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Sean in Ottawa

NDPP wrote:

Hong Kong's Opposition Unites With Washington's Hardliners to 'Preserve the US's Own Political and Economic Interests'

https://thegrayzone.com/2019/11/22/hong-kong-opposition-unites-washingto...

"While claiming to fight for 'self-determination', Hong Kong opposition leaders are collaborating with regime-change neocons in Washington to 'preserve the US's own political and economic interests.' A new DC lobbying front has become their base of operations..."

 

WATCH: "Good relations with Russia & China 'in our interest' - Merkel at CDU conference...

https://twitter.com/Ruptly/status/1197952152599244801

I really dislike conspiracy theries that do not have proof attached and I do not care which direction they come from. Doing something that may support what another wants is not the same as collaboration. If anyone has the collaboration evidence (not by musing about common interest but with real evidence of conspiracy in the source rather than support) please post it for review.

HK activists seem to alternate between UK and US flags when begging for help and they may benefit from assistance but that does not mean what they are doing is working with the US towards a US only goal. It is much more likely that the US is interfering in HK becuase they see it as an opportunity and that there is also support for outside due to a wealthy and influential diaspora that has sympathies, particularly since many of this diaspora left HK to get away from this government.

The HK student protesters should not be insinuated to be disengenuous agents of the US by motivation. They may be used by the US in the manner that imperialists use local grievances and have for centuries. They may accept help as many would without regard for the motivation. this protest has used volumes of people to make the point that there is a lot of local support for their grievances. 

I do not think the US without a real local issue get more people out to protests every day for months on end than the US preseident can get to his innaugration. the constant drip drip on this site of statements that these are US plants without acknowledgement of real local issues is insulting to the people that live there. Whichever side you are on, this is something real and in their sociaty and not just engineered as people here want you to believe.

There would be more credibility if the language were not more like statements of the US and foreigners taking advantage and trying to influence. but suggestions of engineering the whole thing are a joke and it is clear by many posts that some want you to think that. 

kropotkin1951

Sean only some HK activists carry imperial symbols. I don't trust them. I do trust the fact they are in the minority. I also know that well trained minorities in all chaotic breakdowns in society often end up in control when the dust settles. Not recognizing the difference between normal citizens protesting in the streets and modern day brown shirts is far more dangerous IMO. There is no black and white in anything and to not recognize the regime change NGO's presence in inciting the rioting would be like ignoring the idea that some of the people in the streets might be CPC agent provocateurs.

Freedom and democracy are illusive terms. The thing I find fascinating is that HK which has a very limited form of democracy under the one country, two systems laws is still more democratic than under British rule.

I will continue to poke holes in the imperial messaging that calls all HK demonstrators freedom fighters when it is clear that some of them are brown shirts.

NDPP

Libya, Ukraine, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, etc...Never forget the dirty hands from abroad.

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Sean only some HK activists carry imperial symbols. I don't trust them. I do trust the fact they are in the minority. I also know that well trained minorities in all chaotic breakdowns in society often end up in control when the dust settles. Not recognizing the difference between normal citizens protesting in the streets and modern day brown shirts is far more dangerous IMO. There is no black and white in anything and to not recognize the regime change NGO's presence in inciting the rioting would be like ignoring the idea that some of the people in the streets might be CPC agent provocateurs.

Freedom and democracy are illusive terms. The thing I find fascinating is that HK which has a very limited form of democracy under the one country, two systems laws is still more democratic than under British rule.

I will continue to poke holes in the imperial messaging that calls all HK demonstrators freedom fighters when it is clear that some of them are brown shirts.

I agree with all you say here. I do not think I have contradicted any of it. I do not agree with the promoting of this as a giant US conspiracy which is what a number of posts have done here. 

I do not think that one form of flawed democracy can be particularly measured against another. Hong Kong was a colony that had greater personal freedoms than it has now amid what was a racist system although fewer political freedoms. I do not agree with those who think people should have to choose between these.

I also believe in the right to self determination something people speak about on this site with respect to Quebec and Catalonia but refuse to extend in sympathy in less politically correct places. Hong Kong has expressed considerable desire for self determination despite never having it from either the British nor the present. I do not think that a comparison between those two addresses this desire or negates it.

The essential problem with the right to self determination is the inevitable interest of others and interference. Thus, I am in the position where I sympathise with the protestors and think support in places like this is not a problem but I do not support governments (Canada, US or others) taking the same position of support of encouragement. I know it sounds like a tightrope and it is. That is what it means to respect this. It is not self determination if the defining power of support comes from outside any more than it is when the inside does not allow it.

I feel for the protestors becuase both sides are pressing them in a battle little to do with them that is overtaking their own positions globally. 

Sean in Ottawa

NDPP wrote:

Libya, Ukraine, Syria, Venezuela, Bolivia, etc...Never forget the dirty hands from abroad.

But also never forget that real people have real grievances before the mud and blood comes from the hands from abroad. I am looking for that balance in these discussions.

NDPP

Results of HKSAR District Council Elections Announced

https://news.cgtn.com/news/2019-11-25/Results-of-HKSAR-district-council-...

"...Hong Kong affairs are purely China's internal affairs. No foreign government, organization or individual has the right to interfere,' said Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson Geng Shuang, reiterating Beijing's unwavering support for Chief Executive Carrie Lam in leading the SAR government. Lam said in a statement that the government respected the results and wished 'the peaceful, safe and orderly situation to continue.'

'There are various analyses and interpretations in the community in relation to the results, and quite a few are of the view that the results reflect people's dissatisfaction with the current situation and the deep-seated problems in society,' she said. The government would 'listen to the opinions of members of the public humbly and sincerely,' Lam said..."

 

"Yes, HK district elections a landslide win for pan-democratic camp. Yes, 57% vs 41% shows pro-establishment camp do not have majority. Yes, the vote numbers show Hong Kong is divided."

https://twitter.com/CarlZha/status/1198831524965048320

kropotkin1951

So will the newly elected officials try to trash the legislature when it opens or are we to presume they have accepted the legitimacy of the government.  Seems to me that at this point the people of HK have about the same democratic rights as the people of Puerto Rico. Local elections to positions of very little real power while a "foreign" nation retains control over who becomes the Governor and thus who sets the agenda.

I am fascinated that it was as close as 57% to 41%. Given the news reports I would have expected to see less support for the government. People want to go about their lives in safety. The high percentage turnout shows that the majority of the people considered the elections to be legitimate. Hopefully it means that the discussion over what is best for the future moves to the democratically elected Chamber and that the thugs creating the chaos lose all credibility and get marginalized. If their cry of  "freedom and democracy' is real then they have to give the new elected officials a chance to exercise it.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..this was reported on democracy now.

Hong Kong: Pro-Democracy Candidates Win Nearly 90% Seats in Local Elections

In Hong Kong, millions of people went to the polls for district elections Sunday, handing pro-democracy candidates a stunning victory. Pro-democracy candidates won nearly 90 percent of the seats—400 of the 452 seats—amid the ongoing, massive pro-democracy protests that have rocked the Chinese-ruled territory. This is one of the winning candidates, Kelvin Lam.

Kelvin Lam: “The voters are not happy with how the government dealt with the protests so far. Particularly in the last five months, and police brutality is actually over the top, I think. And I think that the Hong Kong people should really, really leverage on this result. To ask for more democracy in the future.”

kropotkin1951

epaulo13 wrote:

..this was reported on democracy now.

Hong Kong: Pro-Democracy Candidates Win Nearly 90% Seats in Local Elections

In Hong Kong, millions of people went to the polls for district elections Sunday, handing pro-democracy candidates a stunning victory. Pro-democracy candidates won nearly 90 percent of the seats—400 of the 452 seats—amid the ongoing, massive pro-democracy protests that have rocked the Chinese-ruled territory. This is one of the winning candidates, Kelvin Lam.

Kelvin Lam: “The voters are not happy with how the government dealt with the protests so far. Particularly in the last five months, and police brutality is actually over the top, I think. And I think that the Hong Kong people should really, really leverage on this result. To ask for more democracy in the future.”

It appears that the silly British FPTP system is part of problem. I don't think that 47% of the people should be represented by 10% of the Deputies. Fascinating that this outrageously unfair result, given the actual numbers, is being hailed as a stunning victory not a failure to represent the people's wishes.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..i'm confused. if the pro dem side won 90% of the seats..where does 57 - 41 come into play?

..btw 71.2% vote turnout. 

..comment from the ndpp piece

Is your interpretation of the chart confusing on purpose? It’s 77% pro-democracy, 23% everybody else. "57%" and "41%" are not the results, but how much votes one won and the other lost.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..so hk is not so divided after all. 

NDPP

WATCH: "Hong Kong protesters set fire to a Maxim Caterers restaurant inside a shopping mall. They will not stop violence and vandalism after winning District Council elections, they will just legalize the violence and vandalism by protesters."

https://twitter.com/liamstone_19/status/1199369663966109696

 

WATCH "Do the US and the UK care about Hong Kong's future?"

https://twitter.com/ChinaDaily/status/1199300518683779075

 

"I've said it before, as have others, but the ease with which people believe outrageous lies, exaggerations and blatant fear-mongering about China is extremely worrying and it seems to be getting worse. This is a concerted campaign with the clear intention of laying the foundations for further imperialist aggression against China in the future and people seem absolutely ignorant or unbothered by this terrifying and crucial context..."

https://twitter.com/Louis_Allday/status/1199336084657721348

kropotkin1951

epaulo13 wrote:

..i'm confused. if the pro dem side won 90% of the seats..where does 57 - 41 come into play?

..btw 71.2% vote turnout.

HK has a FPTP system for all its 400 plus deputies. The pro-dem parties and there are many of them won 57% of the popular vote while the pro-Beijing parties, again there are many of them won an aggregate of 41% of the vote. Even the electoral system the British left behind is deeply flawed.  Hopefully they have elected some intelligent people who can make changes that will benefit the people and not the ruling elite.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Hong_Kong#2019_District_Counc...

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..ok got it. txs krop! popular vote is what i was missing.

..from the wiki page

Elected

pro dem - 388 - up 265

pro beij - 62 - down 242

NDPP

Hong Kong Protesters Wave 'Swole Trump' Posters at Thanksgiving Rally

https://twitter.com/CarlZha/status/1200935352585732097

"Never forget."

 

Hong Kong Ensnared in the West's Color Revolution Hotbox (and vid)

https://chinarising.puntopress.com/2019/11/28/hong-kong-ensnared-in-the-...

"Never forget that under its One Country Two Systems, Hong Kong is still a British hellhole for the 99%. The governor, Carrie Lam and all her family are well-to-do UK citizens. Much of the high-level govt administration is staffed by Brits. The Hong Kong court system is full of British judges...not forgetting the territory's 10-family oligarchic owners. As you can imagine, most if not all of them have a visceral hatred of communism, socialism and therefore China as well.

Letting the world watch in horror as jungle capitalist, neoliberal imperial Hong Kong cannibalizes itself, thanks to the continually failing western color revolutions being orchestrated there since 2014, will be a case study for Chinese universities, Think-tanks and relevant government entities to discuss for decades to come."

NDPP

WATCH: "Hong Kong protesters waving USA flags and holding a banner 'President Trump, let's make Hong Kong great again.' HK protesters successfully made HK economy fall into recesssion in just 5 months. Great recession again."

https://twitter.com/liamstone_19/status/1201062723259252741

NDPP

Hong Kong Unmasked

https://youtu.be/0CUgy-Hzyfo

"Hong Kong's violent anti-government movement continues to rage. It has won the world's attention and the support from politicians in the West. But what's really fueling the chaos? 'Hong Kong Unmasked' explains just what sparked the unrest and the social problems that fuel it, and it reveals how forces in Washington have exploited it for their own ends."

NDPP

Why Are Ukrainian Neo-Nazis Joining the Hong Kong Protests?

https://t.co/f1uIi41xDT

https://sptnkne.ws/A9zM

"Prominent Ukrainian neo-Nazi figures have been spotted in the Hong Kong protests just weeks after hosting an 'academy of street protest' in Kiev. Leaders of far-right Ukrainian groups that rose to prominence in the 2014 coup d'etat they helped orchestrate, including the Azov Battalion and Right Sektor, have recently traveled to Hong Kong to participate in the anti-Beijing protests there.

It's uncertain why the groups, sporting the apparel of a far-right hooligan group called 'Honor or Goner', have gone to Hong Kong, but the fact that both the 2014 Ukrainian coup and the present protests in Hong Kong have enjoyed extensive support from the CIA-spawned National Endowment for Democracy (NED), may give a clue..."

NDPP

Joshua Wong: 'As Our Former Prime Minister Winston Churchill Said in 1942...'

https://twitter.com/steelmuslim/status/1201621679203590147

"Churchill directly murdered millions of South Asians as he deened the lives of White British far more important. He reigned over a Hong Kong where Chinese like you were not even 2nd class but 3rd or 4th class subjects..."

The colonized mind of a western stooge.

NDPP

Sanctions Announced (and vid)

https://twitter.com/BenjaminNorton/status/1201907858373300224

"The US is expanding its hybrid warfare against China, so Beijing responded by sanctioning the most important groups in the regime-change machine: NED, HRW, Freedom House, NDI, IRI. These are coup-mongering arms of US imperialist soft-power."

swallow swallow's picture

NDPP wrote:
The colonized mind of a western stooge.

"Can Asians think?"

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

WORKERS’ SOLIDARITY VS GEOPOLITICS

I have found myself at odds recently with some on the left who take what we might call the ‘geopolitical approach’ to assessing popular movements and working class struggles across the world. Those who take this approach seem to keep one list of places where social mobilization can be supported and another where taking to the streets is considered massively inconvenient, if not utterly impermissible. In countries on the first list, protests against austerity measures or price increases are heroic and point the way forward while similar activity in places on the second list must be considered the work of agents of the US State Department.

Now, I’m far from suggesting that reactionaries and devotees of the Washington Consensus never hold protests. We only have to look at recent developments in Venezuela and Bolivia to see that. However, this doesn’t mean that working class struggle can or should be declared off limits when regimes disliked by US led western imperialism face movements that express real social, political and economic grievances. Yet, there are those who feel exactly this way. Recently, I posted an article on my own Facebook page about the uprising in Iran that included a powerful photo of a street battle with police. One person responded with the comment ‘CIA’ and, not to be outdone, another added, ‘Mossad.’ I would suggest that, at very least, a somewhat more serious examination of the driving forces involved is called for before those taking to the streets can be assigned the role of puppets of western intelligence agencies.

Global Uprising

In the present period, a veritable global rebellion is unfolding against the neoliberal order. In country after country, people have decided, after decades of austerity and exploitation, that they can stand no more. Different factors are sparking this social resistance and immediate demands and objectives may vary but the common thread is a sense that life has become intolerable and that mass action is a necessity. In this context, it becomes especially problematic to compartmentalize these uprisings and support or oppose them according to whether or not Washington and its allies approve of the political regimes people are challenging. I dare to suggest that international struggles may still require our solidarity, even if western media sources and governments are saying supportive things about them for their own rotten reasons. I’m going to argue that it is a profound mistake to subordinate the class struggle to a geopolitical chess game....

Sean in Ottawa

Unfortunately there is only one perspective allowed in this thread. If you do not adhere to it you will be drummed out with insults and attacks. It is a sad reality about this site now. Alternate perspectives are not argued with by using facts but are attacked - usually directed at the people while ignoring the content.

It would be great on all sides if it were possible to have dynamic conversations here again where people could actually debate different opinions. 

Epaulo, I think you are exposing a hypocrisy here.

You do not have to support these alternate opinions to see that they make the place more interesting and are worth hearing rather than being drummed out. 

I am appalled at the level of unquestioning protection some governments get on this site from criticism. If we are on the side of people, we can do better.

NDPP

'I Am Dying, Please Help Me'

https://twitter.com/melngai416/status/1199591222202916864

"The Sinophobia, xenophobia and brainwashing starts at an early age. Hong Kong schools ladies and gents...completely explains their way of thinking/teaching and the 'movement' going on right now. Not the HK I used to know anymore. RIP good ol Hong Kong."

 

'Locust World' (and vid)

https://twitter.com/skboz/status/1198077734204788738

"Racism of the HK Movement: 'Locus World'. When you hear explanations of how great freedom and democracy do not forget racism is the fuel of hk protests. Opposed to racism and discrimination, all ppl are human and not insects."

 

Also supported by dog-whistled western liberals,  Ukraine's US-backed regime change operation styled as the 'Revolution of Dignity', similarly portrayed resisters and ethic Russians as 'insects'. Unsurprising then the presence of Ukrainian neo-Nazi led 'protest schools' and repeated showings of the Maidan ultranationalist propaganda film 'Winter on Fire' there. Or the latest round of China bashing here...

Burning Ukraine's Protesters Alive (2014)

https://en.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13930220001674

"The crowd outside mocked them as red-and-black Colorado beetles with the chant of 'Burn, Colorados, burn..."

Shall we all sing along?

https://youtu.be/XfKB0A29aRI

NDPP

Dr Gerald Horne: Africans See China As Counterweight to US and Europe

https://www.blackagendareport.com/dr-gerald-horne-africans-see-china-cou...

"In contrast to US [and copy-cat Canadian] hysteria over China's growing role in world affairs, in Africa itself, it's felt that there needs to be a counterweight to the North Atlantic powers, and they feel that China helps play that role - as does Russia too, said Dr Gerald Horne, prolific author and professor of history and African-American studies at the University of Houston..."

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Hong Kong deports writer and migrant worker Yuli Riswati

Yuli Riswati, an award-winning Indonesian reporter and migrant domestic worker who has played a vital role in documenting Hong Kong’s ongoing political crisis, has been deported by Hong Kong immigration authorities this afternoon under the pretext of an unrenewed work visa, following an inhumane detention of 28 days. Her circumstances are a reminder of the many forms of state violence faced by migrant domestic workers in Hong Kong—and all Hongkongers should take notice.

Yuli—who has lived in Hong Kong for ten years—has paid close attention to the unfolding of this year’s movement from its very start. Realizing that many workers were not well-informed about the protests, owing to a lack of coverage in Bahasa Indonesia, she took it upon herself to interview demonstrators, take pictures of actions, and translate local news into Bahasa Indonesia. Her work has been published in Migran Pos and Suara. As she has explained, her goal was to inform her compatriots about the movement, so they could get around the unintended disturbances caused by protest actions, and would not be misled by biased or false reporting.

The circumstances under which Yuli was deported are highly unusual, and without a doubt politically motivated. After signing a two-year employment contract earlier this year, Yuli renewed her passport but did not renew her visa. According to the Hong Kong Federation of Asian Domestic Workers Unions (FADWU), this common situation is usually resolved when the employer confirms that the worker is still employed in a letter to the Immigration Department. In almost all cases, workers are able to get their visas renewed without hassle so long as the migrant worker is under contract. Instead, Yuli was arrested at her workplace, intimidated by officers to cancel her work visa, and detained without medical attention despite her employer’s legal appeals—in a clear demonstration of the Immigration Department’s unregulated executive overreach....

..related

Domestic workers search for rights amid Hong Kong’s protests

quote:

Dependent on an abusive system

According to a 2018 Hong Kong census, there are 386,075 migrant workers in Hong Kong. 

They live in a precarious state—they are often overworked, underpaid and lack protective labour policies, said Eman Villanueva, a migrant worker from the Philippines and spokesperson for the Asian Migrants Coordinating Body. 

Unlike expatriates from other foreign countries who are eligible to apply for residency after seven years, Southeast Asian migrant workers have no legal route to citizenship. 

“Because of the existing government policies with regards to visas, we are all temporary migrants,” said Villanueva, who has worked in Hong Kong for 28 years.

kropotkin1951

epaulo13 wrote:

Hong Kong deports writer and migrant worker Yuli Riswati

Yuli Riswati, an award-winning Indonesian reporter and migrant domestic worker who has played a vital role in documenting Hong Kong’s ongoing political crisis, has been deported by Hong Kong immigration authorities this afternoon under the pretext of an unrenewed work visa, following an inhumane detention of 28 days. Her circumstances are a reminder of the many forms of state violence faced by migrant domestic workers in Hong Kong—and all Hongkongers should take notice.

Yuli—who has lived in Hong Kong for ten years—has paid close attention to the unfolding of this year’s movement from its very start. Realizing that many workers were not well-informed about the protests, owing to a lack of coverage in Bahasa Indonesia, she took it upon herself to interview demonstrators, take pictures of actions, and translate local news into Bahasa Indonesia. Her work has been published in Migran Pos and Suara. As she has explained, her goal was to inform her compatriots about the movement, so they could get around the unintended disturbances caused by protest actions, and would not be misled by biased or false reporting.

The circumstances under which Yuli was deported are highly unusual, and without a doubt politically motivated. After signing a two-year employment contract earlier this year, Yuli renewed her passport but did not renew her visa. According to the Hong Kong Federation of Asian Domestic Workers Unions (FADWU), this common situation is usually resolved when the employer confirms that the worker is still employed in a letter to the Immigration Department. In almost all cases, workers are able to get their visas renewed without hassle so long as the migrant worker is under contract. Instead, Yuli was arrested at her workplace, intimidated by officers to cancel her work visa, and detained without medical attention despite her employer’s legal appeals—in a clear demonstration of the Immigration Department’s unregulated executive overreach....

..related

Domestic workers search for rights amid Hong Kong’s protests

quote:

Dependent on an abusive system

According to a 2018 Hong Kong census, there are 386,075 migrant workers in Hong Kong. 

They live in a precarious state—they are often overworked, underpaid and lack protective labour policies, said Eman Villanueva, a migrant worker from the Philippines and spokesperson for the Asian Migrants Coordinating Body. 

Unlike expatriates from other foreign countries who are eligible to apply for residency after seven years, Southeast Asian migrant workers have no legal route to citizenship. 

“Because of the existing government policies with regards to visas, we are all temporary migrants,” said Villanueva, who has worked in Hong Kong for 28 years.

Let us not forget that all of these laws are not Chinese laws but rather Hong Kong laws left over and derived from British law. But lets blame the evil central government that never passed a single one of those laws in Hong Kong and who agreed to allow the local legislature to have different laws than the mainland. Those laws are enforced by British trained Hong Kong based lawyers and Judges under a court system very similar to Canada's. Hong Kong laws are not the same as China's.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..neither piece blamed the central gov krop. why make that assumption? here's the connection though from the migrant workers piece.

Against the backdrop of the so-called pro-democracy protest movement that started in June in opposition to a proposed Chinese extradition bill, some migrant workers feel even more vulnerable.

kropotkin1951

epaulo13 wrote:

..neither piece blamed the central gov krop. why make that assumption? here's the connection though from the migrant workers piece.

Against the backdrop of the so-called pro-democracy protest movement that started in June in opposition to a proposed Chinese extradition bill, some migrant workers feel even more vulnerable.

I posted as I did because this is a thread called CHINA not Hong Kong. The piece you quoted talks about the "government" I think the majority of people reading it would assume that the Chinese government is what is being talked about given it is in a thread about China not Hong Kong.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..i don't know what the majority of people reading it think but this is where the hong kong discussion in relation to china has been going on. the pieces i posted are connected to that discussion. 

kropotkin1951

I know I find it hard to keep track of these threads and where discussions on issues are taking place. Maybe it is time you started posting Hong Kong articles in this thread instead. It is good to remember that the two systems approach left the Hong Kong elite in total control of everything and they have produced a neo-liberal hellhole that people should be rebelling against. The Chinese central government does not run Hong Kong, arguably given the state of many of China's other major cities, that is Hong Kong's lose. So lets talk about Hong Kong in its own thread.

https://rabble.ca/babble/international-news-and-politics/hong-kong

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..i've reconsidered and will follow the debate whichever thread that may be in.

NDPP

Hong Kong is Chinese and part of China. The anti-China campaign in Hong Kong is fundamentally about destroying this reality . I'll not collaborate with western attempts to de-couple Hong Kong from China. Best the topic remains here where it belongs.

The Grayzone: Ukrainian Neo-Nazis Flock to Hong Kong Protest Movement

https://thegrayzone.com/2019/12/04/ukrainian-nazis-hong-kong-protests/

"Neo-Nazis from Ukraine have flown to Hong Kong to participate in the anti-Chinese insurgency, which has been widely praised by Western corporate media and portrayed as a peaceful pro-democracy movement. The US government has funded many of the groups leading the pro-Western and anti-Beijing movement and opposition leaders have coordinated closely with conservative political figures in Washington..."

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..i agree hong kong is part of china. 

Sean in Ottawa

I do not see how a second thread implies Hong Kong is not part of China any more than multiple threads for any other country. Big issues often go in seperate threads to keep conversations together and leave the general one not being inundated.

A sincerely doubt Kropotkin was making a political statement when he suggested the conversation went in that thread and it is a bit insulting to suggest otherwise. 

kropotkin1951

epaulo13 wrote:

..i agree hong kong is part of china. 

Of course it is but it has a different system and the Chinese central government is not in charge on any day to day basis. Its like putting a thread about Puerto Rico in a thread entitled USA. Frankly I don't care that much it was just a suggestion.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

epaulo13 wrote:

..i agree hong kong is part of china. 

Of course it is but it has a different system and the Chinese central government is not in charge on any day to day basis. Its like putting a thread about Puerto Rico in a thread entitled USA. Frankly I don't care that much it was just a suggestion.

....even it doesn't have day to day stuff it has sovereignty over hong kong. what that means would make for an interesting discussion. 

..bottom line it's not enough that someone here says china has no responsibility for what happens in hong kong. there were agreements. power is shared. lets unpack that. to use your puerto rico example the us is interfering all the time. 

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..from the #485 post

“The Hong Kong Card”: Against the New Cold War

quote:

This set of demands indexes precisely the explosive fear and resentment built up over decades of dissatisfaction with institutions in Hong Kong society, ones which happen to be holdovers from the colonial era. The PRC has been more than willing to retain the British-trained police force as well as a rigged legislature that stacks voting in favor of its trade-based “functional constituencies” in service of British colonial capital and Chinese state capital. Government invocation of the Emergency Regulations Ordinance (ERO)—essentially martial law—on October 4 crystallizes this continuity between coercive regimes and the coloniality of “rule of law” as an under-interrogated ideological fixture in semi-autonomous Hong Kong. The momentous occasion of colonial relinquishment in 1997 only obfuscates a reality in which sustaining and renewing colonial infrastructures seamlessly institutionalizes and safeguards the collusion between government and business interests. Meanwhile, the militarized police force secured the passing of the colonial baton. Against this triangulation of power, protesters’ demands urgently contest concepts and practices of state violence. They call into question longstanding mechanisms of control as part and parcel of the full realization of democratic potential. 

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Hong Kong’s Mask Ban Is Just a Cover for a Police Crackdown

quote:

The appearance of the Emergency Regulations Ordinance at these critical junctures of Hong Kong’s history demonstrates the true character of the territory’s vaunted rule of law, the so-called “core value” that has made Hong Kong a conduit for so much Western and Chinese capital. There is the fact that the ERO almost certainly violates Hong Kong’s Bill of Rights; the question is whether that even matters. (As of October 4, Hong Kong’s High Court has denied an activist’s request for an interim injunction against the mask ban.) After all, as argued by protester Brian Leung—now in exile after leading a desperate, unauthorized charge into the city’s Legislative Council in July—the “rule of law” is nothing more than a colonial myth: Hong Kong’s legislation has been authored by and for the governing elite, not the people. That both China and Lam repeatedly invoke the concept in justifying increased police repression reveals that Hong Kong’s rule of law has only ever meant legalistic authoritarianism.

NDPP

FAIR: With People in the Streets Worldwide, Media Focus Uniquely on Hong Kong

https://fair.org/home/with-people-in-the-streets-worldwide-media-focus-u...

"...In total there have been 737 stories on the Hong Kong protests, 12 on Ecuador, 28 on Haiti and 36 on Chile. As the graph illustrates, but the Times and CNN had similar ratios of coverage. This enormous disparity cannot be explained by the other protests' size or significance, nor the severity of the repression meted out..."

 

'The Revolution is Not Being Televised'

https://twitter.com/AlanRMacLeod/status/1203439672531312641

"When official enemies can be presented as evil and allies as sympathetic victims, corporate media will be very interested in a story."

NDPP

epaulo13 wrote:

Hong Kong’s Mask Ban Is Just a Cover for a Police Crackdown

 

NDPP wrote:

If the same violent and dangerous destruction of public infrastructure and property, attacks upon the police and assaults and intimidation of the general population were tried in my city of Toronto or almost anywhere else,  a 'Police Crackdown' would have occurred long before now. As for the prohibition on masks:

12 US States and 7 Countries That Have Barred Protesters From Wearing Masks

https://www.businessinsider.com/countries-states-where-protesters-cant-w...

"...In 2013, Canada enacted a law that made it illegal for a protester to wear a mask or conceal their identity during a riot or unlawful gathering. If convicted, a masked protester could spend up to 10 years in prison..."

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

A part of the crowd that turned out today to mark six months of struggle for the movement in Hong Kong.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

As it happened: 'about 800,000' join Hong Kong protest

NDPP

Cynthia Chung: NATO Secretary General Targets 'Rising China': Why Cold War Newspeak Never Went Away

https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2019/12/11/nato-secretary-general...

"...We need to grow up and grow up fast. We cannot afford to be led by childish stories of the boogeyman and be governed by fear so easily any longer. We have become the backwards culture. We have become the barbaric culture that only knows war and is a disbeliever in peace. We who are privileged enough to never have experienced war in our homelands for almost a century, are the ones who condone it as necessary on others. What an ugly belief this is..."

 

The US Government's Distrust of China Has Mutated Into Distrust of Chinese Americans

https://twitter.com/catcontentonly/status/1204619564534968320

"Oh wow, who could have seen this coming?"

MegB

Continued here.

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