2019 UK election

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nicky

I appreciate that older voters skew conservative, but 9% and 4th place?

Hard to put any postive spin on it unless you're an ostrich or a Corbynista.

Sean in Ottawa

nicky wrote:

I appreciate that older voters skew conservative, but 9% and 4th place?

Hard to put any postive spin on it unless you're an ostrich or a Corbynista.

This demographic heavily supports leave so that is part of it. 74% to leave parties. 

This election is largle a referendum on Brexit and Labour is caught in the middle without the most strong remain position or a leave position. 

The party may be taking the right position for its members and principles but in an impossible context. There is real division in this as no strongly held remain or leave position would come without cost somewhere andwhile the position the party is taking reflects this conflict that too is not a winner.

This is a disaster for the leader but the simplistic solutions are also not going to improve things.

It is possible that the nuanced position could gain some support as the campaign goes on but this is not as likely as optimists hope.

Of course Corbyn will be blamed for this but I think he is in an impossible position choosing between two terrible positions.

Many here are extremely committed to one or the other but there are good reasons for Labour to dislike both as I have mentionned before: those who say Europe is a capitalist and oppressive project are not wrong as we have seen and those who recognize that leave is a trap to move the UK more right than Europe would go are also correct.

Fact is Labour is being forced to choose between two right wing evils and is unable to inject a progressive path. This is not the fault of the leader as it is built in to the binary choice being made by voters in this election. 

Thousands of miles away can we not at least recognize the predicament Corbyn is in?

josh

The US president has taken the unusual step of using an interview with Nigel Farage on LBC radio to intervene in the UK general election. Trump said Jeremy Corbyn would be 'so bad' for the UK and that Farage and Boris Johnson would be an 'unstoppable force' if they were to work together 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2019/oct/31/corbyn-would-be-so-bad-for-your-country-trump-tells-farage-video

NDPP

Another Brexit Day Comes and Goes

https://twitter.com/spikedonline/status/1190010617673003008

The reason today has beome No Brexit Yet Again Day is not because Boris lied, but because the Remain establishment continually prevented him from enacting even his super-soft Brexit, or Brexit In Name Only, as many of us prefer to call it. MPs passed laws and campaigners used all manner of dirty legal tricks to ensure that Boris's deal did not get through parliament and to force him to go back to Brussels and beg for another extension to the Article 50 process (and to our membership of the EU).

But be aware of this: millions and millions of people look at you and see not clever, funny activists bemoaning Boris's failure to deliver Brexit on 31 October, but an increasingly distant and harsh elite that is taking pleasure in the destruction of 17.4 million votes. If you're celebrating the non-appearance of Brexit on Brexit Day, then you're celebrating the silencing of millions of voices who just wanted change and progress in British politics; you're celebrating the most flagrant denial of democracy in the history of the franchise in this country."

 

Labour Cannot Have A Manifesto that Promises Radical Change If We Are To Remain in the EU

https://labourheartlands.com/labour-cannot-have-a-manifesto-that-promise...

"Neoliberalism is at the centre of all the EU does. Labour therefore faces a choice: dump the EU, dump austerity or dump rebuilding, regeneration and renationalisation..."

NDPP

josh wrote:

The US president has taken the unusual step of using an interview with Nigel Farage on LBC radio to intervene in the UK general election. Trump said Jeremy Corbyn would be 'so bad' for the UK and that Farage and Boris Johnson would be an 'unstoppable force' if they were to work together 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2019/oct/31/corbyn-would-be-so-bad-for-your-country-trump-tells-farage-video

NDPP wrote:

Ain't going to happen:

https://twitter.com/evolvepolitics/status/1190226319667322880

"Farage has  basically just given a final ultimatum to Boris Johnson: 'Back a No Deal Brexit or we'll stand against the Tories in every single constituency across the country.' This is about to get messy

Ken Burch

nicky wrote:

Something Ken and I can agree on:

Whatever you tried to post there did not show up.

Ken Burch

NDPP wrote:

josh wrote:

The US president has taken the unusual step of using an interview with Nigel Farage on LBC radio to intervene in the UK general election. Trump said Jeremy Corbyn would be 'so bad' for the UK and that Farage and Boris Johnson would be an 'unstoppable force' if they were to work together 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2019/oct/31/corbyn-would-be-so-bad-for-your-country-trump-tells-farage-video

NDPP wrote:

Ain't going to happen:

https://twitter.com/evolvepolitics/status/1190226319667322880

"Farage has  basically just given a final ultimatum to Boris Johnson: 'Back a No Deal Brexit or we'll stand against the Tories in every single constituency across the country.' This is about to get messy

If Farage did that, the Tories would be doomed.

NDPP

It appears to be the case: The differences are irreconcilable and unlike UK Labour, betrayal isn't an option.

"The FACTS: If You Read Only One Thing About Boris Johnson's Deal Make it This..."

https://twitter.com/brexitparty_uk/status/1187451945566511112

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Labour is planning its own Green New Deal

quote:

Strategically, Mr McDonnell is focused on two problems: the failure of the free-market economic model, with the danger of secular stagnation and rising inequality; and our burning planet, which looks set to turn at least $4tn of capital invested in carbon-intensive energy businesses into “stranded assets”.

It is clear from recent pronouncements that Labour sees the stagnation problem as a subset of the climate problem. For the left, climate change provides a justification for a big Keynesian, fiscal expansion programme.

Labour wants to combat climate change through three mechanisms: state spending, state lending and the state direction of private finance. The first part of the plan centres on a proposed National Transformation Fund: direct spending by central government on measures deemed essential to reach the decarbonisation targets set by the IPCC for 2030.

Tellingly, the entire project relies on the participation of private finance. Labour wants the Treasury to spend £6bn by 2030 directly on offshore wind, a further £6bn via regional energy bodies, pulling in £12bn via direct equity stakes and a further £58bn using “limited-recourse” project finance — in other words, private debt which the state partially guarantees.

Under an initiative called the People’s Power plan, Labour intends to take a 51 per cent public stake in new offshore wind farms, and to plough 20 per cent of the profits into regenerating depressed coastal towns, with the rest going to fund more renewable energy. The party expects the wind venture to create at least 67,000 new jobs.

The second element in Labour’s programme is public borrowing and lending. Labour’s plan for a National Investment Bank, lending £250bn over 10 years, was first spelt out in its 2017 manifesto, and targeted primarily at infrastructure. Now it looks set to be substantially reframed around clean energy, housebuilding, the renovation of dwellings and transport. As for the third element, credit guidance to the private sector by the Bank of England, here too an idea conceived after the 2008 crisis is to be repurposed as part of the decarbonisation agenda.

Labour means to borrow, tax and spend — probably on an even bigger scale than proposed in 2017 — with climate change as the overarching frame for the pursuit of goals such as productivity growth and redistribution.....

nicky

Workington Voting Intention:

CON: 45% (+3)
LAB: 34% (-17)
BXP: 13% (+13)
LDM: 5% (-2)
GRN: 2% (+2)

Via @Survation, 30-31 Oct.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture
josh

nicky wrote:

Workington Voting Intention:

CON: 45% (+3)
LAB: 34% (-17)
BXP: 13% (+13)
LDM: 5% (-2)
GRN: 2% (+2)

Via @Survation, 30-31 Oct.

Looks to me that leave voters are going from Labour to Brexit.

nicky

Labour loses half its Jewish vote since last election.

https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/election-poll-2019-survation-jn/

josh

Their loyalty is to their money.  Pound over country.

NDPP

Corbyn Better Than No-Deal Brexit, Say Investment Banks as 'Anti-Capitalist' Labour Wins Unlikely New City Fans

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/09/03/corbyn-better-no-deal-br...

"...He is now seen as the lesser of two evils by analysts at Citibank and Deutsche Bank, respectively American and German titans of the financial system..."

 

How Business Came to Embrace Jeremy Corbyn

https://www.theweek.co.uk/103134/how-business-came-to-embrace-jeremy-corbyn

"Jeremy Corbyn appears to have more support among business than he does from the wider public. 'The Financial Times' sympathetic overtures to Corbyn also tell us a fascinating story about what has become of Corbynism,' says O'Neill. 'What started life posing as a pro-people movement, as a movement 'for the many, not the few', has ended up being wielded as a weapon against Brexit, against the Democratic will. He came to shake the status quo, but he ended up preserving the status quo against the masses who so badly wanted it and needed it to change..."

NDPP

Climate:

https://corporateeurope.org/en/climate

"Since 2010, just five oil and gas corporations and their fossil-fuel lobby groups have spent at least a quarter of a billion euros buying influence at the heart of European decision-making..."

 

Captured States:

https://corporateeurope.org/en/2019/02/captured-states

"How member states act as a channel for corporate influence..."

NDPP

"Only 43% of Labour-supporting Leave voters still intend to back the party. As Dr Lee Jones argued on The Full Brexit, Labour's shift to Remain is an electoral nightmare."

https://twitter.com/tfbrexit/status/1190307929792090113

josh

nicky wrote:

Labour loses half its Jewish vote since last election.

https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/election-poll-2019-survation-jn/

Who says smear campaigns, which the TOI has been a part of it, can’t be successful.

nicky

It is not a smear if it’s true.

Corbyn himself may not be anti-Semitic but he has ceratainly turned a blind eye to many in his circl3 who are.

 

NDPP

WATCH: Norman Finkelstein on 'completely contrived, fabricated and absurd Labour antisemitism.'

"If Corbyn loses a lot of people in the Labour Party are going to blame it on those Jews who fomented the antisemitism, witch-hunt hysteria. And the big problem there is it's true. Jews were the spearhead of the campaign to stop Corbyn. That's not antisemitism. That's factually based. They played the most aggressive role and the most visible..."

https://rabble.ca/comment/5594706#comment-5594706

For Israel...

josh

Jews were not a big part, Zionists, Blairites and Tories were.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

JKR

josh wrote:

Jews were not a big part, Zionists, Blairites and Tories were.

Seems like antisemitism's also here on Babble.  :(

NDPP

"That's not antisemitism that's factually based." - Norman Finkelstein

JKR

I think antisemites tend to believe that antisemitism is factually based. Why so much focus on "Jewishness?"

NDPP

Why don't you view the Finkestein interview @71 JKR, so as to better understand what he meant when he said what he did?

Ken Burch

nicky wrote:

Labour loses half its Jewish vote since last election.

https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/election-poll-2019-survation-jn/

Which is unjustified, since Corbyn accepted every part of the IHRA guidelines that was necessary.  The only part he didn't accept was the tiny portion of those guidelines which make it impossible to publicly criticize what the Israeli government does to Palestinians, and since it's never antisemitic simply to criticize that, why SHOULD he have adopted those?

Labour has no antisemitism crisis, and there's no reason to silence discussion on the Israel/Palestine issue among Labour members, as the full IHRA guidelines are designed to do.

Ken Burch

JKR wrote:

josh wrote:

Jews were not a big part, Zionists, Blairites and Tories were.

Seems like antisemitism's also here on Babble.  :(

Excuse me, JKR but it's not antisemitic simply to use the word "Zionist" in a post.

Ken Burch

nicky wrote:

It is not a smear if it’s true.

Corbyn himself may not be anti-Semitic but he has ceratainly turned a blind eye to many in his circl3 who are.

 

He's done nothing of the sort and he has no antisemites in his circle.  He expelled Jackie Walker and Ken Livingstone on the issue, even though neither one of them were antisemites(and even though Jackie Walker is Jewish and therefore can't even BE an antisemite).

Stop spreading an indefensible slur, nicky.  Corbyn never deserved to be hounded on this, since he has opposed antisemitism and spoken out against it all his life.

Ken Burch

Why should there ever have been an attempt to restrict what Labour Party members can say about the Israel/Palestine issue at all?  It's not antisemitic to say that what has been done to Palestinians is an indefensible injustice and that, while it isn't technically imperialism it does have an imperialist sensibility to it.  Nor is it antisemitic to argue that the Israeli government has no right to claim to be for peace if it is going to keep working to make the creation of a Palestinian state an impossibility.  

And it's not antisemitic simply to challenge a person who happens to be Jewish when that person is vilifying Corbyn and his supporters for no reason, which is all that ever happened to Ruth Smeeth-if the people who confronted her were Labour members at all, which is debatable.

Nor was Corbyn to blame for the hate messages on Luciana Berger's emails, given that the Metropolitan Police investigation of those messages-which were left two years before Corbyn was elected leader-were left by right-wing thugs?

How, nicky, can you justify vilifying the first decent human being who has led Labour in decades over something he is absolutely innocent of?  Whatever else you might think of the man, how do you justify false accusations?  It's not as though any greater good was ever going to come of Corbyn being attacked into standing down.  And it's not as though anybody you or the PLP would prefer as leader would actually oppose the Tories-none of the Labour MPs who abstained on May's cuts could ever again have any right to claim to be a socialist or even a "social democrat" after doing that.

NDPP

Unfortunately there's still the little problem of his lying...

https://twitter.com/BBCLookNorth/status/862292802708832260

"Can I make it clear? Yes, we accept the result of the referendum. Britain is leaving the European Union. As a country, we had a debate, we had a vote, we made a decision."

 

nicky

The Jewish Labour Group, an affiliative of the Labour Party for more than a century is vastly more authoritative on this subject than you Ken

Not long ago Labour had a lock on the Jewish vote. Now it is downnto 6%. Do you really think this is because they are as deluded as you , although inbthe opposutevdirection, anout antiSemitism flourishing in the Labour Party since Corbyn came to lead it?

Ken Burch

Aristotleded24 wrote:

nicky wrote:
Labour winning the youth votes but getting thumped 6 to one in Corbyn’s age group.

Voting intention among 18-24 year olds
Lab - 38%
Lib Dem - 18%
Con - 16%
Green - 15%
Brexit Party - 5%

Voting intention among 70+ year olds
Con - 58%
Brexit Party - 14%
Lib Dem - 14%
Lab - 9%
Green - 2%

Left-wing parties generally do better among younger voters than older ones. Why is this in particular any evidence of Corbyn being particularly bad? You think Singh or Layton did better with older voters here in Canada?

And there's no possible alternative to Corbyn as leader who'd do better among 70 year-olds, so that statistic is meaningless.

 

Ken Burch

As I've pointed out several times, nicky, Corbyn probably would have stood down if the PLP had been willing to guarantee that there'd be a socialist on the leadership ballot to replace him and if they'd also agree that the next election should be fought on a left-wing platform.

Will you join me here in condemning the PLP for refusing to make such guarantees and for not giving up on their pointless determination to replace Corbyn with a right-winger who'd run on a right wing platform?

josh

nicky wrote:

The Jewish Labour Group, an affiliative of the Labour Party for more than a century is vastly more authoritative on this subject than you Ken

Not long ago Labour had a lock on the Jewish vote. Now it is downnto 6%. Do you really think this is because they are as deluded as you , although inbthe opposutevdirection, anout antiSemitism flourishing in the Labour Party since Corbyn came to lead it?

When did they have a lock on the Jewish vote?  Even Milliband, who is Jewish, was condemned for being insufficently pro-Israel.

NDPP

Given the recent announcement that an executive from the global PR firm Hill & Knowlton Strategies will act as a principal advisor to NDP leader Jagmeet Singh, my research took me here. Most interesting. Whatever Corbyn and UK Labour once were, clearly they are no more as the Brexit betrayal makes abundantly clear. The article goes a long way in illustrating some background to Labour's obvious deterioration, descent and repurposing into a pliant tool for elite management.

The Oligarchs Behind the 'Humanitarian' Regime Change Network Push for UK Labour to Split

https://www.mintpressnews.com/humanitarian-regime-change-jo-cox-uk-labou...

"In light of recent news of UK Labour MPs leaving the party over Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, this October 2018 investigation by Whitney Webb and Vanessa Beeley is more relevant than ever..."

JKR

Ken Burch wrote:

JKR wrote:

josh wrote:

Jews were not a big part, Zionists, Blairites and Tories were.

Seems like antisemitism's also here on Babble.  :(

Excuse me, JKR but it's not antisemitic simply to use the word "Zionist" in a post.

Post #71 uses the word "Jews."

Ken Burch

JKR wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

JKR wrote:

josh wrote:

Jews were not a big part, Zionists, Blairites and Tories were.

Seems like antisemitism's also here on Babble.  :(

Excuse me, JKR but it's not antisemitic simply to use the word "Zionist" in a post.

Post #71 uses the word "Jews."

In a direct quote from Norman Finklestein, who is Jewish.  You're not seriously going to argue that it's antisemitic for a person who himself is Jewish to use that word.

JKR

Here is post #71:

NDPP wrote:


WATCH: Norman Finkelstein on 'completely contrived, fabricated and absurd Labour antisemitism.'

"If Corbyn loses a lot of people in the Labour Party are going to blame it on those Jews who fomented the antisemitism, witch-hunt hysteria. And the big problem there is it's true. Jews were the spearhead of the campaign to stop Corbyn. That's not antisemitism. That's factually based. They played the most aggressive role and the most visible..."

https://rabble.ca/comment/5594706#comment-5594706

For Israel...

.
.
.

I think it's antisemitic to state that Jews are going to suffer a backlash if Corbyn loses the election because Jews "spearheaded" the campaign to stop Corbyn by conjuring up false accusations of antisemitism. It sounds to me like a warning of a deserved pogrom if Corbyn loses. Why should Jews fear being collectively targeted if Corbyn loses the election?

josh

 

https://twitter.com/TomLondon6/status/1190762197552680961?s=20

I am Jewish. Like many Jews I support Corbyn. Sadly the media ignores us. It is true that many in the Jewish community are worried about Corbyn. Appallingly, they have been made fearful by the media & others with NO proper grounds. Jewish community has ZERO to fear from Corbyn.

Ken Burch

JKR wrote:
Here is post #71:
NDPP wrote:


WATCH: Norman Finkelstein on 'completely contrived, fabricated and absurd Labour antisemitism.'

"If Corbyn loses a lot of people in the Labour Party are going to blame it on those Jews who fomented the antisemitism, witch-hunt hysteria. And the big problem there is it's true. Jews were the spearhead of the campaign to stop Corbyn. That's not antisemitism. That's factually based. They played the most aggressive role and the most visible..."

https://rabble.ca/comment/5594706#comment-5594706

For Israel...

. . . I think it's antisemitic to state that Jews are going to suffer a backlash if Corbyn loses the election because Jews "spearheaded" the campaign to stop Corbyn by conjuring up false accusations of antisemitism. It sounds to me like a warning of a deserved pogrom if Corbyn loses. Why should Jews fear being collectively targeted if Corbyn loses the election?

Finklestein is specifically referring to the particular people who launched what they knew was an unjustified campaign against Corbyn.  He never extended what he said there to the entire Jewish community in the UK and he never blamed that entire community.  And being Jewish himself, Finklestein can't actually be an antisemite.  

JKR

Even though he is Jewish, many Jews I know consider Finkelstein to be antisemitic. I would not put him in that category as I'm not very aware of him and his ideas but I'm aware that he has been extremely controversial and often disliked within Jewish circles.

voice of the damned

JKR wrote:

Even though he is Jewish, many Jews I know consider Finkelstein to be antisemitic. I would not put him in that category as I'm not very aware of him and his ideas but I'm aware that he has been extremely controversial and often disliked within Jewish circles.

No, he's not antisemitic at all. What he IS, is a consistent and trenchant critic of Zionism, which these days can get you labeled as antisemitic by those who have a vested interest in doing so.

Finkelstein has also taken aim at certain aspects of the "reparations movement", which has led some to characterize him as a holocaust-denier, because deniers als0 claim that Jewish groups are trying to extort money in the name of compensation. However, Finkelstein is quite clear in affirming that the holocaust happened, given that his parents were both survivors and his extended family all perished.

As this article shows, Finkelstein has some notable backers among very respectable quarters of the Jewish community...

https://tinyurl.com/y5przrmp

 

 

NDPP

On Contact: George Galloway on Populism, Racism and Anti-Semitism

https://youtu.be/dQbFeBGNImc

"Chris Hedges discusses with George Galloway, former UK MP, the state of politics in the UK and USA, racism, Islamophobia and antisemitism..."

nicky

I would have thought that Labour would win Wales into perpetuity.

But Corbyn looks like achieving the impossibility. Driving Wales into the hands of the Conservatives:

http://blogs.cardiff.ac.uk/electionsinwales/2019/10/15/the-october-welsh-political-barometer-poll/

 

Ken Burch

If you actually want a Labour victory, nicky, you have to stop attacking now that the election has been called. It's impossible for a major party in British politics to change leaders during an election campaign and there would be no legitimate way to choose a replacement leader during an election campaign.   No one chosen simply by a vote of the PLP would ever be accepted as leader by the Labour base, especially since the PLP wouldn't choose a successor who supports the socialist values the Labour base is united in backing.

nicky

What nonsense you spout Ken.

do you mean to say that if Corbyn today were run over by the Clapham omnibus that Labour would go into the election without a leader? Surely there are mechanisms to pick a successor. Just as if Corbyn were to do the responsible thing and step aside.

now, I do agree with you that this is unlikely to happen. Corbyn prefers to lead an unelectable irrelevant little sect than see Labour win the election with a less ridiculous leader.

And as for “supports the socialist values the Labour base is united in backing”, what colour is the sky over the planet on which you live?

 Labour united behind Corbyn? Every post you have written in the past four years decries the lack of unity in the Labour Party and the reluctance of vast swathes of the party to believe in the divinity of St Jeremy. There has never been a more divisive Labour leader.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

nicky wrote:

There has never been a more divisive Labour leader.

Correction. There has never been a Labour leader more unfairly vilified and demonized for his socialist policies by all the elites of the U.K, including the disgusting Blairite careerists in the PLP.

josh

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

nicky

Josh! Are you ok?

it looks like you fell asleep over your keyboard

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