The Afghan people will win - part 16

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Left Turn Left Turn's picture
The Afghan people will win - part 16

Left Turn Left Turn's picture

[url=http://rabble.ca/babble/international-news-and-politics/afghan-people-wi... Thread[/url]

 

[url=http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/davemarkland/2010/01/afghan-peace-moveme... Afghan peace movement[/url]

Quote:
The Kunar incident sparked at least three major protests in Afghanistan. On Dec 30, protests attracting hundreds of demonstrators were held in Kabul and Jalalabad, the major eastern Afghan city and gateway to Pakistan and on Dec 31 some 1,500 protesters hit the streets of Asadabad, capital of Kunar province.

NDPP

Why We Fight: US Special Forces Kill 10 [more] Afgan Civilians

http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/rawagallery.php?mghash=dc96d38caecd6694e...

Afghan Taliban Say No Links With Pakistani Taliban

http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=26457

 

Fidel

[url=http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/Afghanistan/article6971638.e... handcuffed children in Afghanistan[/url]

Quote:
American-led troops were accused yesterday of dragging innocent children from their beds and shooting them during a night raid that left ten people dead.
Afghan government investigators said that eight schoolchildren were killed, all but one of them from the same family. Locals said that some victims were handcuffed before being killed.

I think the bastards are trying to create enemies where there are none. Motherfuckers!

NDPP

Serial Catastrophes in Afghanistan Threaten Obama Policy

http://www.juancole.com/

"The past two weeks have seen the situation in Afghanistan deteriorate palpably, raising significant questions about the viability of the Obama-McChrystal plan for the country. THe chain of catastrophes has been reported in piecemeal fashion, but taken together these events are far more ominous.."

Frmrsldr

Surge in casualties predicted in Afghanistan:

General Barry McCaffrey (retired) wrote:

Americans should prepare to accept hundreds of U.S. casualties each month in Afghanistan during spring offensives with enemy forces.

What I want to do is signal that this thing is going to be $5 billion to $10 billion a month and 300 to 500 killed and wounded a month by next summer. That's what we probably should expect. And that's light casualties, [says] McCaffrey, who is also president of his own consulting firm in Arlington, Va., and has conducted numerous trips to the war zones to assess the political and military challenges at hand.

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/01/army_casualties_010410w/

PraetorianFour

Generals are always oh so in touch with what's going on.

Frmrsldr

Well, in the case of Barry McCaffrey, we shall see.

If we go by recent events, the earlier 21,000 troop surge in Afghanistan caused an escalation in the level of violence and an escalation in U.S. and NATO casualties. This allows us to make the relatively safe prediction that this current 30,000 troop surge will do the same.

My question remains to those who support the war: What is it about Afghanistan that makes this war so attractive?

To paraphrase Immanuel Kant, "While it cannot be said that war is not a universal evil, it can be said, without contradiction, that peace is a universal good."

SparkyOne

I'm editing my post.

I apologize P4. Another poster here just made me realize how unfair I was being making jabs at you and how spiteful it made me look. You didn't deserve my comments.

NDPP

Suicide Claims More US Military Lives Than Afghan War

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/jan2010/suic-j06.shtml

"The toll of military suicides last year was the worst since records began to be kept in 1980.."

PraetorianFour

NP Sparky

That suicide figure is scary. Is there a publihed figure for Canadian soldiers and suicide rate? There have been a few suicides overseas with Canadians but we don't seem to officially call it suicide. I know I've never seen the S word used. We just seem to call it non-combat related death.

NDPP

Military Suicides Up in 2008 (Canada)

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/10/27/11546446-cp.html

Perhaps murdering for money doesn't sit well with some participants..

 

PraetorianFour

NoDifferencePartyPooper wrote:

Military Suicides Up in 2008 (Canada)

Perhaps murdering for money doesn't sit well with some participants..

 


I know! Why even join the army in the first place??

The Suicide rate in the Canadian Forces in 2008 was 23 per 100'000.
What was the national average suicide rate per 100'000. of Canada?
If that's too broad what was the suicide rate in Ontario per 100'000?

NDPP

The West's Afghan War: From Conquest to Bloodbath

http://globalresearch.ca//index.php?context=va&aid=16839

"When the commander in Kabul asked Obama for extra troops, he knew the US would end up with one achievement, and that is more civilian casulties.

Every time an American soldier is killed they bomb an entire village.

This thing is going to be 5-10 Billion dollars a month and 300 to 500 killed and wounded a month by next summer. That's what we probably should expect.

And that's light casualties."

Afghan Resistance Statement: To Ban Ki Moon on Civilian Casualties:

http://occident2.blogspot.com/2010/01/afghan-taliban-response-to-united....

"UN Secretary Genarl Ban Ki Moon, in his recent assertions has said that at most 20 percent of civilian casualties in Afghanistan are caused by America and her allies and 80 percent by armed opposition. His assertion comes amidst demonstrations and protests against civilian casualties perpetrated by Americans.

Ironically, the head of an august world body like the UN claims to be neutral. He then brazenly tramples UN principles through his remarks in order to please the White House rulers.."

I don't think my war criminal MP is paying very much attention  to these matters. Is yours? If 'the Afghan people will win' - a lot more of them are going to die first.  If and when they 'win', it will likely not be because of any help from Canada. On the contrary...

Frmrsldr

NoDifferencePartyPooper wrote:

I don't think my war criminal MP is paying very much attention  to these matters. Is yours? If 'the Afghan people will win' - a lot more of them are going to die first.  If and when they 'win', it will likely not be because of any help from Canada. On the contrary...

The MP for my riding is Stockwell Day. So, the answer is most definitely, "No!" He gives those one sided and misleading quarterly government "Afghan Progress Reports". The local paper doesn't even believe them. The report ran under the heading "Change in Afghanistan" rather than "progress" because we are not making progress. Rather, we are regressing in Afghanistan - making things worse, not better, for Afghans.

NDPP

Bombing the Land of the Snow Leopard - The War on Afghanistan's Environment

http://www.counterpunch.org/frank01072010.html

"Shipping off 30,000 more troops to the land of the Taliban may be infuriating to devoted antiwar activists, but the toll the Afghanistan war is having on the environment should also force nature lovers into the street in protest..."

NDPP

Afghan Cost Passes $525,000 Per Soldier

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Afghans+cost+passes+soldier/2423127/...

"It costs taxpayers about $525,000 a year to keep one Canadian soldier in Afghanistan.

Tally doesn't  include salaries or equipment..."

Doug
Fidel

It's almost, I say it's almost as if they are deliberately creating new enemies. Why would they do this? They want to win hearts and minds,  and to win "the war on terrorism", don't they?

Frmrsldr
Frmrsldr

Fidel wrote:

It's almost, I say it's almost as if they are deliberately creating new enemies. Why would they do this? They want to win hearts and minds,  and to win "the war on terrorism", don't they?

This war, in many ways, is like another guerrilla war - the Philippine American War 1898-1902. In order to win, in both cases, it looks like the U.S. opted/is opting to fight a genocidal war:

http://afghanistan.blogs.cnn.com/2010/01/07/past-war-offers-afghanistan-...

Fidel

Frmrsldr wrote:
This war, in many ways, is like another guerrilla war - the Philippine American War 1898-1902. In order to win, in both cases, it looks like the U.S. opted/is opting to fight a genocidal war:
http://afghanistan.blogs.cnn.com/2010/01/07/past-war-offers-afghanistan-lessons-and-its-not-vietnam/
The United States also won because it didn't just rely on military might. They found strong, local allies, historians say. They did so through a tactic called the "policy of attraction," according to a State Department account of the war. Under the policy, the United States introduced social reforms, economic development and permitted some forms of self-government. The policy won over key elites and other Filipinos, the State Department says. The United States also found local allies on the battlefield. It created an auxiliary Filipino military force called the Philippine Scouts to take on Filipino guerilla fighters, historians say

"Policy of attraction"? [url=http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2010%5C01%5C10%5Cstory_10-... denies secret talks with Taliban[/url]
Quote:
To a question, the British foreign secretary said he had never claimed Al Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden was in hiding in Pakistan, "but the Al Qaeda leader was also not in Afghanistan".

To another question, Miliband said his country would not ban the Hizbul Tehrir, as "we do not have any proof against the Hizbul Tehrir".


The Taliban played dirty with the Yanks when they asked for proof of bin Laden's guilt in 9/11. Later they offered to deliver bin Laden to them several times. I think Afghans and Pakistanis deserve more transparent and accountable negotiations between NATO, Taliban, and Saudi mediators. Who are the monarchist Saudis and ISI to mediate clandestine discussions with the Taliban on behalf of a nation of people led by a corrupt US-backed stoogeocracy? The whole thing stinks to high heaven.

NDPP

Special Report: Dr. A'fia Siddiqui in Bagram Facing Trial For Attacking CIA Torture Squad

http://www.veteranstoday.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=10088

"Next week, a mother of 3 children is facing trial for supposedly wrestling an M16 away from a CIA torture squad and trying to kill them. How did the CIA get her? They bought her..."

remind remind's picture

Canadians, our crimes against humanity are growing, and it is pretty damn sickening, literally..... after listening to CTV bleat about the Olympics and watching John Baird puttting out  a arrogant pufff piece, only to find that  compliant Canadian media  have obscuring this autrocity:

 

Western troops accused of executing 10 Afghan civilians, including children

Quote:
American-led troops were accused yesterday of dragging innocent children from their beds and shooting them during a night raid that left ten people dead.

Afghan government investigators said that eight schoolchildren were killed, all but one of them from the same family. Locals said that some victims were handcuffed before being killed.

The allegations of civilian casualties led to protests in Kabul and Jalalabad, with children as young as 10 chanting “Death to America” and demanding that foreign forces should leave Afghanistan at once.

President Karzai sent a team of investigators to Narang district, in eastern Kunar province, after reports of a massacre first surfaced on Monday.

“The delegation concluded that a unit of international forces descended from a plane Sunday night into Ghazi Khan village in Narang district of the eastern province of Kunar and took ten people from three homes, eight of them school students in grades six, nine and ten, one of them a guest, the rest from the same family, and shot them dead,” a statement on President Karzai’s website said.

Assadullah Wafa, who led the investigation, said that US soldiers flew to Kunar from Kabul, suggesting that they were part of a special forces unit.

 

 

remind remind's picture

Oops.... Doug already posted the link to the autrocities committed by "US lead" troops.

 

What a red herring p4, as how quaint of them to courtmartial people for basically minimal crimes...thereby giving them the latitude to cover up other, with red herring plausible denability, such as what you have just undertaken.

 

It is no damn wonder attacks against the military and media, have accelerated, as the media is complicit in the cover ups.

 

And as I said in another thread, we now know why Harper prorogued when he did too.

PraetorianFour

Frmrsldr wrote:

The two sources of information are Afghan witnesses and NATO.

Who are you going to believe?

Frmrsldr, who do YOU believe?

Can you put your hand over your heart and say yes I believe US Soldiers dragged Afghanistan children out of their bed and exicuted them?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,576646,00.html
3 US navy seals are being court marshaled currently. They captured a high ranking Taliban [Or Al quaida, i don't even know. Objective Amber] and after he was in custody they roughed him up. Someone punched him in the face and gave him a fat or bloody lip. That's the extent of damage this man is claiming. No broken nose, crushed fingers, hulimiation like in that US tourture prison.
He was given a fat lip. His lawyer complained that they broke the geneva convention, commited a war crime and now 4 of the US's top "assassins" are being court marshaled.

The government is willing to drag it's special forces community through the mud over a fat lip yet you're telling me that 8 children were dragged from their bed and murdered and it's going to get swept under the rug?

I understand this thread is dedicated to Bad Canada supporting bad NATO in the bad US lead occupation but really?

I'm always open minded when I hear news articles. Both sides lie, we know that.
Remember this image? These two bullets hit this womans house following a US raid..
[img]http://whatthecrap.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/captsgekwe52140807225824p...

We can get back to the bad Canada and US in Afghanistan thread now but I hope if you believe the US is murdering children over there you step up and at least try to do something about it.

PraetorianFour

remind wrote:

It is no damn wonder attacks against the military and media, have accelerated, as the media is complicit in the cover ups.

Are you saying the Taliban in Afghanistan are now specifically targeting media because the media is covering up war crimes?

remind remind's picture

Seems so, could not say forsure though, but I do not want to smoke and mirrors this new autrocity and cover up, by having a side bar discussion about it in this thread.

 

PraetorianFour

Canada pulling out of Afghanistan in 2011?
https://www.merx.com/English/SUPPLIER_Menu.asp?WCE=Show&TAB=1&PORTAL=MER...

Quote:
This opportunity is open to companies of all NATO Nations and is intended to formulate
a list of interested bidders to be invited to submit a firm price associated with the construction of new accommodations for 240 persons in area Canada 9 for the Canadian Contingent at Kandahar Airfield in Afghanistan.

The estimated cost for this opportunity is in the order of $2,650,000.00 (CAD).

Also to be used by Canadians; another building being currently constructed at the airfield which costs an estimated 10 Million.

Doug

Frmrsldr wrote:

The two sources of information are Afghan witnesses and NATO.

Who are you going to believe?

 

Both have reasons to make things up for their benefit.

Frmrsldr

Doug wrote:

Frmrsldr wrote:

The two sources of information are Afghan witnesses and NATO.

Who are you going to believe?

Both have reasons to make things up for their benefit.

Osama Bin Laden lured the U.S.A. and the rest of us into Afghanistan. Bin Laden is angered at all the affronts the U.S.A. has perpetrated against Islamic countries. The Afghan war from Bin Laden's perspective is to turn the hurt back on the U.S.A. and anyone else stupid enough to get involved in this war. Bin Laden doesn't care about the Afghan people.

The U.S.A. started the Afghan war to get Bin Laden, vengeance for 9/11 and to get its hands on the Caspian Sea basin oil to the exclusion of Russia, China and India. Like Bin Laden, the U.S.A doesn't care about the Afghan people either.

The net result is foreigners (unasked, uninvited and unwanted) are waging war for ulterior purposes and innocent Afghan civilians are the ones who are suffering the most through death, injury and the destruction of their country, their homes, their economy and livelihoods.

What are THEY (the Afghan people) "making up" precisely and in what way, exactly, are they "benefitting"?

Anyone remember Captain Richard Semrau?

Frmrsldr

PraetorianFour wrote:
Frmrsldr wrote:

The two sources of information are Afghan witnesses and NATO.

Who are you going to believe?

Frmrsldr, who do YOU believe? Can you put your hand over your heart and say yes I believe US Soldiers dragged Afghanistan children out of their bed and exicuted them? http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,576646,00.html 3 US navy seals are being court marshaled currently. They captured a high ranking Taliban [Or Al quaida, i don't even know. Objective Amber] and after he was in custody they roughed him up. Someone punched him in the face and gave him a fat or bloody lip. That's the extent of damage this man is claiming. No broken nose, crushed fingers, hulimiation like in that US tourture prison. He was given a fat lip. His lawyer complained that they broke the geneva convention, commited a war crime and now 4 of the US's top "assassins" are being court marshaled. The government is willing to drag it's special forces community through the mud over a fat lip yet you're telling me that 8 children were dragged from their bed and murdered and it's going to get swept under the rug? I understand this thread is dedicated to Bad Canada supporting bad NATO in the bad US lead occupation but really? I'm always open minded when I hear news articles. Both sides lie, we know that. Remember this image? These two bullets hit this womans house following a US raid.. [img]http://whatthecrap.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/captsgekwe52140807225824p... We can get back to the bad Canada and US in Afghanistan thread now but I hope if you believe the US is murdering children over there you step up and at least try to do something about it.

Yes, I do believe that U.S. soldiers murdered Afghan children. Note that articles covering this event state that U.S. soldiers believed that there were insurgents in that village and that they believed they were dealing with possible insurgents. Nowhere do the articles state that there actually were insurgents in the village at the time of the assault - so you can't blame insurgents for murdering those individuals. The forensic evidence - the bodies tell the world the ages and indentities of the slain. Sounds to me like a Phoenix type operation that went wrong.

It's more than just bad U.S.A., bad Canada, bad NATO, bad ISAF, bad Osama Bin Laden, bad Al-Qaeda, bad Taliban, etc. It is BAD WAR period.

I won't give you too many details, but I'll drop you some hints: I use the name Frmrsldr because I was given a 'voluntold' honorable discharge from the Army because top brass didn't dig what I had to say about the war.

Google the name Corporal Paul Demetrick and read his antiwar letter sent to the Toronto Star.

NDPP

NATO - Led Soldiers Kill 10 Protesting Civilian Deaths:

http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/2010/01/12/afghan-foreign-forces-kill-te...

"Ten people were killed and 35 others wounded as NATO led soldiers opened fire on residents protesting civilian deaths.."

NDPP

Afghanistan: NATO Intensifies Its First Asian War

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=16959

"The US has the mightiest and most lethal military arsenal in human history at its disposal and the world's second largest standing army (only China's having more troops). It intends to spend over $700 Billion next year on its defense budget and will continue to add on special appropriations for the wars in Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere.

It also is in charge of the world's first global military bloc NATO, which is participating with the US in an expanding war in Asia with forces from over a quarter of the world's nations under its command."

Frmrsldr

Experts on Afghanistan doubt survey on foreign occupation. Results are impossible:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/13/afghanistan-experts-doubt_n_422...

PraetorianFour

Frmrsldr wrote:
Google the name Corporal Paul Demetrick and read his antiwar letter sent to the Toronto Star.

Good read. I remember this fellow, man he pissed a lot of people off! I think he had a hell of a back bone for speaking his mind I just think he didn't always fact check.
I wonder having never been to Afghanistan himself the accuracy of his commerades claims about bombing entire villages. I distinctly remember getting shot at and mortared from villages and having to STFU and ignore it because we didn't have the man power to go into the village and we sure as shit weren't going to shoot at the village.
I've caught a soldier I worked with posting on facebook about how we would randomly shoot into building windows in the city to try and keep snipers heads down while we moved through. Total bullshit. Young soldiers [especially reservists] seem to have a need to embellish their war stories. Lots of pressure on them at their home unit to return these big super commando war heros. Someone taking a couple of shots at you quickly turns into a full scale mrket garden type battle pretty quick when people get home and have a few beers in them.

I'll save it for another thread since this isn't the place. Frmslrd if you want to open a new thread about the accuracy of war stories or PM me about it or something that would be cool. I wouldn't mind hearing from Paul and getting a no bullshit account about what he heard either. Sounds like he has an interesting story, I'd like to hear how his peers treated him afterwards.

Frmrsldr

PraetorianFour wrote:
Sounds like he [CPL Demetrick] has an interesting story, I'd like to hear how his peers treated him afterwards.

I'm a buddy of his. He was well liked when he was in the Army. His peers treated him fine. It was/is the officers who went into damage control and use him as a talking point to scare the shit out the others not to do what he did.

The whole thing exposes the lie about our fighting to promote democracy in Afghanistan and to protect it here at home - freedom of speech being a fundamental and necessary component of democracy.

With Gen. Stanley McChrystal's COIN strategy, he is trying to reduce civilian deaths. During 2006 - 2007 CBC reported on civilian deaths in villages from either Canadian artillery or American artillery that were called in by Canadian units. I also remember a CBC report on improved artillery rounds that were more accurate and would reduce casualties. Some officer was interviewed about that.

It seems however, the weapons of choice are attack helicopters and ground attack planes, (USAF and RAF), used mostly by Americans and occasionally called in by Canadians or sent to assist Canadian troops.

With the COIN strategy, troops are going to be more in close proximity with Afghan civilians in urban areas. With the U.S. troop surge, more American soldiers are going to be operating alongside Canadian soldiers. In both cases, this will result in an increase of Afghan civilian casualties - mostly from explosives and small arms fire.

Fidel

[url=http://www.thestar.com/Opinion/article/513548]Soldier says it's time to end Afghanistan war[/url] by Corporal Paul Demetrick, 2008

Quote:
"I love my country just like anybody else. But when I hear of things our troops have done in Afghanistan, I have to ask, "What kind of legacy do we wish to leave behind?" Some examples: we respond to hostile fire by indiscriminate bombing and shelling of villages, killing innocent men, women and children; we fire white phosphorus shells (a chemical weapon outlawed by the Geneva Conventions due to the horrific way it burns human beings) into vineyards where it was known Afghan insurgents were deployed; we hand over prisoners of war to Afghan authorities, who torture them; and we shoot and kill a 2-year-old Afghan boy and his 4-year-old sister. Do we want to be remembered for hating, killing and destroying, or caring, healing and helping with reconstruction?

The war in Afghanistan is a lie" ...

 

NDPP

Sounds like truth to me - good on him for telling it. Let's hear from more like him and get the hell out of this dirty US war.

NDPP

Afghan Resistance Statement: Response of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan Concerning Desecration and Martyrdom of Innocent Civilians

http://al-tawbah.blogspot.com/2010/01/response-of-islamic-emirate-of_15....

"Americans have been trampling down religious, social, cultural and economic rights of the people under the notorious name of The War on Terror in order to bring people under their colonialist tentacles..

God willing we will give them unforgettable lessons for their crimes.

However, we remind people of the world that the world and Islamic Ummah are grappling with a crisis..

This crisis will come to an end only when the public of the world and the Islamic Ummah rise against the antihuman colonialist crimes of America and her invading allies.."

NDPP

I already posted this to the war criminals thread:

Afghan Government Demands Arrest of 'Death Squad'

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article24403.htm

"Kai Eide UN representative to Afghanistan confirmed the Afghan government's investigative conclusions that US troops handcuffed and then executed eight students enrolled in grades 6 through 10 in a night raid on December 27, 2009..."

Frmrsldr

PraetorianFour wrote:
Frmrsldr wrote:

The two sources of information are Afghan witnesses and NATO.

Who are you going to believe?

Frmrsldr, who do YOU believe?

NATO: U.S. troops shot civilian protesters in Afghanistan's Garmsir District:

Jason Ditz wrote:

NATO has denied the Tuesday incident, but confirmed the Wednesday incident. It insists the Tuesday shootings are "under investigation" while the Wednesday shootings involved appropriate escalation against unarmed civilians.

http://news.antiwar.com/2010/01/15/nato-us-troops-shot-civilian-proteste...

Were Afghan children executed by U.S.-led forces? And why Aren't the media interested?

http://www.zcommunications.org/zspace/commentaries/4107

NDPP

ACLU Obtains List of Bagram Detainees:

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/49278

"the list contains the names of 645 prisoners who were detained at Bagram in September 2009.."

how many handed over earlier by Canada I wonder?

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Quote:
Ignoring or downplaying Western crimes is a standard feature of the corporate Western media. On rare occasions when a broadcaster or newspaper breaks ranks and reports 'our' crimes honestly, it is instructive to observe the response from the rest of the media. Do they follow suit, perhaps digging deeper for details, devoting space to profiles of the victims and interviews with grieving relatives, humanising all concerned? Do they put the crimes in perspective as the inevitable consequence of rapacious Western power? Or do they look away?

WERE AFGHAN CHILDREN EXECUTED BY US-LED FORCES? AND WHY AREN'T THE MEDIA INTERESTED?

Rand McNally

“The Afghan people will win”

 

I have been lurking for a while and this thread tile and content have been bugging me.

 

Why?

 

Because the title does not match the content.  Based on the posts it is the “will the West fail”, or the “the West has done bad things in Afghanistan” thread. I am not say that either of these would not be valid or of value, however they are separate from the question will the Afghan people win. As far as I can see there is never any attempt to define a winning condition for the Afghan people, except as the US et al, leaving. However I don’t think that is what defines a winning condition for the Afghan people.

 

The West has really just picked a side in a previously existing civil war. Their entry into the civil war brought the insurgent force into power and made the governing side into insurgents. Regardless if the West stays or leaves, or if the Taliban regains power or not, I think the sad truth here is the Afghan people will lose. Ten years from now, regardless of the degree of involvement the West stills has in Afghanistan the majority of the people will live in absolute poverty, be illiterate, have little chance to change their social position, and will be subject to random violence and corruption. Right now the UN development index places Afghanistan second from the bottom, third if you assume that Somalia, for which there is no current data, still comes in lower. I think the sad truth is that is if things go very well for Afghanistan, and possibly bad for somewhere else, Afghanistan could in ten years move up a couple places, in which case the people would still be losing.  Of course it could get worse.

 

I don’t have an answer on how the Afghanistan gets to a place were the people will win, but most of what this thread is about is simply picking a side in the civil war, not about the people winning. The people were not winning under the Taliban, they are not winning under the current government, and I am afraid they will not likely win under whatever exists post Western intervention.  If the West is gone, I am afraid the suffering of the Afghan people will simply drop off the radar for most people, in the same way that it dropped off the radar after the Russians left. 

 

Unionist

Rand McNally wrote:
As far as I can see there is never any attempt to define a winning condition for the Afghan people, except as the US et al, leaving.

Correct.

Quote:
However I don’t think that is what defines a winning condition for the Afghan people.

That's because you apparently feel (from reading your whole post) that the Afghan people are impoverished helpless violent savages who, without someone's benevolent assistance, are doomed to failure.

 

Quote:
The West has really just picked a side in a previously existing civil war.

What utter tripe. "The West" has invaded and dominated and pillaged Afghanistan for several centuries - and the Afghan people have always won by driving them out in disgrace (British, Soviets...). The same sorry fate is upcoming for what you hygienically call the "West". Just watch.

Oh, by the way, you may wish to document for us the alleged "civil war" that raged prior to the Soviet invasion and concomitant U.S. intervention via proxy groups. Just because Afghans are such a desperately hopeless lot (from your eagle's nest anyway) doesn't mean they can begin to match the mass internecine slaughter engaged in every few years by your "West".

And "the West" hasn't just "picked a side". I pick a side when I cheer for the Habs. I don't pick a side by invading the arena and locker rooms, murdering the opposing team and any fans that get in the way.

Frmrsldr

Rand McNally, war kills, destroys and harms. No one benefits (ie., "wins") from it.

Rand McNally

"you apparently feel (from reading your whole post) that the Afghan people are impoverished helpless violent savages"
Yup, that is what I was going for, happy you could read my mind and distil out my true racist intent.

Saying that I think that the people will be still subject to violence, poverty or any other misfortune, is not the same as blaming the people or calling them violent or helpless or savages.

“The West" has invaded and dominated and pillaged Afghanistan for several centuries - and the Afghan people have always won by driving them out in disgrace (British, Soviets...). The same sorry fate is upcoming for what you hygienically call the "West". Just watch.
Oh, by the way, you may wish to document for us the alleged "civil war" that raged prior to the Soviet invasion and concomitant U.S. intervention via proxy groups. Just because Afghans are such a desperately hopeless lot (from your eagle's nest anyway) doesn't mean they can begin to match the mass internecine slaughter engaged in every few years by your "

Oh, give me a better title than the West, would it work better if I substituted imperialist fascist/communist/colonialist war-mongers.

Yes, there is lots of history, I never denied than, but, was simply referring to the current situation. Was there a civil war here before we got involved for this round of intervention, yes. Did we pick a side yes, would you be happier if I used actively supported a side. I am not saying Afghanistan will be still one of the worst places on earth to live in a decade because the people are dumb, savage, or stupid. I am saying that there has been so much damage done by years of intervention and civil war, I think it will be for a long time before the average Afghan WINS. I thought maybe I could for a moment rather than just using Afghanistan anti-Western punching bag, we could take a minute to remember that it is filled with real people, who a decade from now regardless how our involvement end will still be suffering the effects. I fear that by then most Canadian’s interest in the matter will have moved on, and most of us won’t care what the conditions the Afghan people are living under.

I think you read my post in such a way to purposely take offence, maybe you could try and reread it and consider that I never intended to degrade the people of Afghanistan in anyway.

By the way the USSR invaded in reaction to Mujahideen attacks against the socialist government. The civil war pre-dates the Russian invasion. Of course the central government was Soviet supported.

Rand McNally

Rand McNally, war kills, destroys and harms. No one benefits (ie., "wins") from it."

Care to show me where I stated the benefits of war.  I don't see where I stated anything like that. 

Unionist

Rand McNally wrote:
Saying that I think that the people will be still subject to violence, poverty or any other misfortune, is not the same as blaming the people or calling them violent or helpless or savages.

Thanks for the clarification. Then if it's not their inherent violent or savage nature, what will (according to your unsubstantiated forecast) stop them from making progress after 10 years of being left alone by foreign invaders? The weather? Their lack of natural resources? Inadequate entrepeneurial spirit? Sun spots?

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Yes, there is lots of history, I never denied than, but, was simply referring to the current situation.

There is something very sad about that statement. Sort of like bemoaning the crumbling buildings and spreading disease in Port-au-Prince today, while not noticing the earthquake last week... let alone the foreign intervention and debt burden which aggravated the conditions for natural and human disaster.

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Was there a civil war here before we got involved for this round of intervention, yes.

Ummmmmmmm, I asked you document your statement. Repetition doesn't qualify as documentation. Of all the terrible things happening under Taliban rule, a raging civil war was the one I never heard of. Was it one of those secret civil wars - "need to know" only?

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I think you read my post in such a way to purposely take offence, maybe you could try and reread it and consider that I never intended to degrade the people of Afghanistan in anyway.

What offends me is your view that "we" need to ponder solutions for the Afghan people which they themselves are not capable of implementing if left alone. If I didn't know you and your intentions better, I'd say that views like that closely resemble the justifications given since time immemorial for colonial and imperial interventions. You know, it's just simply bloody amazing how people manage to survive once the Great White Thoughtful Benefactors have left or been driven out bleeding and screaming. I'll just never get over it.

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By the way the USSR invaded in reaction to Mujahideen attacks against the socialist government.

It's a wonder that Poland, China, and the NDP didn't send troops and tanks also. Socialism in peril from religious fanatics! Surely, all "socialists" must rise and fight! International law? Aggression? A mere trifle.

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The civil war pre-dates the Russian invasion. Of course the central government was Soviet supported.

My understanding is that the British wars of invasion in the 19th century were also defensive in nature - they were aimed at defending the cricket-playing Afghan regimes of that time from violent anti-cricketers, and helping women and girls go to cricket school. Had the civilized British philanthropists not been destroyed and run away in tears from the unsportsmanlike Afghan hordes, who knows how well Afghanistan would be doing in international matches today!!

Rand McNally

Unionist, either am am doing a very poor job of expressing my self or your are purposely being obtuse and looking for reasons to be offend.

"Then if it's not their inherent violent or savage nature, what will (according to your unsubstantiated forecast) stop them from making progress after 10 years of being left alone by foreign invaders? The weather? Their lack of natural resources? Inadequate entrepeneurial spirit? Sun spots?"

Well. let me amplify the the conditions that I mentioned in my first post. Mass illiteracy, poor health service, little industrial base, generations of wars, endemic corruption, and nepotism in the political class. I am sure that will all be turned around in no time. You refer to my unsubstantiated forecast, however you make your own, that the west will be driven out, I think you are likely right, driven out is a strong word, they will get tire of the fight and leave is more likely, but in the end your likely right. Canada has already stated it is tired of it and will start disengaging. So you made you prediction, I made mine, a decade from now Afghanistan will be still be in the bottom ten nations on the UN's development index. You know something, I think I will be right as well, do you disagree? 

"I asked you document your statement. Repetition doesn't qualify as documentation. Of all the terrible things happening under Taliban rule, a raging civil war was the one I never heard of. Was it one of those secret civil wars - "need to know" only?"

You actually asked me to document the civil war prior to the Soviet invasion, not in the Taliban period. That is why I mentioned the Mujahideen attacks against the socialist government. They were fighting the central government before the Soviets rolled in. However since you asked about the Taliban period, the Northern Alliance was formed in 1996, Wikipedia, I know not the best info source, but I thing good enough for here, has an article called civil war in Afghanistan (1996-2001) Not secret or need to know at all.  

"What offends me is your view that "we" need to ponder solutions for the Afghan people which they themselves are not capable of implementing if left alone."

Were do I say anything like this, I state i think regardless of what happens with western involvement, Afghanistan's people will not likely win. This thread focuses on the west losing, not the Afghan people winning. I nowhere say we need more western intervention to help them or that we in the west need to do something. I think you are read in stuff that is not there.

"My understanding is that the British wars of invasion in the 19th century were also defensive in nature"

You act as if I am justifing the Soviet invasion, you asked if there was civil war before the soviet invasion, I said yes, I am not defending the soviet or the British before them. You asked a question I answered. 

Is there some reason that you want so badly to be offended by my post. Is there some reason why you think this will all turn out far better than I predict. I would be delighted of a decade from now the Afghan people are living under vastly superior conditions, but I don't think it will happen, with or without western intervention. 

 

  

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