Canadian relief in Haiti

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Eastwinds

Fidel wrote:

They need socialism, and to boot the Yanks and their elitist friends the hell out of the country once and for all.

 

You got that right. I'm calling Obama right now and telling him to stop sending any aid to Haiti immediately, no food, no water, blankets,medicine, aid money...stop it all! I'm telling the US elitists to F Off the hell out of Haiti right now, they're not needed!!

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Thank you for your thoughtful contributions to this thread, Eastwinds, in a time of crisis.

Eastwinds

Catchfire wrote:

Thank you for your thoughtful contributions to this thread, Eastwinds, in a time of crisis.

The Haitian earthquake is a terrible tragedy. Tv reports and pictures cannot measure the scope of death and suffering the people are going through.

I would have said it earlier but I had to wade through a couple of other "thoughtful" contributions.

 

safar

Sometimes people get caught up in day to day politics ....you go  Eastwinds..thanks for bringing the thread back on topic!

kropotkin1951

Hopefully this crisis will engage the Americans attention fully. people all over the world would be thankful.

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

There is an immediate humanitarian crisis in Haiti that needs to be dealt with.

But, at the same time we can't forget the two centuries of western colonial oppression that the Haitians have suffered through that has turned this crisis into an absolute catastrophe.

We need to assist Haiti in a spirit of solidarity and not out of charity.

 

 

kropotkin1951

radiorahim wrote:

There is an immediate humanitarian crisis in Haiti that needs to be dealt with.

But, at the same time we can't forget the two centuries of western colonial oppression that the Haitians have suffered through that has turned this crisis into an absolute catastrophe.

We need to assist Haiti in a spirit of solidarity and not out of charity.

 

 

Well said

Bookish Agrarian

I agree, however, if it gets a blanket to a shivering Haitian I really don't care what motivates my neighbour to donate.

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

I agree, however, if it gets a blanket to a shivering Haitian I really don't care what motivates my neighbour to donate.

Quite true.   But while we have people's attention...because over time people tend to forget, we have an opportunity to ask the questions as to why this disaster became the horrific catastrophe that it is.

And if we take at least a little bit of time to look beyond the immediate catastrophe...towards the future, we might be able to prevent future catastrophes.   For instance, after the Asian tsunami, particularly in Sri Lanka I understand, real estate speculators used the crisis to drive the local fishing industry off the beaches so they could build mega tourist hotels.

j.m.

Eastwinds wrote:

Fidel wrote:

They need socialism, and to boot the Yanks and their elitist friends the hell out of the country once and for all.

 

You got that right. I'm calling Obama right now and telling him to stop sending any aid to Haiti immediately, no food, no water, blankets,medicine, aid money...stop it all! I'm telling the US elitists to F Off the hell out of Haiti right now, they're not needed!!

If people have to depend on their oppressors for aid then perhaps oppression isn't a good thing! Obviously principles aren't as precious when there are corporeal needs to be met, but let's not lose our critical bones over this!

 

 

Bookish Agrarian

radiorahim wrote:

Bookish Agrarian wrote:

I agree, however, if it gets a blanket to a shivering Haitian I really don't care what motivates my neighbour to donate.

Quite true.   But while we have people's attention...because over time people tend to forget, we have an opportunity to ask the questions as to why this disaster became the horrific catastrophe that it is.

And if we take at least a little bit of time to look beyond the immediate catastrophe...towards the future, we might be able to prevent future catastrophes.   For instance, after the Asian tsunami, particularly in Sri Lanka I understand, real estate speculators used the crisis to drive the local fishing industry off the beaches so they could build mega tourist hotels.

Oh I agree totally.  I'm just saying is all.

Eastwinds

Jingles wrote:

The only reason the US and Canada are sending warships to the Caribbean is to prevent any of them from attempting an escape. They really don't want rafts full of poor people washing ashore in Florida.

 

As being reported on most media outlets, govt is considering easing immigration rules to allow in Haitians devastated by this tragedy. Both federal and Quebec provincial govts considering this, the latter since so many Haitians live in the Montreal area with family in Haiti. The article does not say if they are considering shooting rafts filled with people(sarcasm)...

 

http://www.globalsaskatoon.com/world/story.html?id=2441168

SparkyOne

Jingles wrote:

The only reason the US and Canada are sending warships to the Caribbean is to prevent any of them from attempting an escape. They really don't want rafts full of poor people washing ashore in Florida.

 

I'm sure that's exactly why we send WAAAAAAAARShips to the Caribbean Jingles. They are going to make WAAAAAAAAR against the homeless displaced and sick down there.  I think they already have a few videos on youtubes of the WAAAAAR ships shooting rafts of fleeing people who were aiming for the sunshine state.  Nice catch!

Geez

Undecided

 

My mom just told me someone was arrested utside of her work tonight. He was taking taking donations for the earthquake she said he lied about being a part of the red cross and was pretending he was a worker collecting for the relief stuff.  That really pisses me off!

Eastwinds

j.m. wrote:

Eastwinds wrote:

Fidel wrote:

They need socialism, and to boot the Yanks and their elitist friends the hell out of the country once and for all.

 

You got that right. I'm calling Obama right now and telling him to stop sending any aid to Haiti immediately, no food, no water, blankets,medicine, aid money...stop it all! I'm telling the US elitists to F Off the hell out of Haiti right now, they're not needed!!

If people have to depend on their oppressors for aid then perhaps oppression isn't a good thing! Obviously principles aren't as precious when there are corporeal needs to be met, but let's not lose our critical bones over this!

 

 

 

It was meant as sarcasm to the person I quoted. The US may not be right in everything, but I think they are doing a good job in this disaster and their efforts will only get better over the next days and weeks.

If this person's mother was trapped under rubble, I would only hope he wouldn't mind a yankee elitist rescue team getting her out.

j.m.

I find the fact that there is hostility towards critical positions (whether or not they are deemed equivocal) and that posters manifest the desire to support immediately pragmatic and substantive solutions to this humanitarian crisis without acknowledging the critical issues (or being critical of them) is very off-putting. This is a public forum for the presentation of ideas; we are not mobilizing anything immediate and material here, so what is the problem with being critical?

I certainly hope that people are finding ways to help with immediate needs (if they can) but spare the hostility towards ideas just because they don't feed, shelter or clothe people or are critical of the politics behind aid or behind aid agencies and states that aid.

j.m.

Eastwinds wrote:

j.m. wrote:

Eastwinds wrote:

Fidel wrote:

They need socialism, and to boot the Yanks and their elitist friends the hell out of the country once and for all.

 

You got that right. I'm calling Obama right now and telling him to stop sending any aid to Haiti immediately, no food, no water, blankets,medicine, aid money...stop it all! I'm telling the US elitists to F Off the hell out of Haiti right now, they're not needed!!

If people have to depend on their oppressors for aid then perhaps oppression isn't a good thing! Obviously principles aren't as precious when there are corporeal needs to be met, but let's not lose our critical bones over this!

 

 

 

It was meant as sarcasm to the person I quoted. The US may not be right in everything, but I think they are doing a good job in this disaster and their efforts will only get better over the next days and weeks.

If this person's mother was trapped under rubble, I would only hope he wouldn't mind a yankee elitist rescue team getting her out.

 

Yes, your message might be agreeable, but it is myopic and done in a way that is also a dig at Fidel. I acknowledge that if a US rescue worker helps, give credit for that act. The problem is that the argument lacks context; it's not just about what the US is doing right now, it is about what they have been doing and continue to do. Also, why does discussion revolve around this imaginary that the West is the hero coming to intervene in the crisis?

kropotkin1951

Eastwinds wrote:

j.m. wrote:

Eastwinds wrote:

Fidel wrote:

They need socialism, and to boot the Yanks and their elitist friends the hell out of the country once and for all.

 

You got that right. I'm calling Obama right now and telling him to stop sending any aid to Haiti immediately, no food, no water, blankets,medicine, aid money...stop it all! I'm telling the US elitists to F Off the hell out of Haiti right now, they're not needed!!

If people have to depend on their oppressors for aid then perhaps oppression isn't a good thing! Obviously principles aren't as precious when there are corporeal needs to be met, but let's not lose our critical bones over this!

 

 

 

It was meant as sarcasm to the person I quoted. The US may not be right in everything, but I think they are doing a good job in this disaster and their efforts will only get better over the next days and weeks.

If this person's mother was trapped under rubble, I would only hope he wouldn't mind a yankee elitist rescue team getting her out.

Better than the Canadian, Venezuelan, Brazilian or European teams?  Your imperialist biases are showing and that is why people are not pleased.  

America has been the problem in Haiti for a very very long time. The fact that they like other countries are helping in this time of need is no reason to praise them.

If they stop bombing innocent people around the world I will say nice things about them in the meant time I am really proud of the mobilization going on in Canada with many groups involved in providing what help they can.

SparkyOne

Because the title is

Canadian relief in Haiti

 

Not ongoing abuse of Haiti by the west.

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

radiorahim wrote:

There is an immediate humanitarian crisis in Haiti that needs to be dealt with.

But, at the same time we can't forget the two centuries of western colonial oppression that the Haitians have suffered through that has turned this crisis into an absolute catastrophe.

We need to assist Haiti in a spirit of solidarity and not out of charity.

 

 

Agreed - well said.

kropotkin1951

nussy wrote:

the US with all its faults always comes through in disasters.

Then ban nussy for beginning the thread drift.  Who needs that trolling crap in a thread about Canadian relief?

j.m.

SparkyOne wrote:

Because the title is

Canadian relief in Haiti

 

Not ongoing abuse of Haiti by the west.

But it can be a celebration of the West's interventions? Why the silence on post number 3, which started the celebration of the US's actions?

I've already articulated this point in post #65.

 

 

SparkyOne

Why the silence? Because it doesn't seem popular here to give credit were it's due. I was actually surprised at the few poserts who commended the US.

It's not a celebration its recognizing effort.  It rubs me the wrong way seeing criticism of relief effort when the person-is sitting in a heated house with running water food and no dead bodies in the front yard. Call me crazy.

Left Turn Left Turn's picture

Adding insult to injury ...

[url=http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60D5JO20100114?type=politicsNews]O... enlists Bush, Clinton to help Haiti[/url]

Quote:
For help he turned to former President Bill Clinton, a Democrat who is already a U.N. special envoy for Haiti, and former President George W. Bush, the Republican who preceded Obama in the White House.

They agreed to a request from Obama to lead private-sector fund-raising efforts, issuing a joint statement expressing deep sadness at the devastation and suffering in Haiti.

Nothing but crocodile tears...

mimeguy

I thought I would give another personalized update from our colleagues in Port au Prince.  It comes from a location, Fermanthe a small community, which is about a 45 minute ride up the mountain outside of the city.  There is a house called Wings of Hope that takes care of mentally and physically challenged children.  It's part of St. Joseph's Home for Boys network. We've learned that one of our regular guides who has worked with us for years is safe but we still don't have word on the others. It is continually stressful that we have no word from cite soleil and our school there. Communications are getting better but the chances of our school community members getting to a computer shortly is remote. So we'll continue to wait.  

Quote from update;

Day 2...is it really only Day 2. In 20 minutes will it really be that only 48 hours have passed since all our lives were turned (literally) upside-down. It seems like a lifetime ago.

Yesterday was shock and confusion. Today is mobilization. I went down to SJ for a few hours this morning and helped move stuff out of the main house and into the art center. The art center is damaged, but not anywhere near what St. Joseph's is like. There was a break-in there last night with people looking for food, so stripping the house was a priority. Michael and Walnes are still spending the night sleeping on the ground at a neighbors, like most of the neighborhood, but they are well.

Bill and TiPatrick are both out of the hospital and seem to be well, considering. They will return tomorrow for a check by some US doctors who were supposed to arrive today. No need now for evacuation for the states, for all those ready to try and arrange that.

Wings is crowded with all the Wings kids and now the SJ boys. Not a lot of space in the visitors dining room and the front of the house for 65+ people, but we are coping. Everyone is pitching in. KC and I moved things from our rooms that are the necessities for both our work and the kids today. The rest will be left. We are also starting to get the guys to move as many supplies from the storage rooms in the new part of the house as possible. Limited time is spent in the new part of the house, as we believe it is unstable and don't know if it will remain standing. There's a lot we don't know right now.

We were able to get a few toys out for the kids today and are trying to give them a sense of the "new" normal as we decide what to do next. There is a lot of organizing and planning to do.

PAP is a mess. There was a real difference in the feeling on the streets today too. People are more desperate for help, food, medical attention, a way out of the suffering and fear, etc.

The aftershocks continue. It is unnerving. I grew up in tornado-land and have been through several hurricanes in Haiti, but nothing is like an earthquake. At least with a tornado and hurricanes you can see them coming and know when they are gone, but with the earthquake there is a continued reminder that we don't know what is coming next and fear is rampent.

Lines of communication are getting better. I was able to talk to my Mom on the phone for a few minutes today. Thanks to all who have reached out to hear with your love and support. I just got word that the internet is working now at Wings (I'm at the Baptist Mission again), so that is good. The next step now is to get a source of power at Wings. The one plug we have is from an inverter and that probably won't last much longer. I gave the guys a bunch of money today to go and try to find a small generator for us. We don't want to run the big generators because of what the vibrations may do to the unstable house. We need one we can wheel outside when it is on, and secure inside when we are not using it. With everything closed down, shopping isn't easy, but they are resourceful!

If I can get online on my own computer I'll try to post some pictures, we'll see how the electricity and internet connection hold out.

Thank you for all your love, support, prayers for all of us. We feel your presence. end quoted update

Eastwinds

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Eastwinds wrote:

j.m. wrote:

Eastwinds wrote:

Fidel wrote:

They need socialism, and to boot the Yanks and their elitist friends the hell out of the country once and for all.

 

You got that right. I'm calling Obama right now and telling him to stop sending any aid to Haiti immediately, no food, no water, blankets,medicine, aid money...stop it all! I'm telling the US elitists to F Off the hell out of Haiti right now, they're not needed!!

If people have to depend on their oppressors for aid then perhaps oppression isn't a good thing! Obviously principles aren't as precious when there are corporeal needs to be met, but let's not lose our critical bones over this!

 

 

 

It was meant as sarcasm to the person I quoted. The US may not be right in everything, but I think they are doing a good job in this disaster and their efforts will only get better over the next days and weeks.

If this person's mother was trapped under rubble, I would only hope he wouldn't mind a yankee elitist rescue team getting her out.

Better than the Canadian, Venezuelan, Brazilian or European teams?  Your imperialist biases are showing and that is why people are not pleased.  

America has been the problem in Haiti for a very very long time. The fact that they like other countries are helping in this time of need is no reason to praise them.

If they stop bombing innocent people around the world I will say nice things about them in the meant time I am really proud of the mobilization going on in Canada with many groups involved in providing what help they can.

 

Where did I say that US efforts were better than anyone else? I was merely pointing out to the person that the US aid efforts are commendable and quite sure many Haitians tonight appreciate it.

 

j.m.

SparkyOne wrote:

Why the silence? Because it doesn't seem popular here to give credit were it's due. I was actually surprised at the few poserts who commended the US.

It's not a celebration its recognizing effort.  It rubs me the wrong way seeing criticism of relief effort when the person-is sitting in a heated house with running water food and no dead bodies in the front yard. Call me crazy.

Being critically engaged on a forum is different than being critical of relief efforts as if one were in the field berating those participating in aid work. But your argument that we should be content with the US right now, where ever we are -regardless of the larger context -is unreasonable. I don't think you can expect people to put politics aside when many aspects of this situation (geologic processes exempt, of course) are a product of politics.

Heated house, running water? Yes, being privileged needs to be acknowledged. But why are you trying to paint people who are critical as being ungrateful? You don't have full access to everyone's actions to make such judgements.

 

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

Eastwinds wrote:

 

Where did I say that US efforts were better than anyone else? I was merely pointing out to the person that the US aid efforts are commendable and quite sure many Haitians tonight appreciate it.

 

 

When that's done to deflect commentary on the hypocrisy of the US, it's very unbabble-like.  Like j.m. said (really happy you've joined j.m. and I've paraphrased) babble's not the place for US cheerleaders.

ceti ceti's picture

Also, look for some disaster capitalism in action. The Clintons are already licking their lips in anticipation of "adjusting" the Haitians even more while perpetuating the cycle of abuse that has gone on since Columbus set foot on Hispaniola in 1492. Indeed, Haiti was GROUND ZERO for the four horsemen of the European Apocalypse -- conquest, genocide, slavery, and disease. 

As for organizations, I would suggest Partners in Health and the Stand With Haiti Campaign. Dr. Paul Farmer is a principled doctor-activist who has been in Haiti for the long-haul.

Erik Redburn

Here's a couple decent organizations that you can donate to, meantime.

 

http://www.devp.org/devpme/main-eng.html

 

http://www.redcross.ca/article.asp?id=000005&tid=003

 

 

 

j.m.

Here is Canadian relief on Haiti (the kind we need for critical public forums):

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/14/naomi_klein_issues_haiti_disaster_...

Erik Redburn

:)  I doubt there'll be a shortage of critiques on our own role in keeping Haiti so vulnerable to natural disasters....   Another question that could be asked politically is why we're taking so much time amassing a media friendly armada of temporary relief, when we already have forces on the ground that could/should already be helping rescue the thousands buried under the rubble(?)   Their particular time line for survival may only be a matter of hrs now.  

Meantime though there's no reason we can't also make some immediate contribution$ ourselves.   

Fidel

[url=http://www.ndp.ca/press/canadian-credit-card-companies-should-waive-fees... Card Companies Skimming Three Percent From Your Donation to Desperate Haitians[/url]

Quote:
New Democrat Consumer Protection Critic Glenn Thibeault urges MasterCard and Visa to follow Capital One's example

OTTAWA – As a massive relief effort gets underway in earthquake-ravaged Haiti, Canadians across the country are opening their wallets and donating what they can to relief organizations through their websites and crisis hotlines.

What these generous citizens may not realize is that only 97 per cent of these donations will actually make it to organizations like the Canadian Red Cross or Oxfam - the other 3 percent will be skimmed off by banks and credit card companies to cover their “transaction costs.”

“It is completely disgusting that banks and credit card companies are making huge profits off of people’s charitable donations,” said New Democrat consumer protection Critic Glenn Thibeault (Sudbury). “The fact that they may take in millions more in times of crisis is downright deplorable.”

Capital One is the sole credit card provider which, through its “No Hassle Giving Site,” waives all transaction costs for holders of its Visa or MasterCard cards. Every cent of each donation goes to the cardholder’s chosen charity.

Parasites profiting from death and misery.

Lou Arab Lou Arab's picture

RevolutionPlease wrote:

When that's done to deflect commentary on the hypocrisy of the US, it's very unbabble-like.  Like j.m. said (really happy you've joined j.m. and I've paraphrased) babble's not the place for US cheerleaders.

 

'Unbabble-like'?

What's next - have you now, or have you ever been a card-carrying American?

That sort of jingoistic, McCarthy-like baiting leaves me cold.

RP - you don't have to agree with those applauding US action, but is the name calling really necessary?

Sven Sven's picture

Lou Arab wrote:

RevolutionPlease wrote:

When that's done to deflect commentary on the hypocrisy of the US, it's very unbabble-like.  Like j.m. said (really happy you've joined j.m. and I've paraphrased) babble's not the place for US cheerleaders.

'Unbabble-like'?

What's next - have you now, or have you ever been a card-carrying American?

That sort of jingoistic, McCarthy-like baiting leaves me cold.

Ah, Lou?  You must not be familiar with the Unified Theory of Babble (i.e., all problems are rooted in the fact that America exists).  This theory holds true even if America appears, to the average person, to be engaged in doing something positive: It's only appearance -- and there must be some evil ulterior motive to explain it.

Therefore, any kudos for any American action is strictly verboten on babble.

It's quite simple, really.

j.m.

Sven wrote:

Lou Arab wrote:

RevolutionPlease wrote:

When that's done to deflect commentary on the hypocrisy of the US, it's very unbabble-like.  Like j.m. said (really happy you've joined j.m. and I've paraphrased) babble's not the place for US cheerleaders.

'Unbabble-like'?

What's next - have you now, or have you ever been a card-carrying American?

That sort of jingoistic, McCarthy-like baiting leaves me cold.

Ah, Lou?  You must not be familiar with the Unified Theory of Babble (i.e., all problems are rooted in the fact that America exists).  This theory holds true even if America appears, to the average person, to be engaged in doing something positive: It's only appearance -- and there must be some evil ulterior motive to explain it.

Therefore, any kudos for any American action is strictly verboten on babble.

It's quite simple, really.

How did a thread about Canadian aid turn into a thread about how GREAT American aid is? Read the first ten posts and you'll find that the conversation veered immediately into how US aids greatly and how the West comes through. The real problem is that there are so many apologists on this board willing to celebrate hegemons' good deeds as if they were taking the week off from politics. I think the question should be asked: "why are there certain people so willing to point out the good deeds of Western states, who have engaged in exploitative relationships with of Haitian people, when: (1) many countries are making great efforts (wiki if you must); (2) there is a lot of local solidarity in Haiti that could be highlighted; (3) individuals are making contributions not affiliated with any state?" I think there is nothing more problematic than a stance that highlights the US's efforts (a country which time and time again has laden aid packages with their ulterior motives) which, intentionally or not, pushes other efforts to the margin, and remains uncritical of the political motives of the US.

Sven and Lou Arab, you are quick to attack people on a critical forum for being critical, and are so bold as to call those who point out US hypocrisy as "jingoist, McCarthy-like", or to suggest that there is some sort of "babble theory" that is dogmatic and uncritical. Why do you come here if you antagonize people who are critical - on a critical forum - and then bait arguments with these words? Babble is not CBC, G&M, or some mainstream paper where ideas that are problematic emerge without contestation.

PraetorianFour

j.m wrote:
Why do you come here if you antagonize people who are critical - on a critical forum - and then bait arguments with these words? Babble is not CBC, G&M, or some mainstream paper where ideas that are problematic emerge without contestation.

babble: If you don't love it leave (=

ennir

I don't see Canada's efforts as different from the U.S. and I would say given the hell that has been inflicted on the Haitian people by the acts of the U.S and Canada that their aid is entirely rooted in corrupt self-interest.  I am glad that some may benefit from this help but in no way do I think they deserve any credit for helping. 

As to organizations and donations, the Red Cross will never see another dime from me.  IMO donations should go to organization that are led by Haitians.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

U.S. Cheerleading has never been a part of babble, especially when it consists of uncritical approval of charity whose impetus was created deliberately by the United States. Hence, un-babble like. To call this position jingoistic and McCarthyist not only leaves me cold, it lacks the anti-imperialist analysis we pretty much take for granted around here. Lou Arab, I would encourage you to reconsider RP's posts, especially in light of Sven's enthusiastic baiting.

Michelle

I don't know how I ended up following this person on Twitter, but I'm following some politician in the US, and she tweeted this recently:

Quote:
Heartsick over the devastation in Haiti. I'm proud of my country for helping. Prayers for the families of Haiti.

Really?  You're proud of your country, are you?  Your country has "helped" Haiti right into this mess, and any "help" you give now is a long overdue repayment.

Haiti earthquake: Made in USA

And that goes for Canada, too.

 

Michelle

Eastwinds wrote:

Fidel wrote:

They need socialism, and to boot the Yanks and their elitist friends the hell out of the country once and for all.

You got that right. I'm calling Obama right now and telling him to stop sending any aid to Haiti immediately, no food, no water, blankets,medicine, aid money...stop it all! I'm telling the US elitists to F Off the hell out of Haiti right now, they're not needed!!

Eastwinds wrote:

The Haitian earthquake is a terrible tragedy. Tv reports and pictures cannot measure the scope of death and suffering the people are going through.

I would have said it earlier but I had to wade through a couple of other "thoughtful" contributions.

Hey, I'll tell you what, if you don't like left-wing political analysis, and you just want to hear, "Oh, what a tragedy!" and "Isn't the USA wonderful?  No one's allowed to be critical of the US role in Haiti now that they're helping!" then here are a couple of web sites you might want to try:

Hallmark Cards

Republican Party

kropotkin1951

Imperialism is the problem.  I would be railing against the British if it was a hundred years ago because imperialist countries cause misery they do not improve the lives of others no matter how many spin doctors America employs. There is no "White Man's Burden" and there is no need for "Making the World Safe for Democracy."  Imperial propaganda doesn't change the fact that Haiti has been under the US sphere of influence for most of the last hundred years and it is the poorest country in the hemisphere. That was the situation before the quake and it is the reason that the quake killed so many.  In Haiti of course our own home grown Canadian imperialists have been part of the ongoing misery as well which is why I would never think of CEDA as an aid organization but rather a development arm of Canadian corporations.

It is so very tiring to have trolls like Sven and nussy derail discussions by telling us how disliking imperialism is wrong.  A libertarian that loves the largest empire the world has known is either an oxymoron or a moron.  Leave us alone if you don't like the babble "theory" and go to Free Dominion or some other American imperialist "libertarian" site.

Lou Arab Lou Arab's picture

j.m. wrote:

Sven and Lou Arab, you are quick to attack people on a critical forum for being critical, and are so bold as to call those who point out US hypocrisy as "jingoist, McCarthy-like", or to suggest that there is some sort of "babble theory" that is dogmatic and uncritical. Why do you come here if you antagonize people who are critical - on a critical forum - and then bait arguments with these words? Babble is not CBC, G&M, or some mainstream paper where ideas that are problematic emerge without contestation.

Attack US policy in Haiti all you like.  It's a great big target.  I just don't care for the language of 'anti-babble' activities if someone has a different viewpoint.   And I'm not 'attacking' anyone, merely suggesting a different tone.

Lou Arab Lou Arab's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

It is so very tiring to have trolls like Sven and nussy derail discussions by telling us how disliking imperialism is wrong.  A libertarian that loves the largest empire the world has known is either an oxymoron or a moron.  Leave us alone if you don't like the babble "theory" and go to Free Dominion or some other American imperialist "libertarian" site.

I don't believe Sven is a troll, and I don't believe what he was doing (in his one and only post on this thread so far) was aruging that it was wrong to attack imperialism.  My read on his remarks is that just because the US is wrong 9 out of 10 times, doesn't mean it's impossible to suggest they can occasionally do something right.

Michelle

I agree with Lou, that people can post differing opinions here if they like - I don't have a problem with Sven's posts in this thread, even though he's wrong. ;)  (Sorry, couldn't resist.) 

But I do think that Eastwinds set the tone that he got back.  Doesn't mean it's okay for everyone to pile in and do the same thing, but I think this was kind of a case of garbage in, garbage out, and a predictable outcome right from Eastwind's sarcastic post that I quoted above.

kropotkin1951

Sven wrote:

You must not be familiar with the Unified Theory of Babble (i.e., all problems are rooted in the fact that America exists).  This theory holds true even if America appears, to the average person, to be engaged in doing something positive: It's only appearance -- and there must be some evil ulterior motive to explain it.

Therefore, any kudos for any American action is strictly verboten on babble.

It's quite simple, really.

So that is not trolling?  

Quote:
You agree to avoid personal insults, attacks and mischievous antagonism (otherwise known as "trolling").

Does that mean you think he was being malicious not mischievous when he uses the phrase "UTB" and "verboten."  I don't often publicly disagree but his comment is specifically designed to piss people off and this exact comment has derailed numerous threads on important issues.  

safar

Just in case anyone is interested

Field Update : Haiti disaster by msf:

http://www.donorchoice.com/msf/images/emerg-header-EN-Haiti.gif

Michelle

You're probably right, kropotkin.  I don't know, sometimes I feel like people are losing the ability to just skip over comments like that, or snicker at them and move on, you know?  Sure, it's not strictly in line, but it's also not that terrible either, right?  Not worth telling someone to leave, which I think it what Lou was getting at. 

Anyhow, I probably could have nipped all of this in the bud by getting after Eastwinds when he started the sarcastic tone.  I saw it when he posted it but thought that the conversation had moved on so I didn't bother.  Guess I should have.  Sorry.

Michelle

Say, is this 100 posts yet?

Michelle

Close enough!  I'll close it and we can continue to discuss Haiti here.

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