2019 UK election 2

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Ken Burch

nicky wrote:

I helped Boris get his majority? Grow up Ken. Do you think my posts here on an obscure Canadian website influenced one single vote in Britain?

It speaks volumes that you seem to think I am more responsible for Labour’s defeat than is Jeremy Corbyn.

Stop blaming Corbyn.  You've done nothing but blame and slander and lie about the man for the last four years.  And basically everything you've posted was simply a regurgitation of the Guardian's "line".

You had no reason to keep attacking the man during the election campaign, and to do so even after you admitted it would be too late for him to have stood down.

 

josh

Corbyn could have fought back better against the smear campaign.  But submitting to the demands of the remainers and promising to hold another referendum eliminated any chance to prevent a Tory majority.  Brexit party voters flocked to them and I'm sure Labour lost voters in the northern marginals.

nicky

The SNP fought this election on an unambiguous Remain policy and looks to do exceedingly well.

This is certainly an indication that Labour might have done the same.

josh

That's Scotland!  Not the English north and midlands.  There were many Labour-leave marginals and I'll bet nearly all went Tory this time.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..what saddens me is that even now the blame game goes on. rather than see what happened was the inability to understand that brexit or remain wasn't what was important but the manifesto.

nicky

This tweet from a Labour MPsays it all.

Sorry @daneacross this is one mans fault. His campaign, his manifesto, his leadership. @jeremycorbyn

josh

epaulo13 wrote:

..what saddens me is that even now the blame game goes on. rather than see what happened was the inability to understand that brexit or remain wasn't what was important but the manifesto.

It didn't have a chance because Brexit overshadowed it,

Debater

In my many years of being involving with politics, I have rarely seen a man inflict as much damage on his own party as Jeremy Corbyn.  The arrogance has been astounding.  The total disconnect from reality.  Corbyn is the British equivalent of Michael Ignatieff.  He has nearly destroyed the Labour Party with his loathsome personality.

Nicky has been right all along on this one.  The Corbyn defenders refused to listen to reason.  They refused to see what this man was.  They refused to consider the consequences of long-time Labour supporters and MPs leaving the party in droves.  The man even drove away long-time Jewish supporters of Labour who have supported the party for years.  He created a disgraceful mess.

Despite the disaster of Brexit and 2 Conservative Prime Ministers having to step down because of it, he handed the Conservatives and Boris Johnson a Majority because of his own colossal arrogance.

josh

nicky wrote:

This tweet from a Labour MPsays it all.

Sorry @daneacross this is one mans fault. His campaign, his manifesto, his leadership. @jeremycorbyn

Says it all for you.  Refusal to accept the results of the referendum and Corbyn's election as leader doomed any chance to stop the Tories.  Blairites not big on majority rule.

Ken Burch

nicky wrote:

The SNP fought this election on an unambiguous Remain policy and looks to do exceedingly well.

This is certainly an indication that Labour might have done the same.

Scotland has a radically different view of the EU than the English North and Midlands.  It's absurd to compare the two.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

josh wrote:

epaulo13 wrote:

..what saddens me is that even now the blame game goes on. rather than see what happened was the inability to understand that brexit or remain wasn't what was important but the manifesto.

It didn't have a chance because Brexit overshadowed it,

..not just brexit but remain. both were instruments of division which were manipulated. it's sad that folks in the uk and on this board could not find a way through this. a way to unite for something greater.   

josh

Brexit Party took 8.3 in Blyth Valley that cost Labour a seat it had held since 1950.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blyth_Valley_(UK_Parliament_constituency)

josh

Labour hold, but look at how the Brexit Party killed its margin.

https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1205272642695180288?s=20

 

Debater

"Corbyn was a disaster on the doorstep. Everyone knew he couldn't lead the working class out of a paper bag...I want Momentum out of the party...The worst result since 1935". Says former Labour home secretary Alan Johnson

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1205275792336445441

Ken Burch

Alan Johnson is an arch-Blairite.  And Labour without Momentum would mean going back t0 standing for nothing again.  

Ken Burch

If anything, NDPP has been shown right in arguing that it was a waste of time trying to appease Remain obsessives.  The same exit poll predicts no gains in seats for the LibDems.  Where Labour has lost votes is in Leave areas-this means the party should have focused solely on working out the most inclusive, non-xenophobic and economically egalitarian form of Brexit possible, not on a pointless second referendum.

 

josh

The Blairites, who've been stabbing the party in the back for four years, have now decided to do it in the front.  

josh

As I've said, once Corbyn caved to the remainers and promised another referendum, any chance to stop a Tory majority went out the window.  He didn't do that in 2017.

NDPP

'Brexitquake not Youthquake': Stunning UK Vote Proves Those Who Ignore Traditional Voters Are Doomed - Galloway

https://on.rt.com/a72z

"Exit polls suggesting a decisive victory for Boris Johnson's Conservatives are an indication that Britain witnessed a 'Brexitquake' and that Labour turned its back on its traditional voting base, ex-MP George Galloway tells RT. While Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn will likely bear the brunt of the blame, Galloway believes the defeat is not entirely his fault, as he found himself 'boxed in' to an anti-Brexit position by a strong Remainer contingent in his party. 'I cautioned for the last two years that Labour would be doomed if they turned their back on their traditional supporters, who supported Brexit strongly. All my warnings have been vindicated..."

 

WATCH: BritishGE19 is ending exactly as it began: the air is thick with allegations that the Russians are coming!

https://twitter.com/RT_com/status/1205170452026388481

 

"Labour will lose the election and the left will do what the left always does and blame everyone and everything in the world - the media, the billionaires, the racists, the transphobes, the Tories, the Blairites - literally everyone and everything but themselves."

https://twitter.com/DrLeeJones/status/1205284305745960961

Ken Burch
josh

Does that include blaming the Zionists, NDPP?
 

So NDPP comes on to attack the left.  You and Nicky should be arm in arm.  At least Galloway is making sense.

Debater

Will Corbyn do the right thing and step down?

If Scheer can step down after losing one election, how many more losess will it take to convince Corbyn to do the same?

NDPP

@josh: only the fake left

Labour Lost Because It Failed To Grasp The Democratic Opportunity of Brexit

https://www.thefullbrexit.com/why-labour-lost

"The left lost the 2019 general election for a simple reason: It was on the wrong side of a popular revolt against the status quo. The reality is that the Labour Party abandoned the working class in the 1980s, shifting towards the aspirational, university-educated, urban middle classes, a trend that has only accelerated under Corbyn. Many working class voters disengaged from politics, while others angrily turned to the right-wing populists.

Despite Labour's attempt to convince everyone that this was not a Brexit election, the choice was clearly between a Conservative majority government that would implement Brexit [Tory BRINO], and a Labour-led minority government that would negotiate a Brexit In Name Only deal and hold a second referendum clearly intended to overturn the first..."

josh

I'm sure Corbyn will step down.  

josh

Labour was able to gain in 2017 because it reconnected with the working class by saying it would implement Brexit without another referendum while ending austerity. 

robbie_dee

This result should be welcomed by Trump. Both because it shows his style of hateful clown politics can still work and because the US private health insurers will now have a clear shot at breaking up the post-Brexit NHS.

Ken Burch

Debater wrote:

Will Corbyn do the right thing and step down?

If Scheer can step down after losing one election, how many more losess will it take to convince Corbyn to do the same?

You don't need to imply that he'd refuse to step down.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

Debater wrote:

Will Corbyn do the right thing and step down?

If Scheer can step down after losing one election, how many more losess will it take to convince Corbyn to do the same?

Of course Corbyn will step down, you moron. He never wanted to be leader in the first place, but when the left Labour MPs drew straws, he got the short one. He did his best (which was pretty good) to overcome the blizzard of smears from the entire british establishment, especially Blairite Labour MPs, but they were too much for him to overcome. Hopefully there will be at least one leadership candidate to carry on the same socialist program, and if there is that candidate will win the leadership easily.

josh

But John [McDonnell] is right to say that it’s Brexit. The Labour party had a choice when Theresa May presented her deal. We could either have stopped the Tories or we could have stopped Brexit. And unfortunately some of the siren voices in the shadow cabinet who have big Liberal Democrat votes in their London seats decided that stopping Brexit, and therefore lining themselves up for future leadership bids, was much more important than respecting the votes in marginal constituencies in the midlands and in the north west and the north east. And they’ve sacrificed us for whatever political ambitions they want to do next."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-resignation...

josh
Ken Burch

This result discredits any argument for electing Keir Starmer as leader.  Starmer's relentless push to make Labour go all-out Remain, which led to him trying to undermine Corbyn at the last party conference before the election, would have cost Labour even MORE seats in the North and Northeast in this election, as would committing the party to fighting either for a second referendum before the election or to the hopeless, pointless effort to revokeArticke 50.  In tonight's results, the only party making significant gains in the popular vote-though thank the gods not in seats-is the Brexit Party-and the only reason they are making those gains is that Corbyn was forced to pledge to a second referendum  The LibDem vote is barely increasing at all, and it's likely that every former Labour MP who defected to the LibDems or ChangeUK has lost there seats. 

Had Labour stayed with its 2017 position-which recognized that Brexit was a settled matter-there would have been no losses in the North and Northeast tonight. 

It is very difficult to avoid the conclusion that the only reason Starmer pushed hard for an all-out Remain policy was to make sure Labour would do badly at the polls.

Corbyn will stand down-this has never been abour ego for him-but if the PLP do not do the honourable thing and commit to allowing either Long-Bailey or Rayner on the leadership ballot, the leadership vote will be illegitimate.  No one but the PLP itself would want the ballot to be restricted to contest between antisocialists like Cooper and Starmer.

josh

In tonight's results, the only party making significant gains in the popular vote-though thank the gods not in seats-is the Brexit Party-and the only reason they are making those gains is that Corbyn was forced to pledge to a second referendum  The LibDem vote is barely increasing at all, and it's likely that every former Labour MP who defected to the LibDems or ChangeUK has lost there seats. 

Had Labour stayed with its 2017 position-which recognized that Brexit was a settled matter-there would have been no losses in the North and Northeast tonight. 
 

Yes.  

josh

McDonnell as interim leader followed by Long-Bailey would work.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, has just told Sky News that he won’t stand for the Labour leadership, even just as a temporary candidate. He said:

I’m not standing for leader of the Labour party – I’ve said that time and time again – either as a temporary, or as a permanent. That’s not what I want to do.

Sean in Ottawa

josh wrote:

In tonight's results, the only party making significant gains in the popular vote-though thank the gods not in seats-is the Brexit Party-and the only reason they are making those gains is that Corbyn was forced to pledge to a second referendum  The LibDem vote is barely increasing at all, and it's likely that every former Labour MP who defected to the LibDems or ChangeUK has lost there seats. 

Had Labour stayed with its 2017 position-which recognized that Brexit was a settled matter-there would have been no losses in the North and Northeast tonight. 
 

Yes.  

In the counted seats the LD are up 3.3 and Brexit 3.2 and in Scotland the SNP is up 9... What am I missing?

Ken Burch

josh wrote:

McDonnell as interim leader followed by Long-Bailey would work.

Or McDonnell followed by Rayner.  Starmer will be seen, along with Tom Watson, as one of the great saboteurs of this campaign.   

And next party conference, which should be held before the leadership vote, needs to see the adoption of Open Selection for all sitting MPs seeking re-election as well as in all seats the party is trying to gain.

The Remainers and the PLP caused this by undermining Corbyn til the last...they're the ones who should pay.

Ken Burch

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

josh wrote:

In tonight's results, the only party making significant gains in the popular vote-though thank the gods not in seats-is the Brexit Party-and the only reason they are making those gains is that Corbyn was forced to pledge to a second referendum  The LibDem vote is barely increasing at all, and it's likely that every former Labour MP who defected to the LibDems or ChangeUK has lost there seats. 

Had Labour stayed with its 2017 position-which recognized that Brexit was a settled matter-there would have been no losses in the North and Northeast tonight. 
 

Yes.  

In the counted seats the LD are up 3.3 and Brexit 3.2 and in Scotland the SNP is up 9... What am I missing?

That has changed since I posted my remarks.  Still, it's evidence that Labour had far more to lose from trying to appease the Remainers, as Corbyn went as far as he could possibly go in doing, than it would have by telling the Remainers to move on and accept that defending Labour values mattered far more than a bourgeois trade agreement.

Also, Remain support in Scotland is motivated by different factors than Remain support in the South of England.  In the IndyRef, Scots were told by Westminster-and this seems to have been the deciding factor-that, if they left the UK, they would not be allowed to stay in the EU, on the grounds that it was only the UK as a whole that was admitted to the EU, not each component country.  This issue was probably the only reason Scotland voted against independence.  After that, Cameron called the EU referendum and Scotland ended up with the prospect of being forced out of the EU against its wishes.

 

Sean in Ottawa

Ken Burch wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

josh wrote:

In tonight's results, the only party making significant gains in the popular vote-though thank the gods not in seats-is the Brexit Party-and the only reason they are making those gains is that Corbyn was forced to pledge to a second referendum  The LibDem vote is barely increasing at all, and it's likely that every former Labour MP who defected to the LibDems or ChangeUK has lost there seats. 

Had Labour stayed with its 2017 position-which recognized that Brexit was a settled matter-there would have been no losses in the North and Northeast tonight. 
 

Yes.  

In the counted seats the LD are up 3.3 and Brexit 3.2 and in Scotland the SNP is up 9... What am I missing?

That has changed since I posted my remarks.  Still, it's evidence that Labour had far more to lose from trying to appease the Remainers, as Corbyn went as far as he could possibly go in doing, than it would have by telling the Remainers to move on and accept that defending Labour values mattered far more than a bourgeois trade agreement.

Also, Remain support in Scotland is motivated by different factors than Remain support in the South of England.  In the IndyRef, Scots were told by Westminster-and this seems to have been the deciding factor-that, if they left the UK, they would not be allowed to stay in the EU, on the grounds that it was only the UK as a whole that was admitted to the EU, not each component country.  This issue was probably the only reason Scotland voted against independence.  After that, Cameron called the EU referendum and Scotland ended up with the prospect of being forced out of the EU against its wishes.

 

Ok thanks. I was somewhat confused between the actual votes and the exit polls that I could not find popular vote for. 

Sean in Ottawa

Corbyn has said he will not lead in a new election.

Ken Burch

Labour was never going to gain seats or votes in Scotland by going all-0ut Remain there.  The only chance it had of making gains there was in going as close to supporting Scottish independence(or at least the "Devo Max" proposal in which as many powers would be devolved to the Holyrood Parliament as possible from Westminster without Scotland actually leaving the UK.

Since Corybn is a committed supporter of the preservation of the UK-as any leader of Westminster Labour would pretty much have to be-he simply couldn't take that position.

It's worth nothing that it's likely that Jo Swinson, the arch-Remainer of all arch-Remainers, is likely to lose her seat in Scotland to the SNP tonight.

Ken Burch

Labour was never going to gain seats or votes in Scotland by going all-0ut Remain there.  The only chance it had of making gains there was in going as close to supporting Scottish independence(or at least the "Devo Max" proposal in which as many powers would be devolved to the Holyrood Parliament as possible from Westminster without Scotland actually leaving the UK.

Since Corybn is a committed supporter of the preservation of the UK-as any leader of Westminster Labour would pretty much have to be-he simply couldn't take that position.

It's worth nothing that it's likely that Jo Swinson, the arch-Remainer of all arch-Remainers, is likely to lose her seat in Scotland to the SNP tonight.

Ken Burch

Labour was never going to gain seats or votes in Scotland by going all-0ut Remain there.  The only chance it had of making gains there was in going as close to supporting Scottish independence(or at least the "Devo Max" proposal in which as many powers would be devolved to the Holyrood Parliament as possible from Westminster without Scotland actually leaving the UK.

Since Corybn is a committed supporter of the preservation of the UK-as any leader of Westminster Labour would pretty much have to be-he simply couldn't take that position.

(on edit)It's worth noting that it's likely that Jo Swinson, the arch-Remainer of all arch-Remainers,  lost her seat in Scotland to the SNP tonight.  Good riddance.   All Swinson did was to help Boris get re-elected.

Debater

Michael Moriarity wrote:

Debater wrote:

Will Corbyn do the right thing and step down?

If Scheer can step down after losing one election, how many more losess will it take to convince Corbyn to do the same?

Of course Corbyn will step down, you moron. He never wanted to be leader in the first place, but when the left Labour MPs drew straws, he got the short one. He did his best (which was pretty good) to overcome the blizzard of smears from the entire british establishment, especially Blairite Labour MPs, but they were too much for him to overcome. Hopefully there will be at least one leadership candidate to carry on the same socialist program, and if there is that candidate will win the leadership easily.

You don't need to engage in name calling.

Corbyn's arrogance and that of his supporters is what has led to this moment.  And he has refused to step down in the past, so one never knows given his record.

Aristotleded24

Commentator Jamarl Thomas on why Labour lost. This validates the prediction he made earlier.

This election shows that globalism is dead. I absolutely agree with josh and NDPP that Corbyn backing down on Brexit killed any chances to Labour. Traditionally Brexit was seen as a right-wing project, but in recent times, we have seen Brexit defenders from the left rise up. They aruged that Labour would not be able to implement its own agenda under the deal it would have negotiated. They also argued that even if Boris implemented Brexit that as a free country they would be able to vote him out of office and take a different path.

Globalization is dead. One of the arguments in favour of remaining was that you could go to school and travel throughout Europe on a British passport. If you've just lost your job and are struggling to find a place to live, what benefit is that to you? Doesn't that seem more like a priviledge than anything else? It's been mind-boggling how globalists (represented in the UK by the Remain camp) are tone-deaf to how hated they really are. I think that the left worshiping at the altar of higher education while neglecting the working class plays into this. Take a look at how educated voters generally lean more to the left. (American journalist Krystal Ball refers to this group as the Professional Managerial Class.) "You must be stupid to vote for the right," people say. How many people does that convinve? Well, I would say many bad things about former Prime Minister Stephen Harper, but "stupid" is not one of them. I think the contrast between the Warren and Sanders campaigns illustrates this. Warren will fight for lower (or even free) tuition so that the working class can get an education and be more like her. But for the working class on its own? Forget it, nothing on offer. This approach does not help fishing communities on the East Coast, forestry communities in BC, farm communities in the Prairies, mining and pulp and paper communities in northern Ontario, Manitoba, and Quebec, mining towns in Appalachia, factory towns in the rust belt, or even those communities in northern England which have apparently swung away from Labour tonight. This approach simply takes talented people out of those communities, and leaves these communities behind. Is it any wonder that they feel bitter? And who can forget the hypocritical approach of the left preaching tolerance while branding anyone who disagrees with their orthodoxy on identity politcs as racist, sexist, homophobic, etc? Don't also forget the large numbers of people who have been educated and still struggle in low-wage jobs or with unemployment, and the scam that higher education has become is becoming more and more apparent.

Much as it pains me to say this, but when Alex Jones says that the globalists are conspiring to take everything away from people, he is right. That's why he resonates with so many people. The problem is that he redirects that frustration into ridiculous conspiracy theories and onto more vulnerable sectors of the population. We need to reinvigourate those communities. Sanders will go on Fox News and tell the commenters to their face why they are wrong about Medicare for All. Is it any wonder that Trump voters respect him? Is it any surprise that he's in the top 3 of Democratic candidates who have cross-over appeal with people who voted for Trump in 2016? We need to respect that innate human need for people to identify with their local communities, and find ways to help empower those communities to meet their needs and become inclusive in the process. Only then will clowns like Johnson, Trump, Bolsonaro, Duterte, Erdoan, and Morrison lose their influence and power over people.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

Debater wrote:

In my many years of being involving with politics, I have rarely seen a man inflict as much damage on his own party as Jeremy Corbyn.  The arrogance has been astounding.  The total disconnect from reality.  Corbyn is the British equivalent of Michael Ignatieff.  He has nearly destroyed the Labour Party with his loathsome personality.

Yes, I do need to engage in name calling because that is the only appropriate way to respond to stupidity (or dishonesty, your choice) on this level. The comparison of Corbyn to Ignatieff is perhaps the dumbest thing you have ever posted. Ignatieff was and is a person who has never believed in anything but his own career. Corbyn is a person who has never cared about himself nearly as much as he cares about the others who he has tried to help for decades. Corbyn is the furthest thing from a "loathsome personality" that I can imagine. He is a warm, decent, intelligent socialist, who is loved by his constituents, who are also his long term neighbours. You have the judgment of a sea slug.

Aristotleded24

nicky wrote:
The SNP fought this election on an unambiguous Remain policy and looks to do exceedingly well.

This is certainly an indication that Labour might have done the same.

The Liberal Democrats took that approach and got hammered.

Ken Burch

Debater wrote:

Michael Moriarity wrote:

Debater wrote:

Will Corbyn do the right thing and step down?

If Scheer can step down after losing one election, how many more losess will it take to convince Corbyn to do the same?

Of course Corbyn will step down, you moron. He never wanted to be leader in the first place, but when the left Labour MPs drew straws, he got the short one. He did his best (which was pretty good) to overcome the blizzard of smears from the entire british establishment, especially Blairite Labour MPs, but they were too much for him to overcome. Hopefully there will be at least one leadership candidate to carry on the same socialist program, and if there is that candidate will win the leadership easily.

You don't need to engage in name calling.

Corbyn's arrogance and that of his supporters is what has led to this moment.  And he has refused to step down in the past, so one never knows given his record.

Corbyn has never been arrogant.  It's just that there was no situation during his tenure where he ever owed it to the party to stand down.  The actual arrogance came from the PLP, in their refusal to accept that Corbyn had won the leadership in 2015 and their relentless refusal to treat him with the respect he was entitled to as leader.  They showed even more arrogance in refusing to accept that the huge number of new people he'd brought in to the party had any right to stay.

Nothing would have been better tonight if those wreckers had had their way and Corbyn had been forced to stand aside and let the MPs block anyone to the left of Blair from being on the leadership ballot to replace him, or if his supporters had been collectively expelled from the party.

And you've got no call to be attacking him at this point.  If you lived in the UK, you'd only vote Labour if it was led by another Tory militarist like Blair.

JKR

This election has been an unmitigated disaster for the people of the UK. Labour never had a chance of winning this election as they were damned no matter what position they took on Brexit. Corbyn should have avoided this election at all costs especially after his approval ratings hit rock bottom.  Now Labour and, more importantly, the UK will have to watch the Conservatives run the UK until at least the next election set in 5 long years for May of 2024. I suspect that by then the Conservatives will have inflicted a lot more damage on the UK. It will be interesting to see what kind of Brexit deal Boris makes with the EU. My guess is that both Leavers and Remainers will both be disappointed with Boris's Brexit. And it looks like the UK will be mired in at least another half decade of austerity after this lost decade of austerity. Boris might even be able to sign a trade deal with the US that will lock in right-wing economic policies for the UK even if Labour is able to form a government one day in the future. What a sad day for the UK! Scotland and Northern Ireland would be right in removing themselves from this disaster area. And the EU will also probably be much better off without this "sick man of Europe."

jatt_1947 jatt_1947's picture

We need to respect that innate human need for people to identify with their local communities, and find ways to help empower those communities to meet their needs and become inclusive in the process. Only then will clowns like Johnson, Trump, Bolsonaro, Duterte, Erdoan, and Morrison lose their influence and power over people.

 

This.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..labour did what it needed to do. it did the right thing. it provided a very progressive platform. this was rejected. 

..party campaigns are never perfect and the expectation that it be all seeing is absurd. and i maintain that brexit was/is a false issue because everyone has their own definition of what it is including those on this board. and labour had theirs. now the only opinion that matters are that of extreme tories. and johnson recently commented that he would have to come to an arrangement with the eu. the criticism that labour wasn't tough enough on the accusers of antisemitism well the uk has just voted for an openly proud racist. the contradictions are huge.

..i'm coming round to thinking this was similar to the election of trump. the election of ford. there's an enormous price to pay for that kind of thinking. 

..on top of this labour could again be taken over by the blairites. why would young folks stick around after the country rejected this platform. and what now for the poor, the poc, the climate? they are fucked. 

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