The Afghan people will win - Part 10

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Frmrsldr

Thanks Webgear.

I'm still confused though, what is the purpose of the Queen (Crown)? What is a soldier swearing allegiance to when it's the Queen (Crown)? To the military laws enacted in the name of the Crown - the Queen's Regulations and Orders?

oldgoat

The GG is simply the representative, or the agent of the Queen in Her Majesty's role as Queen of Canada, a title she holds seperately I might add from Queen of England.  As she stands in for the Queen in every official sense, she gets all the honours.

Frmrsldr

Thanks oldgoat.

So, as a soldier, when Canada goes to war -- who do I hold responsible? If I say, "Hell no, I won't go", whose orders am I ultimately disobeying - to whom does 'the buck stop'. In other words, who has the ultimate political/legal/Constitutional/moral authority/responsibility? To whom am I saying, "No" to?

Frmrsldr

CP wrote:
NATO Secretary General Cancels Trip to Canada

OTTAWA - NATO's secretary general, who recently ruffled feathers by urging Canada to extend its combat mission in Afghanistan beyond 2011, quietly scuttled a planned visit to Ottawa that was supposed to take place over the last few days.

The decision by Anders Fogh Rasmussen to postpone meetings with the Conservative government came as the U.S. turns up the heat on the Netherlands to keep its troops in the wartorn region.

"Public discourse on the effort in Afghanistan has started to go in the wrong direction" said a copy of his Sept. 9 speech circulated ahead of time. "If we were to walk away ... soon there will be terrorists in Afghanistan and attacking from Afghanistan, profound instability in Pakistan and in Central Asia. This is simply a future we cannot allow to happen."

Such remarks - especially if they were repeated in Ottawa - would likely have been incendiary in the current political climate, where the Conservative government's fate hangs by a thread.

Yeah, no kidding.

Note: The Netherlands is scheduled to militarily disengage from Afghanistan in 2010. Canada in 2011. The Netherlands and Canada (thus far) are the only countries that have end dates to their military engagement.

Unionist

[url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8250228.stm]Afghan journalists criticize British raid[/url]

Quote:
Journalists in Afghanistan have heavily criticised a military raid to rescue a British journalist from the Taliban in which his Afghan colleague was killed.

Sultan Munadi, 34, was shot dead in the British-led operation while Stephen Farrell was unharmed. A British soldier and two Afghan civilians also died.

Afghan journalists say the incident has revealed double standards among the international forces in the country.

Mr Munadi's brother told the AFP news agency the raid had been "pointless".

But the British authorities have defended the operation, saying it was the best chance of saving lives.

Mohammad Osman, Mr Munadi's brother, said there had been "no need for this operation at all".

He said the Red Cross, the UN and tribal elders were all involved in "optimistic negotiations" for the release of Mr Munadi and Mr Farrell "when all of a sudden this raid took place". [...]

Bari Salam, an editor for Afghan public radio, told the BBC the death of Mr Munadi was "the most shocking event to date involving the international forces".

He said Afghans had previously seen the Taliban as being the biggest threat to lives and to the development of democracy in Afghanistan, but that now "it is the internationals who are stepping over all those values".

Mr Salam said there were "strong indications that Sultan was shot by the British forces".

"We know now that he was not on the list of people to be rescued by this rescue operation. Simply, he was left alone," he said.

Frmrsldr

Mullah Wakil Ahmed Muttawakil is an Afghan you should get to know:

httP://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/i-told-the-us-to-talk-to-the-talib...

US RISKS AFGHAN SOVIET FAILURE

Says Zbigniew Brzezinski:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8251944.stm

SparkyOne

Warning graphic video (somewhat)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUsu9SKz7zk

 

What a load of crap.

Obviously this video was done for properganda reasons. Do american's really expct us to believe that they are worried about a child being in their crosshairs?

That they are waiting to shoot because a kid is around? Bullshit. I bet that's not even the origional voice, it's dubbed.

And why would they even shoot at these guys? The roads over there can't be as good as ours. Could they possibly be just repairing a hole in the road? Yup! When is fixing a road a crime?

NDPP

Tears of Fire: Mourning in the Macabre Killing Fields of Afghanistan

http://www.chris-floyd.com/component/content/article/1-latest-news/1839-...

"I took some flesh home and called it my son.."

...why we fight

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

NoDifferencePartyPooper wrote:

The Frontier Post Editorial: 'Rivers of Blood': The West Could Care Less for Deaths of Afghans

">http://worldmeets.us/thefrontierpost000034.shtml

I disagree. The West couldn't care less for deaths of Afghans.

Fidel

Canada: doctor Evil's mini-me northern colony. Hurtig's Russian, I mean rushing to Armageddon is a good one. Our shameless stooges should be made to walk the plank, keel hauled, tied to an anchor and club-hauled on a reef.

Unionist

This op-ed appeared today under the signature of Colin Kenny, Chair of the Senate Standing Committee on National Security and Defence:

[url=http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Retreat/1989072/story.html]

Retreat!

It is time for Canadians to face the fact that we are unable to achieve our goals in Afghanistan [/url]

Quote:

[O]ur initial assumption - that the Taliban was a spent force - proved to be a pipe dream. Canada and its NATO allies do not have time and space on our side. Our troops are fighting a highly motivated, resilient opponent on its own turf, where military intruders had never sniffed success. The British invaded in the 19th century and failed badly; the Soviets in the 20th century, and got pounded. The British failure was one component of the death of the British empire; the Soviet failure was a huge component in the death of its empire. [...]

What we hoped to accomplish in Afghanistan has proved to be impossible. We are hurtling toward a Vietnam ending.

Our troops have performed magnificently against huge odds. But we are not close to achieving our objectives, and there is no sign that we will.

Prime Minister Harper should do the right thing, and start moving toward a word no soldier likes to hear, but that is sometimes the only intelligent thing to do. That word is retreat.

Bravo!

 

Slumberjack

Number 130

Pte. Patrick Lormand, 21, of the 2nd Battalion, Royal 22nd Regiment based in Quebec City, was killed and four others were injured in a roadside blast from an improvised explosive device on Sunday afternoon, the military said.

Unionist

Quote:
A retaliatory NATO airstrike that killed scores of civilians. The kidnapping of New York Times journalist Stephen Farrell. The deadly shooting of his Afghan translator and the death of a British soldier in a violent and controversial rescue operation days later.

The events of this week have drawn attention to the unraveling security in northern Afghanistan in a way months of the creeping insurgency had not.

Long considered one of the most stable and peaceful parts of the country, the northern provinces have seen rising violence as heavy insurgent activity has spread to 80 percent of the country – up from 54 percent two years ago. (See map.) Under increasing pressure in southern Afghanistan and northern Pakistan, militants who have long sought to extend their reach have turned their attention to the north, where NATO has established a second supply route in the wake of debilitating attacks on its southern pipeline.

[url=http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0911/p06s08-wosc.html]Christian Science Monitor[/url]

 

remind remind's picture

yes, unionist I watched a report on that last evening, followed by comments from MacKay stating that Kenny's words were not helpful and should be dismissed outright.

Unionist

remind wrote:

yes, unionist I watched a report on that last evening, followed by comments from MacKay stating that Kenny's words were not helpful and should be dismissed outright.

I missed that, remind, but [url=http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/09/13/afghanistan-kenny.html][=... are comments by MacKay, Robert Fowler, and Stephen Staples[/color][/url]:

Quote:

Defence Minister Peter MacKay said Kenny's comments do a disservice to the Canadian soldiers, diplomats and aid workers risking their lives in Afghanistan.

"Speaking negatively and making these types of inflammatory comments is simply counterproductive and doesn't help," MacKay said.

"It is really hard to see why we should be putting the lives of young Canadians at risk anymore when we're not seeing the product at the other end," Kenny told CBC News.

And Kenny isn't alone. Robert Fowler, a retired Canadian diplomat who survived an al-Qaeda kidnapping while working for the United Nations in Africa, has also questioned Canada's continued presence in Afghanistan.

"It strikes me as rather extreme that one goes out and looks for particularly complex misery to fix," Fowler said in an interview last week with CBC anchor Peter Mansbridge. "There's lots of things to fix that can be done more efficiently and probably more effectively."

Those opinion shouldn't be ignored, said international affairs expert Steven Staples.

"Senator Kenny is someone who has followed this mission closely," said Staples, president of the Rideau Institute on International Affairs in Ottawa. "I would describe him as the hawkish end of the Liberal party. But now that he has made this assessment and come out publicly calling for a retreat, I think that's very significant."

If MacKay doesn't like the idea of "RETREAT!", may I recommend him for deployment on the front lines?

 

NDPP

Afghanistan: 'Necessary' War for Empire

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/09/14-4

"Afghanistan was sold to the public on multiple fabrications, including defeating Al Qaeda, building democracy, stopping heroin, fighting terrorism, and liberating Afghan women. Not one of these reasons is remotely close to the truth.."

ps good thing the elites are beginning to sour on the Afghan mission since god knows the antiwar movement doesn't seem up to much of anything at all..

 

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Slumberjack wrote:

Number 130

19.2 percent, or almost one in five, of those 130 Canadian deaths, have occurred on a Sunday.

Frmrsldr

"We are making real measurable progress." - Stephen Harper on Afghanistan.

Here's the "proof": Money mouth

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/13/AR200909...

http://news.antiwar.com/2009/09/14/us-hopes-iraq-style-militias-can-brin...

antiwar.com Jason Ditz wrote:
And while the US insists the Taliban are "nervous" about the strategy, it hints of more than a little desperation by Western forces who have been unable, in eight years, to train the Afghan military into anything remotely capable of taking the insurgency on. If nearly a decade and billions of dollars couldn't build a meaningful pro-West military in Afghanistan, what do they imagine people with three weeks training working on the promise of a $24-a-month food allowance will be able to accomplish?

derrick derrick's picture

NDP quiet on Afghanistan's fraudulent election: "The hypocrisy of the Conservative government's response is par for the course. More disturbing, however, is the fact that the NDP is missing in action, again, on the Afghanistan file..."

 

remind remind's picture

Think Layton spoke in Halifax, about the need to pull our miltary out now and bring them home. So I am not too sure on "how missing" they are.

Frmrsldr

Report: Gen. McChrystal seeking another 40,000 troops for Afghanistan:

http://news.antiwar.com/2009/09/16/report-gen-mcchrystal-seeking-another...

Unionist

derrick wrote:

NDP quiet on Afghanistan's fraudulent election: "The hypocrisy of the Conservative government's response is par for the course. More disturbing, however, is the fact that the NDP is missing in action, again, on the Afghanistan file..."

 

From derrick's article:

Quote:
The NDP's regular statements about Canadian soldiers killed in Kandahar no longer make mention of the party's policy of calling for bringing the troops home.

Unionist

[url=http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/09/17/kabul-blast017.html][=gree... blast kills 10 civilians, plus "unknown number" of NATO forces[/color][/url]

Quote:

A suicide car bomb hit vehicles carrying foreign troops near the U.S. Embassy and an American military base in Afghanistan's capital Thursday, killing at least 10 people and wounding dozens of others, officials said.

The suicide bomber rammed his explosives-filled car into two vehicles of the NATO-backed international force, said Abdul Ghafar Sayedzada, head of Kabul's criminal investigations unit. [...]

Sayedzada said foreign forces also were killed but he did not know how many.

Webgear

The attack killed 6 Italian soldiers, 17 Afghan civilians, and wounded at least 52 Afghan civilians as of 07:15 AM(centeral time).

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Even Tarek Fatah is now calling for Canada's withdrawal from Afghanistan. But it's only because he's disgusted that we're losing the war against the "jihadists".

I won't link to his sour-grapes National Pest editorial, but those with strong stomachs can find it there easily enough. 

Unionist

[url=Canadian">http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/09/17/afghanistan-soldier-killed.html... soldier killed (number 131), 11 others wounded[/url]

And Berlusconi is turning tail - a good role model for his brother-in-crime Harper:

[url=Italian">http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2009/09/2009917224348326988.html]... PM calls for Afghan exit[/url]

Quote:

The Italian prime minister has called for international forces to withdraw from Afghanistan, after a suicide attack in the capital Kabul killed six Italian soldiers.

"We are keen to bring our boys home as soon as possible," Silvio Berlusconi said on Thursday as he arrived for an EU summit in Brussels.

The Afghan people are winning!

 

SparkyOne

Unionist wrote:

[url=Canadian">http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/09/17/afghanistan-soldier-killed.html... soldier killed (number 131), 11 others wounded[/url]

And Berlusconi is turning tail - a good role model for his brother-in-crime Harper:

[url=Italian">http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2009/09/2009917224348326988.html]... PM calls for Afghan exit[/url]

Quote:

The Italian prime minister has called for international forces to withdraw from Afghanistan, after a suicide attack in the capital Kabul killed six Italian soldiers.

"We are keen to bring our boys home as soon as possible," Silvio Berlusconi said on Thursday as he arrived for an EU summit in Brussels.

The Afghan people are winning!

 

 

Umm, what? The afghan people are DYING

 

You call that winning?

 

Frmrsldr

Unionist wrote:

[url=Canadian">http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/09/17/afghanistan-soldier-killed.html... soldier killed (number 131), 11 others wounded[/url]

And Berlusconi is turning tail - a good role model for his brother-in-crime Harper:

[url=Italian">http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2009/09/2009917224348326988.html]... PM calls for Afghan exit[/url]

Quote:

The Italian prime minister has called for international forces to withdraw from Afghanistan, after a suicide attack in the capital Kabul killed six Italian soldiers.

"We are keen to bring our boys home as soon as possible," Silvio Berlusconi said on Thursday as he arrived for an EU summit in Brussels.

The Afghan people are winning!

Hey, if Italy, why not Japan?

http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/world-mainmenu-26/asia-mainmenu-...

Even the U.S.A. is adopting a 'go slow' policy toward Afghanistan:

http://wire.antiwar.com/2009/09/17/gop-seeks-afghan-war-info-gates-urges...

"The president on Wednesday said he would 'take a very deliberative process' in making decisions on Afghanistan. Obama said he will finish his broad assessment of military, diplomatic, civilian and development efforts there before moving on to his next step - mulling additional deployments." ....

.... "Congress is divided over the question of more troops and the public has grown tired of the war as violence in Afghanistan has soared to record levels and record numbers of U.S. troop deaths. Fifty-one troops were killed in August, making it the deadliest month since the U.S. invasion in October 2001."

 

Unionist

SparkyOne wrote:

 

 

Umm, what? The afghan people are DYING

 

You call that winning?

 

Yeah, SparkyOne, in this world of "lesser" people being told how to live by our invading armies and rapacious corporations, you sometimes have to give your life to achieve freedom. Anyway, if you don't believe they're winning, just wait a bit and we'll resume this discussion.

 

martin dufresne

A few words from Susan Sarandon for CODEPINK:

There is nothing more powerful than hearing someone speak from their heart.
That is why I was so moved by
Barbara Lee's passionate speech on the floor of Congress September 14, 2001, eight years ago this week. She was the only member of Congress, in both the House and Senate, to have the courage to vote no against authorizing war in Afghanistan. Her voice shakes with emotion, but she stands her ground with strength and grace and the knowledge that she is speaking the truth that desperately needed to be heard. Her's was the only voice of compassion, of reason, during such a charged and painful time. When she said "Let us not become the evil that we deplore," she knew the quagmire that would result from such military engagement.

This week, many of us took inspiration from Barbara Lee and used our own voices to speak out against our woefully misguided war in Afghanistan. As one woman, she spoke for many of us eight years ago. This week, we each have the opportunity to follow her lead and channel the outrage and hope of everyone who wants us out of Afghanistan; each day, we flooded the blogosphere and phone lines and opinion sections of newspapers with the words that need to be heard about why we need to end our involvement in Afghanistan. If you haven't already, you can still use these tools from CODEPINK to make your voice loud and clear.

One of the best bumper stickers I've ever seen says "Speak your truth, even if your voice shakes." If you haven't ever blogged or called your Congressperson before, now is the time to do so, even if your voice shakes. It is up to us to remember Barbara Lee's brave example, her voice trembling with deeply felt conviction. We need more Barbara Lees to speak out against war. We can be those Barbara Lees, ourselves. We are the ones we've been waiting for. When we speak together from the heart, we truly can change the world.

In solidarity,
Susan Sarandon

Women Say No to War

Unionist

[url=Pte">http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/09/18/couturier-ramp-ceremony-jonatha.... Jonathan Couturier - latest to die in Afghanistan - thought the mission was "useless"[/url]

Quote:
"That war, he thought it was a bit useless, that they were wasting their time there," [his brother Nicolas Couturier] was quoted telling Le Soleil. [...]

The soldier's sister-in-law and his brother's spouse, Valerie Boucher, also told the newspaper Jonathan "didn't want to go" and was very much looking forward to coming home.

Nicolas Couturier was also critical of the Afghanistan mission, saying it "is not serving anything."

The family's comments, coming on the same day Couturier's body was flown from Kandahar on its way to Canada, sparked a reaction from political leaders, with the Bloc Québécois's defence critic saying he agrees with the family.

"I endorse the comments of the young man and I endorse the comments of his family," said Claude Bachand.

The New Democratic Party has also been critical of the mission in Afghanistan, but MP Joe Comartin said Couturier's death was not in vain.

"It's hard to say to the family, was this a waste? I don't say that to them because I don't believe that," Comartin said outside the House of Commons.

"On the other hand, we've done more than our share. Canadians have done more than their share in terms of contributing our soldiers. The faster we get out of a combat mission and just deal with other issues that we can deal with, the better it will be for the whole country."

Webgear

Unionist

"On the other hand, we've done more than our share. Canadians have done more than their share in terms of contributing our soldiers. The faster we get out of a combat mission and just deal with other issues that we can deal with, the better it will be for the whole country."

What do you think Mr Comartin meant by this portion statement?

Fidel

The Afghan people will win

==

Thanks for that subtle but important thread title alteration, Unionist. We all hope that Afghans do win and the sooner the better for all of them.

Frmrsldr

Unionist wrote:

[url=Pte">http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/09/18/couturier-ramp-ceremony-jonatha.... Jonathan Couturier - latest to die in Afghanistan - thought the mission was "useless"[/url]

Quote:
"That war, he thought it was a bit useless, that they were wasting their time there," [his brother Nicolas Couturier] was quoted telling Le Soleil. [...]

The soldier's sister-in-law and his brother's spouse, Valerie Boucher, also told the newspaper Jonathan "didn't want to go" and was very much looking forward to coming home.

Nicolas Couturier was also critical of the Afghanistan mission, saying it "is not serving anything."

The family's comments, coming on the same day Couturier's body was flown from Kandahar on its way to Canada, sparked a reaction from political leaders, with the Bloc Québécois's defence critic saying he agrees with the family.

"I endorse the comments of the young man and I endorse the comments of his family," said Claude Bachand.

The New Democratic Party has also been critical of the mission in Afghanistan, but MP Joe Comartin said Couturier's death was not in vain.

"It's hard to say to the family, was this a waste? I don't say that to them because I don't believe that," Comartin said outside the House of Commons.

"On the other hand, we've done more than our share. Canadians have done more than their share in terms of contributing our soldiers. The faster we get out of a combat mission and just deal with other issues that we can deal with, the better it will be for the whole country."

The sentiments expressed by the soldier and his family are diametrically opposed to the bullshit blah blah-ed by Brig. Gen Jonathan Vance and other members of the war party.

Unionist

Webgear wrote:

Unionist

"On the other hand, we've done more than our share. Canadians have done more than their share in terms of contributing our soldiers. The faster we get out of a combat mission and just deal with other issues that we can deal with, the better it will be for the whole country."

What do you think Mr Comartin meant by this portion statement?

Unfortunately, he meant the well-known retreat of the federal caucus from the 2006 convention decision, which was "interpreted" as meaning withdrawal, not from Afghanistan, but from the "combat mission", or "active counterinsurgency", with an attempt to specify the south. It meant keeping our troops in Afghanistan to "train" and provide "security" and, of course, to do all the phoney non-existent BS "reconstruction" work which they wouldn't know how to do if it bit them on the backside.

But I'm happy to see that a brave 23-year-old Quebecker, with a sense of humour, figured it out for himself and characterized it more eloquently than any of our politicians or kiss-ass Governors-General have done so far. Just before he was killed for the greater glory of Her Majesty, he called it:

"USELESS."

Do we have any politicians of mettle who will stand up and use simple words?

 

Webgear

What was the discussion last month at the Halifax convention?

Was there a change in the NDP plan?

I doubt any politician around today uses simple words.

Frmrsldr

Webgear wrote:

Unionist

"On the other hand, we've done more than our share. Canadians have done more than their share in terms of contributing our soldiers. The faster we get out of a combat mission and just deal with other issues that we can deal with, the better it will be for the whole country."

What do you think Mr Comartin meant by this portion statement?

"The faster we get out of a combat mission and just deal with other issues that we can deal with, the better it will be for the whole country.", is suffiently vague that it could mean anything from our troops will remain, but the mission will morph from aggressive combat to our troops engaging in reconstruction, redevelopment and humanitarian aid to 'passive' defense (protection) of NGOs and humanitarian aid groups doing the work (a slippery slope scenario) to our troops not being there - only NGOs and humanitarian groups or Canadians being anywhere else but Afghanistan through to finally, Canadians dealing with issues we can deal with in Canada and Canada only.

How are you, I or Unionist to know? You'd have to ask the original author of that comment - Mr. Comartin.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Robert Fisk wrote:

It is instructive to turn at this moment to the Canadian army, which has in Afghanistan fewer troops than the Brits but who have suffered just as ferociously; their 130th soldier was killed near Kandahar this week. Every three months, the Canadian authorities publish a scorecard on their military "progress" in Afghanistan - a document that is infinitely more honest and detailed than anything put out by the Pentagon or the Ministry of Defense - which proves beyond peradventure (as Enoch Powell would have said) that this is Mission Impossible or, as Toronto's National Post put it in an admirable headline three days' ago, "Operation Sleepwalk". The latest report, revealed this week, proves that Kandahar province is becoming more violent, less stable and less secure - and attacks across the country more frequent - than at any time since the fall of the Taliban in 2001. There was an "exceptionally high" frequency of attacks this spring compared with 2008.

There was a 108 per cent increase in roadside bombs. Afghans are reporting that they are less satisfied with education and employment levels, primarily because of poor or non-existent security. Canada is now concentrating only on the security of Kandahar city, abandoning any real attempt to control the province.

Canada's army will be leaving Afghanistan in 2011, but so far only five of the 50 schools in its school-building project have been completed. Just 28 more are "under construction". But of Kandahar province's existing 364 schools, 180 have been forced to close. Of progress in "democratic governance" in Kandahar, the Canadian report states that the capacity of the Afghan government is "chronically weak and undermined by widespread corruption". Of "reconciliation" - whatever that means these days - "the onset of the summer fighting season and the concentration of politicians and activists for the August elections discouraged expectations of noteworthy initiatives...".

Even the primary aim of polio eradication - Ottawa's most favored civilian project in Afghanistan - has defeated the Canadian International Development Agency, although this admission is cloaked in truly Blair-like (or Brown-like) mendacity. As the Toronto Star revealed in a serious bit of investigative journalism this week, the aim to "eradicate" polio with the help of UN and World Health Organization money has been quietly changed to the "prevention of transmission" of polio. Instead of measuring the number of children "immunized" against polio, the target was altered to refer only to the number of children "vaccinated". But of course, children have to be vaccinated several times before they are actually immune.

[url=http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fiskrsquos... Independent[/url]

Frmrsldr

M. Spector wrote:

Robert Fisk wrote:

Canada is now concentrating only on the security of Kandahar city,....

 

[url=http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fiskrsquos... Independent[/url]

(Bolding added). This exposes the government's and military's lie that the Canadian "mission" is morphing to one of reconstruction, redevelopment and humanitarian aid. The reference to the Dahla dam shows the cynicism of the government. It's going to take longer than 2011 for that dam to be fixed and have additional reconstruction added to it after that.

 

 

martin dufresne

Assassins in office and cowards at the polls. Keeping that oil and that opium coming.

Jingles

Quote:
What was the discussion last month at the Halifax convention?

Was there a change in the NDP plan?

I doubt any politician around today uses simple words.

So, Webby, will you be the First Canadian soldier to stand up and say "No way". Will you go public and state, unequivocally, that you will not participate in an illegal and immoral occupation of Afghanistan?

Or will you go back, just so you can get that next ribbon, or because you like making Harper rich?

Break the seal, dude. Tell the DND, very publicly, to shove their "mission" up their asses. 

That's courage.

Frmrsldr

Jingles wrote:

Quote:
What was the discussion last month at the Halifax convention?

Was there a change in the NDP plan?

I doubt any politician around today uses simple words.

So, Webby, will you be the First Canadian soldier to stand up and say "No way". Will you go public and state, unequivocally, that you will not participate in an illegal and immoral occupation of Afghanistan?

Or will you go back, just so you can get that next ribbon, or because you like making Harper rich?

Break the seal, dude. Tell the DND, very publicly, to shove their "mission" up their asses. 

That's courage.

Very cool, Jingles. That's what Corporal Paul Demetrick did.

Webgear

 

Jingles, no I will not be the first. I don't believe what we are doing to be illegal or immoral.

 

I believe we could be operating in a more effective manner, I believe that Canadian and NATO leadership is poor at times. I still believe in the mission.

Frmrsldr

Webgear wrote:

Jingles, no I will not be the first. I don't believe what we are doing to be illegal or immoral.

I believe we could be operating in a more effective manner, I believe that ... leadership is poor at times. I still believe in the mission.

Yeah, these are the arguments of the champions of the great 'lost cause' like the American South in the Civil War or the Vietnam War or ...

Webgear

Frmsldr

Can you expanded on your last point?

Frmrsldr

So you think that if we operate in a more effective manner we will accomplish WHAT in Afghanistan?

What, precisely, is our mission in Afghanistan?

Bush, Blair, Chretien and the others cynically sent our troops to fight, get injured and die in Afghanistan knowing beforehand that we weren't going to win. I mean it wasn't like we had the examples of Vietnam or the Soviet Afghan War or anything.

If these leaders hadn't learned anything from history, then they are even more stupid than I give them credit for.

 

 

NDPP

For Many Britons, the Party Game is Over

http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=548

"The Afghan war is a fraud. It began as an American vendetta for domestic consumption in the wake of the 11 September 2001 attacks, in which not a single Afghan was involved. The Taliban, who are Afghans, had no quarrel with the US and were dealing secretly with the Clinton administration over a strategic pipeline. They offered to apprehend Osama Bin Laden and hand him over to a clerical court but this was rejected.

The establishment of a permanent US/NATO presence in a resource-rich strategic region is the principal reason for the war...The game is over. Corporatism and a reinvigorated militarism have finally appropriated parliamentary democracy, a historic shift.."

Frmrsldr

"The army officer, Capt. Robert Semrau, will face a court-martial on charges of second-degree murder, attempting to commit murder, negligence and behaving in a disgraceful manner, the Canadian Defense Department said in a statement."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/19/world/americas/19canada.html?_r=1&ref=...

Unionist

This Semrau was the scumbag who was reported by an eyewitness to have murdered an unarmed and gravely wounded insurgent, and then was immediately released on bail.

I see now that the other scumbags haven't even charged him with first-degree murder. Perhaps he only intended to wound him again, but not kill him?

I stand by [url=my">http://www.rabble.ca/babble/international-news-and-politics/afghanistan-... first reaction[/url] from January:

Quote:
He must have accidentally shot some U.S. agent being groomed to infiltrate the insurgents. Otherwise, wouldn't they be giving him a medal?

You may wish to read the following posts to see babblers saying Semrau is presumed innocent (we're referring to an armed Canadian shooting people in Afghanistan) and justifying the release on bail of someone who, if the prima facie evidence is upheld, is a dangerous murdering sociopath.

 

martin dufresne

Ann (Kabul in Winter, 2002) Jones, just back from Afghanistan:

Meet the Afghan Army
Is It a Figment of Washington's Imagination?
By Ann Jones, TomDispatch.com/AlterNet

The big Afghanistan debate in Washington is not over whether more troops are needed, but just who they should be: Americans or Afghans -- Us or Them. Having just spent time in Afghanistan seeing how things stand, I wouldn't bet on Them.

Frankly, I wouldn't bet on Us either. In eight years, American troops have worn out their welcome. Their very presence now incites opposition, but that's another story. It's Them -- the Afghans -- I want to talk about.

Afghans are Afghans. They have their own history, their own culture, their own habitual ways of thinking and behaving, all complicated by a modern experience of decades of war, displacement, abject poverty, and incessant meddling by foreign governments near and far -- of which the United States has been the most powerful and persistent. Afghans do not think or act like Americans. Yet Americans in power refuse to grasp that inconvenient point.

In the heat of this summer, I went out to the training fields near Kabul where Afghan army recruits are put through their paces, and it was quickly evident just what's getting lost in translation. Our trainers, soldiers from the Illinois National Guard, were masterful. Professional and highly skilled, they were dedicated to carrying out their mission -- and doing the job well. They were also big, strong, camouflaged, combat-booted, supersized American men, their bodies swollen by flack jackets and lashed with knives, handguns, and god only knows what else. Any American could be proud of their commitment to tough duty.
(...)

 

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