The Afghan people are winning - part 8

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Unionist
The Afghan people are winning - part 8

[From previous thread:]

Jingles wrote:

So... whaddya think of the kidnapped American soldier? Did the Taliban lure him into a windowless van while he played with his toy soldiers in the front yard?

I'm pretty sure he's a good guy. [url=http://www.politicususa.com/en/FNC-Bergdahl]Get a load of this:[/url]

Quote:
On Fox News yesterday, guest Lt. Col. Ralph Peters labeled Pfc. Bowe Bergdahl, “an apparent deserter.” He later said that the Taliban should kill Bergdahl, “If he walked away from his post and his buddies in wartime, I don’t care how hard it sounds, as far as I’m concerned, the Taliban can save us a lot of legal hassles and legal bills.”

[SEE THE VIDEO HERE]

Peters said, “I wanna stress first of all that we must wait until all of the facts are in to make a final judgment, but nobody in the military that I’ve heard is defending this guy. He is an apparent deserter. Reports are indeed that he abandoned his buddies, abandoned his post and walked off…Now there’s another problem Julie. On that video he is collaborating with the enemy, under duress or not, that’s really not relevant…He’s lying about how he was captured saying that he lagged behind a patrol….So we know this private is a liar we aren’t sure if he is a deserter, but the media needs to hit the pause button and not portray this guy as a hero.”

Peters said that if he is a deserter, the Taliban should kill him, “I want to be clear. If, when the facts are in, we find out that through some convoluted chain of events, he really was captured by the Taliban, I’m with him. But, if he walked away from his post and his buddies in wartime, I don’t care how hard it sounds, as far as I’m concerned, the Taliban can save us a lot of legal hassles and legal bills.”

I love it when they talk straight.

 

Cueball Cueball's picture

Unionist wrote:

Jingles wrote:

Peters said that if he is a deserter, the Taliban should kill him, “I want to be clear. If, when the facts are in, we find out that through some convoluted chain of events, he really was captured by the Taliban, I’m with him. But, if he walked away from his post and his buddies in wartime, I don’t care how hard it sounds, as far as I’m concerned, the Taliban can save us a lot of legal hassles and legal bills.”

I love it when they talk straight.

Nice people. If there is any truth to the desertion story, then this attitude explains a lot. I'd wanna desert too.

 

Fidel

Why does Unionist repeat this terrible lie with every thread beginning on this same subject? Is he a closet pro-warhawk?  He is obssessed with the blood and gore of this phony war and yet refuses to tell the truth - that no one is winning in this phony war, and especially not ordinary Afghans taking a beating from both of the phony combatants. Deal's off, Unionist. I'll be changing your thread title to something that reflects the truth in Afghanistan, first chance I get. 

Unionist

Moderators advised. Why don't you just go soil some other threads, please.

Cueball Cueball's picture

It's a pact Unionist. Stop responding. If you have a complaint send it by email of PM.

Unionist

sorry...

Fidel

Unionist wrote:

Moderators advised. Why don't you just go soil some other threads, please.

That's two unprovoked personal attacks against me in one week, Unionist. Stop obssessing over me, please. It's very creepy. Posts flagged and moderators alerted.

And I'll be posting relevant RAWA commentaries on what's happening in their own country whether you approve or not. In your ear, white man.

Unionist

[url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8160604.stm]Afghan cities attacked by Taliban[/url]

 

Unionist

Ah, the BBC, with their [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8160516.stm]keen taste for irony:[/url]

Quote:
A British bomb disposal expert has been killed while trying to defuse a homemade bomb in southern Afghanistan.

[emphasis added]

That makes 18 British soldiers in July alone. Time to go home, I think.

 

Fidel

[url=http://www.greenleft.org.au/2009/801/41236]Afghanistan: 'The truth cannot be killed'[/url] Malalai Joya July 4

 

Quote:
"We do not have liberation", Joya said. "These Taliban were created by the US ... in the religious schools in Pakistan, with the support of Saudi Arabia, but the Northern Alliance is also the product of the US government.

 "In the Cold War, they wasted lots of money on them as puppets, but they became like mice when the Taliban came to power. They just crept into their holes.

"But after the 9/11 terrorist attacks, the US again made them wolves -in the skin of lambs to deceive the world.

"The democratic parties are not able to publish magazines, they are underground. . .

"They occupied Iraq because of oil, while they occupied Afghanistan for its geopolitical location. When they have military bases in Afghanistan it makes it easier to assert control against Iran, China, Russia, etc.

"That's why they keep the situation dangerous, to have a reason to have troops stay longer in Afghanistan. It is just a drama, the War on Terror drama."

Unionist

Quote:
“A superpower like Russia could not occupy our country, and the US, whose occupation is a war crime and a mockery of democracy, one day they will face the resistance of my people. Despite the lack of security, after the Farah massacre there were demonstrations in Farah and of students in Kabul — huge demonstrations of people from all provinces.

“No democratic party was behind them, people themselves went out.”

Joya called for solidarity from ordinary people in the occupying countries. “No country can donate liberation to another country. It is our responsibility to bring values like democracy, human rights and women’s rights.

“But with this catastrophic situation we need the helping hand of democratic men and women throughout the world. We don’t want occupation.

Fidel

Quote:
Malai Joya said about the current and therefore relevant situation in her country:

"Our people hate warlords, don't support Karzai and his puppet government of war criminals and drug lords who now want to negotiate with the Taliban. Our people hate the Taliban. . .

"This support gives me responsibility, but also strength and hope. These 30 years in Afghanistan, we almost lost everything but we gained one thing which means a lot. Political knowledge and consciousness. . .

"That's why they keep the situation dangerous, to have a reason to have troops stay longer in Afghanistan. It is just a drama, the War on Terror drama."

"Political knowledge and consciousness" is all theyve managed to salvage from this 30 year-long tragedy. That means more than just counting bodies and blaming the Soviets from a bygone era specifically from your rabid anticommunist point of view littering these threads. It's a phony war and "just a drama, the War on Terror drama"

Frmrsldr

Can anyone point to any people's democracy insurgent groups in Afghanistan? Sadly, I have neither heard nor read of any. As Malalai Joya has also stated, "The Afghan people are caught between the frying pan and the fire." The Afghan people are caught between the U.S. supported Taliban, Northern Alliance warlords (60% of MPs in the National Government come from this group), the Karzai government, and uninvited and unwanted U.S./NATO/ISAF soldiers waging a genocidal war in their country. The Karzai government, along with the U.S. and U.K. governments - is currently seeking negotiations with key Taliban figures to form the next government after the so - called Afghan "elections".

Judging from our actions, Afghanistan is all about greed and power. The plight of the Afghan people, women and children (especially girls needing access to education) aside from their propaganda value, ultimately don't factor into the equasion.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Frmrsldr wrote:

Can anyone point to any people's democracy insurgent groups in Afghanistan?

Not really my business. What is my business is what is done in my name and with my money, in the country which I am presumably responsible for. Presumably, even if there were "pro-democracy" (whatever that means) groups in Afghanistan I highly doubt we would hear from them, since anyone and anything moving and fighting NATO in Afghanistan is automatically grouped as "Taliban" (whatever that is). What I do know is that the Canadian army in Afghanistan is NOT a "pro-democracy" group, and even if it were, I also know that war is not democracy, nor does it create it. War is tyrrany.

So, faced with what appear to be two anti-democracy forces in Afghanistan the alleged "Taliban" and the CAF, I have very limited moral ground on which to base a judgement, except this one: We don't live in Afghanistan; We are not Afghan; Afghanistan is not our country. Therefore, upon this basis, I assert that those who resist the occupation, whatever their specific political beliefs, trump those of non Afghans.

Fidel

It was a Liberal Government that put Canadian troops in Afghanistan, and the Harpers have picked up that ball and are carrying it.

And Canada isnt the only country with troops there. Afghanistan is occupied by troops from over 40 countries. Someone has to initiate peace talks and develop a plan for withdrawal of foreign troops at some point. We cant go on counting bodies and pretend that troop withdrawal is going to happen without some kind of diplomacy.  Certain special interests involved in Afghanistan, the USA and-or their former proxies from 1996-2001, the Taliban,  may not desire peace talks leading to troop withdrawal and cessation of war for whatever reasons, but perhaps they can be convinced if enough countries involved support an initiative leading to a negotitated peace and mediated by the UN as Karzai's political opposition in Kabul have already agreed is necessary.

Negotiations and bargaining in good faith is done all the time in civilized countries when competent people do their jobs. And our vicious toadies in government from start of the decade through today havent been doing their jobs. Theyve deferred any and all executive decisions on the occupation to their bosses in Warshington. Jack Layton and the NDP are true leaders while the other two Washington lap dogs await further instruction from either Uncle Sam  or banks execs here in Canada who apparently instruct them as to when a federal election should happen or not. It must be difficult for Iggy and Harper with so many non-government people telling them what to do and when to do it.

Slumberjack

Had to wade into the dusty NDP archives to find this:

Statement by NDP Leader Jack Layton on Canada's mission in Afghanistan

"New Democrats have a clear, comprehensive vision that moves Canada in the right direction - where our role in Afghanistan is through humanitarian aid, reconstruction, and a comprehensive peace process - not a George Bush-style counter-insurgency war."

Besides Dawn Black's earlier musings about taking it all on the road to Darfur, the NDP's position involves partaking in Hegemony Lite, as opposed to the nastier business of direct counter-insurgency.  The building and protection of potemkin villages in support the US installed puppet regime is apparently a more appropriate task for armed soldiers in Jack Layton's view.

Maysie Maysie's picture

Unionist and Fidel, knock it off.

Learn to ignore each other. This is not a suggestion.

Unionist

I'm not sure if this is hilarious or tragic:

[url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8164046.stm]UK soldier dies in Afghanistan[/url]

Quote:

His death brings to 188 the total UK deaths in Afghanistan since 2001 and is the 19th this month.

The soldier has not been named, and next of kin have been informed.

Lieutenant Colonel Nick Richardson, spokesman for Task Force Helmand, said: "We share in the pain that is felt by his family, friends and colleagues at the loss of this courageous soldier; our thoughts and prayers are with them."

The cynical commanders who send these young people to their death churn out their meaningless phrases and praise - even before they release the name! "Courageous" - we'll tell you who it was later!

Jingles

Quote:
Someone has to initiate peace talks and develop a plan for withdrawal of foreign troops at some point.

That's just it, Fidel, the point you refuse to entertain: that someone is not NATO. It is not Taliban Jack. It is none of our business. Our only obligation, our only moral duty, is to get on the next plane, bus, boat, canoe, donkey, or bicycle and get the fuck out. I really cannot fathom in what sort of fantasy world you inhabit wherein someone like Jack Layton can negotiate or bargain with the powerfully connected mafioso in Afghanistan to create a Utopia.

I can only conclude that you think the people of Afghanistan are incapable of figuring things out for themselves, and need a foreign someone to make everything great for them. I can also only conclude, from you repetative and irrelevant ranting, that the only someone you feel capable of sorting things out is Leonid Breshnev.

Unionist

[url=http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/07/22/afghan-cda-shooting.html][... soldiers murder one Afghan girl; in separate incident, they shoot and wound three Afghan police[/color][/url]

Just read the story. It is too sickening to quote how these trigger-happy murderers behave. Notwithstanding their guns, the Afghan people will surely win.

 

Frmrsldr

Strange how "warning" shots become fatal, isn't it?

The usual ploy of "blame the Afghans" was employed, of course.

remind remind's picture

Quote:
"Misogynistic, patriarchal views are now embodied by the Afghan cabinet, they are expressed in the courts, and they are embodied by President Hamid Karzai."

Yes, there has been lots of good news about girls going to school and women in Parliament – although the latter are mostly pro-warlord and keep silent.

But really, these things mean nothing if they are immolating themselves rather than being married off to old men, if they are attacked with acid on their way to class, if they are imprisoned for being raped only to be raped by their jailers, if they are killed for being outspoken.

All these things are happening now, aggravated by relentless war that displaces and impoverishes people. There's no clean water, no sanitation. Children are diseased and hungry.

Widows, with no marketable skills and less literacy, are forced into prostitution. (And how many NATO soldiers are their customers?) A woman is lucky to make it to 40.

Or not so lucky.

A UN report released this month shows that women face more violence than ever.

And yet there's still legislation in the works that will force the minority Shia women to have sex with their husbands or else starve, a bill that the ever-smiling Karzai approved in order to win the coming election.

The occupation has only managed to make Afghanistan more fundamentalist.

In the new documentary Rethinking Afghanistan, human rights activist Ann Jones, author of Kabul in Winter, recalls Faisal Ahmad Shinwari, the chief justice from 2001 to 2006, declaring that women have two rights.

"One, every woman has the right to obey her husband," she quotes him as saying. "Two, every woman has the right to pray, though not in the mosque. That is reserved for men."

This is what we have supported?

Estimates are, we will be spending $3 billion over this year and next. That's assuming, if experience is any indication, that costs don't spiral.

What a waste.

The only way to bring security is protect the women and children, not with bombs and bullets, armour and airplanes, but with secure schools, clean wells, steady supplies of food and legislation that punishes men, not women.

That's how you change a country.

Canada can do much better.

*bolding mine

 

Jingles

Quote:
steady supplies of food and legislation that punishes men, not women.

When Antonias discovers a food that only women eat, she can let us know. Does she really have any idea what she's talking about? How, exactly, does one "punish men, not women"? Scramble the NASCAR channel? Ban urinals? WTF?

Sounds like a good liberal.

remind remind's picture

Hello, men rape women get punished for being raped.

You apparently have no idea what she is talking about.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Frmrsldr wrote:

Had Bush and Blair provided the Afghan Taliban government information that reasonably established that Osama Bin Laden was the mastermind behind the attack, then the Taliban would have handed him over to the World Court.

But they didn't, because they didn't have any such information.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Awwwwe... Jingles you broke the pact.

Fidel

Yes, cover the kids eyes and ears. This thread is X rated for relentless supporters of Canada's two old line parties and vicious toadies of the empire.

remind remind's picture

The red print is the link it is not bolding

Fidel

Jingles wrote:

Quote:
Someone has to initiate peace talks and develop a plan for withdrawal of foreign troops at some point.

That's just it, Fidel, the point you refuse to entertain: that someone is not NATO. It is not Taliban Jack. It is none of our business. Our only obligation, our only moral duty, is to get on the next plane, bus, boat, canoe, donkey, or bicycle and get the fuck out. I really cannot fathom in what sort of fantasy world you inhabit wherein someone like Jack Layton can negotiate or bargain with the powerfully connected mafioso in Afghanistan to create a Utopia.

I couldnt agree more that it is none of our business. In a perfect world, democracy would reign supreme, and 40 some odd countries would not be occupying Afghanistan militarily. Unfortunately that is not the current reality and never has been. And I'm sure Jack Layton understands this as well.

Actual world scenario:

Whether you believe it or not, Iggy and Harper will do whatever Uncle Sam tells them to. It's what they do. It's their designated colonial administrative duty, and these kinds of menial tasks assigned to the them by Washington are their unwritten obligations. With the Tory and Liberal agenda reigning supreme in Ottawa, Canadians can expect more of their sons and daughters returned home to them in plastic bags from Afghanistan. Murder is the ultimate expression of insanity. Achieving peace is more difficult than most people know. 

Jingles wrote:
I can only conclude that you think the people of Afghanistan are incapable of figuring things out for themselves,

It doesnt matter what I think. Realistically speaking I have zero ability to stop the epic tragedy still unfolding in Afghanistan 31 years after the CIA bgan meddling in Afghanistan. [url=http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/51/104.html]Afghanistan: A Forgotten Chapter[/url] Warning: Not a pro-USSA point of view

We could pullout of Afghanistan, as the NDP has proposed since protesting Paul Martin's vicious toadying for switching Canada's role from that of peacekeepers to one of US-style combatants by 2006. Yanquis imperialists would still be there along with about 38 other countries' militaries. I'm not so naive as to think that peace or prosperity will visit Afghanistan soon. Ordinary people in Afghanistan are not winning after 31 years of US meddling in that country and counting.

Fidel

M. Spector wrote:

Frmrsldr wrote:

Had Bush and Blair provided the Afghan Taliban government information that reasonably established that Osama Bin Laden was the mastermind behind the attack, then the Taliban would have handed him over to the World Court.

But they didn't, because they didn't have any such information.

And they still have no such information. Apparently as far as international law goes, it's too late now to press that point with Washington and NATO. Theyve since received a nod from UN to be there.

But if we are trying to convince ordinary people and voters alike as to what's gone wrong in Afghanistan and why they shouldnt support Ottawa's Liberal-Tory war coalition, then I think the soft underbelly for Ottawa's vicious toadying is probably to ask self-annointed experts and the undecideds [url=http://rabble.ca/babble/international-news-and-politics/noam-chomsky-why... is Canada's military in Afghanistan?[/url] Youll likely receive a wide range of answers and wild guesses. Because if they can't explain why, and their fearless political leaders can't tell them either, then the snakes should start turning on one another at some point.

Jingles

Quote:

Hello, men rape women get punished for being raped.

You apparently have no idea what she is talking about.

That's not what she said. She said:

Quote:
The only way to bring security is protect the women and children, not with bombs and bullets, armour and airplanes, but with secure schools, clean wells, steady supplies of food and legislation that punishes men, not women.

So, now it's Canada's responsibility punish rapists. I see. How does she propose to do this? "Canada can do much better", she says, but doesn't bother saying what that better would be. Is she leaving it up to our US-trained Generals to figure it out? Maybe the women-friendly Harper government can get Jason Kenney working on a plan.

She sounds like Fidel: occupation if necessary, but not necessarily occupation.

She doen't like all the nasty killing and stuff, but still sees a role for Canada. Should we send in the RCMP? They can taser Dostrum. Or they can drive the Taliban to the outskirts of Kabul and make them walk back. Or they can provide explosives and agent provocateurs to goad some young guys into plotting an attack......wait a minute...

remind remind's picture

Attack Antonia eh?

 

Not going down that patriarchial road with you.

NDPP

 Canada should get the hell out of their country immediately if not sooner. We've done quite enough there already thank you very much. These 'solutions' imposed by outsiders have brought nothing but harm. Canada's role in Afghanistan is to invade, occupy and destroy and aside from a few disgusting social work photo ops, what they bring for the Afghan people - women, children and men, is bombs and bullets. If you wish to help the women and people of Afghanistan, make your part of their war go back where it came from.

Fidel

 Whatever the NDP says is wrong according to our non-partisan partisans.

Fidel

Several thousand Taliban are on the verge of victory over the 40 nation military alliance, and NATO's surrender is imminent. No diplomacy needed just more blood and gore and solid as jello combative comments. Pass the body bags, and let's skewer Jack Layton some more, that peacemongering commie leading the effective opposition to the Harper lap poodles and those other warmongering plutocrats propping them up.

NDPP

I don't quite follow how the first sentence which I quite like connects to the rest. By the time I reached Layton and "effective opposition" I was quite lost I must confess.

Fidel

I'm trying to understand it myself. Just remember, this is all Jack Layton's fault. It's easier that way.

Slumberjack

Fidel wrote:
We could pullout of Afghanistan, as the NDP has proposed since protesting Paul Martin's vicious toadying for switching Canada's role from that of peacekeepers to one of US-style combatants by 2006.

The NDP hasn't proposed anything of the sort.  Except for Dawn Black's earlier musings about moving the road show on to Darfur, which doesn't make it party policy btw, what we've actually been witnessing is a shell game where the object is to uncover the word 'mission'  after it's been spun around in front of our eyes.  Chances are we wouldn't find the word under the shell called Khandahar, but certainly under another.  Yes indeed, the current mission would have ended under an NDP government, to be replaced by another more 'constructive' mission somewhere else in Afghanistan.  No official statement that I'm aware of calls for the complete withdrawal from that country.  Not lost on anyone adept at how shell games operate is the realization that any mission in that country collaborates with a foreign occupying force.  Collaboration under another guise remains the essence of NDP policy regarding Afghanistan.

Maysie Maysie's picture

Fidel wrote:
 Yes, cover the kids eyes and ears. This thread is X rated for relentless supporters of Canada's two old line parties and vicious toadies of the empire.

Fidel wrote:
 I'm trying to understand it myself. Just remember, this is all Jack Layton's fault. It's easier that way.

Fidel, you are trolling. 

Stay out of this thread.

 

Ghislaine

remind wrote:

Attack Antonia eh?

 

Not going down that patriarchial road with you.

I don't think he was being patriarchal or attacking Antonia. He was taking issue with some of her statements - which imply that she wants Canada (and others) intervening in Afghanistan, telling them what laws to have, how to train their police, etc, etc, etc.  What Canada needs to do is get out, not change our mission to some other type of control over the Afghans. 

And btw, I really don't think we are the country that can speak with any authority on how to adequately handle rapists.

remind remind's picture

When did we start putting women in jail because they were raped Ghislaine?

 

Ghislaine

remind wrote:

When did we start putting women in jail because they were raped Ghislaine?

 

We don't. But read an Amnesty report about how many countries on this planet do that - or worse such as stoning them to death for it. That is for those countries to figure out. We cannot go intervene in every single country that treats women like garbage and impose our values on them. I wholeheartedly agree that we are lucky to be women in Canada. However, I do not support continued intervention in Afghanistan as a rich Western country telling them how to run their country.

remind remind's picture

What do you not get about Canada is supporting the government  in Afghanistan doing this, plus implimenting other anti-women bills. And it is shameful. So yes we need to get the hell out, but we also owe Afghans much. How to do  all of this is still the question, attcking someone who is at least trying to speak about is not the answer.

Y

 

Unionist

I'm a member of the Zerbiasis fan page on Facebook. She has been courageous and outspoken on many important issues. She's not afraid of the MSM establishment. I admire her for that. This particular column of hers properly condemns the occupation. It exposes some of the lies about the alleged improvement of women's condition under the heavy hand of the invaders and their warlord puppets. If she had just left out her last couple paras where she says what Afghans "need", it would not have been a bad piece - and I agree with Jingles and Ghislaine from that perspective.

It's a reminder that even very progressive people, indeed all of us, have to be careful about telling other nations how they should be running their affairs. We should be especially careful when our own troops are occupying and murdering them. But it doesn't put Zerbisias on the other side of the fence. Her article is light years ahead of the trash coming out of a certain political party in recent months. She is just the kind of ally we need in the MSM, speaking out against the occupation - we need more like her.

 

Ghislaine

remind wrote:

What do you not get about Canada is supporting the government  in Afghanistan doing this, plus implimenting other anti-women bills. And it is shameful. So yes we need to get the hell out, but we also owe Afghans much. How to do  all of this is still the question, attcking someone who is at least trying to speak about is not the answer.

Y

 

remind, I absoluely get that Canada is supporting the government there and that is why I am saying we have to get out immediately - not in 2011. That is what we owe Afghanistan.

I was not attacking you, just stating my opinion that I don't support meddling in the Afghanis country any more or trying to tell them how to run out. We need to leave right away and not try and linger by imposing Western values on them. It is their country to run.  

remind remind's picture

I was talking about attacking Zerbiasis

Ghislaine

ok, well i did not see jingles or myself attacking her. I saw some people taking issue with a couple of her statements, while agreeing with her about ending the occupation. As unionist pointed out, most of her post is excellent.

Frmrsldr

Fidel wrote:

And they still have no such information. Apparently as far as international law goes, it's too late now to press that point with Washington and NATO. Theyve since received a nod from UN to be there.

 

When the U.N. gave the green light for the U.S.A.'s and NATO's war in Afghanistan, which was handed to the U.N. as a post de facto fait accompli, the U.N. contravened its own Charter concerning the declaration and prosecution of an (illegal) aggressive war by other (subordinate) parties.

But then the U.S.A. always gets what it wants anyway by simply ignoring the U.N. and international laws and treaties it is party to. Something about being a Superpower and not being subject to international organizations, laws and treaties like everyone else.

Frmrsldr

Jingles wrote:

She doen't like all the nasty killing and stuff, but still sees a role for Canada. Should we send in the RCMP? They can taser Dostrum. Or they can drive the Taliban to the outskirts of Kabul and make them walk back. Or they can provide explosives and agent provocateurs to goad some young guys into plotting an attack......wait a minute...

Frmrsldr

Frmrsldr wrote:

after their most recent visit to Kandahar, this is the same bullshit both Stephen Harper and Peter MacKay used when they talked about our (fuzzy word) "mission". Our "mission" is going to morph where our soldiers (presumably) are going transform from muderers into little humanitarian angels.

 

Frmrsldr

Maysie wrote:

Fidel wrote:
 Yes, cover the kids eyes and ears. This thread is X rated for relentless supporters of Canada's two old line parties and vicious toadies of the empire.

Fidel wrote:
 I'm trying to understand it myself. Just remember, this is all Jack Layton's fault. It's easier that way.

Fidel, you are trolling. 

Stay out of this thread.

C'mon Maysie, our friend Fidel is not trolling. He is honing his skills in the fine art of sarcasm. No need to kick him out of this public swimming pool of ideas and debate.

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