Chavez, Ortega, back Gaddafi oppression

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Freedom 55

Fidel wrote:

Wesley Clark admitted publicly to reading a US Defense Dept. memo in the mid 2000s that described a list of countries targeted for regime change within half a dozen years or so. Libya was on the list as were Iraq and Iran, Syria, Lebanon etc. How can apologists for the vicious empire possibly make them appear to be so many bungling Road to Singapore clowns in the service of imperialism in the way Bob Hope and Bing Crosby were when that kind of smoking gun confession by a former NATO supreme commander is dropped for the whole world to scoop?

It's like Chomsky describes. The world is run like the mafia, and nothing goes down without the godfather's approval..

 

I make to-do lists all the time. Sometimes shit gets done by someone else before I get around to it.

 

To whatever extent Chomsky's theory is correct, I think it only applies to state actors. People are certainly capable of saying 'enough is enough', and rising-up against their oppressors without needing the assistance or permission of the U.S.

 

I have to agree that denying the agency of the peoples of Libya, Egypt, and elsewhere comes across as racist.

Freedom 55

Edit: double post

Fidel

Freedom 55 wrote:
I make to-do lists all the time. Sometimes shit gets done by someone else before I get around to it.

And in this case, the US has been fairly successful in convincing NATO allies that Yugoslavia needed a good shellacking after their own neoliberal-IMF policies made basket cases of economies in the former Yugoslavia. Prep'ing those countries for civil war was made easier by spiriting the unemployed mujahideen and al-CIA'da into Bosnia in aiding Izetbeovic to create a purer state modelled on one people, one nation and one fuhrer.

These apologists can't possibly deny that the vicious empire has been on the rampage and marauding into sovereign and oil-rich countries by way of: color revolutions and conquering capital or by US-led blitzkriegs and marching across borders uninvited.

Freedom 55 wrote:
To whatever extent Chomsky's theory is correct, I think it only applies to state actors. People are certainly capable of saying 'enough is enough', and rising-up against their oppressors without needing the assistance or permission of the U.S.

I have to agree that denying the agency of the peoples of Libya, Egypt, and elsewhere comes across as racist.

But no one here has said this only you and sanizadeh so far. The pattern and precedent for neoliberal sabotage of economies is there since Chile in 1970s, and Vietnam and Cambodia since the 1990s through to Balkanization of the former Yugoslavia and deliberate pauperizations of South Africa, Thailand, Argentina, Russia and various colour revolutions in Baltics, Ukraine and Georgia so on. Most of those countries have experienced civil unrest, and it's fairly well established by the left that the CIA and US Government and NATO allies all played a hand in destroying those economies with policies for opening them up to marauding capital that has led to social unrest observed in most all of them. Libya is not alone in accepting IMF diktats tied to emergency loans. Sanctions and medieval sieges have worked to devastate a number of countries besides Iraq and Iran, North Korea and Cuba.

Yes there will be social upheaval as a result, is what I am saying. I deny having ever said that "brown people" have no initiative or courage to rise up against their oppressors. That is a bald faced lie, and I will be complaining to moderators.

Doug

Things can and do happen in the world without the participation or instigation of the US - and that's going to be more and more the case as it continues its relative decline in the world.

DaveW

Frmrsldr wrote:

milo204 wrote:
I don't see this at all as a CIA/western inspired revolution at all.  Why on earth would the CIA try and overthrow dictators it already had in their pocket?  

 What is occurring in the Mideast right now, are the peoples' natural reaction to these decades of (U.S./Western/Israel backed) abuse, murder (by police and/or war), torture, imprisonment, exploitation and oppression.

 

Khaddafi just another Western puppet.... who knew??Surprised

 

 as another imperialist running dog denounces the regime:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8349048/Libyas-UN-ambassador-denounces-Gaddafi.html

 

 

Ghislaine

[url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41793330/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/] Gadhafi 'opens the arms depot' to supporters [/url]:

 

Quote:
A popular uprising throughout the country has posed the biggest challenge Gadhafi has faced in his 42-year rule. He has maintained control in the capital by using violence on protesters, though rebels have seized control of about half of Libya's coastline.

Pro-Gadhafi forces opened fire Friday on demonstrations after Muslim prayers, and Gadhafi told supporters he would "open the arms depot so all Libyans and tribes become armed."

Residents contacted by phone from Cairo on Saturday reported trucks of pro-regime civilians patrolling the streets. They spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of retribution.

"Peace is coming back to our country," one of Gadhafi's sons, Saif al-Islam Gadhafi, told reporters flown into Libya under close supervision.

"If you hear fireworks don't mistake it for shooting," the 38-year-old London-educated younger Gadhafi said, smiling.

He acknowledged pro-Gadhafi forces had "a problem" with Misurata, Libya's third-largest city, and Zawiya, also in the west, where protesters had beaten back counter-attacks by the military but said the army was prepared to negotiate.

"Hopefully there will be no more bloodshed. By tomorrow we will solve this," he said on Friday evening.

 

There should definitely be NO Western intervention (other than rescueing our citizens), as this is up to the Libyan people to work out/fight out, etc.

However, that does not mean it is "too early" to denounce Ghaddafi.

 

One other point. Newscasters keep referring to this as a "people's revolution", however I have not noticed any women in images coming out of the country or in the footage with Carolyn Dunn (CBC reporter currently in eastern Libya). Perhaps when only men are involved...it should be termed as such?

 

 

Unionist

Frmrsldr wrote:

In other words, what goes on in Libya isn't anyone else's affair but that of Libyans. Let the Libyans decide for themselves the future direction of their country.

NO FOREIGN INTERVENTION IN LIBYA!

Precisely. And for "Libya", you can substitute Egypt, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, etc.

 

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

Going by past precedents, the so-called Western countries will sell arms to both sides and denounce whoever is winning. That way, the fighting will continue, the political aims of meddling will continue and, above all, sales will continue, and the "civilized" countries can quietly applaud while Libyan kills Libyan.

Buddy Kat

I'll tell you one thing ....the amount of killing the US has done in the last 10years makes all the killing done by all dictator anywhere all put together look like nothing..nothing at all..

The only difference is..the ones done by dictators is rammed down your throat at nauseum..the ones done by the US and it's allies are COVERED UP..rarely reported .

With the occasional wiki leaks possibly exposing one or two...

Don't worry US your civil war is coming..and it's probably going to start this weekend...then we'll see who kills whose own people...as they are so armed to the teeth and kill with impunity all over the world..it should be real armchair entertainment watching them do there media coverage on that.

USA! USA! How many kids did you kill today!??
Answer ..too many to count and more than the cruelest regime of all time.
Should be tatooed on every Americans forehead,with a branding iron.Yell

 

 

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Buddy Kat wrote:

Should be tatooed on every Americans forehead,with a branding iron.Yell

Nice... Why don't you come down here and start with me? But then you might not like where that branding iron ends up...Wink

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

Over the top language is entirely understandable given the horrific and seemingly unending foreign (and domestic) atrocities and war crimes by the US regimes. The fact that this stream of bloody crimes is accompanied by the most sophisticated propaganda so that even the victims of the crimes are bewildered by it just makes it all the worse.

Unionist

Canadians who jump to condemn Gadhafi, but have nothing, ever, to say about daily Canadian and U.S. atrocities against foreign peoples (PM me if you haven't heard about Afghanistan, for instance), are really not worth debating here. Their minds are made up - as is mine - might as well leave it at that.

Having said that, I particular enjoyed the comment upthread by the babbler who said:

Quote:
The United States and NATO, militarily speaking, have no plans whatsoever when it comes to Libya.

... and cited as his source this statement from NATO:

Quote:
I would like to stress that NATO as such has no plans to intervene. We have not received any request in that regard and any actions should be based on a UN mandate.

... the same thing they might well have said the day before they invaded Afghanistan.

Is this really so complicated?

 

Buddy Kat

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:

Buddy Kat wrote:

Should be tatooed on every Americans forehead,with a branding iron.Yell

Nice... Why don't you come down here and start with me? But then you might not like where that branding iron ends up...Wink

No need to get lippy...it's your country commiting the attrocities .. .like I said the US day's  is coming….If  civil war don’t get those creators of terror  ..Ahanaduinajad will..and after that you won’t even have a forehead left to brand much less an arse to stick it up sideways.Surprised

 

The internet is exposing the US and all it’s attrocities for what they are…24/7 and the world is waking up to it….their best bet…build plasma engines and escape the wrath of the planet…..or run to Canada like they all did during the Vietnam war.Sealed

 

 

USA! USA How many children have you killed today!??

 

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkM5eyN8ytI&feature=user

Fidel

Doug wrote:

Things can and do happen in the world without the participation or instigation of the US - and that's going to be more and more the case as it continues its relative decline in the world.

I think Gadaffi had few alternatives but to resume relations with the US after a 23 year-long US-led siege of his country. The illegal bombing and invasion of Iraq that led to Saddam's hanging was enough to convince Gadaffi of the USA's treachery and betrayal of their own stooges in oil-rich countries. A televised debate of the 15th Arab League Summit in Sharm el-Sheikh had to be cancelled because Gadaffi was shouting at Saudi Arabia's stoogeaucracy for collaborating with the US against Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein. He told Arab world leaders that they could be next and that nothing could stop American led blitzkriegs against them on the whims of Washington plutocrats instructed and directed by multinational energy conglomerates. Instigation is a relative term as far as the CIA and US central war planners are concerned. Making economies scream has been going on since before the doctor and the madman helped out a military coup against Salvador Allende on 9/11/73.

We're talking about "Coups R US" Central here not some wallflower country without corporate interests in monopolizing world oil reserves. It all began when the US cutoff Japan's oil supplies. That country's economy "screamed" and they had few choices but to go to war. Nowadays, who can make war with the beast? Not very many, and it's not by accident that the most oil-rich countries are having a string of amazingly bad luck with illegal sanctions and trade embagos, and problems with right wing fundamentilism since Z-big Brzezinski described people living in "arc of crises" nations so insanely and in pathologically racist terms as a bunch of "stirred up Muslims".

 "Who controls the food supply controls the people; who controls the energy can control whole continents; who controls money can control the world." 

They and their corporate friends control two of three of those "commodities" now to a large extent and still working on the third item, oil. When that happens, it's check mate. They don't believe that everything is held in common and subject to votes. They don't believe in free market baloney at all. In fact, they do not believe in anything except their own masterful control over the world and everything in it.

 

al-Qa'bong

sanizadeh wrote:

Unionist wrote:

I read this thread and am amazed at how self-styled progressives, at the first report of atrocities in some far-away country, rally to attack heroic fighters like Chavez and Castro, and to support Obama and "our" way of life. It's fairly skin deep, isn't it.

I am more amazed at the fact that some self-styled leftists here (not you, unionist), who supposedly must be in favour of people's power and people's movements, find it so hard to believe that the people of third world countries MIGHT be able to attempt to overthrow their rulers without being instigated by CIA or the US or the west in general. Seems western supremacy and racism is ingrained in some people's mind whether they are left or right.

Yes, sanizadeh, and this is the principal argument we're having in the "Obama, liberator of the Arab world" thread right now.

My guess is that people who have had a steady diet of anti-Arab propaganda for decades have a difficult time seeing Arabs as anything but violent fanatics.  Seeing Arabs engaged in secular non-violent democratic revolts is impossible for minds so propagandised to register.

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

al-Qa'bong wrote:

  Seeing Arabs engaged in secular non-violent democratic revolts is impossible for minds so propagandised to register.

What's happening in Libya is extremely violent because the dictator declared war on his own people. I'd agree this is the exception  of the revolts we've seen so far.

Fidel

And yet friends of the Arabs are all so ready to turn a blind eye to the real right wing fanatics who foment and shit stir these kinds of rebellions all across the "arc of crises" nations and more.

Oh look, here is Businessweek regurgitating Gadaffi's political opposition [url=http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-02-26/qaddafi-vows-more-deadly-att... Front for the Salvation of Libya[/url] on Libya's new civil war.

And  [url=http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/North_Africa/CrimesAgainstHumanity_Cha... the NFSL is described as a front group for imperialists aided and abetted by the CIA,  French intel  and our excellent imperialist friends the Saudis as early as the 1980s.

Quote:
US official records indicate that funds for the Chad-based covert war against Libya also came from Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Morocco, Israel and Iraq. The Saudis, for instance, gave $7 million to an opposition group, the National Front for the Salvation of Libya (also backed by French intelligence and the CIA). However, a plan to assassinate Gadafi and seize power on May 8th 1984 was crushed. In the following year, the US asked Egypt to invade Libya and overthrow Gadafi but President Mubarak refused. By the end of 1985, the Washington Post had exposed the plan after congressional leaders opposing it wrote in protest to President Reagan.

[url=http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/778668/posts]MI6 hired Al CIA'duh to kill Gaddafi: ex-official[/url] 2002

What kind of democracy is it when the democratizers try to assassinate other countries' leaders? Is it democracy according to Don Corelone?

Stinking fascist mitts off Libya!

Fidel

And they'd scream like hell if another country was funelling millions of dollars to the NDP and Bloc.

NDPP

First Egypt, Next Venezuela?

http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/46804

"As the wave of popular uprisings has spread across the Arab world, a flurry of articles have appeared suggesting Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez could be the next 'dictator' to be overthrown...They aim to conceal the real threat that haunts imperialism - that the Arab world may follow the example of Venezuela and other countries in Latin America - and break away from Western hegemony.."

Fidel

As far as I can tell, the US-backed military dictatorship is still running things in Cairo.

Oh look! Similar to Libya, Venezuela just so happens to have oil, too. What are the odds?

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Libya: Who is propping up Gaddafi?

 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12558066

 

Quote:

Unlike in Egypt or Tunisia, it is not the conventional military that holds the balance of power in Libya.
Instead, it is a murky network of paramilitary brigades, "revolutionary committees" of trusted followers, tribal leaders and imported foreign mercenaries.

While Castro, Chavez and others might be lending Gadaffi "support", more out of friendship than thinking he should stay in power I suspect, they are in no way keeping him in power.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Fidel likes to avoid having to actually come down on one side or another of a foreign conflict by the simple expedient of claiming that all sides are fronting for the CIA. He does the same thing with Afghanistan.

So in Libya, whether Qaddafi succeeds in crushing the rebels, or the latter win decisively over the former, Fidel will be able to chalk it up as another success for U.S. imperialism.

In Fidel's world, there are never any victories against imperialism. The all-knowing, all-powerful CIA makes sure of that.

Snert Snert's picture

Quote:
While Castro, Chavez and others might be lending Gadaffi "support", more out of friendship than thinking he should stay in power

 

A man is known by the company he keeps. If either of them is witholding intelligent commentary on this situation to avoid having an awkward moment with their buddy then they've truly lost their way.

 

That said, has anyone heard more from Castro on this? Is it "time" yet?? No??

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

Has anyone heard from Bush or Blair?  They were very helpful to the Libyan regime and they like Fidel Castro don't lead their respective governments anymore.  

Does anyone here know what the official Cuban response is?  I am having a hard time following this thread because it seems people expect Fidel and not Raol to be making statements on behalf of the Cuban government.  Should we be looking to Cretien to judge the Canadian response or would the current Prime Minister's view be more appropriate and relevant.

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Snert wrote:

If either of them is witholding intelligent commentary on this situation to avoid having an awkward moment with their buddy then they've truly lost their way.

 

 

Still I can respect them for showing some loyalty to a friend in trouble; it's something you don't see much of today. They are a part of a small unique group of world leaders and they know they have to stick together so I doubt they'd do it (criticize him) publicly anyways, at least not yet. Who knows, perhaps they can convince him to leave instead of fighting to the death and tearing the country to bits worst than what it is.

 

Snert Snert's picture

Quote:
I am having a hard time following this thread because it seems people expect Fidel and not Raol to be making statements on behalf of the Cuban government.  Should we be looking to Cretien to judge the Canadian response or would the current Prime Minister's view be more appropriate and relevant.

 

Nobody forced Castro to speak about this, but once he does, it's not unreasonable to think he'd continue. And if he wants to let his dynastic successor speak, he can always mind his knitting. I'm sure the two brothers can work that out.

 

If Jean Chretien wants to speak, I suppose he can too. Maybe he understands "retirement" better than Fidel.

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

M. Spector wrote:

Fidel likes to avoid having to actually come down on one side or another of a foreign conflict by the simple expedient of claiming that all sides are fronting for the CIA. He does the same thing with Afghanistan.

So in Libya, whether Qaddafi succeeds in crushing the rebels, or the latter win decisively over the former, Fidel will be able to chalk it up as another success for U.S. imperialism.

In Fidel's world, there are never any victories against imperialism. The all-knowing, all-powerful CIA makes sure of that.

 

Yes, don't you know, the CIA is an all knowing and controlling world dominating cabal with tentacles all over the planet. Resistance is futile... NOTHING on this planet happens without their hand being in it. Because as we all know the CIA has an earthquake machine; in the room next to the hurricane machine; down the hall from the world leader mind control machine; right next to the people thought manipulator machine.

 

I bet there's a CIA guys peeking in your window right now as a matter of fact... (unless the polar bear waiting outside your door got himWink). I shot the one outside my window last week; but another one is back already. They are persistant to say the least.

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

Fidel Castro is an old man with no real political power.  Seems like an appropriate red herring whipping boy for the MSM North American media.  Of course Cretien was a second rate politician of a third rate power not a world leader so no one would seek out his views on anything.  

"Dynastic successor",  interesting term.  Would your definition include the Kennedy's and Bush's and have you ever referred to them as such? Would Jeb following George the Father and George the Brother be a dynastic succession? If Trudeau wins the next Liberal leadership and goes on to be PM would he be a dynastic successor? I ask because I am trying to tell where you are coming from with your politics.  Are you actually saying that Cuba has an illegitimate government? If so how do the USA or Russia or China or Saudi Arabia or Sri Lanka or other countries rate in this hierarchy of governments?

Slumberjack

The CIA is a US citizen supported, corporate controlled death squad, staffed with the dregs of humanity.

Snert Snert's picture

Quote:
Of course Cretien was a second rate politician of a third rate power not a world leader so no one would seek out his views on anything.  

 

My point was that nobody "sought out" Castro's views either.

 

Quote:
Would Jeb following George the Father and George the Brother be a dynastic succession?

 

Something like, though dynasties don't leave gaps. That said, have you never heard anyone refer to "the Kennedy dynasty"?

 

 

A_J

milo204 wrote:

I don't see this at all as a CIA/western inspired revolution at all.  Why on earth would the CIA try and overthrow dictators it already had in their pocket?

Some people like to have things both ways because it serves their particular purposes: "Gaddaffi is a puppet of the CIA . . . and the CIA is interferring in Libya to overthrow him!" . . . of course, implicit in that is the belief that non-Western people are incapable of governing, or rebelling, on their own.

Fidel

Ya the CIA are just babes in the woods on this one, too. ffs

Snert Snert's picture

The CIA is GOD:  all-knowing, all-seeing, invisible, can be everywhere at once, and of course omnipotent.

But riddle me this: if the CIA is all powerful, can they redact a document such that even they cannot read it?

Le T Le T's picture

So now that the US Military is circling up around Libya are people still holding onto the naive idea that NATO/US/West is just sitting by letting the people of Libya have their revolution?

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

Snert wrote:

Quote:
Of course Cretien was a second rate politician of a third rate power not a world leader so no one would seek out his views on anything.  

 

My point was that nobody "sought out" Castro's views either.

Quote:

Mr. Castro's comments in his Tuesday newspaper column "Reflections of Fidel" were more oblique, saying it was too soon to criticize Col. Gadhafi.

"An honest person will always be against any injustice committed against any people in the world," Mr. Castro wrote. "And the worst of those at this instant would be to keep silent before the crime that NATO is preparing to commit against the Libyan people."

The Cuban revolutionary leader and long-time Marxist dictator insists that NATO is preparing an invasion of Libya to seize its oil.

 

Seems you missed the point that he writes a column that is read and commented on by western media and people like you. You and the British media can chose to ignore his columns at anytime. When his columns have as many readers as Cretien's memoirs I will agree that no one has "sought out" his views. In the meantime seems like many people seek out his opinion and post links to articles and generally discuss his views.  You are a good example of someone who must care because you comment on him.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

[url=http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/2011/reyes250211.html]Cuba's ambassador to the UN Human Rights Council made his country's position clear three days ago.[/url]

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

M. Spector wrote:

[url=http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/2011/reyes250211.html]Cuba's ambassador to the UN Human Rights Council made his country's position clear three days ago.[/url]

Thx 

Quote:

To conclude, Mr. President, Cuba wishes to issue a call for calm and to reiterate its confidence in the capacity of the Libyan people to resolve their internal problems without any foreign interference and to preserve the peace, stability, and sovereignty of their country

Fidel

Snert wrote:

The CIA is GOD:  all-knowing, all-seeing, invisible, can be everywhere at once, and of course omnipotent.

[url=http://www.fas.org/irp/budget/index.html]$80 billion for the CIA, $50 billion for black ops[/url] 2009 redacted

Thousands of spooks in every major city around the world and more omnipotent than the Church. That pays for a lot of quiet Americans abroad.

And the STASI would have been envious of the NSA&Telecoms technical abilities for spying on Americans. NSA is an agency supposedly gathering intel on foreign militaries, but their real job is to spy on the lives of millions of Americans and reporting back to shadow government.

A_J

Fun Fact: Chavez has a stadium in Benghazi named after him.  Of course, that means it's currently in the hands of the opposition (I wonder what effect that has on his reaction to events in Libya?).

Snert Snert's picture

Quote:
Seems you missed the point that he writes a column that is read and commented on by western media and people like you. You and the British media can chose to ignore his columns at anytime. When his columns have as many readers as Cretien's memoirs I will agree that no one has "sought out" his views.

 

I was responding to the suggestion that people are expecting Fidel to speak for Cuba, not Raul. While I know he writes at least one regular column, and while I understand that this implies that readers wish to read what he has to say, I don't think that anyone phoned him up and said "please issue a statement" or anything like that.

nope

Fidel wrote:

Snert wrote:

The CIA is GOD:  all-knowing, all-seeing, invisible, can be everywhere at once, and of course omnipotent.

[url=http://www.fas.org/irp/budget/index.html]$80 billion for the CIA, $50 billion for black ops[/url] 2009 redacted

Thousands of spooks in every major city around the world and more omnipotent than the Church. That pays for a lot of quiet Americans abroad.

And the STASI would have been envious of the NSA&Telecoms technical abilities for spying on Americans. NSA is an agency supposedly gathering intel on foreign militaries, but their real job is to spy on the lives of millions of Americans and reporting back to shadow government.

So in a city say of 10 million, New York ish, there is 1 cia spook for every thousand people?  or since you said thousands, maybe there are 1 for every 333 or so, what nonsense.

Some of you honestly seem desperate to see poorly armed citizens come up against a well equipped military without any outside interference, viva la resistance, celebrate the coming massacre, is that it?  That is a likely outcome considering how crazy this bastard is, we can only hope the people who follow him aren't as crazy, we all know that the US is interested only because of the strategic issues involved.  Is that a good enough reason to allow a dictator to bomb or drive tanks over his people? Who else would stop him?

Maybe it is, idk.

NDPP

nope wrote:

Some of you honestly seem desperate to see poorly armed citizens come up against a well equipped military without any outside interference, viva la resistance, celebrate the coming massacre, is that it?  That is a likely outcome considering how crazy this bastard is, we can only hope the people who follow him aren't as crazy, we all know that the US is interested only because of the strategic issues involved.  Is that a good enough reason to allow a dictator to bomb or drive tanks over his people? Who else would stop him?

Maybe it is, idk.

NDPP

"Hafiz Ghaya, a spokesman for the protesters' new National Libyan Council, insisted that calls for foreign intervention were entirely unwelcome, adding that the prostesters have taken most of the nation and 'the rest of Libya will be liberated by the people.'. The newly formed pro-protester military says that they haven't even deployed in Gadhafi's last city of Tripoli because the protesters there insist they don't need help.."

Libya Opposition Spurns Calls for Foreign 'Help'

http://news.antiwar.com/2011/02/27/libyan-opposition-spurns-calls-for-fo...

howeird beale

howeird beale wrote:

A_J wrote:

milo204 wrote:

I don't see this at all as a CIA/western inspired revolution at all.  Why on earth would the CIA try and overthrow dictators it already had in their pocket?

Some people like to have things both ways because it serves their particular purposes: "Gaddaffi is a puppet of the CIA . . . and the CIA is interferring in Libya to overthrow him!" . . . of course, implicit in that is the belief that non-Western people are incapable of governing, or rebelling, on their own.

Its not racism. Its not non-Western people. Its people. They need, for instance, a Lenin to cause them to rebel, rather than just to sweep in and hijack an uprising that occured while he was in Germany.

Funny word, "people", or "the people," kind of makes you think of a group of people, as opposed to masses which makes you think of an inchoate, faceless mass, inert until given the life giving spark of the Great Man, like a gollum motivated by his conjuror.

I am in league with Kerensky  and The Kaiser.

howeird beale

oops double see below

trippie

Well who ever thought Chavez was anything more then a dictator using Socialist ideas to further his own personal agenda?

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

lol. Chavez has won more elections than you've had hot dinners. Try again.

Bacchus

He has? Free and open ones? And not ones where if he didnt like the results like oh say ina referendum, he tried again until he got the results he wanted? Then started banning outlets for the opposition so they have no voice?

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

Chavez thumped all the domestic AND Yanqui-sponsored opposition. He overcame a coup d'etat.

Perhaps you losers should pick some right wing targets? Or find another web site where you'd be more comfortable? Storm front maybe?

howeird beale

N.Beltov wrote:

Chavez thumped all the domestic AND Yanqui-sponsored opposition. He overcame a coup d'etat.

Perhaps you losers should pick some right wing targets? Or find another web site where you'd be more comfortable? Storm front maybe?

A neo-nazi site? Really? What kind of a person are you? I've personally chased nazis out of punk shows they were recruiting at, joined flash protests organized by ARA outside their parties. I've been arrested for defending indiginous rights and organized rallies, civil disobedience, teach-ins over and over.

Who the hell are you to call me a nazi? What did YOU ever do? Let me guess: you shreiked at people while holding up your crummy newspaper at someone ELSE'S protest, if that much.

And 'Nazi?' Really? That's your level of discourse? You must use it quite a bit: "oh waitress, I asked for my eggs sunny side up, you NAZI!!!!"

And the mods wont do a thing. Of course if someone were to call you a nasty name, the action would be swift and forthcoming, because we cant pick on our authoritarian comrades, no matter what they try to justify. That would be 'divisive' and 'sectarian.'

Anyway, that's all you got?

Haha. fulminate as you wish.

No one's interested in your noble dictators anymore.

That shit's over.

Frmrsldr

Bacchus wrote:

He has? Free and open ones? And not ones where if he didnt like the results like oh say ina referendum, he tried again until he got the results he wanted? Then started banning outlets for the opposition so they have no voice?

The right wing opposition in Venezuela is supported by the U.S.

Right wing opposition parties attempt to reverse the nationalization of Venezuelan resources and industries and the democratically planned economy of Venezuela. They also try to undermine the government of Hugo Chavez to once again open up Venezuela to U.S. capitalism. Good for the American capitalists but bad for the people, farmers and workers of Venezuela.

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