Bye, bye Scotland, we hardly knew ya!

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swallow swallow's picture

One Ford or another is is in contention for mayor of Toronto. The only threat to the right-wing Alberta Conservative government is a party that thinks Jim Prentice is a dangerous communist. Fdederally, Ontario and most of Canada-outside-Quebec is split between those flocking to the banner of Justin Trudeau, and those sticking with the devil they know. (And Ontario gave us the Harper government.) Canadian politicians are all parties are falling over themselves to pledge allegiance to the some of the most destructive regimes around the world. People prefer periodic little cheques from government to a national daycare system, which would be cheaper and more effective. 

And you think Quebec politics is the farce? 

--

It's entirely possible that the UK, created amongst other reasons to better deploy an effective exercise in cooperative imperialism (rather than England and Scotland each setting up their own colonies, they did it together), was doomed when the British emprie began to dissolve. Scots nationalists have been using the language of anti-colonialism ever since, and they've done it effectively -- almost as if Scotland has not ben part of the colonial power in the first place. 

nicky

For those who appreciate fine political oratory, here is a speech delivered today by Gordon Brown for the "No" side:

 

http://labourlist.org/2014/09/gordon-browns-barnstorming-speech-in-defen...

 

 

Ken Burch

NorthReport wrote:

So if Scotland votes no tomorrow will that end the separatist issue once and for all, or will it go on forever like the farce we have had in Quebec.

Usually these separatist issues are nothing more than than one group holding power and another group wants to grab that power. It has nothing whatsoever to do with bettering life for the citizens.

A "No" probably won't settle the matter, especially since Cameron, who made an elenth-hour "pledge" of new powers to Scotland, may be forced out of the Tory leadership if he actually keeps his word on that, and will likely trigger a second referendum if he doesn't (the survival of the Labour and "Liberal Democrat" leaders in their jobs may also be at risk).

 

lagatta
laine lowe laine lowe's picture

^^ love that cartoon, lagatta.

 

swallow wrote:

Quote:

One Ford or another is is in contention for mayor of Toronto. The only threat to the right-wing Alberta Conservative government is a party that thinks Jim Prentice is a dangerous communist. Fdederally, Ontario and most of Canada-outside-Quebec is split between those flocking to the banner of Justin Trudeau, and those sticking with the devil they know. (And Ontario gave us the Harper government.) Canadian politicians are all parties are falling over themselves to pledge allegiance to the some of the most destructive regimes around the world. People prefer periodic little cheques from government to a national daycare system, which would be cheaper and more effective. 

And you think Quebec politics is the farce?

Touché

Geoff

Ken Burch wrote:

NorthReport wrote:

So if Scotland votes no tomorrow will that end the separatist issue once and for all, or will it go on forever like the farce we have had in Quebec.

Usually these separatist issues are nothing more than than one group holding power and another group wants to grab that power. It has nothing whatsoever to do with bettering life for the citizens.

Sounds like the American Revolution. It didn't do a thing for the average American, but it shifted power into the hands of a homegrown elite.

NorthReport

Maybe Rene was around a few years too early.

Why Scotland looks like the canary in the independence coal mine

http://blogs.reuters.com/mark-leonard/2014/09/16/why-scotland-looks-like...

NorthReport

How the Conservatives became a recruiting sergeant in Scotland

Scotland’s widespread mistrust of Conservative Party could be swing factor in referendum

 

http://www.macleans.ca/news/world/how-the-conservatives-become-a-recruit...

NorthReport

David Cameron - Common People

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TJQ8RxzUgI

Ken Burch

Geoff wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

NorthReport wrote:

So if Scotland votes no tomorrow will that end the separatist issue once and for all, or will it go on forever like the farce we have had in Quebec.

Usually these separatist issues are nothing more than than one group holding power and another group wants to grab that power. It has nothing whatsoever to do with bettering life for the citizens.

Sounds like the American Revolution. It didn't do a thing for the average American, but it shifted power into the hands of a homegrown elite.

Very True.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

NorthReport
NorthReport

DAVID CAMERON Animation singing common people

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgneUbCeFd0

NorthReport

Dont vote Conservative. Cameron.Common People.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ek95shNLIOk

NorthReport
NorthReport

More bullshit from the world's right-wing press

Scottish referendum: Alone, Scotland will go back to being a failed state

Yes supporters are hoping Scotland will become a Scandinavian paradise. But with its history of bitter internal divisions, it is likely to go the opposite way

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11102126/Sc...

Ken Burch

NorthReport wrote:

Then I'll shit on the common people, then I'll shit on the common people like you

The Common People

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKFTtYx2OHc

You should probably put quote marks on the first line of that...otherwise, it looks like that's what YOU are promising to do.

NorthReport

"Then I'll shit on the common people, then I'll shit on the common people like you"

The Common People

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKFTtYx2OHc

--

PS Thanks Ken

cco

Quote:

An overwhelming majority of Tory MPs oppose David Cameron's promise to preserve the Barnett Fomula on top of extra powers for Scots in the event of a no vote, a new poll shows.

The PM faces a bruising showdown with his own backbenchers after promising to retain the formula, which was established in the 1970s and awards Scotland £1,623 a head more in Scotland than in England. The pledge to keep the formula appeared in a joint statement by Cameron, Clegg and Miliband in the Daily Record.

Polling of MP by Dods, the political information service, found 63 per cent think the formula should be changed - including 83 per cent of Tories, 41 per cent of Labour and 78 per cent of Lib Dems.

NorthReport

Darn, keep him there.

After the referendum, the reckoning: why Cameron should fear for his future

The mishandled no campaign in Scotland has left many questioning if Cameron can win the crunch battles ahead

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/18/scottish-referendum...

bekayne

Oh CNN:

View image on Twitter

 

NorthReport

Looks like it's a "No" vote.

Oh well, the people of Scotland have spoken

 

lagatta

Unfortunately, I fear it may be a loss. Or a win for the .00001%

Hope I'm wrong.

cco

The BBC are already popping the champagne with just over 60,000 votes in. And among the panelists, the discussion on reducing Scottish powers is already in full swing.

I hope "Yes" voters have the presence of mind to move their accounts out of banks that threatened to leave, and take their business to other grocery stores.

lagatta

Stockholm will be happy.

cco

Stockholm won't be happy until France votes to be part of England.

Aristotleded24

Anybody have a geographic breakdown as to which regions are likely to support independence in higher numbers? Are the councils that have reported thus far representative or are they skewed one particular way? I remember in 1995 it looked like a oui vote until the ballots from Montreal came in and tipped the balance.

cco

They're doing this count strangely, at only 32 regional "precincts". The ones that have reported so far are very small. Shetland and Orkney were expected to go strongly No (they even threatened counter-secession prior to the vote), but Clackmannshire was expected to be a Yes. Glasgow, the big one, will most likely be last.

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

Listening to BBC Radio Scotland.

You can copy and paste the link below into your favourite "free as in freedom" software media player.

http://bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/rs.asx

 

Ken Burch

Looks like a big win for the 1%-a loss for workers, the poor, activists, and anyone who dreams of a better world.  The last vestiges of the British Fucking Empire survive.  And the Scots will be chained under Thatcherism forever.

Only thing good you can say is, the Scots usually get some good songs out of defeat.

 

NorthReport

What rubbish.

cco wrote:

The BBC are already popping the champagne with just over 60,000 votes in. And among the panelists, the discussion on reducing Scottish powers is already in full swing.

I hope "Yes" voters have the presence of mind to move their accounts out of banks that threatened to leave, and take their business to other grocery stores.

Aristotleded24

Ken Burch wrote:
Looks like a big win for the 1%-a loss for workers, the poor, activists, and anyone who dreams of a better world.  The last vestiges of the British Fucking Empire survive.  And the Scots will be chained under Thatcherism forever.

Are you suggesting that a ''Yes'' vote would have solved all problems that Scotland has, or that Scotland doesn't have its own 1%ers who would exploit workers, the poor, and anyone else who dreams of a better world or that Scotland's 1% wouldn't be able to maintain its ties to the 1% in other parts of the world should Scotland become its own countries? And furthermore, there are also separatists movements in Venezuela and Bolivia coming from the right end of the spectrum. Do we cheer on these movements because then these regions become more autonomous, or do the rules change suddenly because ''our team'' is in charge of those countries?

I haven't expressed a strong opinion on Scotland's independence one way or another. It's not my country, and I'm sure that people in Scotland and Britain can sort this out on their own without asking for my opinion. And I understand that communities having a right to self-determination is an important aspect of left-wing values. But for heaven sake, I've seen too many articles on succession movements boil down to, ''the country we live in has a bad government in charge, but if we form our own country then everything will be perfect and we will be free from the 1%.'' It's simplistic, and I don't think it adds anything to the argument.

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

Inverclyde is the closest result yet.   50.1% No 49.9% Yes

 

 

cco

NorthReport wrote:

What rubbish.

cco wrote:

The BBC are already popping the champagne with just over 60,000 votes in. And among the panelists, the discussion on reducing Scottish powers is already in full swing.

I hope "Yes" voters have the presence of mind to move their accounts out of banks that threatened to leave, and take their business to other grocery stores.


Which part is rubbish? Are you also watching the BBC, and disagree with my assessment of the discussion of the West Lothian question? Or do you just disagree with my idea that those who support an independent Scotland should take their business away from those who have done their best to sabotage it?

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

Didn't quite catch all the numbers but the first results from somewhat larger areas:

Renfrewshire  roughly 55,000 Yes and 62000 No

Dundee was the first victory for the Yes side....53,000 Yes to 39,000 No

 

 

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

OK   Renfewshire 52.81% No to 47.19% Yes

Dundee City 57.35% Yes to 42.65% No.

 

cco

It just tightened to 1995 margins. I'm still pessimistic, but Dundee just kept me from going to bed early.

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

West Dunbartonshire    Yes 33,720 No 28,776  - second victory for Yes.

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

Midlothian 33,972 No to 26,370 Yes

bekayne
Ken Burch

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:
Looks like a big win for the 1%-a loss for workers, the poor, activists, and anyone who dreams of a better world.  The last vestiges of the British Fucking Empire survive.  And the Scots will be chained under Thatcherism forever.

Are you suggesting that a ''Yes'' vote would have solved all problems that Scotland has, or that Scotland doesn't have its own 1%ers who would exploit workers, the poor, and anyone else who dreams of a better world or that Scotland's 1% wouldn't be able to maintain its ties to the 1% in other parts of the world should Scotland become its own countries? And furthermore, there are also separatists movements in Venezuela and Bolivia coming from the right end of the spectrum. Do we cheer on these movements because then these regions become more autonomous, or do the rules change suddenly because ''our team'' is in charge of those countries?

I haven't expressed a strong opinion on Scotland's independence one way or another. It's not my country, and I'm sure that people in Scotland and Britain can sort this out on their own without asking for my opinion. And I understand that communities having a right to self-determination is an important aspect of left-wing values. But for heaven sake, I've seen too many articles on succession movements boil down to, ''the country we live in has a bad government in charge, but if we form our own country then everything will be perfect and we will be free from the 1%.'' It's simplistic, and I don't think it adds anything to the argument.

No, I don't think Scottish independence solves everything for Scotland, or that Quebec independence solves everything for Quebec.

And obviously Scotland has its own 1%.

To me, it was about the chance, at least the possibility, to create a "liberated zone".  
I'm not a nationalist by inclination, and it isn't about hating the English.  But what chance do the workers and the poor of Scotland have of ever getting a just, egalitarian, democratic life if they stay in the last vestiges of the British Empire?

It's not just about the UK having a bad government...it's about it having the UK having no chance of ever getting a GOOD government. Really, what possibilities will ever exist again in the UK for life ever being different?

It feels to me that the "No" are asking the Scots to be masochists in the name of internationalism.  And in asking them to stay in the UK, the "No" are asking the Scots, in the supposed name of "internationalism" to stay in a vestige of imperialism. 

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

East Lothian No 44,283 to Yes 27,467

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

Stirling No 37153 to Yes 25010

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

Falkirk  No 58030 to Yes 50489 

DaveW

BBC has it about 51-49 No at 11.05pm EST, after the big Yes result from stronghold in Dundee;

I will stick with my pre-closing prediction of 54-46 No, which would have appeared to be  a big win for SNP if they had not believed their press clippings in final weeks and hyped  in a Yes victory

time for a federal Britain, congratulations Scotland for prompting that debate

.......

since last post above, 4 new results, and rising to 53-47 No

http://www.bbc.com/news/events/scotland-decides/live

 

 

Sean in Ottawa

DaveW wrote:

BBC has it about 51-49 No at 11.05pm EST, after the big Yes result from stronghold in Dundee;

I will stick with my pre-closing prediction of 54-46 No, which would have appeared to be  a big win for SNP if they had not believed their press clippings in final weeks and hyped  in a Yes victory

time for a federal Britain, congratulations Scotland for prompting that debate

.......

since last post above, 4 new results, and rising to 53-47 No

http://www.bbc.com/news/events/scotland-decides/live

 

 

Agree with you on all counts here

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

Angus No 45192 to Yes 35044

Aberdeen City (this is the largest area yet)   No 84000 to 55,390 Yes

Dumfries & Galloway    No 70039 to Yes 36614

 

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

East Renfrewshire   No 41,000 to Yes 24,287

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

East Dunbartonshire  No 48,300 to Yes 30,624

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

Voter turnouts in the local areas are very high by the way...most areas in the 85-92% range.   Lowest apparently was around 75% in Glasgow.

DaveW

BBC reports that with 16/32 now reporting, overall No vote risen to 56 per cent...

http://www.bbc.com/news/events/scotland-decides/live

 

 

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