Belarus: Imperialists Run the Same Tired Old Script...

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NDPP
Belarus: Imperialists Run the Same Tired Old Script...

Belarus: Imperialists Run the Same Tired Old Script Day After Day

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/55457.htm

"The Western establishment narrative managers always follow the same patterns. Just like they fixated on Hong Kong protests, while ignoring those in US-aligned France or Israel, now they're cheering on protests in Belarus. It's gotten to the point where it's the exact same international political news story every single day, and that news story reads as follows:

'US-centralized empire tries to grow larger by absorbing a nation which is fighting to maintain its military, financial, economic and/or resource sovereignty..."

 

"Ukrainian World Congress calls on the International Community to Stand with the People of Belarus who have clearly expressed their desire for change, just as the people of Ukraine did during the Revolution of Dignity in 2014..."

https://twitter.com/UWCongress/status/1293153781308424192

 

Francois-Phillippe Champagne

https://twitter.com/FP_Champagne/status/1294692245870870529

"I just spoke with Svetlana Tikhanovskaya, opposition leader of Belarus. I reaffirmed Canada's commitment to the people of Belarus and that we are closely monitoring the situation on the ground as we consider next steps..."

 

Steve Kaufmann: Reply to FP Champagne

https://twitter.com/lingosteve/status/1294860676364566529

"The people of Belarus are unhappy with their president. This doesn't mean that they want unfriendly relations with Russia nor that they want to join the EU. Western countries have to tread a careful line."

They won't. The colour-revolution 'steering' has already begun...

 

 

 

NDPP

"To the Trump administration, Congress and the World at large: Beware of 'little green men' from Russia going into Belarus to stop protests against a rigged election. The people of Belarus deserve better."

https://twitter.com/LindseyGrahamSC/status/1294362271800532994

 

WATCH: "The US government and western corporate media outlets that echo it are currently trying to launch coups in Belarus, Iran, Venezuela, Nicaragua, etc, claiming that they are 'authoritarian'...while authoritarian US police beat the hell out of peaceful protesters..."

https://twitter.com/BenjaminNorton/status/1295041354385547264

NDPP

Lukashenko Promises Fresh Elections in Belarus after New Constitution is Adopted via Nationwide Referendum

https://on.rt.com/aoff

"...In a seeming about-face, Lukashenko told striking workers in Minsk that he would agree to a new vote - both parliamentary and presidential - but only after the nation adopts a new constitution via a referendum..."

NDPP

Dimitry Yarosh, founder of fascist Right Secktor in Ukraine, admits training nationalist militants for Belarus since 2000

https://twitter.com/LubimayaRussiva/status/1294014809600557061

 

"The flag of Belarus' WWII era Nazi collaborator regime was pretty sparse up to a few days ago. I'm sure this too is 'spontaneous' like everything else, but whatever the explanation - only have to look at neofascist resurgence in Ukraine, Poland, Lithuania to see where this leads."

https://twitter.com/MarkAmesExiled/status/1295154612903858178

 

NDPP

Craig Murray: Updated Belarus

https://twitter.com/CraigMurrayOrg/status/1295272270064164866

"There is a misperception in western media that Lukashenko is Putin's man. That is not true; Putin views him as  an exasperating and rather dim legacy. There is also a misperception in the west that Lukashenko really lost the recent election. That is not true. The West is trying to engineer a popular opposition in Belarus toward a 'color revolution', fairly obviously. But they are on a sticky wicket. Western Ukraine was genuinely enthusiastic to move toward the West and the EU in the hope of attaining a consumer lifestyle. Outside of central Minsk, there is little such sentiment in Belarus..."

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

Jacobin has an interview with 2 left activists in Belarus. If they are telling the truth, the situation is considerably more complicated than the above posts would indicate. A small sampling of the discussion:

Jacobin wrote:
I don’t see similarities between these protests in Belarus and previous protests in Eastern Europe. Some try to find similarities with Euromaidan in Kiev in 2014, but this is a purely ideological tool to justify Lukashenko and show that no alternative is possible. In contrast to Euromaidan, Belarusian protests have no big far-right groups that lead and use violence. We have a couple of ultras gangs, but after Euromaidan, most of them were repressed by the police. In Belarus, there’s no language and ideological conflict, as in Ukraine. Finally, in contrast to Euromaidan, the Belarusian protests have no leader: traditional opposition figures are in jail, and the presidential candidate Sviatlana Tikhanovskaya is in Lithuania. I am absolutely sure it can’t lead to war like in Donbass: there’s no ideological conflict between West and East, as in Ukraine in 2014.

...

The party of the Left “A Just World” split from the Communist Party in 1996 after Lukashenko’s first referendum shifted the balance of power toward the president. Today, it stands against both Lukashenko and against Western-oriented opposition. The Belarusian Green Party, founded in 1994 and oriented against nuclear energy, developed a left and anti-authoritarian agenda. It is quite strong and, in contrast to A Just World, is less oriented on Marxist-Leninist classics. Also, we’ve got three social-democratic parties, some of whose members do have strong social orientations, but most are part of the Western-oriented oppositional establishment.

Belarus used to have a big and strong anarchist movement, maybe the strongest in post-Soviet space, connected to a punk-hardcore scene. Some of them infiltrated the Green Party; some ended up in jail. It is hard to say anything about anarchists’ activity now, because they are still the main target of repression. Some anarchist groups don’t call themselves “left-wing,” for they wrongly associate it with pro-Soviet “tankies”; some find their support from the Western-oriented nationalist opposition.

Finally, a Russian fashion of “Left YouTube” and Marxist kruzhki (small self-education organizations) reached Belarus in recent years. Unfortunately, much of their content is not so much about their own agenda but a fierce criticism of the Western-oriented opposition. They charm their viewers with Soviet nostalgia or Soviet ressentiment more than propose a positive agenda for building a wide democratic social movement. This Left YouTube and kruzhki are not bad in themselves, but they can’t be seen as the only strategy for the Left, such as they often propose.

...

VA

What is the attitude of these various groups to this political conjuncture and the protests?

KK

Part of the Left is ready to directly support the liberal protest, mostly at the level of grassroots activist involvement and statements. Another part believes that the people have the right to protest, that the police violence is unacceptable and outrageous, and that the elections were rigged, but cannot take the side of the liberal opposition. For its goals are to continue the privatization of enterprises, to curtail free medicine, and introduce even more labor flexibility than we have now.

Recently, a small grassroots initiative has emerged with a purpose of bringing economic and social demands to the workers’ protest agenda, since at the moment, all workers’ protests are centered around broad political demands: Lukashenko’s resignation, the release of political prisoners, lawsuits against the security forces, fair elections.

NDPP

Oh good. So liberals can support a NATO-backed colour revolution on Russia's borders and feel good about it.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

NDPP wrote:

Oh good. So liberals can support a NATO-backed colour revolution on Russia's borders and feel good about it.

There wasn't even time for you to read the whole interview before you posted this. What a narrow-minded person you are. If a situation doesn't fit into 3 or 4 templates you use to understand the world, you ignore the facts, and force it to fit into one. Intellectual dishonesty personified.

NDPP

2018: USAID Belarus Traitor-Training

https://www.usaid.gov/belarus/civil-society-development

"USAID civil society development activities foster informed civic participation in community-based initiatives and public advocacy across the social and economic spectrum in Belarus..."

 

Interview with 'Dimitry' a worker in Minsk. "...

"I voted for Lukashenka. Many people at our plant also voted for Lukashenka. Against Lukashenka? These are mainly entrepreneurs, youth, IT specialists, people who were expelled from the EU due to quarantines where they were working, and are now [here], out of work in Belarus. And there are a lot of them, I agree. But this is not all of Belarus.

I know why I voted for Lukashenka. Because our factory works stably. And the current oppositionists will come to power carrying out privatizations and our plant will be closed. All the more so if the ties with Russia are also cut off. We mainly supply products there. But why people so against Lukashenka? They themselves often cannot explain. They just don't like him. And when you ask what programs, how they want to change the country, you don't hear anything concrete. Such protests are a road to nowhere. We have already seen what happened to Ukraine. I do not want so that it would be the same with my country.*

https://twitter.com/BenjaminNorton/status/1295018126732603392

 

Canada's Feminist Foreign Policy Must Support Belarusian Feminist Pro-Democracy Revolution

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contributors/2020/08/14/canadas-feminist...

"...Canada's experience and connections supporting Ukrainian reform since 2014 would serve Belarusians and our regional allies well..."

Who could possibly say no?

NDPP

Belarus is Being Used As 'Trampoline' to Attack Russia, Lukashenko Tells RT...

https://on.rt.com/aoto

"Belarusia president Alexander Lukashenko says he and Vladimir Putin 'agree' that the forces allegedly directing the ongoing political crisis in Belarus are aiming to attack Russia next. Lukashenko calls Belarus protests 'color revolution', accuses foreign countries of meddling..."

 

LIVE UPDATES: Situation in Belarus Politicized But Not Disastrous...

https://sptnkne.ws/DxAu

"Lavrov tells Swedish FM imposition of decisions on Minsk unacceptable. 'The partners agreed that any attempts to dictate to the Belarusian society which forces should personify the opposition of Belarus within the framework of the proposed inclusive dialogue with the authorities were unacceptable...."

 

Tkhanovskaya Says Will Not Run For Belarus' President in Case of Return Elections

https://tass.com/world/1192573

"Former candidate for Belarus president Svetlana Tikhanovovskaya said on Friday she doesn't plan to run for president again in case of return elections. 'I don't have such plans,' she said in an interview with the Belsat television channel..."

NDPP

Biegun, Lavrov Discuss Belarus

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20200826_07/

"Senior diplomats from the United States and Russia have discussed the turmoil in Belarus following the country's disputed presidential election. US Deputy Secretary of State Stephen Biegan met Russia's Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov in Moscow on Tuesday. Lavrov told Russian state-run TV that he believes the wise people of Belarus will create a forum for dialogue. Both the US and Russia apparently support opposition calls for political dialogue in Belarus - an idea rejected by President Alexandre Lukashenko..."

 

WATCH 'Russia Needs to be Included' - EP

https://twitter.com/AlexandravonNah/status/1298250638862753793

"Today, opposition leader Tsikhanouskaya spoke to the European Parliament's foreign affairs committee on the situation in Belarus. We asked David Mcallister what the EU should do to support the Belarusian people and whether Putin can be trusted as a partner."

NDPP

The Tribulations of Triangulation: Few Options for Belarus Amid a Color Revolution

https://www.mintpressnews.com/tribulations-triangulation-options-amid-co...

"Belarus shows that any small state with a mildly socialist system and independent foreign policy invites subversion by the Yankee hegemon and its collaborators..."

 

Belarus: NATO Lobby Acknowledges That Its Color Revolution Failed

https://t.co/loZAfbNRLM?amp=1

"On August 15 we explained why the color revolution in Belarus would fail. Belarus' President Alexandre Lukashenko had offered President Vladimir Putin of Russia to formally implement the long delayed Union State that will unite Belarus with Russia. In exchange he wanted full Russian backing for shutting down the US led color revolution against him. Putin accepted the deal. With Russia's backing the military, political and economic stability of Belarus is for now guaranteed. Lukashenko will at some point be ousted but that will be at a time and place and in a way convenient for Russia..."

NDPP

Covert Action Props Up US-Polish Axis Against Belarus: A Deep Dive into Far-Right Regime-Change Activists and their Backers

https://covertactionmagazine.com/2020/09/13/covert-action-props-up-u-s-p...'

"...Anti-communist Belarusians began running a 'government-in-exile' whose 'capital-in-exile is currently, Ottawa, Canada. With the 2020 color uprisings, one need not look far to find foreign powers behind the protests..."

 

CrossTalk Bullhorns: Failed Regime Change (and vid)

https://www.rt.com/shows/crosstalk/500619-navalny-poisoning-saga-discuss...

"The  forced regime-change playbook - why it's not working and will not work in Belarus..."

josh

The strongman president of Belarus sent a fighter jet to intercept a European airliner traveling through the country’s airspace on Sunday and ordered the plane to land in the capital, Minsk, where a prominent opposition journalist aboard was then seized, provoking international outrage.

. . . .

The International Civil Aviation Organization, an agency of the United Nations, said it was “strongly concerned” about the incident. The agency said that the “apparent forced landing” of the flight may have violated the Chicago Convention, the 1944 accord that established the core principles of international aviation.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/23/world/europe/ryanair-belarus.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage

 

NDPP

 Lukashenko's a punter compared to Obama...

Assange on the untold Story of the grounding of Evo Morales' plane during Edward Snowden Manhunt

https://youtu.be/gYBgdiCZmNw

"During the US [Obama] hunt for Snowden, Bolivian President Evo Morales' plane was forced to land in Austria for 14 hours after Spain, France, Portugal and Italy closed the airspace under pressure from the United States over false rumors Snowden was on board."

But extra-territorial enforcement is only the perogative of the rules-based order alliance.

Pondering

This is ridiculous. All flights to Belarus should be stopped until the man is released. End of story. 

NDPP

Who is Roman Protasevich?

https://www.foiaresearch.net/person/roman-protasevich

"Protasevich has a neo-Nazi and anti-communist background. He is a sympathizer of the Pahomia Detachment, a Belarusian militia that has fought alongside the neo-Nazi Azov Battalion in Ukraine's post-Maidan civil war.

On April 23, 2018, he posted a picture with the subtitle 'The most important week in my life begins.' The same day he posted a picture of himself inside the US State Department, stating, 'Never had so many important and interesting encounters in my life. Tired but very pleased.'

According to his Facebook page, he started working for the USAID supported radio in Belarus Euroradio.fm on August 31, 2018.

His presence in Greece roughly coincided with a visit of the Western-backed regime change leader in exile Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya, with the President of Greece, Katerina Sakellaru Poulou, and US Ambassador to Greece, Geoffrey Pyatt*

*Both US regime-changers Pyatt and Nuland are operational again under their old major domo Joe Biden stirring up trouble in Russia's 'near-abroad'.

https://youtu.be/WV9J6sxCs5k

josh

Amazing how everyone opposing a Slavic strongman is labeled a Nazi.

kropotkin1951

josh wrote:

Amazing how everyone opposing a Slavic strongman is labeled a Nazi.

Amazing how you fail to understand the most basic operations of your spy agencies. Regime change is what US AID does. Do you really think this person is a "journalist" and not a US asset acting on behalf of your government?

NDPP

"RFE/RL is a CIA cutout (originally named Radio Liberation from Bolshevism). All the people named here are US government-funded regime-change operatives involved in a well-funded Western-backed attempt to overthrow the government of Belarus and install a neoliberal client regime."

https://twitter.com/BenjaminNorton/status/1396816951805100037

Pondering

A passenger plane was diverted and forced to land in a country that was not on its schedule. Every single person on that plane was kidnapped. They were forced out of the air by a military escort. That most have been released doesn't change what happened. If the man they took off that plane had murdered a 100 people it still wouldn't be justified. 

Are those going to be the new rules now? Countries can force planes to land if they want someone on it? How can anyone here be okay with that?

josh

Belarus said on Monday that a false bomb threat that prompted a passenger plane to be diverted to Minsk where authorities arrested a journalist on board, was written in the name of the Palestinian militant group Hamas.

. . . .

Hamas spokesman Barhoum said the group "has nothing to do with that completely."

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/belarus-points-hamas-bomb-threat-plane-diversion-hamas-rejects-claim-2021-05-24/

NDPP

From above:

"We don't resort to these methods, which could be the doing of some suspicious parties that aim to denounce Hamas and foil the state of world sympathy with our Palestinian people and their legitmate resistance,' The Hamas spokesman said."

This increasingly smacks of a set-up  by NATO and/or  western intelligence agencies to revive their moribund colour-revolution fizzle in Belarus. 'By means of deception shalt thou make war'?

josh

So was dragging the guy off the plane and arresting him all part of the western plot?

NDPP

Cunningham: Western outrage over Belarus force landing plane: How dare you copy us!

https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2021/05/24/western-outrage-over-b...

"Washington runs its global air piracy with the full, silent complicity of European governments. Now perhaps if the Europeans expressed opposition to that global piracy then they might just have a bit of moral authority to comment on the Belarus incident. But the Europeans are craven in their support for American aviation hijacks and violations. So their selective protestations are null and void."

 

Lukashenko's revenge (served cold)

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2021/05/lukashenko-revenge-served-cold.html

"The incident is totally NOT unprecedented. Gideon Rachman of the Financial Times notes that the 'west' can hardly complain about yesterday's incident when it behaves in even more egregious ways. Belarus did not even reach beyond its borders but acted fully within its rights under international law..."

 

American 'regime-change' specialists NED claim credit for Belarus protests and boast of funding Russian opposition during prank call (and vid)

https://on.rt.com/b8ac

"A pair of notorious Russian pranksters posing as leading Belarusian opposition figures have duped the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) into revealing the extent of US involvement in Eastern European political movements. The officials believed they were talking to Svetlana Tikhanovskaya, the figurehead of Belarus' opposition movement, and one of her advisors.."

 

kropotkin1951

Pondering wrote:

A passenger plane was diverted and forced to land in a country that was not on its schedule. Every single person on that plane was kidnapped. They were forced out of the air by a military escort. That most have been released doesn't change what happened. If the man they took off that plane had murdered a 100 people it still wouldn't be justified. 

Are those going to be the new rules now? Countries can force planes to land if they want someone on it? How can anyone here be okay with that?

I see you agree with the Chinese news agency on this one as do I. This behaviour must be condemned. I for one think it is reprehensible but not substantively different than us ceasing Meng Wanzhou when she was changing planes during a stop over in Vancouver.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rr-3xyiT0ks

NDPP

Roman Protasevich Greets You!

https://twitter.com/beek38/status/1397108198386159616

 

'Now the UK Times Reporting Protasevich's neo-Nazi Ties'

https://twitter.com/MarkAmesExiled/status/1396956961585909766

"Azov Battalion."

But no worries. Those Nazis are on our side.

https://twitter.com/mikolaswed/status/913468028741996545

Ken Burch

Look, NDPP, everybody else here is as anti-imperialist as you are.  But how, in any universe, is it "anti-imperialist" to support nationalist reactionaries like Lukashenko, Putin, Assad and the Chinese regime that is for all practical purposes capitalist?

How does going that route do anything more to defeat imperialism than supporting Stalin or Mao did?

We're supposed to be for human liberation, not "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".

 

NDPP

Oh no they're not.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

My anti-imperialism is bigger than your anti-imperialism. ;^)

kropotkin1951

Ken Burch wrote:

Look, NDPP, everybody else here is as anti-imperialist as you are.  But how, in any universe, is it "anti-imperialist" to support nationalist reactionaries like Lukashenko, Putin, Assad and the Chinese regime that is for all practical purposes capitalist?

It is white imperialism for you to think that your view of the leaders of other countries has any fucking relevance. The Chinese "regime" is supported by the vast majority of its population and in international affairs is pushing the radical idea of using the UN and other international treaties to prevent the rogue nations in NATO from interfering in the affairs of other countries. So are you going to save them from the government they support? How by carpet bombing Xinjiang like we did in Libya? After all it seems that some of those oppressed Uyghurs were under threat from Qaddafi in Libya before being unleashed on the citizens of Syria.

It is imperialist to think that the NED will lead the way to a better life for the common person any where in the world. People overthrow their governments or reform them. Do gooder imperialists in this century have wrecked death and destruction everywhere they have purported to save people from their evil leaders. Tell me how much better the people of Libya are than under the eveil Qaddafi or how Syria is s0 much better with most of its major cities reduced to rubble. The millions of dead and displaced people love us for our unfailing support for democracy. 

They would rather be dead than red is a very dangerous imperialist trope that kills.

I believe in the power of the people not the NED.

josh

Ken Burch wrote:

Look, NDPP, everybody else here is as anti-imperialist as you are.  But how, in any universe, is it "anti-imperialist" to support nationalist reactionaries like Lukashenko, Putin, Assad and the Chinese regime that is for all practical purposes capitalist?

How does going that route do anything more to defeat imperialism than supporting Stalin or Mao did?

We're supposed to be for human liberation, not "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".

 

Don't waste your time.

kropotkin1951

Maybe the exceptional Americans could just learn to mind their own fucking business and stop using state funds to interfere in other peoples internal affairs. In an ideal world they would also take their WMD's back home and close all their over seas bases. IMO the rest of the world are sovereign nations and they can take care of themselves and don't need the Anglo American empire telling them how to live.

Ken Burch

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

Look, NDPP, everybody else here is as anti-imperialist as you are.  But how, in any universe, is it "anti-imperialist" to support nationalist reactionaries like Lukashenko, Putin, Assad and the Chinese regime that is for all practical purposes capitalist?

It is white imperialism for you to think that your view of the leaders of other countries has any fucking relevance. The Chinese "regime" is supported by the vast majority of its population and in international affairs is pushing the radical idea of using the UN and other international treaties to prevent the rogue nations in NATO from interfering in the affairs of other countries. So are you going to save them from the government they support? How by carpet bombing Xinjiang like we did in Libya? After all it seems that some of those oppressed Uyghurs were under threat from Qaddafi in Libya before being unleashed on the citizens of Syria.

It is imperialist to think that the NED will lead the way to a better life for the common person any where in the world. People overthrow their governments or reform them. Do gooder imperialists in this century have wrecked death and destruction everywhere they have purported to save people from their evil leaders. Tell me how much better the people of Libya are than under the eveil Qaddafi or how Syria is s0 much better with most of its major cities reduced to rubble. The millions of dead and displaced people love us for our unfailing support for democracy. 

They would rather be dead than red is a very dangerous imperialist trope that kills.

I believe in the power of the people not the NED.

First of all...to hell with the NED.  I have no idea what I've ever posted here that could possibly be equated with support for their essentially fascist agenda.

I don't base my views on any of those countries on what the NED says- and I've opposed the NED every since they got started by doing vicious anti-Sandinista propaganda in the Eighties.

The views I hold- though I didn't invent any of them, by any stretch- come out of a long anti-authoritarian Left tradition that goes back to Rosa Luxemburg's critiques of Leninism, the Krondstadt rising of 1921, the East Berlin uprising of 1953, the Hungarian Revolution of '56, the grassroots independent Left that was emerging in Czechoslovakia during the Prague Spring, the students of France in May '68, the student and worker activists for democracy and genuine socialism who were martyred in Beijing in 1989, and the independent Left in Russia exemplified by people like Boris Kagarlitsky- and the personal courage of the Pussy Riot collective- and those creating an alternative to religious extremism, social oppression and violence in Rojava, as well as those who push for the establishment of local and regional assemblies and "participatory budgets" on the Sao Paulo model.

I don't support anything remotely like carpet bombing Xinjiang and I don't think I supported the invasion of Libya.  

All I was saying is that history proves that it takes the Left to bad places to ally itself with regimes just because they identify as "anti-American".  

 

 

Ken Burch

Also, I agree that nobody in "the West" should be trying to overthrow the Russian, Chinese or Syrian governments.  They should only be brought down if the people of those countries, on their own, from below, want that to happen. 

Pondering

You all know I don't exactly have in depth knowledge of foreign affairs. I haven't understood the defence of China but now I have come to understand, I think, that the point isn't to defend China but rather to say we are in no position to condemn them nor to assume they don't have the support of their people. 

I do think I have been gullible in reading the stories of students being used for propaganda and swallowing them whole, without any question. I know the media is full of propaganda and lies by omission.

 

NDPP

'What should the US do about Belarus?'

https://twitter.com/MarkSleboda1/status/1397184290916642825

https://twitter.com/MarkSleboda1/status/1397244072172138501

"You mean beyond empowering, platforming and funding Azov Neonazis like Roman Protasevich to overthrow the Belarusian government and then feigning outrage when they go to extremes to take that regime-change asset off the geopolitical board?

Can someone explain to me the US obsession with choosing extremists of every stripe from literal neo-Nazis to headchopping suicide-bombing 'moderate' jihadis as its regime-change assets and proxies? Can they really not find a good honest-to-god pro-West liberal quisling to play along?

NDPP

As for all the exorcised Americans expressing outrage over Belarus actions, I already mentioned US commandeering of European airspace to manhunt Snowden and force down Evo Morales' plane. Here's more items worthy of consideration...

"Remember when the United States just murdered an Iranian general in Iraq, who was there at the request of the Iraqi government? And yet USA is incensed by a flight being rerouted in Europe?"

https://twitter.com/Phil_Kelly_/status/1396860686077136897

 

"BTW, this is a record between Ukrainian air controllers and a Belavia plane in 2016 when Ukraine ordered a Belarus civilian plane to turn around and land in Kiev to detain Mortirosyan, threatening to send Military Planes To DOWN IT..."

https://twitter.com/elenaevdokimov7/status/1397035780212609027

 

Man removed from Aeromexico flight sent to US

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/man-removed-from-aeromexico-flig...

"The passenger removed from an Aeromexico light diverted to Montreal has been sent to the US, Canadian and American officials say.Abdirahman Ali Gaal was believed to be on the US no-fly list. 'This is not a normal procedure [Prof] Wark said. 'And it raises some troubling concerns because we've had instances in the past where Canadians have been of law enforcement interest in the US and simply shipped across the border in ways that in retrospect look quite troubling in terms of due process, fair procedures and human rights, frankly..."

 

Venezuela denounces arbitrary arrest of Alex Saab by Interpol

https://www.telesurenglish.net/news/Venezuela-Denounces-Arbitrary-Arrest...

"At the time of the arrest Alex Nain Saab was in transit in the Republic of Cape Verde, as part of a technical stopover to continue his journey with the aim of taking steps to obtain food, medicine, medical supplies and other goods for the COVID-19 pandemic. According to [FM] Arreaza, the arrest of the businessman is a new attempt by the United States to dictate the right to food, health and other basic rights of the Venezuelan people."

 

"It matters to ME that the US government is employing and platforming a literal NeoNazi as 'journalist' at state media RFERL targeting Belarus. He was also employed at the EU's ERB. The real question is why doesn't that matter to you?"

https://twitter.com/MarkSleboda1/status/1397516850767011849

kropotkin1951

Ken Burch wrote:

All I was saying is that history proves that it takes the Left to bad places to ally itself with regimes just because they identify as "anti-American". 

You missed my point. It is not supporting a regime to insist that foreign agents not interfere in the internal affairs of any country. This "journalist" is a fucking Nazi who has been on the US payroll for years. I can both despise him and the Belarus government. Look at your post you listed the "enemies" of NATO and pretended they are morally worse than the imperial empire that rules the world. That is not balance that is imperialism.

kropotkin1951

Canada's role in the Ukrainian coup was deeper than I realized. I never knew we used our embassy grounds as a staging area for fascist brown shirts. Makes me proud to be Canadian. Libya and the Ukraine are examples of how the people of countries with evil leaders benefit from NATO expertise and aid. Belarus people will be so much better off under fascists like this freedom fighting "journalist."

The Canadian embassy in Ukraine helped the coup forces, as “opposition protesters [Right Sector included] were camped in the Canadian Embassy for a week during the February 2014 rebellion against Yanukovych. ‘Canada’s embassy in Kyiv was used as a haven for several days by anti-government protesters during the uprising that toppled the regime of former president Viktor Yanukovych,’ a Canadian Press story noted.

In June 2014, Ukraine formally integrated extremist far-right militias including the Aidar, Dnipro, Donbass, and Azov battalions which played a crucial role in the Maidan coup, into the National Guard, which is led by Ministry of Internal Affairs.

University of Ottawa Professor Ivan Katchanovski brought Ukrainian media reports to light which reveal that Protasevich served in the press-service of the neo-Nazi-led Azov battalion during the war in Donbass. Verified photos show Protasevich appearing in Azov battalion’s official publication “Black Sun” in 2015. The Ukrainian initiated war in Donbass begun in April 2014, after Donbass citizens voted en masse to join Russia post-Maidan coup, until a ceasefire was agreed in September 2014.

https://www.thecanadafiles.com/articles/recently-detained-belarussian-ne...

This means that Protasevich effectively acted as an agent of a ministry of the Ukrainian government during his time serving with the Azov Battalion.

 

Ken Burch

kropotkin1951]</p> <p>[quote=Ken Burch wrote:

All I was saying is that history proves that it takes the Left to bad places to ally itself with regimes just because they identify as "anti-American". 

You missed my point. It is not supporting a regime to insist that foreign agents not interfere in the internal affairs of any country. This "journalist" is a fucking Nazi who has been on the US payroll for years. I can both despise him and the Belarus government. Look at your post you listed the "enemies" of NATO and pretended they are morally worse than the imperial empire that rules the world. That is not balance that is imperialism.

[/quote

My post wasn't even about Belarus and I never joined the chorus claiming the journalist was some sort of a living saint.  Also, I agree about the double standards given what the West did to Morales' and Snowden's planes and the "accidental" downing of the Iranian airliner by the U.S. Navy.

And I said, in my post above, that "The West" shouldn't be trying to bring these governments down or sending in agents to mess with things internally.

My point was a general statement that the Left needs to avoid doing anything that sounds like we're actually supporting people like Assad or Putin- Western countries shouldn't be trying to overthrow them, but at the same time, we need to accept that there can be such a thing as legitimate, grassroots movements for change that occur in those countries that have nothing to do with great power politics or external machinations.

I feel particularly strong about this with regards to Putin.  He has been a purely reactionary leader and it is quite likely that the people of Russia could rise up against him simply because THEY are sick of the guy.  And there is no chance of any positive, radical change ever happening in Russia as long as Putin stays in power.

I agree with you about the nefarious project of the NED and I don't support "color revolutions".

But it's not as though the only possibilities are "color revolutions" or the permanent entrenchment of the status quo in the places we're discussing.

Ken Burch

And no, I don't think the countries I listed are "worse" than the Western imperialist states- I just don't personally see anything legitimate about them.  It's comparable to the fact that I could never have defended what Brezhnev did to Czechoslovakia in August of '68 on "anti-imperialist" grounds.

NDPP

I think that it behooves every American including the ones here to focus their attention on an urgent matter the vast majority of humanity well knows to be an absolute and incontrovertible fact. It is American leadership that represents the greatest threat to global progress and world peace not the Russian or Chinese ones they seek to dominate or destroy.

NDPP

further to #38

"The case of Alex Saab raises dangerous precedents in terms of extraterritorial judicial abuse, violations of diplomatic status and even the use of torture to extract false confessions. This is according to Montreal-based international human-rights lawyer John Philpot. He spoke on May 19 at a webinar sponsored by the Alliance for Global Justice and other groups about this example of the long reach of the US empire enforcing its deadly sanctions on some one-third of humanity.

Stansfield Smith of Chicago ALBA Solidarity commented that the Saab case is part of a larger US effort to use its 'lawfare' to impose its illegal sanctions, which the UN considers as 'unilateral coercive measures. The US employs sanctions to discipline countries that attempt to develop independent of its dominion..."

US Trying to Extradite Venezuelan Diplomat for the 'Crime' of Securing Food for the Hungry: The Case of Alex Saab v the Empire

https://www.counterpunch.org/2021/05/25/us-trying-to-extradite-venezuela...

kropotkin1951

Ken Burch wrote:

Also, I agree that nobody in "the West" should be trying to overthrow the Russian, Chinese or Syrian governments.  They should only be brought down if the people of those countries, on their own, from below, want that to happen. 

That is the point of internationalism.

However you divide the world instinctively along imperial lines and describe the protection of the nation state from imperialism as reactionary nationalism. Guess what they are reacting too? Also I am sure that in all those countries the government has at least the 38% or so support that is required for a majority in Canada.

"But how, in any universe, is it "anti-imperialist" to support nationalist reactionaries like Lukashenko, Putin, Assad and the Chinese regime that is for all practical purposes capitalist?"

Ken Burch

NDPP wrote:

I think that it behooves every American including the ones here to focus their attention on an urgent matter the vast majority of humanity well knows to be an absolute and incontrovertible fact. It is American leadership that represents the greatest threat to global progress and world peace not the Russian or Chinese ones they seek to dominate or destroy.

And I don't disagree- I wasn't saying the Russian or Chinese governments were a greater global threat than the U.S., and I've never even believe anything remotely close to that.

My point is that nothing globally progressive or transformative can come of arguing that the governments I mentioned should be considered "anti-imperialist" and given the active support OF the Left.   

It's not as though any good can come of going back to Cold War or "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" thinking.  And it's not as though the only possibilities are standing with the State Department or standing with those governments.    

We need to oppose Western efforts to meddle in Russia and China, and I always have opposed those-and having done that, we need to leave it at that.

No good comes of any of us becoming this year's "tankies".

Ken Burch

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

All I was saying is that history proves that it takes the Left to bad places to ally itself with regimes just because they identify as "anti-American". 

You missed my point. It is not supporting a regime to insist that foreign agents not interfere in the internal affairs of any country. This "journalist" is a fucking Nazi who has been on the US payroll for years. I can both despise him and the Belarus government. Look at your post you listed the "enemies" of NATO and pretended they are morally worse than the imperial empire that rules the world. That is not balance that is imperialism.

I listed those countries because I personally oppose their governments-independently of the NED or NATO.  It was happenstance.  And I have never claimed that this particular journalist was a hero of the global democratic cause-in fact, I' ve actually said nothing about him at all, and take your word for as to his true nature.

 

kropotkin1951

Ken Burch wrote:

My point is that nothing globally progressive or transformative can come of arguing that the governments I mentioned should be considered "anti-imperialist" and given the active support OF the Left.  

I disagree completely with this premise. China and Syria are anti-imperialist. The proof in the pudding is that they are under attack by the empire. Russia is a different animal given it has actually had empires under various forms of government so I would agree that they cannot by definition be anti-imperialists.

I support the government of China's poverty eradication efforts and their pivot to taking the environment seriously. I don't give a flying fuck if they  don't get to endlessly debate who to vote for to go to a parliament to talk and talk and talk because none of them are managers only talking heads with TV friendly smiles. Where we disagree fundamentally is I look at the Chinese system and see them actively reacting to the desires of their people because it polls them all the time. If you are smart and want to go into government to make policy then you join the CPC or one of the other small parties. A Chinese person doesn't go into politics to get rich because as you note China is a mixed economy and the big money is being made by the private sector. There is nothing inherently totalitarian about that idea of politics despite it not being a western liberal democracy. The form is not as important as the performance. In Canada we are polarized in the face of climate change because of our political system. Our citizenship are so left out of the process we have governments both federal and provincial subsidizing oil and gas when the vast majority of Canadians want serious action. I tried protesting and that cost me $500 and it didn't stop TMX. If I want to protest again the sentence is now up to three weeks. That is the rule of law as enforced by our par-military RCMP.

Syria scheduled elections under a constitution the people approved and that is when NATO ramped up the "colour revolution" with its car bombings into a full blown civil war. Many on the ground analysts believed Assad would have won the election but we will never know because the US determined he was not fit to rule. They decided that with the best freedom and democracy intentions on behalf of the Syrian people of course.

NDPP

Trudeau calls arrest of Belarus journalist a 'clear attack on democracy', threatens to impose further sanctions

https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/trudeau-calls-arrest-of-belarusia...

"...The behaviour of the Belarus regime is outrageous, illegal and completely unacceptable,' Trudeau said. 'This was a clear attack on democracy and on the freedom of the press. We condemn it and call for his immediate release. We also condemn this kind of dangerous interference in civil aviation. Canada has existing sanctions in place against Belarus, and we'll be examining further options.

Trudeau also said Canada would support actions from 'all available international institutions,' including the International Civil Aviation Organization, the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, and NATO. 'We stand in solidarity with our partners in defending journalism all around the globe,' Trudeau said..."
 

[As long as it's not Julian Assange. He can rot in Belmarsh, die of COVID or be extradited by Joe Biden and buried in a US Supermax because he's a rapist who worked for Putin and made Hillary lose.]

 

"RFE/RL is a CIA cutout (originally named Radio Liberation from Bolshevism). All the people named here are US government-funded regime-change operatives involved in a well-funded Western-backed attempt to overthrow the government of Belarus and install a neoliberal client regime."

https://twitter.com/BenjaminNorton/status/1396816951805100037

cco

Ken Burch wrote:

My point is that nothing globally progressive or transformative can come of arguing that the governments I mentioned should be considered "anti-imperialist" and given the active support OF the Left.   

The question, I suppose, is what progressive or transformative comes of taking the position that the governments the United States hates are just as evil as it says, and should be condemned, but otherwise left alone.

The methods of neutralizing opposition to war in the 21st century are more sophisticated than they used to be, but they do tend to repeat over and over, so they can be easily identified:

1. Pick a designated enemy.

2. Encourage Canadians/Americans to oppose its government. Atrocity propaganda helps here. All the better if the atrocity's something that actually happened, but just making shit up works pretty well, too. In general, to successfully manufacture consent for war, citizens need to think of either the general population of a country or one specific minority group as under the heel of a tyrannical boot, facing starvation and/or slaughter, and ready to greet the invading force as liberators.

3. Slice and dice the opposition. This is the stage we're currently in. The group that eagerly says "I hate that country's government and we need to kill as many of them as necessary to change it!" is pretty small, so the opposition needs to be divided. First, split off the ones who are willing to say there might be non-evil things about the enemy in question. The articulate ones usually get described as a fifth column, rationalizing atrocities because they fully support them and would love to see the enemy carry them out in their own country, as well. Soft supporters are invariably described as useful idiots duped by the regime and betraying its innocent victims. The important thing is to draw hard dividing lines between those people and the group who will agree that the enemy is evil, but aren't quite willing to agree to slaughter them yet. The combination of fearmongering and mockery (see "tankie" having been repurposed to describe those against sending tanks somewhere) is usually pretty effective.

4. Convince the soft supporters of regime change that all warmongering is is disagreement over tactics. Issue statements of condemnation, push for denunciations by international bodies, and finally, if you can't gin up support for outright invasion, pick a proxy or ten, describe them as "moderate pro-democracy rebels", and arm them. Portray every action taken against these groups as further proof the enemy needs to go. Once everyone agrees the enemy's evil, then not wanting to invade them is just support by another name, right? Think of all the innocent people being bombed. We need to liberate them by bombing them. Just a little bombing, at first. Just a no-fly zone. Just a surgical strike on the leadership. Just a safe zone for the good guys. Move the window to the point where only true believers in tyranny would dare to oppose invasion at all.

5. Invade. Kill the designated enemy leadership. Maybe install a puppet regime, but if it's not strategic enough, just ceasing to give a shit (à la Libya) is also an acceptable outcome.

6. Count on nobody remembering any of the outcome by the time a new designated enemy needs to be picked. Look at all the evil those foolish anti-imperialists are supporting! Is there ANY tyrant they won't back?

The amazing thing is that after all the times it's led to utter disaster, people keep falling for, as the thread title puts it, the "same tired old script". Most people are too afraid of the mockery, the accusations of fifth-columnism, and of being lumped in as foolish puppets of tyrants to come out and say "What are you selling, government? Are you saying we should go to war? How many people need to die on our side and theirs in order to achieve your strategic endgame?" A government that said "We should kill half a million Syrians to put ISIS in power" wouldn't find much support. Neither would one that said "We should have a nuclear war with China and kill as many as necessary to install an Islamist government in Xinjiang", or "We should support a civil war in Belarus and a possible nuclear war with Russia in order to get Belarus into NATO." You have to read between the lines for those. At this stage, saying NATO might want what it obviously wants, or that a forthcoming war will be catastrophic, is just tankie talk.

melovesproles

cco wrote:

6. Count on nobody remembering any of the outcome by the time a new designated enemy needs to be picked. Look at all the evil those foolish anti-imperialists are supporting! Is there ANY tyrant they won't back?

Great post.

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