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epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Unfortunate that some apparently believe 'Black liberation' will come by supporting US imperialism and its anti-China agenda in Hong Kong....

..i agree that's not the path to take nor is saving hong kong means supporting an authoritarian china.

    ..i'm thinking this struggle needs to evolve as does black liberation. and all other liberation.

NDPP

Dozens Die in India-China Border Clash

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/06/17/inch-j17.html

"...But it is the emeshing of the Sino-India rivalry with the strategic confrontation between China and US imperialism that makes the border dispute so combustible and incendiary. The Trump administration has dramatically ratcheted up tensions with China in recent weeks. In keeping with this aggressive posture, Washington has conspicuously intruded into the Sino-India dispute, goading India into taking a hard line against China...."

NDPP

"The coming war on China is likely to happen by mistake or accident as a result of deliberate provocation by the US and its echoes. Under cover of the pandemic, the Trump regime is sending strategic bombers and spy drones within sight of China itself. Our silence is our peril."

https://twitter.com/johnpilger/status/1273141084500250625

NDPP

China Charges 2 Canadians With Spying in Huawei-Linked Case

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/kovrig-spavor-china-espionage-1.5618674

"Chinese prosecutors announced the charges Friday against Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor..."

kropotkin1951

NDPP wrote:

China Charges 2 Canadians With Spying in Huawei-Linked Case

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/kovrig-spavor-china-espionage-1.5618674

"Chinese prosecutors announced the charges Friday against Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor..."

Merely the rule of law in action. I guess they are accused of doing more than presenting a power point presentation to a bank, that might not have been totally accurate? Espionage is a step up the ladder of criminality and morality compared to lying to avoid non-UN sanctioned sanctions

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

Here is an article which gives a nice explanation of the factors that have led to the current China/India border clashes. I found it very informative about the relationship between China and India generally, with a good bit of historical perspective.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Webinar: Medical Workers’ Unions—Movement Building from US to HK

Medical workers have been on the frontlines of the struggle against authoritarian capitalism since the onset of the pandemic. From Hong Kong to the U.S., medical workers organized to hold their governments accountable for the lack of protective equipment and other resources. This crisis dovetails with the U.S. government defunding and privatizing public resources, and the Chinese government’s persistent attacks on Hongkongers’ working conditions and civil autonomy.

Join us for a discussion on worker organizing and social movement building in the medical field and its parallel connections with the Black liberation movement and Hong Kong protests. This webinar is a transnational exchange that brings together workers from the Hospital Employees Alliance in Hong Kong and Registered Nurses based in San Francisco and Chicago.

Join us on June 27, 2020 (Sat) at 7pm (PST)/9pm (CST)/10pm (EST)/June 28, 2020 (Sun) at 10am (HKT).

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

We can’t let China apologists stop us from supporting Black Lives Matter

The Sunrise Movement, a youth-led climate organization, had plans to host an exchange with a Hong Kong activist called “Learning From Hong Kong.” The idea was to look comparatively at Hong Kong’s past year of resistance to share strategies with activists in the US joining Black Lives Matter protests. 

When Sunrise Movement announced their event on Twitter, a faction of the Western Left flooded the comments with vitriol. One commenter, who had misidentified the guest panelist Johnson Yeung as Joshua Wong, shared pictures of the latter shaking hands with conservative politicians such as Marco Rubio and Josh Hawley. Others were quick to point out that Yeung had received funding from the National Endowment for Democracy (NED). Another commenter even tweeted that the Hong Kong movement is an “insurgency [that] is led by right-wing pro-colonialist advocates who collaborate with racist Republicans.” Their motivation was clear: to discredit the Hong Kong movement and bully Sunrise Movement into cancelling the event.

The criticism of the event comes from a particular faction of the Left who parochially believe that any foreign state expressing any anti-US sentiment is worth supporting because they undermine US imperialism. As Vincent Wong explains, these groups “leverage the lack of trust with Western governments but perverts it to such an extent that it cannot deal with the possibility that there could be terrible repression or injustice in the absence of the US boogeyman.” As a result, they align with authoritarian regimes such as the Chinese Communist Party and the DPRK. Despite claiming to be leftists, this political view has resulted in odd commentary on the Hong Kong movement, such as support for police violence and condemnation of millions of Hongkongers’ demand for democracy.

It is important, however, to recognize that the US flag-waving Trump supporters in Hong Kong are real. Some Hongkongers have also pinned their hopes on lobbying the US. But these groups only make up a small section of the overall movement. Likewise, it would be dishonest to discredit the ongoing Black Lives Matter movement in the US just because the fascist white supremacist Boogaloo Boys have turned up at actions to co-opt anti-police, abolitionist struggles.

To point out NED’s minimal involvement in the Hong Kong movement in order to discredit Sunrise Movement’s event seems to signal something other than an issue with “foreign intervention”—namely the belief that Hong Kong people have no actual political agency (or contradictions, or tensions) in their struggle because they’re one homogenous mass. The idea that millions of people partaking in ongoing protests is impossible unless backed by the CIA supports the same infantilizing racism that considers all Chinese international students to be mindless agents of the CCP. 

Indeed, it should be emphasized that the Hong Kong movement has no “leaders,” meaning that there is no political party or ideological faction issuing commands. This means that the continual, inaccurate assessment of Joshua Wong and others such as Johnson Yeung as “leaders” of the Hong Kong protests is completely disconnected from the most basic realities of the movement. These and other such inaccuracies often fly directly in the face of fact, and exploit reflexive reactions to further build out these China apologists’ own sense of credibility.

While the Hong Kong movement is far from perfect, these accusations against Sunrise Movement’s “Learn from Hong Kong” event, which claim that the entire Hong Kong movement is aligned with Trump and other right-wing Republicans, stem from a fundamentally racist logic that strips Hongkongers of their political agency.

Just as the US movement is ideologically diverse, Hong Kong leftists also occupy a small section of the Hong Kong movement, and have put decades of work into fighting the hyper-capitalist conditions of the city wrought by not only the US and Britain but now the PRC as well. These leftists have long done the dangerous work of supporting mainland activists struggling for political freedoms and better labor conditions. They have also already exchanged ideas with the Black Lives Matter movement such as sharing tips to defuse tear gas and circulating tutorials to build street barricades.

NDPP

"...Although some have tried to equate Hong Kong's 'pro-democracy' movement with Black Lives Matter, they are, in fact, on opposite ends of the political spectrum...What Wong and other Hong Kong 'pro-democracy' leaders, along with 'left-wing' supporters like Lausan omit from their pronouncements of 'solidarity' with Black Lives Matter is that their movement's principal ally is the very US state which is brutally repressing protesters fighting for racial justice..."

HK's 'Pro-Democracy' Movement Allies with Far-Right US Politicians that Seek to Crush Black Lives Matter

https://thegrayzone.com/2020/06/09/hong-kongs-far-right-us-politicians-c...

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

along with 'left-wing' supporters like Lausan omit from their pronouncements of 'solidarity' with Black Lives Matter is that their movement's principal ally is the very US state which is brutally repressing protesters fighting for racial justice..."

..one only has to go to the lausan page to see that the accusation is not compatible with lausan positions.

Lausan

kropotkin1951

All regime change movements around the world have real people who want real change and everywhere they are diverse not monolithic but they also have US NGO's pumping money into one sector of the movement and it is not the left wing in any manner of speaking except maybe double speak. There are many viewpoints in Hong Kong. Hong Kong when these kids in the streets were born was the richest part of China and now it is clear that this status is gone forever. Pro-Beijing sentiment is still a significant minority and if the central Chinese government lost control I don't see anything except a transfer of all control powers to the Hong Kong oligarchy that is largely responsible for making it the region of China with the largest wealth disparity.

I find Canadians generally are very smug about our system and its superiority over any system that does not allow billionaires to be in absolute control from behind the curtain. Most of my fellow citizens just don't understand that the Chinese vote in elections and the overwhelming majority support their system not just the current leadership. Besides they have a sophisticated news propaganda system that highlights the recent regime change triumphs like Libya and Iraq. Then with BLM explaining clearing just how racist and totalitarian the alternative is why would they want to tear down their own system.

In Canada this very day we are stealing indigenous land to build government backed pipelines. I would protest but since I have already been arrested once and paid a $500 fine I would now get the going jail time which I think is up to three weeks. Canada needs regime change to get rid our our racist constitution but lets instead join arms with US flag waving "rebels."

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

I find Canadians generally are very smug about our system and its superiority over any system that does not allow billionaires to be in absolute control from behind the curtain.

‘At the precipice of death, we struggle for breath’: New avenues of resistance

quote:

What the Basic Law does keep “unchanged for fifty years” is not Hong Kong’s spirit of freedom, but the status quo of a capitalist way of life. This includes maintaining a low tax policy, ensuring the free flow of capital, and providing an economic and legal environment that maintains Hong Kong’s stature as an international financial centre, all outlined in the fifth chapter of the mini constitution. It is unabashedly designed to ensure the upper class’s position of power.

Holding a press conference on the National Security Law, Carrie Lam emphasized that this move “does not undermine One Country, Two Systems; does not change the capitalist economic and legal system as practised in Hong Kong, nor the legal protections of foreign investors.” It’s obvious who the Basic Law is meant to safeguard.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

china = state capitalism

NDPP

The Coming War With China (and vid)

https://vimeo.com/277975923

Unfortunately, such war drives always have a contingent of liberal 'progressive' cheerleaders duped into supporting them, 'for human rights, freedom and democracy.'

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

epaulo13 wrote:

along with 'left-wing' supporters like Lausan omit from their pronouncements of 'solidarity' with Black Lives Matter is that their movement's principal ally is the very US state which is brutally repressing protesters fighting for racial justice..."

..one only has to go to the lausan page to see that the accusation is not compatible with lausan positions.

Lausan

..why such an accusation is made in spite of lusan positions reminds me of the actions of stalinistic greek kke. they attacked the indignados and in fact blocked them from storming the greek parliament as the said parliament was passing the austerity bill. why would they do such a thing? it's a fucked position to take.

..trying to enlist pilger into such fucked up positions is pointless. clearly pilger is not a stalinist/sectarian. what is needed is a proper analysis of how the us power can be curbed. choosing to side with china (state capitalism) doesn't cut it. internal decent does. and that internal decent has no place for sectarian politics.  

kropotkin1951

epaulo13 wrote:

‘At the precipice of death, we struggle for breath’: New avenues of resistance

quote:

What the Basic Law does keep “unchanged for fifty years” is not Hong Kong’s spirit of freedom, but the status quo of a capitalist way of life. This includes maintaining a low tax policy, ensuring the free flow of capital, and providing an economic and legal environment that maintains Hong Kong’s stature as an international financial centre, all outlined in the fifth chapter of the mini constitution. It is unabashedly designed to ensure the upper class’s position of power.

Holding a press conference on the National Security Law, Carrie Lam emphasized that this move “does not undermine One Country, Two Systems; does not change the capitalist economic and legal system as practised in Hong Kong, nor the legal protections of foreign investors.” It’s obvious who the Basic Law is meant to safeguard.

Good article. Here are some other thoughts in it that I was trying to convey myself in my ramblings. I want for Vancouver Island what Hong Kong'ers want for themselves, a real democracy not one where the RCMP meet with oil company security teams before using armed force to steal indigenous land. In Canada our constitution discriminates by race and there is no clamor to end the injustice. The people of Hong Kong currently get to vote in the exact same kind of meaningless election as Canadians do. It’s obvious who the constituion is meant to safeguard. Elect left leaning governments in Alberta and BC and they both kowtow to the oil and gas and mining industries including arresting indigenous people for defending their lands. Voting in our system does not change the capitalist economic and legal system nor the legal protections of foreign investors. It’s obvious who the [Basic Law] is meant to safeguard.

The BNA Act [Basic Law] was drafted by British colonists and local elites with the Home Office's [CCP’s] blessing, so even were we to obey it to the letter, we will be no closer to real democracy and self-rule. The precondition of democracy is a set of political, socio-economic, and cultural principles formulated through consultation among all people participating in society.

To rewrite these principles for ourselves, we must pay attention to existing inequities in power and resources among various groups in Canadian [Hong Kong] society, aim to redress or eliminate these injustices, and implement these principles indiscriminately. Without this step, democracy in Canada [Hong Kong] will exist only as a castle in the air.

...

If we pursue independence, we may simply end up replacing Beijing with Washington; and Hong Kong’s corporate masters will simply continue to collude with their new rulers, treat Hong Kong as their own private money-making haven, and dismiss longstanding social issues and political antagonisms.

NDPP

Lusan is a fake left pretence by which liberal imperialists can feel better supporting western destabilization and anti-China regime change operations under the guise of supporting an imaginary 'progressive' activist element instead of the violent and destructive 'Make Hong Kong Great Again,' Star Spangled Banner singing, China-hating reactionaries which rather give the game away.

 

The Folly of Denouncing 'Both Sides' of the US-China Conflict

https://readpassage.com/the-fallacy-of-denouncing-both-sides-of-the-u-s-...

"In order to challenge the New Cold War on China, the left must abandon these equivalencies and disrupt the US war machine. Socialists and anti-imperialists, especially those living in imperial bastions such as the US and Canada have a unique responsibility to disrupt this already escalating aggression. A realistic examination of the facts at hand makes it clear - that US-China tensions aren't a battle for hegemony, but a struggle between American imperialist dominance and Chinese sovereignty and multilateralism. Leftists must understand that American escalation is part of a centuries-long history of Western imperialist efforts to dominate, shape and control China for 'its own benefit..."

"Decolonial left' praxis is projecting 'Fuck CCP' and 'Tankies Fuck Off' on the Chinese consulate in Los Angeles, as the US government relentlessly works to convince Americans that China is the world's boogeyman. Inspired by this remarkable display of courage."

https://twitter.com/ajitxsingh/status/1275501413892677633

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..imho

..people here on babble for the most part understand us aggression and it's obsession to dominate the world. people here on babble for the most part understand that the us has china, among other nations, in their sights. this is not what the lusan issue is about. 

..peoples of hong kong have a legitimate beef with china. how that decent is expressed is complex. although there is, i'm sure, provocateurs in the employment of the west within that decent my understanding is that it does not make up a large segment. so in spite of the geopolitical situation the decent goes on just like it goes on here in spite of our us threat.

..there is nothing fake about lusan. it's doing the work of linking struggles to those in different parts of the world. it is understood that capitalism is the destructive force in the world. this includes state capitalism.  

..now maybe here in canada we can do things like pressure our government to say/do something in the un about the us behaviour towards china. and maybe we can voice those concerns en mass at the us embassies but we should not side with china who is attempting to crush the decent in hong kong while choosing to support/maintain the status quo..capital/corporations. under the pretext that the us is threatening them. 

eta: china is not about to fall. it is not eminent. we should not act like it is.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

It’s time to organize: Lessons learned from dissent in mainland China

To Beijing, Hong Kong has long been feared as the foothold where Western forces can creep into mainland China and “corrupt” its people with dangerous ideas like free speech and association. Indeed, Hong Kong people have historically supported those in the mainland in their struggles against a debilitating flavor of state capitalism, and a regime that willfully ignores the interests of workers, minorities, and disadvantaged groups. This is precisely why Beijing has kept a close eye on the movement in Hong Kong. Beijing wants to crush it because it knows that if the movement spreads to the mainland, it has the propensity to stir up dissent among an already agitated and even more oppressed population.

The recent passage of the national security laws that criminalizes dissent demonstrates Beijing’s determination to bring Hong Kong’s movement to an end. While these laws signal a new era of uncertainty for the Hong Kong movement, looking at how the political discourse in mainland China has transformed over the past decade can offer insights on how the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) operates.

Although popular opinion in mainland China is currently dominated by fanatic nationalism, it hasn’t always been this way. In the beginning of the 2010s, civil society and collective action bloomed. Even with the long sentence of the human rights activist and writer Liu Xiaobo and the repercussions after the 2011 Jasmine movement’s call for democracy, Chinese citizens were generally hopeful about the liberalization that China was undergoing.

Activism thrived throughout this period. In 2010, two thousand workers at a Honda factory in Guangdong striked for 19 days, demanding higher pay and an autonomous labor union. In 2011, well-known writer Han Han published three widely circulated articles titled, “On Revolution,” “On Democracy,” and “On Freedom”, demonstrating that mainland Chinese people wanted more civil liberties. In 2013, the liberal newspaper Southern Weekly titled a New Year article, “China Dream, the Dream of Constitution,” in hopes of encouraging the newly “elected” President Xi to enforce a constitutional rule of law in China. This period of liberalization between 2011-2015 also saw the rise of feminist activism, labor actions and other anti-discrimination movements, many of which received international media attention.

During this period of liberalization, progressives in mainland China believed that they could engage in political activities without directly challenging the CCP by using performative protest tactics. For example, some residents in Guangzhou shaved their heads to mock a wasteful government spending project that aimed to “beautify” the city. One feminist group drew international attention by wearing blood-stained wedding dresses in public to bring awareness to domestic violence. Later in the same year, they also shaved their heads in protest of gender discrimination in China’s college admissions process. 

This all changed when President Xi came to power, marking the end of China’s period of liberalization. After Xi’s inaugural speech in 2013, an article in Southern Weekly, once titled “China Dream, the Dream of Constitution,” was changed to “Chasing Dream” by a high-level official to erase the promise of a constitution. Weibo, the Chinese social media platform that was used by some activists to speak out on public issues, gradually transitioned from a liberal haven into a platform for entertainment and nationalism. Beijing even went on to arrest feminists who protested domestic violence along with labor activists with connections to nonprofits in Hong Kong. The latter were forced to admit that they committed the crime of disturbing social stability in China by receiving funding from Hong Kong to support labor activism in mainland China.

Spontaneous wildcat strikes across China’s factories also suffered after President Xi came to power. In 2012, confident labor unions in Guangdong proposed allowing union representatives to be directly elected by the workers. But after China’s period of liberalization ended, the state clamped down on labor actions and began arresting activists to scare others into obedience. As a result, labor resistance dwindled......

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Defend the Hong Kong Democracy Movement!

quote:

International socialists must stand with the people of Hong Kong’s struggle against Beijing’s state repression. The movement is extremely diverse, containing a number of different ideological elements, including pro-U.S. and left-wing factions. We condemn the Chinese government’s efforts to stoke up nationalist divisions to neutralize Hong Kong’s attempts at building links of solidarity with people in the Mainland and beyond. We also strongly oppose the xenophobia some in the movement exhibit toward Mainland Chinese people.

Hong Kong’s movement is not one of national independence — a position that remains a minority in the movement — though undoubtedly one for self-determination, trying to stake its own voice in the inter-imperial rivalry between the U.S. and China.

This new Cold War dynamic between Washington and Beijing covers up the real division of power in today’s world: between the capitalist state elites and the international working-class. China’s miraculous economic growth in the past decades has depended on super-exploiting its own working-class, and perpetuating the extraction of resources from the global South to provide low-cost commodities to the global North.

Beijing’s accusation of Hong Kong protestors being backed by “foreign interference” is also hypocritical. It falsely generalizes the movement’s association with U.S. regime-change outfits like the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), while pro-Beijing groups have long had their own NED connections. The regime is more than happy to court U.S. surveillance and riot control technology firms — many of the same ones used to assist the murder of Black people and protestors against police brutality in the United States today — to assist its repressive campaigns in Hong Kong and Xinjiang.

U.S. political elites’ response has been ineffectual and self-serving: the Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act offered no substantial support for the movement, while insidiously implicating the movement in support of the U.S.’s inhuman sanctions on Iran and North Korea. On the other hand, the “Protect Hong Kong Act,” which would have prevented some U.S. firms from supplying teargas and other weaponry to the Hong Kong Police Force, has been stalled in the Senate.

In addition, the Trump administration has shown that even the smallest gestural support for dissidents in Hong Kong, the Mainland, and Xinjiang takes a backseat to the interests of economic elites in the volatile U.S.-China trade relationship. With the interdependence of the U.S. and Chinese markets, Hong Kong would only be trapped in a vicious geopolitical bond; finding a third way is the city’s own chance of liberation.

We condemn the U.S. political establishment from intervening in Hong Kong’s affairs for its own imperial designs. But we also recognize that links between the United States and a small minority of protestors do not delegitimate an entire mass movement’s fight against one of the most exploitative governments today. As Lenin writes, “the fact that the struggle for national liberation against one imperialist power may, under certain circumstances, be utilized by another ‘Great’ Power in its equally imperialist interests should have no more weight in inducing Social Democracy to renounce its recognition of the right of nations to self-determination than the numerous case of the bourgeoisie utilizing republican slogans for the purpose of political deception and financial robbery.”

josh

Very well said.  Thanks epaulo for your posts on this subject.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..this international town hall took place 2 wks ago. while originating on zoom it was also live streamed and recorded on facebook. part 2 is at the same link.

Viral Politics: Left Perspectives on the World and China: Part One

NDPP

Hong Kong's 'Pro-Democracy' Movement Allies With Far Right US Politicians That Seek to Crush Black Lives Matter

https://thegrayzone.com/2020/06/09/hong-kongs-far-right-us-politicians-c...

"...The duplicity of Hong Kong's 'pro-democracy' opposition, once again highlights the inconvenient truth of this movement that many in the West have insisted is progressive."

 

Why Canada's Media is Fawning Over War Criminal John Bolton

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/07/04/bolt-j04.html

"...Why then is the Canadian corporate media lavishing so much attention on this Republican Party operative and aggressive proponent of American imperialist violence in every corner of the world? In the most immediate political sense, Bolton's revelations have been seized upon to bolster the Canadian elite's aggressive anti-China campaign which has reached fever-pitch in recent weeks...The enthusiasm within ruling circles for Bolton's proposal that Ottawa and China form an anti-China 'united front' flows from the benefits that have accrued to Canada's capitalist elite from its eight decades long military-strategic partnership with US imperialism..."

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..post #123 provides analysis, a lens, in which we can look at and understand the hong kong struggle. in fact it expands that view to encompasses global capital (ie: 2008 financial crisis) and in my view the crisis of capitalism. this is what is primarily driving the conflict between china and the us. and also the domestic policies in both the us and china.  

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..part 2 in post #123 raises the important issue of the global rise of nationalism in the covid period. and it's relationship to racism. it includes china in that rise.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..just completed the town hall video. a total of 3 hrs which i found enjoyable and illuminating. we live in exciting times. :)

..i'm catching a glimpse..a way forward based on self determination. the connecting of our struggles on a global level. both the hong kong and blm struggles have played important parts in bringing this imperative forward. also providing alternatives to the rise of nationalism and fascism.  

NDPP

See #124

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..you posted that greyzone piece on jun 14 and i responded. i reject the idea that it has any relevance to how the discussion has moved forward since then.

kropotkin1951

So epaulo, the best things you have heard about China comes from a group of US academics. Physician heal thyself is all I have to say to all US and Canadian leftists who are trying to change China when they live inside the belly of the most oppressive imperial regime that the globe has every seen.

I am tired of this bullshit that we have any rights to protest in Canada. It is a fucking lie. We can protest anything as long as it does not impact a business interest. As soon as any business in this country goes to a Judge to show they are affected by anyone's protest or picket line they are granted an injunction and then you get arrested by the RCMP on behalf of the corporation. I had to pay $500 to protest my taxpayer funded pipeline that is building a tank farm within blast range of my son's neighborhood. I would go again but I don't want to spend the minimum three weeks in jail that I would get if I protested again.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..did you actually listen krop or just making a judgement call? what is tiresome is the continual comparisons that lead nowhere. i have never ever argued that canada is better yet you accuse me of that. is this a straw person thing?

..are you defending china's repressive moves? i can't tell because you don't address anything i have posted. do you disagree that the crisis of capitalism is what is driving the us/china conflict? i really wish that you would address the important issues i've raised.

NDPP

Hong Kong Opposition Unites With Washington Hardliners to 'Preserve the US's Own Political and Economic Interests'

https://twitter.com/ajitsingh/status/1278822058445680640

"Friendly reminder that six months ago Nathan Law founded a lobby group in Washington DC with the National Endowment For Democracy. In their own words they aim 'to preserve the US's own political and economic interests in Hong Kong..."

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

As soon as any business in this country goes to a Judge to show they are affected by anyone's protest or picket line they are granted an injunction and then you get arrested by the RCMP on behalf of the corporation. I had to pay $500 to protest my taxpayer funded pipeline that is building a tank farm within blast range of my son's neighborhood. I would go again but I don't want to spend the minimum three weeks in jail that I would get if I protested again.

..and let's not forget that china is playing a part in the tarsands thus the pipeline. also lng.

NDPP

Aligning themselves with Western imperialism and regime change agendas are never  the central problem for some Canadian 'progressives', just finding the right pc pretext to support them.

US Exposed For Funding Last Year's Hong Kong Protests

https://twitter.com/timand2037/status/1279890339600293888

"The little known but powerful US Agency for Global Media has financed protesters in the city and helped them with technical support..."

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

So epaulo, the best things you have heard about China comes from a group of US academics. Physician heal thyself is all I have to say to all US and Canadian leftists who are trying to change China when they live inside the belly of the most oppressive imperial regime that the globe has every seen.

..if you had watched you would know that you are wrong in characterizing what took place. it is only in understanding what is taking place can you begin to understand that connecting movements based on self determination is the beginning of the way out of this capitalist dominated world. over and over again it was said that the role of the left is not to choose between the us & china. that there is also a rising nationalism/facism that we are facing..both inside and outside china and the us. focusing on the the evil empire doesn't cut it.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

epaulo13 wrote:

As soon as any business in this country goes to a Judge to show they are affected by anyone's protest or picket line they are granted an injunction and then you get arrested by the RCMP on behalf of the corporation. I had to pay $500 to protest my taxpayer funded pipeline that is building a tank farm within blast range of my son's neighborhood. I would go again but I don't want to spend the minimum three weeks in jail that I would get if I protested again.

..and let's not forget that china is playing a part in the tarsands thus the pipeline. also lng.

..at a grassroots level we struggle to change the behaviours of our governments. we struggle to change the behaviours of the corporations. so we don't, nor should we, differentiate between shell and petrochina who are involved in the lng project. 

..at a grassroots level, here in canada, we are struggling against china's state capitalism via it's corporate arm..petrochina.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Tensions with China 'do not play out in our project at all': LNG Canada CEO

The head of LNG Canada says Ottawa's trade and diplomatic frictions with Beijing "do not play out" at all in the massive project that will one day ship liquefied natural gas from British Columbia to major Asian economies -- including China.

PetroChina, a state-controlled Chinese energy giant, owns a 15-per-cent stake in the $40-billion project, a Royal Dutch Shell-led joint venture that includes other Asian partners. The project includes an export facility in Kitimat, B.C.

In an interview Tuesday, LNG Canada CEO Andy Calitz told The Canadian Press the deepening feud between Canada and China has never been raised at any of LNG Canada's executive committee meetings.

"The current tensions between China and Canada do not play out in our project at all," Calitz said in Ottawa after meeting with federal cabinet ministers and Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. "PetroChina is a proud participant.".....

NDPP

China-Canada Ties Wane Further As Ottawa Becomes Washington's Puppet Over Hong Kong

https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1193574.shtml

"The US and its allies have been actively meddling in Hong Kong affairs to make trouble for China. These countries have become 'running dogs' of the US and joined the anti-China camp..."

kropotkin1951

epaulo13 wrote:

So epaulo, the best things you have heard about China comes from a group of US academics. Physician heal thyself is all I have to say to all US and Canadian leftists who are trying to change China when they live inside the belly of the most oppressive imperial regime that the globe has every seen.

..if you had watched you would know that you are wrong in characterizing what took place. it is only in understanding what is taking place can you begin to understand that connecting movements based on self determination is the beginning of the way out of this capitalist dominated world. over and over again it was said that the role of the left is not to choose between the us & china. that there is also a rising nationalism/facism that we are facing..both inside and outside china and the us. focusing on the the evil empire doesn't cut it.

I found the moderator to be very off putting primarily because of the false equivalency that is built into the narrative. However since I respect your views I preserved and found a couple of the presenters to be interesting.

The fundamental problem we have is in equivalency. I find it very disturbing to listen to a discussion about spousal abuse that starts from the premise that it takes two to fight and that often times the wife can be rather nasty so we need to attack both of them for their behaviour. That to me describes Canadian and American progressives talking about US China relations. 

To me focusing on anything other than the evil empire is collusion brought on by mass delusion.

 

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

epaulo13 wrote:

So epaulo, the best things you have heard about China comes from a group of US academics. Physician heal thyself is all I have to say to all US and Canadian leftists who are trying to change China when they live inside the belly of the most oppressive imperial regime that the globe has every seen.

..if you had watched you would know that you are wrong in characterizing what took place. it is only in understanding what is taking place can you begin to understand that connecting movements based on self determination is the beginning of the way out of this capitalist dominated world. over and over again it was said that the role of the left is not to choose between the us & china. that there is also a rising nationalism/facism that we are facing..both inside and outside china and the us. focusing on the the evil empire doesn't cut it.

I found the moderator to be very off putting primarily because of the false equivalency that is built into the narrative. However since I respect your views I preserved and found a couple of the presenters to be interesting.

The fundamental problem we have is in equivalency. I find it very disturbing to listen to a discussion about spousal abuse that starts from the premise that it takes two to fight and that often times the wife can be rather nasty so we need to attack both of them for their behaviour. That to me describes Canadian and American progressives talking about US China relations. 

To me focusing on anything other than the evil empire is collusion brought on by mass delusion.

 

..txs krop.

..no one in that town hall talked about equivalency. nor am i. i understand the evil empire is the king of the hill. truth is we on a grassroots level can't do jack shit about that. for that empire to fall it has to come from inside. such as an expanded version of what is going on in the streets today.

..what was said is that we shouldn't choose sides. this is an important distinction from equivalency. at the same time it identifies what is driving the conflict between china and the us. it's not trump or the republicans and democrats. they are only pawns of the puppet masters..capital. and what i refer to as the crisis of capitalism. perpetual growth and acquisition. a snake devouring it's own tail. ever dwindling in numbers at the top. this is important to understanding as it points to the core the problem. which is not the visual aspects..the aggression we see. that is only a symptom or result of the core problem. and it affects china's decisions internally and externally. forcing it to take a harder line. there is a trail of evidence showing this. in other words we need new economic and political systems based on democracy from the bottom up.

..so what can we do instead of focusing on the evil empire. for one thing we need to trust in the chinese folk, the american folk and all other folk to do what needs to be done. and here in canada we do so as well.

..out of the necessity of survival in the struggle, say around lng, we find ourselves talking on state capitalism as well as evil empire plus others. we didn't ask for this, it wasn't our choice but here it is. self-determination and linking to struggles globally is, imo, the only way forward.  

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..one more point that i'd like to make. when people talk about another world being possible they aren't talking about tearing down the old and building anew. as in old style idea of revolution. the powers that be are to powerful, to entrenched. they are to well armed.

..what is meant by another world is possible is building a new world inside the old. where that transformation begins is at the local level. the municipal level. this takes lots of organizing. the current world is unsustainable and will collapse under it's own corrupt weight. what is needed is for us to be prepared for that collapse. with the alternatives already taking shape so the whole ball of shit that just collapsed doesn't begin again.

kropotkin1951

The evil empire is my short form for the cabal of the Western elite who control the global financial and legal systems. They mostly are not politicians and they don't really care who gets elected in any Western "democracy" because they know it is a facade with no power behind the smoke and mirrors. I do know that NATO based oil companies have their private militia forces occupying oil fields in Libya and Syria and possibly other places. I also know that the US is currently stealing the wealth of other nations that is supposed to be held in international trust arrangements. I also know that only the NATO evil empire is committing those kinds actions. There is no equivalency because their is no power equivalency. I will not blame any people anywhere in the world for trying to find a form of government that is not beholding to the evil empire. Liberal democracies are designed for elite rule and every other form of government is attacked by citizens of the evil empire for failing to be perfect. The colonialism of the evil empire has not ended so the only actions that should be highlighted are that of the abusers not the few counties that have resisted their influence.

The answer as always comes down to access to capital. My community is buying a forest from a NY hedge fund and they are liquidating their forest assets on Vancouver Island as fast as they can. US financial interests are turning large swaths of the Island into unsustainable clear cuts as we head into the unknown dynamics of climate change. Every community in Canada has projects that people have approved of and are awaiting funding. If as a people we cannot figure out how to gain control over capital we will never build even at the local level. We have the Bank of Canada and seemingly endless supplies of subsidies to the oil and gas sector (evil empire) but no political will or even a dialogue about obtaining democratic access to capital because all we can talk about is Trump's stupidity and that oppressive Chinese regime and Ras' Putin. I think that the people of China and Cuba have more input into the macro economic decisions than the people of Canada. I think instead of vilifying China we should look to see what parts of their system do work. But first it would require people actually admitting that one person does not control the government and that the majority of the Chinese people think they have a government that takes the best interests of the people as its starting point.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..i will take a little time to digest your latest post krop and formulate a response. in the mean time i'd like to re post something i submitted early. the rise of nationalism around the world was also a subject in part 2 of the town hall meeting.

It’s time to organize: Lessons learned from dissent in mainland China

To Beijing, Hong Kong has long been feared as the foothold where Western forces can creep into mainland China and “corrupt” its people with dangerous ideas like free speech and association. Indeed, Hong Kong people have historically supported those in the mainland in their struggles against a debilitating flavor of state capitalism, and a regime that willfully ignores the interests of workers, minorities, and disadvantaged groups. This is precisely why Beijing has kept a close eye on the movement in Hong Kong. Beijing wants to crush it because it knows that if the movement spreads to the mainland, it has the propensity to stir up dissent among an already agitated and even more oppressed population.The recent passage of the national security laws that criminalizes dissent demonstrates Beijing’s determination to bring Hong Kong’s movement to an end. While these laws signal a new era of uncertainty for the Hong Kong movement, looking at how the political discourse in mainland China has transformed over the past decade can offer insights on how the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) operates.

Although popular opinion in mainland China is currently dominated by fanatic nationalism, it hasn’t always been this way. In the beginning of the 2010s, civil society and collective action bloomed. Even with the long sentence of the human rights activist and writer Liu Xiaobo and the repercussions after the 2011 Jasmine movement’s call for democracy, Chinese citizens were generally hopeful about the liberalization that China was undergoing.

Activism thrived throughout this period. In 2010, two thousand workers at a Honda factory in Guangdong striked for 19 days, demanding higher pay and an autonomous labor union. In 2011, well-known writer Han Han published three widely circulated articles titled, “On Revolution,” “On Democracy,” and “On Freedom”, demonstrating that mainland Chinese people wanted more civil liberties. In 2013, the liberal newspaper Southern Weekly titled a New Year article, “China Dream, the Dream of Constitution,” in hopes of encouraging the newly “elected” President Xi to enforce a constitutional rule of law in China. This period of liberalization between 2011-2015 also saw the rise of feminist activism, labor actions and other anti-discrimination movements, many of which received international media attention.

During this period of liberalization, progressives in mainland China believed that they could engage in political activities without directly challenging the CCP by using performative protest tactics. For example, some residents in Guangzhou shaved their heads to mock a wasteful government spending project that aimed to “beautify” the city. One feminist group drew international attention by wearing blood-stained wedding dresses in public to bring awareness to domestic violence. Later in the same year, they also shaved their heads in protest of gender discrimination in China’s college admissions process. 

This all changed when President Xi came to power, marking the end of China’s period of liberalization. After Xi’s inaugural speech in 2013, an article in Southern Weekly, once titled “China Dream, the Dream of Constitution,” was changed to “Chasing Dream” by a high-level official to erase the promise of a constitution. Weibo, the Chinese social media platform that was used by some activists to speak out on public issues, gradually transitioned from a liberal haven into a platform for entertainment and nationalism. Beijing even went on to arrest feminists who protested domestic violence along with labor activists with connections to nonprofits in Hong Kong. The latter were forced to admit that they committed the crime of disturbing social stability in China by receiving funding from Hong Kong to support labor activism in mainland China.

Spontaneous wildcat strikes across China’s factories also suffered after President Xi came to power. In 2012, confident labor unions in Guangdong proposed allowing union representatives to be directly elected by the workers. But after China’s period of liberalization ended, the state clamped down on labor actions and began arresting activists to scare others into obedience. As a result, labor resistance dwindled.

Even though these social movements were heavily suppressed by President Xi after he came to power, they were not necessarily doomed to fail. Rather, it was the lack of engagement, mobilization and organization of the masses that led to the state’s relative ease in wiping out civil disobedience. Although the performative protest tactics that were commonly used before Xi’s time were effective at getting media attention and only required the participation of a few activists, they were ultimately ineffective at building lasting solidarity across masses of people. 

China’s labor movement was another opportunity for activists to mobilize the masses with workers already agitated because of inhumane working conditions. Labor activists took advantage of this by supporting workers during spontaneous wildcat strikes (often sparked by accidents in factories) and providing them with help, but they didn’t focus on building an organized and resilient base of workers. This meant that the labor movement wasn’t resilient, and fell apart once the Chinese state started arresting dissenting workers in retaliation. The Guangzhou University Town janitors strike of 2013 serves as an example of this. While it initially garnered a lot of support from university students, feminists, and other civil society activists, ensuing efforts to maintain worker power ultimately failed. A few months after the strike ended, participants were individually retaliated against, quashing the organizing effort entirely.

quote:

Although Beijing has imposed its national security laws on Hong Kong, there is hope that Hong Kong’s movement will not end up repressed in the way activism has been in the mainland. Indeed, over the past year, we’ve started to see Hongkongers build more resiliency: a new wave of grassroots organizations and labor unions were established while a variety of communities emerged to meet movement’s constant need for active cooperation and collaboration. While this is certainly a step in the right direction, whether the movement in Hong Kong succeeds after international media coverage diminishes will depend on how resilient these organizations become.

With the national security laws now in effect in Hong Kong, it is time that we realize what Beijing has known for so long: that the fate of Hong Kong and mainland Chinese people are deeply connected. This is why we must not only develop solidarity across this border, but build it to last. Only then will we have a chance of withstanding state oppression in the long run.

kropotkin1951

To Beijing, Hong Kong has long been feared as the foothold where Western forces can creep into mainland China and “corrupt” its people with dangerous ideas like free speech and association.

At least they but their biases right up front. This statement is pure propaganda but thanks for sharing. "Beijing" is the evil actor in this wondrous scenario. The brave Hong Kong'ers, who wish only for rights that are not available in Canada or the US and to get them they are willing to riot, are being oppressed because they will not be given amnesty for smashing infrastructure and attacking the legislature. Imagine the state wants them to stop and is willing to arrest anyone who is criminally violent.

This narrative says nothing of the Hong Kong marches that looked the same as those in Montreal and Toronto that were peaceful on both sides. When Canadians think they have the right to attack property and the police in a coordinated fashion without being subject to criminal charges they have always been wrong. Think Vancouver Stanley Cup riots and all the kids arrested that now have a criminal record. They were merely expressing themselves, right?

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

To Beijing, Hong Kong has long been feared as the foothold where Western forces can creep into mainland China and “corrupt” its people with dangerous ideas like free speech and association.

At least they but their biases right up front. This statement is pure propaganda but thanks for sharing. "Beijing" is the evil actor in this wondrous scenario. The brave Hong Kong'ers, who wish only for rights that are not available in Canada or the US and to get them they are willing to riot, are being oppressed because they will not be given amnesty for smashing infrastructure and attacking the legislature. Imagine the state wants them to stop and is willing to arrest anyone who is criminally violent.

This narrative says nothing of the Hong Kong marches that looked the same as those in Montreal and Toronto that were peaceful on both sides. When Canadians think they have the right to attack property and the police in a coordinated fashion without being subject to criminal charges they have always been wrong. Think Vancouver Stanley Cup riots and all the kids arrested that now have a criminal record. They were merely expressing themselves, right?

..the piece comes from a left activist who is much closer to the situation than you or i. you accuse/speculate that what is being said propaganda without presenting a shred of evidence that it is. in that way you get to dismiss the rest of the piece. you hold a position krop that is not based in reality. i say this because you present zero evidence to the contrary.

..as a lawyer you should know better. you are not taking this discussion seriously. you are just expressing personal opinions. that's ok i'm not trying to dictate terms for you. i'm saying i'm not about to debate opinions that aren't based in reality. it's a dead end. it shuts down debate.

NDPP

"The recent legislation passed by the CPC exposed the US for funding the Hong Kong separatist movement. The similarities between Nicaragua and Hong Kong reveal imperialist tactics of insurgent violence and western bourgeois liberalism. Political weapons serving Empire."

https://twitter.com/threader_app/status/1280617512984621068

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..from oct/2019. meant not as a definitive position but adding to the discussion.

Hong Kong’s Sinkhole

quote:

Somehow, a new generation of the Hong Kong people, mostly born after the colonial era, do not buy into the Chinese dream. Instead, they have been attracted by the western liberal democratic values of liberty and democracy, however dysfunctional parliamentary democracy has proven in many so-called liberal democratic countries. Perhaps this, and the unappealing sight of so many young Hong Kongers seeking help from British and American conservative politicians, is why the global left has been slow and hesitant in response to the crisis on the island. There is already a widespread hatred of China in the West, which is energizing their conservative forces.

But the question remains: is China still a part of the global left? It suffices to look at a few examples. In the WTO, China insists to be treated as a market economy, with the aim of refuting the “anti-dumping” levies the EU and the US charges on Chinese goods. At the same time, the Communist Party is quick to arrest self-declared leftist members of the only Marxist Society in Peking University, because they dared release an investigative report on the exploitation of the logistics workers at the university. Yet, most of the other leftists in China are in full support of the state, blaming all social problems back to the market economy!  

Perhaps here we must be reminded that a mechanical Marxist class analysis cannot fully comprehend the situation in Hong Kong. There is a plethora of social problems in Hong Kong, and economic injustice is a grave issue here. But central to this movement is a simple, perhaps naive, democratic wish. Let us remember Mao's teaching that we need to differentiate primary political antagonism from secondary social conflicts. It is the genuine anxiety of the “two-systems” yielding to the “one-country” that fuels the recent movement. The more Beijing is unwilling to face this root cause, the more the young people believe that their future is doomed, and they have no other choice than fighting back. 

In the last four months the city has been caught in a rapidly expanding sinkhole, where the many formerly effective social institutions have collapsed and the people are engulfed by intense emotions of rage, desperation, and fear. Violence is escalating, and the two camps are fiercely polarized. The resentment of many of the locals to the mainlanders is brought to the fore when the mask of the polite society is ripped off. Instead of the usual finger pointing, maybe we should understand how frustrations and anxiety are produced by a state that does not honor the identity of a city it does not own.

At the same time, many people here are also asking sincere questions and redeveloping alternative networks. There are real participatory democratic activities happening, and people are helping out. As shown in online platforms such as LIHKG, protestors are constantly debating their strategies and are willing to form and follow consensus. We also see the many ways the civil society and neighborhood communities supporting the frontline protestors: giving food and shelters, providing funds for legal defense, churning out high quality propaganda materials, and forming a vast underground of getaway cars driving the protestors away from the streets. Only when the façade of institutional protection collapses would people face each other truthfully as fellows on whom one must rely.

Hong Kong might be falling but if the city falls, the PRC is also doomed; a crisis that would involve the whole world. Judging from how quick transnational corporations are willing to offer apologies in response to the PRC's demands, the global economy is already directly sutured into China’s state capitalism. If the fall of Hong Kong is politically destined, then we will just have each other to embrace. Hopefully we will have the courage and dignity to survive the fall.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..here's a book being offered at verso.

A feminist movement clashing with China’s authoritarian government

On the eve of International Women’s Day in 2015, the Chinese government arrested five feminist activists and jailed them for thirty-seven days. The Feminist Five became a global cause célèbre, with Hillary Clinton speaking out on their behalf and activists inundating social media with #FreetheFive messages. But the Five are only symbols of a much larger feminist movement of civil rights lawyers, labor activists, performance artists, and online warriors prompting an unprecedented awakening among China’s educated, urban women. In Betraying Big Brother, journalist and scholar Leta Hong Fincher argues that the popular, broad-based movement poses the greatest challenge to China’s authoritarian regime today.

Through interviews with the Feminist Five and other leading Chinese activists, Hong Fincher illuminates both the difficulties they face and their “joy of betraying Big Brother,” as one of the Feminist Five wrote of the defiance she felt during her detention. Tracing the rise of a new feminist consciousness now finding expression through the #MeToo movement, and describing how the Communist regime has suppressed the history of its own feminist struggles, Betraying Big Brother is a story of how the movement against patriarchy could reconfigure China and the world.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

China’s Passage of the National Security Law in Hong Kong Will Have Dire Ramifications

quote:

Since the more hardline Xi Jinping took the reins in Beijing in 2012, the PRC changed its approach toward its rule over Hong Kong. This started with the introduction of moral and national education as part of school curriculum reform which met with strong opposition. In 2014, a series of sit-in street protests, often called “the Umbrella Revolution” or “Umbrella Movement”, occurred in opposition to a move by the Standing Committee of the National People’s Congress to change how Hong Kong’s leaders are elected.Over the last year, a relationship marked by mistrust has developed between the general public and the government—particularly the police. This is the result of a considerable number of “unsuspected deaths”, evidence of abuse of power by the police force, and most importantly, a failure of the government to communicate effectively with the general public. Failed attempts to integrate Hong Kong into the national framework of the PRC have only strengthened Beijing’s belief that national integration can only happen under strong, even repressive, government measures. It is this kind of thinking that led to the introduction of the National Security Law.

Hong Kongers were divided in their response to the National Security Law. Pro-China communities, especially those with business ties on the mainland, generally see the law as an important milestone toward restoring the stability and prosperity of Hong Kong. To those that hoped the PRC would keep its promise to permit fifty years of democracy and freedoms, the law raised concerns and fears of political persecution. Many are pessimistic about the economic future of Hong Kong, and there is a widespread feeling of helplessness, and of being placed in a difficult position in the midst of the current US-China trade war.

The implementation of the National Security Law by Beijing has, in effect, pushed through this bill without Hong Kong legislative oversight. It has systematically and unilaterally ended the Joint Declaration and, in doing so, China has essentially broken International Law.

The results of the new rules imposed by Beijing were immediate: By the end of the first day, no fewer than 180 protesters were arrested. China confirmed that, under the stipulations of the new law, many could be extradited to stand trial in China.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..more from #149

quote:

Since the new National Security Law has prematurely removed the territory’s high degree of autonomy and the permission to retain executive, legislative, and independent judicial power, including that of final adjudication, this law has brought an end to this guarantee and therefore marks the end of the “One Country, Two Systems” model, at least in its current agreed-upon format. This will have dire ramifications. The Chinese government has been silent in their tacit consent toward viewing the Joint Declaration as simply a historical document. Yet, China’s territorial claims over the Senkaku/Diaoyu(tai) islands, the islands/reefs and waterways of the South China Sea, Tibet, Xinjiang, Indian borders, and Taiwan could equally be brought into question. The PRC government lauds Hong Kong’s “One Country, Two Systems” model as a successful one, and is seeking to convince the Taiwanese people that it can be used for their own peaceful integration with China. The uncomfortable realities that are now becoming evident make this a very challenging argument to maintain.

The UK, as a signatory to the Joint Declaration without Parliamentary opposition, has put legislation in place that would open its borders to people fleeing Hong Kong who are, or are family members of, British National (Overseas) passport holders—remnants of incomplete measures undertaken in 1997—to live and work in the UK. This portends a possible influx of up to three million people, amongst whom a number are expatriates and other experienced financial talents who can contribute greatly to improving the competitiveness of London as an international financial center. Tokyo and Singapore have mulled the same approach, seeking to attract migration of some of the highly skilled workforce from Hong Kong.

The Chinese response has been to do whatever it takes to undermine this. Yet, to do so would in fact be a case of interference in domestic affairs, as the UK has the right to grant visas to anyone of any nationality. Since the PRC regime tends to be the first to complain about foreign intervention in its own domestic affairs when questions arise on issues relating to its territorial ambitions, China is very much muddying the waters.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..again what i am posting is not for purposes related to a political position..but to gain an understanding of what is going on in hong kong and china today.

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