Further Links for Consideration

The basics of two-party entanglement
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http://xxx.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9511030
http://xxx.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9511027
http://xxx.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9604024
http://xxx.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9707035
http://xxx.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9709029
http://xxx.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9801069
http://xxx.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9811053
http://xxx.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9905071

Basics of multiparty entanglement

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http://xxx.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9907047
http://xxx.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9908073
http://xxx.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9912039
http://xxx.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0005115

Basics of secret sharing

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http://xxx.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9806063

 

Working group
Quantity of experiment and the Foundations OF Physics
Professor Anton Zeilinger

Quantum physics questions the classical physical conception of the world and also the everyday life understanding, which is based on our experiences, in principle. In addition, the experimental results lead to new future technologies, which a revolutionizing of communication and computer technologies, how we know them, promise.

In order to exhaust this technical innovation potential, the project "Quantenteleportation was brought over long distances" in a co-operation between WKA and the working group by Professor Anton Zeilinger into being. In this experiment photons in the duct system "are teleportiert" of Vienna, i.e. transferred, the characteristics of a photon to another, removed far. First results are to be expected in the late summer 2002.

Quantum Entanglement Benefits Exist after Links Are Broken

By Charles Q. Choi

Quote:
“Spooky action at a distance” is how Albert Einstein famously derided the concept of quantum entanglement—where objects can become linked and instantaneously influence one another regardless of distance. Now researchers suggest that this spooky action in a way might work even beyond the grave, with its effects felt after the link between objects is broken.

In experiments with quantum entanglement, which is an essential basis for quantum computing and cryptography, physicists rely on pairs of photons. Measuring one of an entangled pair immediately affects its counterpart, no matter how far apart they are theoretically. The current record distance is 144 kilometers, from La Palma to Tenerife in the Canary Islands.

In practice, entanglement is an extremely delicate condition. Background disturbances readily destroy the state—a bane for quantum computing in particular, because calculations are done only as long as the entanglement lasts. But for the first time, quantum physicist Seth Lloyd of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology suggests that memories of entanglement can survive its destruction. He compares the effect to Emily Brontë’s novel Wuthering Heights: “the spectral Catherine communicates with her quantum Heathcliff as a flash of light from beyond the grave.”

The insight came when Lloyd investigated what happened if entangled photons were used for illumination. One might suppose they could help take better pictures. For instance, flash photography shines light out and creates images from photons that are reflected back from the object to be imaged, but stray photons from other objects could get mistaken for the returning signals, fuzzing up snapshots. If the flash emitted entangled photons instead, it would presumably be easier to filter out noise signals by matching up returning photons to linked counterparts kept as references.

Still, given how fragile entanglement is, Lloyd did not expect quantum illumination to ever work. But “I was desperate,” he recalls, keen on winning funding from a Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency’s sensor program for imaging in noisy environments. Surprisingly, when Lloyd calculated how well quantum illumination might perform, it apparently not only worked, but “to gain the full enhancement of quantum illumination, all entanglement must be destroyed,” he explains.

Lloyd admits this finding is baffling—and not just to him. Prem Kumar, a quantum physicist at Northwestern University, was skeptical of any benefits from quantum illumination until he saw Lloyd’s math. “Everyone’s trying to get their heads around this. It’s posing more questions than answers,” Kumar states. “If entanglement does not survive, but you can seem to accrue benefits from it, it may now be up to theorists to see if entanglement is playing a role in these advantages or if there is some other factor involved.”

As a possible explanation, Lloyd suggests that although entanglement between the photons might technically be completely lost, some hint of it may remain intact after a measurement. “You can think of photons as a mixture of states. While most of these states are no longer entangled, one or a few remain entangled, and it is this little bit in the mixture that is responsible for this effect,” he remarks.

If quantum illumination works, Lloyd suggests it could boost the sensitivity of radar and x-ray systems as well as optical telecommunications and microscopy by a millionfold or more. It could also lead to stealthier military scanners because they could work even when using weaker signals, making them easier to conceal from adversaries. Lloyd and his colleagues detailed a proposal for practical implementation of quantum illumination in a paper submitted in 2008 to Physical Review Letters building off theoretical work presented in the September 12 Science. See: more here

Spectrum Spectrum's picture

There are currently a few experiments that simulate faster than light capabilities given "a medium through which this effect travels." ICECUBE and Pierre Auger experiments all simulate cosmic particle collisions, as does Muon detection experimentation in the LHC Gran Sasso experiment.

Tscan

Quote:
Tscan ("Trivial Scanner") is an event display, traditionally called a scanner, which I developed. It is a program that shows events graphically on the computer screen.

It was designed to be simple ("trivial") internally, and to have a simple user interface. A lot of importance was given to giving the user a large choice of options to display events in many different ways.

Tscan proved to be a very useful tool for the development of fitters. A particularly useful feature is the ability to show custom data for every photpmultiplier tube (PMT). Instead of the usual time and charge, it can show expected charge, scattered light, likelihood, chi-squared difference, patches, and any other data that can be prepared in a text format.

See:Trivial Scanner

Credit: Super-Kamiokande/Tomasz Barszczak Three (or more?) Cerenkov rings

Quote:
Multiple rings of Cerenkov light brighten up this display of an event found in the Super-Kamiokande - neutrino detector in Japan. The pattern of rings - produced when electrically charged particles travel faster through the water in the detector than light does - is similar to the result if a proton had decayed into a positron and a neutral pion. The pion would decay immediately to two gamma-ray photons that would produce fuzzy rings, while the positron would shoot off in the opposite direction to produce a clearer ring. Such kinds of decay have been predicted by "grand unified theories" that link three of nature's fundamental forces - the strong, weak and electromagnetic forces. However, there is so far no evidence for such decays; this event, for example, did not stand up to closer scrutiny.

See:Picture of the Week

Bold added for emphasis.

 

Within the IceCube collaboration the Univ. of Uppsala and the Univ. of Berkeley have joined the DESY initiative. The DESY team is also in close contact to the groups in Europe, the USA and Asia which are working on acoustic detectors for Neutrino-Telescopes installed in water. Details on the different projects have been presented on the First Workshop on Acoustic Cosmic Ray and Neutrino Detection held at Stanford in September 2003.

The muon will travel faster than light in the ice (but of course still slower than the speed of light in vacuum), thereby producing a shock wave of light, called Cerenkov radiation. This light is detected by the photomultipliers, and the trace of the neutrinos can be reconstructed with an accuracy of a couple of degrees. Thus the direction of the incoming neutrino and hence the location of the neutrino source can be pinpointed. A simulation of a muon travelling through AMANDA is shown here (1.5 MB).


Fidel

In an interview with [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyd_Bushman]Boyd Bushman[/url], he refers to Paul Dirac's theory of a neutrino universe in which matter is non-polarized. In theory, he says, if it was possible to be at one with a neutrino universe, we could travel  anywhere in zero time, or iow's, speed of thought.

 [url=http://mkaku.org/home/?page_id=250]Michio Kaku[/url] on Planck energy propulsion(physics of the impossible at this point in time):

Quote:
Most scientists doubt interstellar travel because the light barrier is so difficult to break. However, to go faster than light, one must go beyond Special Relativity to General Relativity and the quantum theory. Therefore, one cannot rule out interstellar travel if an advanced civilization can attain enough energy to destabilize space and time. Perhaps only a Type III civilization can harness the Planck energy, the energy at which space and time become unstable. Various proposals have been given to exceed the light barrier (including wormholes and stretched or warped space) but all of them require energies found only in Type III galactic civilizations. On a mathematical level, ultimately, we must wait for a fully quantum mechanical theory of gravity (such as superstring theory) to answer these fundamental questions, such as whether wormholes can be created and whether they are stable enough to allow for interstellar travel.

Such technical capabilities may just be a matter of evolution and time, a relatively small amount of time within the larger scheme.

Tommy_Paine

 

Spooky action at a distance, if I'm not wrong, has actually been observed, so it's not theoretical.  So Ursula K. Leguin's "Ansible" from "Left Hand of Darkness" is less fantasticle. 

 

Theoretical physics has been driving things since Einstein, and if anything I've learned as engineering physicists catch up and find ways to test some pretty wacked out ideas like spooky action at a distance it's not to dismiss their ideas no matter how conter intuitive they might be. 

Particularly to a guy who likes to live in a Newtonian universe.

 

That all being said, imagining faster than light travel, or other fantastic ways which would bring a Stark Trek type universe we may want in line with a possible reality doesn't really further debate for me in any satisfying way.

 

I don't think, based on what we know, that Hawking has anything to worry about.   Anything that we earthlings might have can certainly be found closer to our alien overlords.   We wouldn't even be of any value as physical slaves. 

Love slaves perhaps.   I still hold out hope for a race of Betty Page aliens on the planet Latexia.

Hey. With all those planets out there, there's surely to be at least one such planet.

 

Our knowledge is so limited, and so confined to our experience that we don't even know if we are looking in the right places with the Ceti program.  

We keep looking at "earth like stars", based on, well, that we live on earth.    And we keep listening on radio.  A format that most of us here regard as something of an anachronism.   

My thinking is that the only thing another alien species might want from us or give to us is information, because that's about all that can be sent at the speed of light or faster economically, meaning in terms of energy expenditure.

So, maybe we should be looking for some signal from some galactic "library of Alexandria" that's orbiting a stable and long lived brown dwarf or similar star.

The fact that I'm as likely to be correct as any scientist should give us all pause for thought, and illuminate just where we stand on these questions at the moment.

"Former federal defence minister Paul Hellyer, 86, believes not only that aliens have visited Earth but also that they have contributed greatly to human advances.."

Canny aliens, they manage to give us these advances right when other discoveries put us on the very cusp of discovering them ourselves, so as to not tip us off to their existance.

 

 

Fidel

Tommy Paine wrote:
Canny aliens, they manage to give us these advances right when other discoveries put us on the very cusp of discovering them ourselves, so as to not tip us off to their existance.

What's even spookier is this. Some of Steven Greer's disclosure project witnesses have stated that they have seen and were made aware of technologies that must be centuries more advanced than what exists in military and public domains today. Yes, there are former US Military officials and other government workers saying that, yes, there is a massive cover up, and that the cover up is ongoing.

These people are, in effect, whistle blowers. And there has been a trend for whistle blowing in the US in recent years. Their's have been the most secretive governments in world history.

And this is so X Files. There is an unconfirmed quote circulated on the internet and attributed to Ben Rich, who allegedly said to a graduating class at UCal: ≈We already have the means to travel among the stars. We can take ET home. 

Fidel

[url=http://www.physorg.com/news194788240.html]Scientists create artificial mini 'black hole'[/url]

Quote:
Scientists from China have built a device that can trap and absorb microwaves coming from all directions with a 99% absorption rate - a property that makes the device simulate, to some extent, an astrophysical black hole.

Fidel

[url=http://spacetoys.com/blog/?p=1213]In New Space Race, Enter the Entrepreneurs[/url]

Quote:
Isaac Brekken for The New York Times

IN THE FUTURE Prototypes of Bigelow Aerospace’s Sundancer habitat, which has an inflated volume of 180 cubic meters, at a hangar in North Las Vegas.

By KENNETH CHANG

NORTH LAS VEGAS, Nev. — At the Bigelow Aerospace factory here, the full-size space station mockups sitting on the warehouse floor look somewhat like puffy white watermelons. The interiors offer a hint of what spacious living in space might look like.

“Every astronaut we have come in here just says, ‘Wow,’ ” said Robert T. Bigelow, the company founder. “They can’t believe the size of this thing.”

Four years from now, yada-yada blah blah ...

His space stations are not his only interest in space. “I’ve been a researcher and student of U.F.O.’s for many, many years,” Mr. Bigelow said. “Anybody that does research, if people bother to do quality research, come away absolutely convinced. You don’t have to have personal encounters.”

He added: “People have been killed. People have been hurt. It’s more than observational kind of data.”

This billionaire entrepreneur is fairly broad in his thinking, wouldn't you say?

Fidel

[url=http://www.scientificcomputing.com/news-DS-Universe-Dark-Side-Debated-06... Dark Side Debated[/url]

What if the universe is not expanding as fast as astronomers believe that it is? What if dark matter and mysterious dark energy do not exist? Scientists say that if true, it would be shocking. The standard model might be wrong.

Fidel

[url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11041449]Alien hunters 'should look for artificial intelligence'[/url]

Quote:
Seti, the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence, has until now sought radio signals from worlds like Earth.

But Seti astronomer Seth Shostak argues that the time between aliens developing radio technology and artificial intelligence (AI) would be short.

Writing in Acta Astronautica, he says that the odds favour detecting such alien AI rather than "biological" life.

Ufologists have said that it's possible some UFO's could be non-biological or even biological AI entities, and perhaps a type of von Neumann probe sent from other worlds. Are they self-replicating? One has to have an imagination to even think it. I think younger babblers may not think it so fantastic with some being the enthusiasts of modern sci-fi that they are. OTOH, there are a number of scientists today who have suggested the same thing.

Fidel

[url=http://wemustknow.net/2010/08/extraterrestrial-hypothesis-is-now-public-... French aerospace report endorses reality of UFOs[/url]

Quote:
In France, on May 31, 2010, The Progress Report of the Sigma/3AF Commission, a semi-official report, adopted the extraterrestrial hypothesis for specific UFO sightings. According to researcher Antonio Huneeus “A new French report released on May 31, 2010 concluded that UFOs are definitely real and possibly of extraterrestrial origin. The Progress Report of the Sigma/3AF Commission comes from a highly credible source, the Aeronautical & Astronomical Association of France, known as the 3AF, which established a Commission on Unidentified Aerial Phenomena back in May 2008.

"Mr. Mulder, they have been here for a long, long time."

Spectrum Spectrum's picture
Spectrum Spectrum's picture


 

Image ...
The CHASE detector. The end of the magnet (orange) can be seen on the right.

Exploring our dark universe is often the domain of extreme physics. Traces of dark matter particles are searched for by huge neutrino telescopes located underwater or under Antarctic ice, by scientists at powerful particle colliders, and deep underground.  Clues to mysterious dark energy will be investigated using big telescopes on Earth and experiments that will be launched into space.
But an experiment doesn’t have to be exotic to explore the unexplained. At the International Conference on High Energy Physics, which ended today in Paris, scientists unveiled the first results from the GammeV-CHASE experiment, which used 30 hours’ worth of data from a 10-meter-long experiment to place the world’s best limits on the existence of dark energy particles.

CHASE, which stands for Chameleon Afterglow Search, was constructed at Fermilab to search for hypothetical particles called chameleons. Physicists theorize that these particles may be responsible for the dark energy that is causing the accelerating expansion of our universe.

“One of the reasons I felt strongly about doing this experiment is that it was a good example of a laboratory experiment to test dark energy models,” says CHASE scientist Jason Steffen, who presented the results at ICHEP. “Astronomical surveys are important as well, but they’re not going to tell us everything.” CHASE was a successor to Fermilab’s GammeV experiment, which searched for chameleon particles and another hypothetical particle called the axion.

See: Lighting up the dark universe by Katie Yurkewicz Posted in ICHEP 2010

Fidel

[url=NASA">http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-kepler-planets-20110203,0,814... finds dozens of planets that might support life[/url] The Kepler mission has discovered 1,235 possible planets, including 54 in the 'Goldilocks range' — just far enough from their stars to be neither too hot nor too cold for liquid water.

trippie

I know, I know the answer. Waht's in space? Well daaa, space...;)

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