Belarus: Imperialists Run the Same Tired Old Script...

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melovesproles

Pondering wrote:

You all know I don't exactly have in depth knowledge of foreign affairs. I haven't understood the defence of China but now I have come to understand, I think, that the point isn't to defend China but rather to say we are in no position to condemn them nor to assume they don't have the support of their people. 

I do think I have been gullible in reading the stories of students being used for propaganda and swallowing them whole, without any question. I know the media is full of propaganda and lies by omission.

This is also a really good post. Most people can't admit a) they don't have an extensive knowledge about geopolitics b) what they do know about most other countries is almost completely from the perspective of the agenda that is propagated by their own state and corporate media. That openness can really make one's analysis much more interesting.

I also agree that the important principle is that we are not in a position to be exerting our moral authority over the rest of the world especially when it is so obviously used as a cover for war, sanctions, and arms dealing.

The human rights 'champions' on here will say they oppose equally regimes that are pro-US like Saudi Arabia, Israel and Colombia as much as they do US enemies like Iran, Venezuela, China, Belarus, ect. But that 'balance' is ridiculous if you look at what their opposition can actually accomplish. They are citizens of a country (or of the client-state of that country) which sends vast quanities of cash and arms to the first group of countries. Changing that would be extremely powerful leverage to get these countries to stop committing atrocities. What leverage do we have with the second group of countries?  The leverage that cco outlined in post #50-sanctions, bombs, arming groups and destabilizing whole regions. We've seen this play out again and again and no one's humans rights are improved but average life expectancy rates plummet. So why would anyone thnk these should be equally opposed when what can be accomplished is as different as night and day? It's only equal if being called a 'tankie' is as important a consideration as people in another country getting starved and bombed.

NDPP

Lukashenko comments on Athens-Vilnius flight incident

https://eng.belta.by/president/view/lukashenko-comments-on-athens-vilniu...

"...In the case of the Athens-Vilnius flight a bomb threat came from abroad - from Switzerland, the president said. The message was sent to the airports of Athens, Vilnius and Minsk simultaneously.

The head of state called the actions of the pilots illogical. After hesitation and lengthy consultations they chose Minsk although Vilnius was only 70 kilometres away. According to the president, the Belarusian side did not expect that the plane would decide to U-turn.

'Now is the main question: why did no one want to receive the plane? Neither Vilnius, where it was heading, nor Warsaw, nor Lvov or Kiev, when we reported the bomb scare. Why didn't those who are now lamenting, receive the plane? Were they afraid of the responsibility or did someone really need it to land in Minsk?' the president asked."

Curiouser and curiouser.

josh

Yes.  Like how Protasevich just happened to be on the plane.  How serendipitous.

kropotkin1951

josh wrote:

Yes.  Like how Protasevich just happened to be on the plane.  How serendipitous.

Of course there is no possibility that this minor pawn was sacrificed by his masters because NATO does not play elaborate games that breach all international conventions. If there was any history of NATO doing false flags or any of the other things that totalitarian states do then maybe it would be a credible theory but since they don't I too will have to just chalk it up to serendipity.

Ken Burch

1) I get my news from independent sources;

2) I fully agree that the U.S. and "the West" should never be meddling in any other countries;

3) I always have agreed with that.

4) On Syria, I support the people who are building Rojava, not the State Department.  It can't be progressive in any way to back the Syrian government against Rojava.  If Rojava ends up getting crushed-just as when the Catalonia alternative Left was betrayed in Spain in the Thirties- there won't be any remaining hope for anything progressive or transformative in that country.

5) On China, I don't want that government overthrown, I just want it to end the paranoid authoritarianism and the absurd nationalism.   

kropotkin1951

Ken Burch wrote:

1) I get my news from independent sources;

2) I fully agree that the U.S. and "the West" should never be meddling in any other countries;

3) I always have agreed with that.

4) On Syria, I support the people who are building Rojava, not the State Department.  It can't be progressive in any way to back the Syrian government against Rojava.  If Rojava ends up getting crushed-just as when the Catalonia alternative Left was betrayed in Spain in the Thirties- there won't be any remaining hope for anything progressive or transformative in that country.

5) On China, I don't want that government overthrown, I just want it to end the paranoid authoritarianism and the absurd nationalism.   

4. Do you think that our NATO ally is going to allow the creation of a Kurdish state on its border, after its record of cultural genocide against Kurds in Turkey? If it fails it will be a reason to hate all other Syrians.

5. Paranoid authoritarianism is quite the mouthful. Does that mean they need to just roll over and allow your government to dictate all the resource disputes in the region and allow Xinjiang and Tibet and Hong Kong and Taiwan to be hived off to separatists? The Chinese government has nothing to fear from the West. Hell they had their best century in history under the rule of imperial Western powers.

Absurd nationalism: thy name is American Exceptionalism.

Ken Burch

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

1) I get my news from independent sources;

2) I fully agree that the U.S. and "the West" should never be meddling in any other countries;

3) I always have agreed with that.

4) On Syria, I support the people who are building Rojava, not the State Department.  It can't be progressive in any way to back the Syrian government against Rojava.  If Rojava ends up getting crushed-just as when the Catalonia alternative Left was betrayed in Spain in the Thirties- there won't be any remaining hope for anything progressive or transformative in that country.

5) On China, I don't want that government overthrown, I just want it to end the paranoid authoritarianism and the absurd nationalism.   

4. Do you think that our NATO ally is going to allow the creation of a Kurdish state on its border, after its record of cultural genocide against Kurds in Turkey? If it fails it will be a reason to hate all other Syrians.

5. Paranoid authoritarianism is quite the mouthful. Does that mean they need to just roll over and allow your government to dictate all the resource disputes in the region and allow Xinjiang and Tibet and Hong Kong and Taiwan to be hived off to separatists? The Chinese government has nothing to fear from the West. Hell they had their best century in history under the rule of imperial Western powers.

Absurd nationalism: thy name is American Exceptionalism.

Rojava isn't an exclusively Kurdish project- there are ethnic Turks and Syrian Arabs working on it as well.   And the State Department hates the very idea of it- the LAST thing they want to support in the Middle East is a secular, egalitarian, multicultural alternative to the status quo- Rojava is a direct challenge to the approved narrative which holds that people in that part of the world- including the regimes the U.S. backs in Turkey and Israel- are incapable of supporting anything but violent nationalism or religious extremism.  

There is absolutely nothing positive that could come of Rojava being crushed.  Once that area goes back to being nothing but Syrian and Turkish territory, history ends there.  And no possible good would come of the Rojava project being replaced by anything authoritarian or ethnic-supremacist.

Rojava is where the future can be born.   Syria under Assad is where nothing is possible and nothing can be born, just as is the case with Turkey under Erdogan.  Syria and Turkey, under their present governments, are countries where history will always be over.

 

Ken Burch

And as to what Turkey will and will not permit, is there anything Erdogan WOULD be ok with that could possibly be worth the Left supporting it?  Is there any hope in agreeing that the essentially fascist "nation-state" model must be accepted as the natural order of things, not only in that region but anywhere?

 

kropotkin1951

Ken Burch wrote:

Rojava is where the future can be born.   Syria under Assad is where nothing is possible and nothing can be born,

I am glad you know this to be true. Is that because he kills so many people with chemical weapons or is he feeding his troops Viagra as well?

 

NDPP

G7 Statement on Belarus

https://www.canada.ca/en/global-affairs/news/2021/05/g7-statement-on-bel...

"We, the G7 foreign ministers of Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the United Kingdom and the United States of America, and the High Representative of the European Union condemn in the strongest terms the unprecedented actions by the Belarusian authorities..."

 

NDPP

US-funded Belarusian regime-change activist arrested on plane

https://thegrayzone.com/2021/05/26/belarus-roman-protasevich-plane-nazis...

"...Protasevich constitutes another example of how NATO member states hypocritcally pose as enlightened defenders of freedom and democracy, when in reality they support the most reactionary, far-right groups imaginable, in a cynical bid to advance their economic and political agendas."

 

Ken Burch

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

Rojava is where the future can be born.   Syria under Assad is where nothing is possible and nothing can be born,

I am glad you know this to be true. Is that because he kills so many people with chemical weapons or is he feeding his troops Viagra as well?

 

I've never based my views on Assad on what the corporate media reports.  I base it on his fixation with crushing Rojava- no one that would want to do that could ever be capable of doing anything progressive.  And there is no possible case for siding with an authoritarian against a libertarian socialist project.

NDPP

Diversion of a Ryanair flight and arrest of Protasevich - a trap set by Ukraine?

https://www.donbass-insider.com/2021/05/26/diversion-of-a-ryanair-flight...

"...The idea that Lukashenko decided on a whim to divert the Ryanair plane just to arrest Protasevich - knowing that this would trigger an international scandal and potentially disastrous retaliatory measures for Belarus economically, doesn't add up. Something's not right...Someone set up Belarus to make it a pariah in the eyes of the world. If this is the case, the investigation into the fake bomb threat may well provide evidence of the origin..."

 

NDPP

By the Book - What really happened with the Ryanair flight ?

https://t.co/SiFVNyszrB

"...There is only one big question for which we have yet to find an answer. Who sent the email that led to all this and for which purpose? One can easily construe motives for both sides.

  • A. Belarus secret services wanted to capture Roman Protasevich no matter what and sent the email. They were willing to accept the predictable sanctions that would follow such a move.
  • B. The regime-change gang that met in Greece wanted new attention and fresh sanctions on Belarus. Someone in the team sent the email. The group was willing to accept a few years of jail time for Protasevich who might or might not have been in on this.

I have no further evidence to decide if A or B is right. There is however a lot of evidence that 'western' supported regime-changers are extremely ruthless and willing to play with the lives and well being of other people. My gut feeling therefore tends to B..."

melovesproles

kropotkin1951 wrote:

5. Paranoid authoritarianism is quite the mouthful. Does that mean they need to just roll over and allow your government to dictate all the resource disputes in the region and allow Xinjiang and Tibet and Hong Kong and Taiwan to be hived off to separatists? The Chinese government has nothing to fear from the West. Hell they had their best century in history under the rule of imperial Western powers.

Absurd nationalism: thy name is American Exceptionalism.

Yeah I remember reading George Kennan's lauded telegram on the Soviet Union with his 'insight' on the 'paranoid' nature of the Soviet Union being linked to a long tradition in Russian politics inherited by the Tsars. No mention of the fact all of the Capitalist industrial countries sent their armies in to crush the revolution in its infancy. Pretty top-notch analysis missing that bit. The Cold Warriors sure thought so.

Pondering

NDPP wrote:

Diversion of a Ryanair flight and arrest of Protasevich - a trap set by Ukraine?

https://www.donbass-insider.com/2021/05/26/diversion-of-a-ryanair-flight...

"...The idea that Lukashenko decided on a whim to divert the Ryanair plane just to arrest Protasevich - knowing that this would trigger an international scandal and potentially disastrous retaliatory measures for Belarus economically, doesn't add up. Something's not right...Someone set up Belarus to make it a pariah in the eyes of the world. If this is the case, the investigation into the fake bomb threat may well provide evidence of the origin..."

I don't buy it. Even in that severely truncated exchange the pilot repeatedly tries to ascertain where the diversion order is coming from and they avoid giving him a direct response. 

If the server was already blocked in Russia due to false bomb threats Belarus had reason to believe this too was false. 

Are they claiming the other airports were refusing to allow the plane to land? 

Of course they have motivation to claim innocence. Claiming otherwise shows the bias in the article. 

NDPP

Vilnius was a shorter distance away than Minsk. We'll wait and see what else emerges. Try #65.

kropotkin1951

Ken Burch wrote:

I've never based my views on Assad on what the corporate media reports.  I base it on his fixation with crushing Rojava- no one that would want to do that could ever be capable of doing anything progressive.  And there is no possible case for siding with an authoritarian against a libertarian socialist project.

"Fixation with crushing Rojava." Could you please cite some articles so I can get an understanding about what you mean. In this civil war I thought the heaviest fighting has been against ISIS and its minions and there have been mostly skirmishes with the YPG. I would like to read more about his obsession with this particular group so post something.

NDPP

"EU has far more passion about a Nazi being taken off a Ryan Air flight than dozens of children slaughtered in Gaza by their beloved apartheid regime. In fact the latter doesn't seem to bother the EU at all, since they never mention it."

https://twitter.com/AliAbunimah/status/1398361770159493127

Perhaps the case of the EU is not unusual.

Pondering

NDPP wrote:

Vilnius was a shorter distance away than Minsk. We'll wait and see what else emerges. Try #65.

I did read it. It doesn't matter who sent the email with regards to the actions of Belarus unless they themselves sent it. Did Vilnius alert Belarus that they were refusing to allow the plane to land?

I think if that were the case we would have heard. 

To Kropotkin, the Meng case is not comparable. The plane was not diverted. She knew she would be landing in Canada and that we have an extridition treaty with the US. Obviously she didn't know she would be arrested. She is being treated like a Queen whereas the two Michael's are being abused. 

I wonder how they would react if we treated Meng the way the men are being treated.  Is that what we should do?  As long as one side does something then the other side can do the same right?

josh

NDPP wrote:

By the Book - What really happened with the Ryanair flight ?

https://t.co/SiFVNyszrB

"...There is only one big question for which we have yet to find an answer. Who sent the email that led to all this and for which purpose? One can easily construe motives for both sides.

  • A. Belarus secret services wanted to capture Roman Protasevich no matter what and sent the email. They were willing to accept the predictable sanctions that would follow such a move.
  • B. The regime-change gang that met in Greece wanted new attention and fresh sanctions on Belarus. Someone in the team sent the email. The group was willing to accept a few years of jail time for Protasevich who might or might not have been in on this.

I have no further evidence to decide if A or B is right. There is however a lot of evidence that 'western' supported regime-changers are extremely ruthless and willing to play with the lives and well being of other people. My gut feeling therefore tends to B..."

Yes, and NATO agents boarded the plane and arrested Protasevich against the pleas of Belarusian officials to leave him be.

kropotkin1951

Pondering wrote:

To Kropotkin, the Meng case is not comparable. The plane was not diverted. She knew she would be landing in Canada and that we have an extridition treaty with the US. Obviously she didn't know she would be arrested. She is being treated like a Queen whereas the two Michael's are being abused.

She was in transit and was arrested not for any known crime but because the US says she might have been misleading on a power point presentation that was made in Hong Kong to a non US bank about a subsidiary of her corporation. That is far more subtle than the Belarus grab but it is still a grab. It is also not the first time that the US has arrested a high tech executive of a foreign competitor with the sole intention of destroying the competition.

As for the two Michaels I think people cannot have it both ways. If China is a totalitarian regime with a secret police that keeps tabs on everyone connected to any Western NGO's then why would they arrest the wrong pawns. By saying that the Michael's are innocent you are either saying the Chinese are incompetent at internal security or that Canada has no spies in China working to advance the Western agenda of overthrowing the CPC.

To make it abundantly clear what the rule of law under the US system is here is the FBI's authority set out clearly in 1989 refuting the idea that the FBI is not bound by any international law. I am sure that the constitutional logic used in this memorandum for the Attorney General is applied by every one of the 17 spy agencies in the US.

*163  At the direction of the President or the Attorney General,the FBI may use its statutory authority to investigate and arrest individuals for violating United States law, even if the FBI's actions contravene customary international law. The President, acting through the Attorney General, has the inherent constitutional authority to deploy the FBI to investigate and arrest individuals for violating United States law, even if those actions contravene customary international law. Extraterritorial law enforcement activities that are authorized by domestic law are not barred even if they contravene unexecuted treaties or treaty provisions, such as Article 2(4) of the United Nations Charter. An arrest that is inconsistent with international or foreign law does not violate the Fourth Amendment.

https://fas.org/irp/agency/doj/fbi/olc_override.pdf

So why should any country follow the rules if the most powerful country on the planet openly says we will do whatever we want to whomever we want anywhere on the planet.

NDPP

Ryanair Incident - Email warning received before plane entered Belorussian airpace

https://t.co/mJETQ2Q0AI

"This is an update to yesterday's post 'By The Book - What Really Happened With the Ryanair Flight in Belarus. That piece analyzed the timeline of the Ryanair bomb threat incident in Belarus and the response from Belarussian officials. As part of that post I discussed the possible manipulation of a screenshot of the bomb threat email by the editor of the Western-financed opposition media Nexta. The Nexta editor-in-chief had promoted the second email as the sole one and insinuated thereby that the plane was contacted and informed about a threat before the warning of that threat arrived.

The logo visible in the screenshot of the email above is of the 'Dossier Center'. Its purpose is to find and create dirt that can be thrown at Russia. It is financed by the exiled oligarch and former Yukos raider Mikhail Khodorkovsy in London. The center seems to have intense contact with western secret services.

Yesterday, the Belorussian Department of Aviation also invited international organizations to look into the case. The United Nations International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) has now agreed to investigate the incident..."

Pondering

International law doesn't exist because there is no body to enforce it. Yes she was in transit but she was still on Canadian soil willingly knowing we have an extridition treaty. Personally I believe she should have been released the moment Trump admitted it was political but I also believe that at least our upper courts do follow the rule of law. 

I did not claim that the two Michaels are innocent. I said that they are being treated abusively, unlike Meng who is living like a Queen. If we were willing to treat Meng like the Micheals I think their living conditions would improve dramatically.  But, we aren't willing to do that because here it would be against the law. 

The US openly assasinates people in other countries with drones. There is no doubt in my mind that that has led other countries to do the same thing through different methods. That doesn't make it okay.

Concerning the flight:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/27/world-aviation-body-to-lau...

Giemulla said: “The more countries that are members of the club the better international aviation can be performed so to exclude a member is a very hard step.

“[Belarus’s expulsion] depends on very much of the position that Mr Lukashenko takes now. If he is very stubborn, says he is master of his house, I’m a sovereign state, then the reaction must be: ‘Sorry you don’t understand: we are talking about international civil aviation and we have to exclude you.’

“The question for the ICAO is not just to punish somebody. The problem is the danger of copying. If ICAO reacts in a soft way this could encourage other autocrats in the world, and there are many of them, to ignore and disregard the international community. If this spreads all over the place, we can forget international aviation.”

Belarus will be cut out of international air travel if they don't hand over the kidnapped individuals.

For once regime change is being encouraged through bribe rather than violence.  The EU is offering 3 billion for a transition to democracy. If Lukashenko wants to stay in power he better figure out a way to return them.

NDPP

How ProtonMail lost the public trust it needs to do business

https://t.co/SyON8ytmaJ

"During the aftermath of the emergency landing in Minsk of a Ryanair flight between Greece and Lithuania, ProtonMail provided fractional support about emails which delivered a bomb threat against the plane to several airports. The partial and seemingly willfully incomplete response by ProtonMail has led to false claims by various media against the government of Belarus. The 'west' is now imposing sanctions against Belarus which will inevitably have negative consequences for ALL people in that country. If Proton Mail does not clean up its slate on this issue it must take responsibility for these.

As we have shown previously, the Ryanair plane was not 'diverted and forced to land in Minsk'. When the plane entered Belorussian airspace about 12:30 local time (9:30 utc) it was informed by Air Traffic Control (ATC) of Belarus that an email had been received by several airports that threatened to explode the plane over its destination in Vilnius. The ATC recommended to the pilot to land in Minsk. The pilot decided to do so by himself. The radio traffic between the pilot and the ATC has been published (scroll down) by the aviation authorities of Belarus. It is undisputed..

We should also keep in mind that this is not a question of good versus bad but true or false. One may dislike the leadership of Belarus. But one also has to acknowlege as even The Atlantic does, that the government of Belarus acted in full accordance with the relevant laws..."

Pondering

As we have shown previously, the Ryanair plane was not 'diverted and forced to land in Minsk'. When the plane entered Belorussian airspace about 12:30 local time (9:30 utc) it was informed by Air Traffic Control (ATC) of Belarus that an email had been received by several airports that threatened to explode the plane over its destination in Vilnius. The ATC recommended to the pilot to land in Minsk. The pilot decided to do so by himself. The radio traffic between the pilot and the ATC has been published (scroll down) by the aviation authorities of Belarus. It is undisputed..

I saw and read the transcript. ATC was evasive and pressuring the pilot to divert when for the safety of Belarus it would have been far better to allow the plane to continue to its desination.  The destination airport did not make that request. 

There was no communication with ATC in the departure or arrival airports offering to divert the flight.  No one asked Belarus to divert the flight when it was closer to the destination airport than it was to the diversion point. It is absolute BS that Belarus is some innocent victim in all of this. The US, the Ukraine, and anyone else also being guilty would not absolve Belarus. 

There is morality and there is reality. The reality is Belarus will not be permitted to get away with this and it is not because anyone gives a shit about the two people being held. Air space belongs to the powerful movers and shakers of the world that know no borders (virtually). Neither the EU nor the US can tolerate this. Punishment will be severe. 

kropotkin1951

Pondering wrote:

I did not claim that the two Michaels are innocent. I said that they are being treated abusively, unlike Meng who is living like a Queen. If we were willing to treat Meng like the Micheals I think their living conditions would improve dramatically.  But, we aren't willing to do that because here it would be against the law.

They are in prison because they have been convicted of a criminal offense.  You are saying that this woman who owns a residence in Vancouver should never have come here because she knows that Canada has an extradition treaty with the US. We have treaties with over 300 countries. I guess by definition everyone who flies internationally is in the same position she was in before changing flights in Canada. Should we lock up all people who another country wants extradited and put them in solitary confinement or what? Extradition cases always take years so what is the rule of law you think should apply. Currently since there is no violence alleged an ankle bracelet is pretty standard. What punishment do you think she should be undergoing because of these Trumped up charges.

NDPP

Protasevich/Assange

https://twitter.com/PeterCronau/status/1397392297243774976

"You must have noticed the current reporting on free speech infringment by the media advocating for Protasevich while ignoring the plight of Assange. How does one explain this duplicity, hypocrisy and double standards?"

He who pays the piper calls the tune. ( liberals as always go along for free.)

Pondering

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Pondering wrote:

I did not claim that the two Michaels are innocent. I said that they are being treated abusively, unlike Meng who is living like a Queen. If we were willing to treat Meng like the Micheals I think their living conditions would improve dramatically.  But, we aren't willing to do that because here it would be against the law.

They are in prison because they have been convicted of a criminal offense.  You are saying that this woman who owns a residence in Vancouver should never have come here because she knows that Canada has an extradition treaty with the US. We have treaties with over 300 countries. I guess by definition everyone who flies internationally is in the same position she was in before changing flights in Canada. Should we lock up all people who another country wants extradited and put them in solitary confinement or what? Extradition cases always take years so what is the rule of law you think should apply. Currently since there is no violence alleged an ankle bracelet is pretty standard. What punishment do you think she should be undergoing because of these Trumped up charges.

They were convicted in a closed court without reasonable access to lawyers and are being held incomunicado so they may be 100% innocent. In any case we all know that all the countries have spies in each other's countries. 

I don't think she should be punished in any way. I am saying if we were willing to do that the two Michaels would be better treated. Unlike China's laws and judges, Canadian law and judges are protecting Meng from being treated the way they are being treated. 

There are ways in which China is better than Canada but it is silly to claim that the reverse is not also true. I am sickened by the finding of the graves of indigenous children. Nevertheless Tiananmen square didn't happen in Canada.  The depravity of man provides plenty of wrongs to go around and very little earned righteousness. 

kropotkin1951

Pondering wrote:

They were convicted in a closed court without reasonable access to lawyers and are being held incomunicado so they may be 100% innocent. In any case we all know that all the countries have spies in each other's countries.

I guess you do not understand that if you are charged with similar crimes in Canada you get the same treatment. No Western country has open court trials of people charged with espionage.

 

melovesproles

Has Canada even tried to give an alternate explaination for why China chose the two Michaels out the 300,000+ Canadians that live in China if it wasn't related to espionage? Did China supposedly just pick their names out of a hat? 

I get that Michael Spavor is supposed to just be an average small business owner who hangs out with Kim Jong-un. That doesn't sound like someone who would be connected to intelligence. 

Pondering

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Pondering wrote:

They were convicted in a closed court without reasonable access to lawyers and are being held incomunicado so they may be 100% innocent. In any case we all know that all the countries have spies in each other's countries.

I guess you do not understand that if you are charged with similar crimes in Canada you get the same treatment. No Western country has open court trials of people charged with espionage.

https://globalnews.ca/news/6574722/terrorism-in-canada-deradicalization-...

He was one of five terrorism offenders released from Canadian prisons in 2019, despite concerns raised by parole boards that four of them still posed a risk to public safety.

At least three more could be released this year.

Mohamed Hersi, sentenced to 10 years in 2014 for participating in the activities of the Somali terrorist group Al Shabab, is scheduled for statutory release on December 23.

When is the statutory release for the two Michaels? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_certificate#Detention_and_deporta...

When can they choose to be deported instead of detained?

I am certainly willing to acknowledge that somethings in China are better than in Canada but everything isn't better in China. 

kropotkin1951

You just changed the goal posts. So you now concede that an open trial is not a thing in Canada for espionage but you want to talk about the fact that we parole people. I frankly don't know what their system is for early release but I unlike you actually think they have a functioning legal system that they have committed crimes against and will be dealt with like others who have committed those crimes in China. Why should the fact they are Western spies mean they would be given different treatment under the legal system?

As spies the government at any time could release them and show them the door but frankly that train has left the station because even after Trump openly stated that Ming was a trade dispute bargaining chip we continued to hold her for extradition. That is not the international norm and no other country would expect Canada to detain people under those circumstances. I was hopeful that Biden's new AG would abandon the request for extradition but instead the US wants to double down on Trump's trade war.

Pondering

kropotkin1951 wrote:

You just changed the goal posts. So you now concede that an open trial is not a thing in Canada for espionage but you want to talk about the fact that we parole people. I frankly don't know what their system is for early release but I unlike you actually think they have a functioning legal system that they have committed crimes against and will be dealt with like others who have committed those crimes in China. Why should the fact they are Western spies mean they would be given different treatment under the legal system?

As spies the government at any time could release them and show them the door but frankly that train has left the station because even after Trump openly stated that Ming was a trade dispute bargaining chip we continued to hold her for extradition. That is not the international norm and no other country would expect Canada to detain people under those circumstances. I was hopeful that Biden's new AG would abandon the request for extradition but instead the US wants to double down on Trump's trade war.

I'm focusing on the point that in Canada prisoners are treated better than in China if Meng and the two Michaels are any example. I agree that she should be released. I don't understand why her lawyers are not using Trump's words in court but I am not a lawyer. So far Canada has yet to use tanks against Canadian citizens. Some things are better in China but some things are better in Canada. 

 

kropotkin1951

Pondering your white privilege is showing. Here is what our indigenous people face when they try to have their Charter rights taken seriously and not have global capital push pipelines through their unceded territory.

In Canada we do not deploy tanks against our citizens. I call bullshit to that crap.

 

NDPP

Ryanair bomb threat in Belarus - 'western' media narrative disagrees with facts

https://t.co/gNAOysMd9B

"There is still a bit more to learn about the Ryanair flight 4978 from Greece to Lithuania which on May 23 diverted to Minsk after a bomb threat against the plane had been received by several regional airports. The west has waged a media war over the case claiming that Belarus initiated the bomb threat to capture a Belorussian dissident who was on board. However it is clear that the bomb threat happened and that Belarus acted on it by the book.

The quick implementation of a deceiving western narrative lets me believe that the bomb threat was initiated by those who oppose Belarus. It was probably managed by one of those British narrative managers who also wrote the books for the Skripal and Navalny Novichok dramas.

But there are few actual facts to support that narrative. Its 'truth' must be constructed by bending the facts to fit the intended story...There are five major claims made in that one Reuters piece which are demonstrably false. They all support a false narrative. They all put Belarus into a bad light..."

NDPP

Related: Venezuelan diplomat kidnapped by US - held in isolation and denied medical care in Cabo Verde. Free Alex Saab!

https://iacenter.org/2021/06/01/sign-to-free-alex-saab-venezuelan-diplom...

US authorities ordered his arrest and Venezuelan diplomat Alex Saab was pulled off a plane on June 12, 2020, during a refueling stop in the Republic of Cabo Verde, an island nation off Africa's West Coast. Sign now to demand his freedom...

NDPP

Roman Protasevich is spilling the beans

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2021/06/roman-protasevich-casualty-of-the-...

"A TV documentary of the bomb threat against a Ryanair plane (vid) has confirmed out analysis of a false narrative which had been constructed by Belorussian regime change analysts. Roman Protasevich had been betrayed. Other regime change activists, with whom he had disagreed, had sent the bomb threat email to get him trapped. In an interview Protasevich is spilling the beans about the whole foreign financed opposition organization behind the 2020 color revolution attempt in Belarus..."

josh

"I know my son very well and I believe that he would never say such things. They broke him and forced him to say what was needed," he said. "No one should believe these words because they were beaten out, through abuse and torture of my son."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57353413

 

NDPP

'Save our NATO Nazi!'

The Copenhagen Summit for Democracy: The New Nazis

https://journal-neo.org/2021/06/04/the-copenhagen-summit-for-democracy-t...

"On May 10-11 a conference was presented by the 'Alliance of Democracy' in Copenhagen that claimed to 'unite free peoples' against authoritarianism, to promote the rule of law, to advance the 'technological control of democracy,' freedom of expression and US leadership.

But the true purpose of the summit was revealed by the opening invitation from the 12th NATO Secretary-General (2009-2014) and 24th Danish prime minister (2001-2009), Anders Fogh Rasmussen who celebrated the fact that the first summit in 2018 was opened by Joe Biden.

In an opening video, still on their website inviting people to attend, Rasmussen claims that the USA is the 'defender of democracy' against oppression and then immediately cited Belarus..."

melovesproles

josh wrote:

"I know my son very well and I believe that he would never say such things. They broke him and forced him to say what was needed," he said. "No one should believe these words because they were beaten out, through abuse and torture of my son."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57353413

 

Well if his mom vouches for him then that's the case closed.

kropotkin1951

melovesproles wrote:

josh wrote:

"I know my son very well and I believe that he would never say such things. They broke him and forced him to say what was needed," he said. "No one should believe these words because they were beaten out, through abuse and torture of my son."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57353413

 

Well if his mom vouches for him then that's the case closed.

Josh has never read about a NATO Nazi that he didn't emphasis with. Those poor tortured souls just trying to make the world a better place. Death to communism and any body who speaks Russian.

josh

I see someone let the Tankie Twins out.

kropotkin1951

josh wrote:

I see someone let the Tankie Twins out.

After posting on this forum with me for eighteen years that is the best insult you can come up with. But then its been years since you actually said anything except to come on here to vilify the US enemy of the month. What you don't  seem to comprehended is that the House Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC) has no jurisdiction on babble and the ghost of Ronald Regan does not frighten me.

josh

Nor I.  But Zombie Reagan.  Well, that's another matter.

NDPP

'Do as I say not as I do:' Rules-based international order American president:

"Attorney for Venezuelan diplomat Alex Saab, Femi Falana, reveals to me that he's written President Joe Biden twice , asking him to drop the illegal case against his client and respect international law. Biden refuses to even acknowledge the letters."

https://twitter.com/anyaparampil/status/1401621892054892549

kropotkin1951

Here is the "tankie" credo. It is the antithesis of the NATO "rule based international order."

Article 2

The Organization and its Members, in pursuit of the Purposes stated in Article 1, shall act in accordance with the following Principles.

  1. The Organization is based on the principle of the sovereign equality of all its Members.
  2. All Members, in order to ensure to all of them the rights and benefits resulting from membership, shall fulfill in good faith the obligations assumed by them in accordance with the present Charter.
  3. All Members shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice, are not endangered.
  4. All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.
  5. All Members shall give the United Nations every assistance in any action it takes in accordance with the present Charter, and shall refrain from giving assistance to any state against which the United Nations is taking preventive or enforcement action.
  6. The Organization shall ensure that states which are not Members of the United Nations act in accordance with these Principles so far as may be necessary for the maintenance of international peace and security.
  7. Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state or shall require the Members to submit such matters to settlement under the present Charter; but this principle shall not prejudice the application of enforcement measures under Chapter Vll.

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