Coronavirus: what Canadians need to know

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Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

From BuzzFeed: Shoddy Coronavirus Studies Are Going Viral And Stoking Panic

Stephanie M. Lee wrote:

Last Friday morning, after a week in which the coronavirus outbreak had been declared a global public health emergency, a group of scientists from India posted a paper online. A handful of genetic sequences in the new coronavirus matched those found in HIV, they reported, suggesting that this “uncanny similarity” meant the two diseases were linked.

A scientist in India blasted out the provocative finding to his more than 200,000 Twitter followers: “They hint at the possibility that this Chinese virus was designed [‘not fortuitous’]. Scary if true.” A Harvard researcher with tens of thousands of followers called it “very intriguing.” The official-looking, highly technical paper whipped dozens of onlookers into a frenzy, declaring on Twitter and at least one blog that it showed the virus was “man-made” and “not natural” and “prob. not random.”

But that day and throughout the weekend, an army of scientists also tore apart its claims and pointed out there was no proof the matches were anything but a meaningless coincidence.

For the second time in as many weeks, a segment of social media was freaking out over a coronavirus study that hadn’t been reviewed by experts or published in a journal. It was a “preprint,” or a preliminary draft, published on BioRxiv (pronounced “bio-archive”), a free repository that hosts thousands of unvetted papers about the biological sciences.

Sean in Ottawa

iyraste1313 wrote:

Genetic modifications of corona virus leave a fingerprint, analysed in this specific type of corona virus now exploding in scale.

To suggest that this is a lie, is totally irresponsible, if not lunacy.

WHO has just declared that there is no effective remedy for this virus, and they should well know as they were monitoring the Wuhan biolab.

If humanity escapes from this threat, it is essential that this network of biolabs, engineering the genetic material of virus be destroyed!

Again I repeat, to the people of Winnipeg, that this biolab #4 within their limits is a threat to their survival!

A publication of the constant leaks of gentically engineered material must be publicized to demonstrate the reality of this threat!

Lunacy? Yeah sure: let's take the word of conspiracy theorists and non scientists over actual scientists and call the alternate lunacy. This post is absurd.

Let's try this from the start: evidence and expertise=good; wild speculation without evidence or any expertise=bad.

Again you are calling me a lunatic for believing a medical researcher over a guy with a political science degree, publishing his ravings as a doctor without saying where his expertise is, supported only by the fact that he was invovled in writing a law, in a magazine that calls this an admission as if he had some kind of authority....

Are you even listening to yourself?

iyraste1313

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Moderately Strong Confirmation of a Laboratory Origin of 2019-nCoV

On the Origins of the 2019-nCoV Virus, Wuhan, China

James Lyons-Weiler, PhD

On the Oddities and Unusual Characteristics of the 2019-nCoV Virus Genomes and Their Analyses

Author and Research Scientist James Lyons-Weiler, PhD - Extended Biography

Scientist Demands Apology and Retraction from CBC's Marketplace

Invite Your Public Health Officials to the Emergency IPAK HPV Vaccine Science Crisis Webinar

 Scientist Calls Out CBC's "Marketplace" with Grave Allegations of Compromised Journalistic Integrity

 Anonymous Aluminum Apologist Bloggers' Fatal Error Totally Supports Our Conclusions

 

James Lyons-Weiler, PhD – 1/30/2020

RECOMBINATION technology has been in use in molecular virology since the 1980’s. The structure of the 2019-NCoV virus genome provides a very strong clue on the likely origin of the virus.

Unlike other related coronaviruses, the 2019-nCoV virus has a unique sequence about 1,378 bp (nucleotide base pairs) long that is not found in related coronaviruses.

Looking at the phylogenetic tree recently published derived using all the full genome sequence, we see the 2019-nCoV virus does not have clear monophyletic support given the bootstrap value of 75 (Fig 1).

Close-up on Bootstrap value of 75 for available 2019-nCoV from Lu et al., 2020 The Lancet article [Full Text]

There is no doubt that there is a novel sequence in 2019-nCoV; we confirmed this via sequence alignment. Here’s the DOT plot:

The gap in the line shows a lack of sequence homology beween the most similar bat coronavirus and 2019-nCoV. The inserted sequence, which should not be there is here:

A database search by the first team to study and publish the whole genome sequence for the origins of the inserted sequence turned up no hits (Ji et al., 2020). They conducted a codon-bias analysis which led them to speculate that perhaps there had been a recombination event between a coronavirus in snakes with a coronavirus from bats (Ji et al., 2020). [Full Text]

This led to criticism on Wired(3) with quote dismissing the snake origin hypothesis as lacking evidence. There is, however, clear evidence that the novel sequence, which I will refer to henceforth as INS1378, is from a laboratory-induced recombination event. Specifically,

(1) The sequence similarity to other coronavirus sequences is lower to its most similar sequences in any coronavirus than the rest of the genome (IPAK finding)

(2) The high sequence similarity of INS1378 to a SARS spike protein (2; IPAK Confirmed).

(3) We also found significant sequence similarity of INS1378 to a pShuttle-SN vector that was in use in the 1980’s in China to create a more immunogenic coronavirus (IPAK finding, details below, Option 4).

Here, I review four Option on the origins of the 2019-nCoV Coronavirus isolated from human patients from Wuhan, China.

Option 1. Natural coronavirus related to bat coronaviruses, Not a Recombined Virus.

Evidence for: Phylogenetic clustering with Bat coronaviruses.

Evidence against: Low bootstrap support (N=75) and presence of a INS1378.

Status: Falsified hypothesis.

Test: Survey coronviruses in animals in the wild.

Option 2. A recombined virus that naturally picked up a SARS-like spike protein in it N-terminus (3′ end) of the viral genome.

Evidence for: The INS1378 codon bias similar to snakes ($)

Evidence against: Insufficient match in database search to other known CoV spike proteins (Ji et al., 2020)

Status: Speculative hypothesis. Unlikely.

Test: Find an isolate that matches 2019-nCoV in the wild and reproducibly independently isolate the virus from a wild animal (a match will confirm).

Option 3. A recombined virus made in a laboratory for the purpose of creating a bioweapon.

Both China and the US hinted at the other side’s potential liability in playing a role in bringing about a novel coronavirus in the lab specifically for the purpose of being used as a bioweapon. To add to the intrigue, a Chinese Scientist was released from BSL-4 laboratory in Manitoba, Canada for violating protocols, allegedly sending samples of deadly viruses to mainland China.

iyraste1313

 

 

James Lyons-Weiler, PhD – 1/30/2020

RECOMBINATION technology has been in use in molecular virology since the 1980’s. The structure of the 2019-NCoV virus genome provides a very strong clue on the likely origin of the virus.

Unlike other related coronaviruses, the 2019-nCoV virus has a unique sequence about 1,378 bp (nucleotide base pairs) long that is not found in related coronaviruses.

Looking at the phylogenetic tree recently published derived using all the full genome sequence, we see the 2019-nCoV virus does not have clear monophyletic support given the bootstrap value of 75 (Fig 1).

Close-up on Bootstrap value of 75 for available 2019-nCoV from Lu et al., 2020 The Lancet article [Full Text]

There is no doubt that there is a novel sequence in 2019-nCoV; we confirmed this via sequence alignment. Here’s the DOT plot:

The gap in the line shows a lack of sequence homology beween the most similar bat coronavirus and 2019-nCoV. The inserted sequence, which should not be there is here:

A database search by the first team to study and publish the whole genome sequence for the origins of the inserted sequence turned up no hits (Ji et al., 2020). They conducted a codon-bias analysis which led them to speculate that perhaps there had been a recombination event between a coronavirus in snakes with a coronavirus from bats (Ji et al., 2020). [Full Text]

This led to criticism on Wired(3) with quote dismissing the snake origin hypothesis as lacking evidence. There is, however, clear evidence that the novel sequence, which I will refer to henceforth as INS1378, is from a laboratory-induced recombination event. Specifically,

(1) The sequence similarity to other coronavirus sequences is lower to its most similar sequences in any coronavirus than the rest of the genome (IPAK finding)

(2) The high sequence similarity of INS1378 to a SARS spike protein (2; IPAK Confirmed).

(3) We also found significant sequence similarity of INS1378 to a pShuttle-SN vector that was in use in the 1980’s in China to create a more immunogenic coronavirus (IPAK finding, details below, Option 4).

Here, I review four Option on the origins of the 2019-nCoV Coronavirus isolated from human patients from Wuhan, China.

Option 1. Natural coronavirus related to bat coronaviruses, Not a Recombined Virus.

Evidence for: Phylogenetic clustering with Bat coronaviruses.

Evidence against: Low bootstrap support (N=75) and presence of a INS1378.

Status: Falsified hypothesis.

Test: Survey coronviruses in animals in the wild.

Option 2. A recombined virus that naturally picked up a SARS-like spike protein in it N-terminus (3′ end) of the viral genome.

Evidence for: The INS1378 codon bias similar to snakes ($)

Evidence against: Insufficient match in database search to other known CoV spike proteins (Ji et al., 2020)

Status: Speculative hypothesis. Unlikely.

Test: Find an isolate that matches 2019-nCoV in the wild and reproducibly independently isolate the virus from a wild animal (a match will confirm).

Option 3. A recombined virus made in a laboratory for the purpose of creating a bioweapon.

Both China and the US hinted at the other side’s potential liability in playing a role in bringing about a novel coronavirus in the lab specifically for the purpose of being used as a bioweapon. To add to the intrigue, a Chinese Scientist was released from BSL-4 laboratory in Manitoba, Canada for violating protocols, allegedly sending samples of deadly viruses to mainland China.

Sean in Ottawa

You seem to know how to use google: google this person -- check his qualifications. Or take a short cut and read this:

https://falseprophets635728819.wordpress.com/2018/04/11/dear-fda-vaccine-denier-free-speech-opponent-james-lyons-weiler-is-not-qualified/https://falseprophets635728819.wordpress.com/2018/04/11/dear-fda-vaccine-denier-free-speech-opponent-james-lyons-weiler-is-not-qualified/

A few people who want fame and fortue like money -- they sell snake oil

This is a run of the mill anti-vax idiot.

bekayne

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

You seem to know how to use google: google this person -- check his qualifications. Or take a short cut and read this:

https://falseprophets635728819.wordpress.com/2018/04/11/dear-fda-vaccine-denier-free-speech-opponent-james-lyons-weiler-is-not-qualified/https://falseprophets635728819.wordpress.com/2018/04/11/dear-fda-vaccine-denier-free-speech-opponent-james-lyons-weiler-is-not-qualified/

A few people who want fame and fortue like money -- they sell snake oil

This is a run of the mill anti-vax idiot.

https://respectfulinsolence.com/2020/01/31/2019-ncov-wuhan-outbreakdue-to-failed-coronavirus-vaccine/

Sean in Ottawa

bekayne wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

You seem to know how to use google: google this person -- check his qualifications. Or take a short cut and read this:

https://falseprophets635728819.wordpress.com/2018/04/11/dear-fda-vaccine-denier-free-speech-opponent-james-lyons-weiler-is-not-qualified/https://falseprophets635728819.wordpress.com/2018/04/11/dear-fda-vaccine-denier-free-speech-opponent-james-lyons-weiler-is-not-qualified/

A few people who want fame and fortue like money -- they sell snake oil

This is a run of the mill anti-vax idiot.

https://respectfulinsolence.com/2020/01/31/2019-ncov-wuhan-outbreakdue-to-failed-coronavirus-vaccine/

And the author of this article is an MD and with a PhD in medical science. 

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/editorial-staff/david-h-gorski-md-phd-managing-editor/

ETA: Actually I should clarify that I should not have called him an idiot. He could be aware that he is unqualified and just greedy trying to profit like many of the anti-vaxxers -- by selling misinformation for fame and fortune. 

In other news Sociopaths represent 3-5% of the population says this source. No, I have no sympathy or respect for the people who market or spread misinformation and lies about medical science. Their collective actions risk the lives and health of millions. Most of these people have enough intelligence to understand what they are doing. Medical science is a peer-reviewed process where alternate views get published and then tested. People outside this process without the relevant education and expertise know this.

https://eyesofasociopath.weebly.com/statistics.html

NDPP

Champagne Advises Canadians to Leave China By Commercial Means As Repatriation Effort Continues

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/coronavirus-airlift-china-canada-repatr...

"Government says a 'few dozen Canadians' will be brought home on US aircraft in addition to charter flight. GAC's website was updated today, and now states that for safety and security reasons, 'consider leaving China if your presence isn't essential.' Trudeu said the risk to Canadians remains low..."

Sean in Ottawa

NDPP wrote:

Champagne Advises Canadians to Leave China By Commercial Means As Repatriation Effort Continues

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/coronavirus-airlift-china-canada-repatr...

"Government says a 'few dozen Canadians' will be brought home on US aircraft in addition to charter flight. GAC's website was updated today, and now states that for safety and security reasons, 'consider leaving China if your presence isn't essential.' Trudeu said the risk to Canadians remains low..."

The Chinese government is active in discussions with embassies of foreign nationals. In many cases these instructions would be informed based on information the Chinese are sharing about the crisis.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Newborn Baby Becomes Youngest Person Diagnosed with Coronavirus as Death Toll in China Hits 560

The death toll from the coronavirus has topped 560 in China, with more than 28,000 cases diagnosed worldwide. The rapid spread of the virus comes as the unprecedented lockdown of Chinese cities — home to 50 million people — enters its third week. In China, a newborn baby became the youngest person with the virus this week — diagnosed only one day after birth. Meanwhile, a cruise ship with thousands of people on board, including 428 Americans, has been quarantined off the shore of Japan. Twenty people on the cruise have tested positive for coronavirus on the ship so far. The cruise ship is now anchored off Yokohama Port, and none of the passengers are allowed to leave their rooms.

Sean in Ottawa

As I have said before- these rates are meaningless. We do not know how many people now infected will die and we do not know how many mild cases there are.

We do know that a large number of people have it but that is all.

It is possible that this is actually something that is here to stay and that will have a low death rate like the flu and we don't know this yet becuase we cannot see the full number of mild cases.

This is the reality -- we may not know for some time either.

Sean in Ottawa

The WTO is saying publicly now what I have been fearful of for a while and was saying here. If this virus takes hold in a developing country many people will lose their lives and it will not be contained.

The threat of the virus is somewhat like the environmental threats: we are all at risk but the highest cost is to the most vulnerable people -- the poorest. If the wealthy parts of the world does not assist with the wealth that it has scooped up from the rest of the world progress is not possible.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/coronavirus-china-quarantine-endemic-1.5456641

"Our greatest concern is about the potential for spread in countries with weaker health systems and who lack the capacity to detect or diagnose the virus. We are only as strong as the weakest link."

NDPP

#H2019nCoV (and vid)

https://twitter.com/HelenBranswell/status/1226201414914977793

"The highest rate of death from novel coronavirus infection is among older people 80 & older: WHO briefing Saturday..."

 

Ghost City (and vid)

https://twitter.com/niluganji/status/1226621436204376066

"Follow our commute through empty Beijing..."

 

Coronavirus is the Biggest Market Threat Right Now

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/09/coronavirus-is-the-biggest-threat-to-ral...

"The longer that this virus threat continues to weigh on the global economy, the more it poses a risk for at least a correction in the stock market..."

 

'Not Just Diseases but Ideas Can Plague Us' (audio)

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thesundayedition/not-just-diseases-but-ideas-ca...

 

NDPP

An Epidemic Recedes

https://t.co/p4qS7WEaqL?amp=1

"Number of new coronavirus cases declines..."

Sean in Ottawa

NDPP wrote:

An Epidemic Recedes

https://t.co/p4qS7WEaqL?amp=1

"Number of new coronavirus cases declines..."

this is out of date: large number of cases today

iyraste1313

yes the numbers are out of date, I agree!

The best analysis I´ve so far seen, puts the fatalities at something like 120,000 with 1.5 million affected, with 400 million in quarantine.....

there can be no doubt now that this was an engineered virus, by whom and why?

41% of the first casualties were from hospitals, meaning the virus was possibly released, systematically! Not necessarily leaked from the Wuhan extreme biohazard lab 4....

Sean in Ottawa

iyraste1313 wrote:

yes the numbers are out of date, I agree!

The best analysis I´ve so far seen, puts the fatalities at something like 120,000 with 1.5 million affected, with 400 million in quarantine.....

there can be no doubt now that this was an engineered virus, by whom and why?

41% of the first casualties were from hospitals, meaning the virus was possibly released, systematically! Not necessarily leaked from the Wuhan extreme biohazard lab 4....

Again you are making no sense:

There is no analysis placing fatalities at something like 120,000 -- there are speculations that this could happen if the virus is not controlled. It is an open question as to whether this level of infection will happen and what the death rate would be. Nobody of any credibility is pretending to know.

And please stop with the conspiracy garbage of not only speculating but declaring that there can be no doubt.

It is not news that sick people go to hospital and that sick poeple are more vulnerable to illness and therefore catch infections. also when people are sick enough for their life to be in danger they go to hospital. To make up a BS conspiracy story about poeple dying in hospital is lunacy. This is just basic. 

iyraste1313

The study, published in the medical journal JAMA on Friday, involved analyzing data on 138 patients hospitalized with novel coronavirus-infected pneumonia in Wuhan, China. The data showed that hospital-related transmissions of the virus were suspected in about 41% of the patients.

Specifically, 40 health care workers in the study and 17 patients who were already hospitalized for other reasons were presumed to have been infected with the novel coronavirus in the hospital, the data showed, also revealing that 26% of all the patients were admitted to an intensive care unit and 4.3% died.

Sean in Ottawa

iyraste1313 wrote:

The study, published in the medical journal JAMA on Friday, involved analyzing data on 138 patients hospitalized with novel coronavirus-infected pneumonia in Wuhan, China. The data showed that hospital-related transmissions of the virus were suspected in about 41% of the patients.

Specifically, 40 health care workers in the study and 17 patients who were already hospitalized for other reasons were presumed to have been infected with the novel coronavirus in the hospital, the data showed, also revealing that 26% of all the patients were admitted to an intensive care unit and 4.3% died.

Sure but your logical leap from there is without any foundation.

People catch infections in hospitals - no matter how careful they are. They do everywhere in the world. It is something that all hospitals struggle with. Sick people gather to get medical attention.

Guess what this means? That already sick people (compromised with other things)  catch communicable illness from sick people in places where sick people are. Is that a shock?

It is also true that quarantines reduces contact with those outside and that reduces infection AND they increase infections within the quarantine zone by gathering people together who may be ill. Again no surpirse. No conspiracy. Just plain logic.

It sucks being put in quarantine because you might be sick when that increases the chance you will get sick. Same truth about going to hospital.

This is exactly why doctors in Canada have been screaming at employers to stop demanding sick notes becuase it sends people with infections to clinics where they spread the infection, when if they stayed home fewer people would get sick.

Is this difficult for you to understand?

Sean in Ottawa

Today was the worst day in infection rates yet for the virus.

Currently Infected 52,979

Mild Condition 44,736 (84%)

Serious or Critical 8,243 (16%)

Cases with Outcome 7,331

Recovered/Discharged 5,963 (81%)

Deaths 1,368 (19%)

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-cases/

I said this would happen a couple days ago becuase there is increased, forced testing.

This is important to recognize that there is a difference between new cases and new diagnosis where the population has not been tested. What we have is proof that the disease is more widespread than confirmed cases had previously indicated.

Going forward the same issues I spoke of previously remain:

China now going back to work -- more cases are likely to come from that despite any precaution

China will peak first as it runs through the population. Some experts expect this to happen within a month. Although potentially with millions of cases.

Then either the virus will decline or it will catch firm hold elsewhere. There is little reason for hope that it will be containable but it is hard to predict. 

The virus may not survive as well in summer and so while it may be increasing outside China, it could stall due to a change in weather. We do not really know this. This is some cause for hope.

As well we also do not know the true infection rate if it is much higher with mild cases it is possible that it will run through the population without nearly as many cases as you might think looking only at the confirmed cases which are more likely to be severe enough to attract attention.

Another issue is related to the speed of the spread. We do not knwo for sure when it started. Some say back as early as October. Evidence has shown that the Chinese government supressed and kept it a secret for at least a month but it could have been longer. Naturally this approach did not work and perhaps there have been lessons learned -- this is what Chinese authorities are claiming.

There are also reports that the application that the Chinese use to track people is now being used to give information on risk. Now of course this is a controversial measure. However, this oculd become a useful tool in controlling spread. It is noteworthy that no other country has this tool so if this gets widespread transmission the tools available will not be the same. That said, if the number of critical cases are smaller (once you count cases without symptoms, some of these measures might not be useful).

iyraste1313

Military Times article

An executive order issued by the Joint Staff and approved by Defense Secretary Mark Esper this month directed Northern Command and geographic combatant commanders to initiate pandemic plans, which include ordering commanders to prepare for widespread outbreaks and confining service members with a history of travel to China.

The Navy and Marine Corps messages, issued Tuesday and Wednesday, respectively, reference an executive order directing U.S. Northern Command to implement the Department of Defense Global Campaign plan for Pandemic Influenza and Infectious Diseases 3551-13.........

...This suggests one of the 2 key dangers facing people in North America...first the preparations for total control of the population for even minor numbers of cases and deaths (19%!!)....of course the far greater danger lies with this being the catalyst to break the financial system. The Chinese system as I had documented already was facing serious strain what with bank failures, now with a considerable percentage of the economic system in paralysis? The bank failures, business failures will be catastrophic. Which of course will lead to contagion globally...so much for the merits of globalization....

as for my conclusions re the level of deaths and cases previous, it is based on whistleblower accounts of numbers of bodies being cremated...this is not fantasy, but based on calculations from statements on the ground.... 

iyraste1313

further confirmation of the bioengineered nature of the virus...

Which brings us to perhaps the most notable finding. 

A genetic analysis of the spike-protein genes – the exact region that was bio-engineered by the UNC lab in 2015, where Zhengli Shi and Xing-Yi Ge previously isolated a batty coronavirus that targets the ACE2 receptor just like this 2019-nCoV strain of the coronavirus does – indicates an artificial and unnatural origins of the Wuhan Strain’s spike-protein genes when they are compared to the genomes of wild relatives.

Instead of appearing similar and homologous to its wild relatives, an important section of the Wuhan Strain’s spike-protein region shares the most genetic similarity with a bio-engineered commercially available gene sequence that’s designed to help with immunotherapy research. It is mathematically possible for this to happen in nature – but only in a ten-thousand bats chained to ten-thousand Petri dishes and given until infinity sense.

And soas the report goes on.......

The leak of the engineered virus, from the Wuhan lab 4, is of course one of the 2 possible explanations...and if true, again to Winnipegers...wake up!!

Thje other theory as outlined previous, is that the virus was released into the hospital system...by whom?

In this case our target of enquiry must be to whom? Why for example was that Harvard biochemist in biological warfare (Lieber) arrested? what does he have to say?

Please no more histrionics, out there! The natural cause of the viral strain has been debunked! let´s find out the cause!

voice of the damned

iyraste1313 wrote:

Military Times article

An executive order issued by the Joint Staff and approved by Defense Secretary Mark Esper this month directed Northern Command and geographic combatant commanders to initiate pandemic plans, which include ordering commanders to prepare for widespread outbreaks and confining service members with a history of travel to China.

The Navy and Marine Corps messages, issued Tuesday and Wednesday, respectively, reference an executive order directing U.S. Northern Command to implement the Department of Defense Global Campaign plan for Pandemic Influenza and Infectious Diseases 3551-13.........

...This suggests one of the 2 key dangers facing people in North America...first the preparations for total control of the population for even minor numbers of cases and deaths (19%!!)....of course the far greater danger lies with this being the catalyst to break the financial system. The Chinese system as I had documented already was facing serious strain what with bank failures, now with a considerable percentage of the economic system in paralysis? The bank failures, business failures will be catastrophic. Which of course will lead to contagion globally...so much for the merits of globalization....

as for my conclusions re the level of deaths and cases previous, it is based on whistleblower accounts of numbers of bodies being cremated...this is not fantasy, but based on calculations from statements on the ground.... 

I'm not exactly sure what Military Times is, seems maybe to be a reportage/opinion blog on military affairs. But I'm pretty sure that your last two paragraphs there aren't from the Military Times article, contrary to the impression your formating would give.

Sean in Ottawa

iyraste1313 wrote:

further confirmation of the bioengineered nature of the virus...

Which brings us to perhaps the most notable finding. 

A genetic analysis of the spike-protein genes – the exact region that was bio-engineered by the UNC lab in 2015, where Zhengli Shi and Xing-Yi Ge previously isolated a batty coronavirus that targets the ACE2 receptor just like this 2019-nCoV strain of the coronavirus does – indicates an artificial and unnatural origins of the Wuhan Strain’s spike-protein genes when they are compared to the genomes of wild relatives.

Instead of appearing similar and homologous to its wild relatives, an important section of the Wuhan Strain’s spike-protein region shares the most genetic similarity with a bio-engineered commercially available gene sequence that’s designed to help with immunotherapy research. It is mathematically possible for this to happen in nature – but only in a ten-thousand bats chained to ten-thousand Petri dishes and given until infinity sense.

And soas the report goes on.......

The leak of the engineered virus, from the Wuhan lab 4, is of course one of the 2 possible explanations...and if true, again to Winnipegers...wake up!!

Thje other theory as outlined previous, is that the virus was released into the hospital system...by whom?

In this case our target of enquiry must be to whom? Why for example was that Harvard biochemist in biological warfare (Lieber) arrested? what does he have to say?

Please no more histrionics, out there! The natural cause of the viral strain has been debunked! let´s find out the cause!

More quackery from anti-vax quack -- Why are you posting this utter garbage? Try this: type in his name and see if google does not helpfully add the word quack?

Details here

James Weiler, is an anti-vax PHD with zero qualifications in immunology, neurology, infectious diseases, autism and virology.

Here’s what science blogger Orac wrote about him in a Februrary 2018 blog:

“Lyons-Weiler describes himself as having been an “evolutionary biologist.” That made me curious. So I wandered over to his LinkedIn page. There, I learned that he did apparently earn a PhD in Ecology, Evolution & Conservation Biology from the University of Nevada, Reno in 1997. He then did a postdoctoral fellowship in Computational Molecular Biology at Penn State University from 1997-2000. So far, so normal.

Then he did have a faculty position at the University of Massachusetts Lowell from 1999 to 2002. Oddly enough, this seems to overlap somewhat with his time as a fellow at Penn State. Be that as it may, he didn’t last long there, only three years. This suggests to me that something odd happened. Usually, new faculty in the biomedical sciences is given around five years to acquire funding, become independent, and earn tenure. On the other hand, he says that he established “a Center for Bioinformatics, taught undergraduate & graduate courses (biology, genetics, bioinformatics)” and helped “researchers w/microarray data and developed web applications for high-throughput data analysis.” This does not sound like a tenure-track position, as there is no mention of independent research or running a lab. Lyons-Weiler then moved on to the University of Pittsburgh, where he remained for twelve years and in 2007 became director of the Bioinformatics Analysis Core there until the core closed in 2014, according to him due to state budget cuts.

Lyons-Weiler touts his career as a scientist to make it seem as though his antivaccine claims are more valid, even though they were not. ”

As Skeptical Raptor points out in their recent blog on Weiler:

…nothing he has done is even peripherally related to vaccines.”

The blog goes on to discuss his qualifications as a “scientist”:

Using the term “scientist” to describe someone who hasn’t done real science, especially with respect to vaccines, seems strange. I want to see the first authorship on a body of papers where clinical trials, epidemiological studies, or basic scientific research are described and analyzed that focuses on vaccines. The anti-vaccine world might want to tout James Lyons-Weiler as a scientist, but he doesn’t do basic scientific research, so that is a title that is probably undeserved.

The vaccineswork blog is equally intrigued about Weiler’s mysterious past and has a theory:

“I have a pet theory that something happened at his last job and he had to leave in disgrace. Finding this niche, in the antivax world, is his last ditch attempt at making a living. “

To summarize James Lyons-Weiler has no qualifications in any field related to vaccines yet uses his PhD to make it seem like he does.

Of course, the “PHD” is right there on his Facebook “fan” page (ignore the old picture he uses from when Bush was in the White House):

https://falseprophets635728819.wordpress.com/2018/04/11/dear-fda-vaccine-denier-free-speech-opponent-james-lyons-weiler-is-not-qualified/

BTW - why is Rabble a clearing house for conspiracy theories from non-experts and discredited baloney?

Some people here would like this place to have an ounce of credibility and value as a place to discuss alternate opinions from a left viewpoint. Sadly this goal is being buried by alternate facts from the land of make believe.

Sean in Ottawa

Here is an interesting article looking at less conspiratorial reasons for some of the inaccuracies in reporting about the Coronavirus in China: they are in crisis and overwhelmed. It also explains the reason the WHO is being more respectful of China: diplomacy and being constructive. What is wrong with that?

It is true that there are important questions about the start of the crisis admitted by the government and some of these are important becuase they help explain the course of the disease. However, rational constructive criticism of China is being drowned out by anti-Chinese attacks. The following article reminds people to recognize that China is suffering and asks that these criticisms be held back during a difficult time. 

https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3050477/be-fair-china-difficult-time

For many people, the default mode of dealing with China is to criticise and condemn. Often, the country and its leadership deserve it. Sometimes, though, to quote the immortal words of Clint Eastwood in Unforgiven, “deserve’s got nothin’ to do with it”.

When a country is hit by a national disaster such as a pandemic, the decent thing to do is to help first, criticise later. For all its faults, China and its people are suffering

Even in areas where Beijing may be doing something right, those who recognise and praise it are accused of being too close to the Chinese. Their integrity is questioned because they are not automatically critical or condemnatory.

That’s how some American and British politicians, pundits and human rights groups have rounded on Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, the director general of the World Health Organisation, for praising China and the leadership of President Xi Jinping not once but twice. It’s hard to think there isn’t a hint of racism, because he is Ethiopian.

He is not under Chinese influence or in their pocket; he is doing his job. A priority for the WHO is to convince Beijing to let in an advance medical team to work in the Chinese hot zones. You think criticising Xi and pointing out all his government’s faults will help the organisation’s case?

Tedros wants China to do the right thing, not to clam up. That requires diplomatic skills, not just medical expertise. The Beijing leadership does want to cooperate, but for foreign critics to put its every move under the microscope is hardly helpful. One reason they have so much material on which to base their criticism is because China has been more transparent than ever.

Take the idea of China under-reporting coronavirus cases. It’s almost certain that there are far more cases than officially recorded. But is it an official cover-up? Hospitals in hard-hit areas are overwhelmed, and only treating the most serious cases.

They don’t have the latest diagnostics so test results come in slowly, and are not always accurate. WHO experts say sometimes you need to perform two tests to make sure, and that would take even longer. That’s if you are lucky enough to be tested. Many patients are still waiting and may never be tested before recovering or dying.

By all means, blast away at China. But can you at least wait until we Chinese stop dying?

Sean in Ottawa

BTW: with the head of the WHO being an African, he knows that the virus in Africa in numbers would be devastating. His efforts to engage with China in a constructive rather than antagonistic way is to be applauded. The WHO is on the ground in China because of his diplomacy.

Just imagine what kind of invitation a world body would get from Canada if it shat all over the government and system here before wanting to come.

another point that the article I mentionned in my last post makes: there will be time when the crisis is over to investigate, criticize and learn. individuals can do that now but we need world leaders to be constructive and focus on what we need to do ahead of criticisms. The criticisms that should go forward now should be restricted (on the part of leaders at least) to those things that can be improved now to improve the situation or to inform people outside China about what they are dealing with. The other gratuitous attacks are an obstacle.

By this I am not questinning anyone here but I do question people like the US administration saying it does not trust the Chinese as they said today. This means that any knowledge the US has cannot be used at the epicentre in China. The US took themselves out of the conversation. It is good that the WHO is refusing to do so despite the US punishment of withdrawing half the US contribution just this week.

The world has to find ways of moving on without the United States being at all helpful in any way. In the past the US did many terrible things but they also did do some positive things in terms of financial assitance. That era seems to be over and the US contribution to the world appears uniformly negative now. Other countries have to make new plans as much as possible.

kropotkin1951

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Today was the worst day in infection rates yet for the virus.

Currently Infected 52,979

Mild Condition 44,736 (84%)

Serious or Critical 8,243 (16%)

Cases with Outcome 7,331

Recovered/Discharged 5,963 (81%)

Deaths 1,368 (19%)

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-cases/

I wonder how many of them would have died of something else in the near future. The average daily deaths in China with a little under 19% of the worlds population, if I have done the math right, is not far under 30,000. If this is primarily killing people with already compromised immune systems then the number of fatalities so far are not monumental, in the grand scale of what kills people everyday.

According to the World Mortality 2017 report published by the United Nations, the number of deaths in 2015 was 56.567 million. This means that an average of 155,224 human deaths occur each day.

 

NDPP

New Cases of Wuhan Virus Are Declining

https://www.anti-empire.com/new-cases-of-wuhan-virus-are-declining/

"Confusion brought about by statistical change not withstanding..."

iyraste1313

 from a scientist at the prestigious South China University of Technology in Guangzhou China. A pre-print published by Botao Xiao and Lei Xiao, titled "The possible origins of 2019-nCoV coronavirus" whose abstract is the following...

The 2019-nCoV has caused an epidemic of 28,060 laboratory-confirmed infections in human including 564 deaths in China by February 6, 2020. Two descriptions of the virus published on Nature this week indicated that the genome sequences from patients were almost identical to the Bat CoV ZC45 coronavirus. It was critical to study where the pathogen came from and how it passed onto human. An article published on The Lancet reported that 27 of 41 infected patients were found to have contact with the Huanan Seafood Market in Wuhan. We noted two laboratories conducting research on bat coronavirus in Wuhan, one of which was only 280 meters from the seafood market. We briefly examined the histories of the laboratories and proposed that the coronavirus probably originated from a laboratory. Our proposal provided an alternative origin of the coronavirus in addition to natural recombination and intermediate host.

In summary, somebody was entangled with the evolution of 2019-nCoV coronavirus. In addition to origins of natural recombination and intermediate host, the killer coronavirus probably originated from a laboratory in Wuhan.

Sean in Ottawa

iyraste1313 wrote:

 from a scientist at the prestigious South China University of Technology in Guangzhou China. A pre-print published by Botao Xiao and Lei Xiao, titled "The possible origins of 2019-nCoV coronavirus" whose abstract is the following...

The 2019-nCoV has caused an epidemic of 28,060 laboratory-confirmed infections in human including 564 deaths in China by February 6, 2020. Two descriptions of the virus published on Nature this week indicated that the genome sequences from patients were almost identical to the Bat CoV ZC45 coronavirus. It was critical to study where the pathogen came from and how it passed onto human. An article published on The Lancet reported that 27 of 41 infected patients were found to have contact with the Huanan Seafood Market in Wuhan. We noted two laboratories conducting research on bat coronavirus in Wuhan, one of which was only 280 meters from the seafood market. We briefly examined the histories of the laboratories and proposed that the coronavirus probably originated from a laboratory. Our proposal provided an alternative origin of the coronavirus in addition to natural recombination and intermediate host.

In summary, somebody was entangled with the evolution of 2019-nCoV coronavirus. In addition to origins of natural recombination and intermediate host, the killer coronavirus probably originated from a laboratory in Wuhan.

No in summary there is an unproven theory of a possibility that maybe there is a chance this was not what almost every single expert in the world believes. Uhuh.

Please stop with these logical leaps from possibility to probability to certainty. I have been disputing your statements of certainty coming from unqualified people. Now I am disputing your statements of certainty coming from people who merely note the possibility.

There is also another probability: What is being touted as a spectacular coincidence is not much of one:

1) China is a country with a history of pathogens for reasons widely discussed.

2) China is interested in studying answers to common risks they have.

3) One of the biggest medical universities in China is Wuhan.

4) They located a major research lab there.

5) One of the places most at risk due to wet markets is Wuhan.

6) Given the above the coincidence of China being a country with a problem wanting to research it, and the co-location of a place at risk and a place of research is not really that big a coincidence.

This is a little like the logic of saying that heart medication causes heart attacks becuase people with bad hearts take medication.

You need more evidence than a statement of possibility arising from a coincidence that is not that significant of a coincidence.

There are conspiracy theorists around the wolrd wanting to blame China for this (many fake videos circulate blaming food choices) and this fantastical bioweapons conspiracy theory that has been often debunked and then a theory about sloppiness and accidental leaking. All this is to blame China without any more than imagination. Sure some minority of people may produce a theory but in the latest iteration (I know you are actively searching for this) you have a study that is not available to read. You ignore the many studies that are well known that dispute it. Now you ahve this thing that says a possibility. Hard to dispute possibility when you allow that it is improbable. So we get back to this insistence from you to find a way to blame the actions of the Chinese when there is as yet no actual eveidence to support that. I keep asking why you are doing this????

 

iyraste1313

There has been a considerable number of studies to demonstrate that the virus was engineered...why some people refuse to respect these studies, leads to conclusions!...the first was the Indian study, which the scientists were forced to retract their abstract and summary...and why? But their studies are there to see........the gene laboratory sequences are inserted!

Why this presitigious University left this conclusion that the virus sequence was engineered is open to reflection?

So you challenge their logic, as you do mine!
And yet what is the evidence that your non engineered theory is correct? Easily disputed by science.

And please enough of the bs attacks on the messenger...just please stick to the evidence. You can´t expect me to take you seriously by such distractions....

Global Times @globaltimesnews

Chinese experts said that there may be a surge on confirmed recently as more cities outside in Hubei include clinically diagnosed cases and medical staff may face more pressure. http://bit.ly/2Srokx5...

...the virus is not going away...just check on the studies re its resistability...9 days on a dry surface without destruction? For one....The chinese economy is on the brink of total collapse.....no one will buy anything Chinese.....

the supply houses in China in paralysis, will mean a spiralling collapse of global industrial production...
I suggest people take these matters a bit more seriously, if not hysterically, especially those who have not been forseeing and planning in expectation...

Paladin1

Lots of people try to dismiss the seriousness of the outbreak. A common view is that people die every day and the flu kills way more people every year, so it's not that bad.

Initially this outbreak was killing 1 out of every 30 people. That's slid to 1 in 46, but that's still incredibly high. If 1 out of every 46 people who caught the flu died it would be apocolyptic. This is more serious than people want to believe or accept.

It looks like there is an effort to keep it under wraps but it's not just children and old people dying from this (as per typical flu fatalities) it's otherwise quite healthy human beings. If you catch it you have a 1 in 46 chance of dying.

Sean in Ottawa

iyraste1313 wrote:

There has been a considerable number of studies to demonstrate that the virus was engineered...why some people refuse to respect these studies, leads to conclusions!...the first was the Indian study, which the scientists were forced to retract their abstract and summary...and why? But their studies are there to see........the gene laboratory sequences are inserted!

Why this presitigious University left this conclusion that the virus sequence was engineered is open to reflection?

So you challenge their logic, as you do mine!
And yet what is the evidence that your non engineered theory is correct? Easily disputed by science.

And please enough of the bs attacks on the messenger...just please stick to the evidence. You can´t expect me to take you seriously by such distractions....

Global Times @globaltimesnews

Chinese experts said that there may be a surge on confirmed recently as more cities outside in Hubei include clinically diagnosed cases and medical staff may face more pressure. http://bit.ly/2Srokx5...

...the virus is not going away...just check on the studies re its resistability...9 days on a dry surface without destruction? For one....The chinese economy is on the brink of total collapse.....no one will buy anything Chinese.....

the supply houses in China in paralysis, will mean a spiralling collapse of global industrial production...
I suggest people take these matters a bit more seriously, if not hysterically, especially those who have not been forseeing and planning in expectation...

I challenge your logic in saying this is conclusive without a shred of evidence other than some known anti-vax quacks.

I challenge you on the basis that you are engaged in victim blaming without evidence.

You have put forward a stream of discredited conspiracy theorists and one person who simply said it was possible based on a slim coincidence.

I recognize the severe implications of the disease and the terrible position China is in. I do not recognize any need to attack China as an intentional or negligent releaser without evidence.

I disagree that nobody will buy anything Chinese. Anyone paying attention knows this virus does not last in shipping. I am happy to buy something Chinese tomorrow if I need it.

I am no apologist for the Chinese government and you can see that from previous posts. I do support humanity and fairness. China is in trouble and while it may not have handled the case perfectly from the outset there is zero evidence that the government is at fault, that researchers who are studying this are at fault or that there is a military component. All these accusations smell like anti-Chinese prejudice to me becuase there is nothing of substance backing them up. I am perfectly capable of accepting -- with evidence --  the fault of any government but this is coming off like a cheap smear and I think it is offensive.

 

iyraste1313

VOA, a US-funded news organization operating in Asia (it's sort of like Radio Free Asia and Radio Free Europe), has reported that 471,531 people have been decisively identified as having had "close contact" with a confirmed infected patient.

"So far, 471,531 people have been identified as having had close contact with infected patients. There are now 181,386 people under medical observation," the Health Commission reported Thursday on its official website.

.......Lots of people try to dismiss the seriousness of the outbreak....

not just the fact of the outbreak, but why?

My attempts to suggest this has been engineered virus, either accidentally or not, released must be taken seriously!
Why is Winnipeg experimenting with these viruses. In fact was it not their material shipped to the Wuhan facility. Should not people of Winnipeg be a little concerned?

Aristotleded24

The total number of cases has yet to reach the 100 000 mark. The death toll is in the thousands. The world's population is in the billions.

I'm not buying into this panic, especially when far more dangerous diseases in greater numbers have and continued to ravage the developing world, and that these diseases will not receive any attention after coronavirus fades out, which it eventually will.

Sean in Ottawa

iyraste1313 wrote:

 

My attempts to suggest this has been engineered virus, either accidentally or not, released must be taken seriously!

Get some real evidence not just a pile of maybe's, conjectures and conspiracy theories and maybe you will be taken seriously. What you are doing is victim blaming since you have no evidence. Why do people have to take your fantasies seriously? How will it help anyone? 

Paladin1

Aristotleded24 wrote:

The total number of cases has yet to reach the 100 000 mark. The death toll is in the thousands. The world's population is in the billions.

I'm not buying into this panic, especially when far more dangerous diseases in greater numbers have and continued to ravage the developing world, and that these diseases will not receive any attention after coronavirus fades out, which it eventually will.

 

Which diseases currently effect 66,000 people in 60 days and has a 1 in 46 mortality rate?

Paladin1

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

iyraste1313 wrote:

 

My attempts to suggest this has been engineered virus, either accidentally or not, released must be taken seriously!

Get some real evidence not just a pile of maybe's, conjectures and conspiracy theories and maybe you will be taken seriously. What you are doing is victim blaming since you have no evidence. Why do people have to take your fantasies seriously? How will it help anyone? 

I don't have any evidence and I don't buy into conspiricy stuff but manufacturing a disease like this in a lab is hardly beyond the realm of possibility.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment

Governments are fucked up.

 

Aristotleded24

Paladin1 wrote:
Aristotleded24 wrote:

The total number of cases has yet to reach the 100 000 mark. The death toll is in the thousands. The world's population is in the billions.

I'm not buying into this panic, especially when far more dangerous diseases in greater numbers have and continued to ravage the developing world, and that these diseases will not receive any attention after coronavirus fades out, which it eventually will.

 

Which diseases currently effect 66,000 people in 60 days and has a 1 in 46 mortality rate?

Almost none of which happened outside of China, a country with close to 1 and a half billion people, and a 66 000 infection rate among a population of people numbering in the billions. As for your point upthread about healthy people falling over? Healthy people also die outside of epidemics. Check the obituary section of your local paper, and it is not uncommon to see pictures of people in their 40s, 30s, and even their 20s who died suddenly. There are legitimate questions about how the health systems of poorer countries will cope with the outbreak, unfortunately the focus will be on people panicking over coronavirus rather than on fixing those health systems.

The media makes up all kinds of things for people to be afraid of, and obscures real threats. To use a local example, it astonishes me that media here in Winnipeg manage to find people who suffered severe consequences of West Nile virus as a way to browbeat people who oppose fogging, and yet they can't seem to find people whose bodies were mangled in traffic accidents. Which of those 2 things do you think poses a greater threat to health and safety in Winnipeg, West Nile or traffic accidents?

Still not biting on this panic. 66 000 people in Winnipeg being infected over a 60 day period might concern me, but we're not at that level yet.

Sean in Ottawa

Paladin1 wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

iyraste1313 wrote:

 

My attempts to suggest this has been engineered virus, either accidentally or not, released must be taken seriously!

Get some real evidence not just a pile of maybe's, conjectures and conspiracy theories and maybe you will be taken seriously. What you are doing is victim blaming since you have no evidence. Why do people have to take your fantasies seriously? How will it help anyone? 

I don't have any evidence and I don't buy into conspiricy stuff but manufacturing a disease like this in a lab is hardly beyond the realm of possibility.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment

Governments are fucked up.

 

To what end? You cannot weaponize an epidemic to kill only people of a single nationality?

There still is no evidence for this speculation despite how exciting it may be for some to speculate about it.

Aristotleded24

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Paladin1 wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

iyraste1313 wrote:

 

My attempts to suggest this has been engineered virus, either accidentally or not, released must be taken seriously!

Get some real evidence not just a pile of maybe's, conjectures and conspiracy theories and maybe you will be taken seriously. What you are doing is victim blaming since you have no evidence. Why do people have to take your fantasies seriously? How will it help anyone? 

I don't have any evidence and I don't buy into conspiricy stuff but manufacturing a disease like this in a lab is hardly beyond the realm of possibility.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment

Governments are fucked up.

 

To what end? You cannot weaponize an epidemic to kill only people of a single nationality?

There still is no evidence for this speculation despite how exciting it may be for some to speculate about it.

I'll also add that as far as mutations go, it is to evolutionary advantage of a virus to become less lethal, as the more people die from it, the less chance the virus has to spread and propogate itself.

Paladin1

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Almost none of which happened outside of China, a country with close to 1 and a half billion people, and a 66 000 infection rate among a population of people numbering in the billions.

And there's crazy quarentine practices going in effect.  1000 bed hospital in a week. Armed police and military enforcing  the quarenteen. Other countries quarentining (I can't spell sorry) travllers. We have a few hundred locked up in Trenton ourselves. North Korea shoots people who violate quarentine.

Quote:
As for your point upthread about healthy people falling over? Healthy people also die outside of epidemics. Check the obituary section of your local paper, and it is not uncommon to see pictures of people in their 40s, 30s, and even their 20s who died suddenly.

Oh I know that story. Ar15s have been used in 1 murder in Canada in 40 years. 1 murder in 40 years, but they're still the poster child for assault weapons bans etc.. etc.. You would statistically save more lives by banning hotdogs, but I digress.

Healthy people die every day whether by accident or disease you're right, but that's not the issue here. The issue is a very contageous new strain of a contagion that kills 1 in every 46 people that gets infected. That's a 2.1% mortality rate.

To put that in perspective on average 5 to 20 percent of the United States population gets the flu each year.  To suggest this virus is just like the flu that would mean 327,200 to 1,374,240 Americans would die from the flu in a year. Since 2010 there's been between 12,000 – 61,000 deaths annually from the flu in the US.

I'm not saying panic and run around like a maniac waiting for the end of days but when you look at the numbers it's a very potent thing. I think we got pretty lucky with our quarentine proceedures this time.

 

 

Paladin1

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

To what end? You cannot weaponize an epidemic to kill only people of a single nationality?

I think to answer to what end you could simply say just because. Governments do all kinds of weird shit and weird experiments. And there is always money.

There's some doccumentries showing how doctors knew certain drugs were crazy addictive but ignored it and perscribed this stuff like crazy. They would open their clinics at midnight. "Patients" would park cars and wait outside the clinic for days until they could get their perscriptions refilled. It was found the same doctors also started investing in rehab clinics. Coincidence?

It doesn't take a lot of creativity to imagine a government developing an accute strain of a diseases then developing and pattening a vaccene for it.  If you want to destabilize someones economy, government, healthcare or security a great way is to introduce something that kills 1 in 40 some people.

I'm not suggesting this is what happened but it's not unplausable.

Different cultures around the world have different dna markers as well. I don't think developing some kind of bio weapon that taregts these markers is pure sci-fi. Why would someone do something like that? Because they can.

Sean in Ottawa

Paladin1 wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

To what end? You cannot weaponize an epidemic to kill only people of a single nationality?

I think to answer to what end you could simply say just because. Governments do all kinds of weird shit and weird experiments. And there is always money.

There's some doccumentries showing how doctors knew certain drugs were crazy addictive but ignored it and perscribed this stuff like crazy. They would open their clinics at midnight. "Patients" would park cars and wait outside the clinic for days until they could get their perscriptions refilled. It was found the same doctors also started investing in rehab clinics. Coincidence?

It doesn't take a lot of creativity to imagine a government developing an accute strain of a diseases then developing and pattening a vaccene for it.  If you want to destabilize someones economy, government, healthcare or security a great way is to introduce something that kills 1 in 40 some people.

I'm not suggesting this is what happened but it's not unplausable.

Different cultures around the world have different dna markers as well. I don't think developing some kind of bio weapon that taregts these markers is pure sci-fi. Why would someone do something like that? Because they can.

1) the things you mention are controllable which is the point when it is for weapons or money and they involve solutions you can pay for. This, no.

2) This is implausible and there is no evidence.

Why reach like this? You need to ask this question. There are endless crazy theories we can come up with based on what is remotely possible. This is clearly victim blaming now. Keep your skepticism but wait for something real in terms of evidence -- please. You don't know but there are real people who face the consequences of these types of speculations.

Paladin1

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

 Keep your skepticism but wait for something real in terms of evidence -- please. You don't know but there are real people who face the consequences of these types of speculations.

I have a background in Chemical, Biological, Radiation and Nuclear warfare training. I'm somewhat read in to the subject.

Biological weapons are a very real thing. Look at the U.S. biological defense programs.  The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention was just pinged to receive $8 billion  ($636 million increase over 2019).

Projects Bacchus, Jefferson and Clear Vision were all secret US military (DoD) projects for developing countermeasures against anthrax- a very big threat around 2000 and later. Look at the other multitude of countries researching and developing this stuff.

Canada has live-agent training with antrax in Alberta.

 

Long story short, germ warfare and developing bioweapons is a realworld concern that gets billions allocated to it.

 

Sean in Ottawa

Paladin1 wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

 Keep your skepticism but wait for something real in terms of evidence -- please. You don't know but there are real people who face the consequences of these types of speculations.

I have a background in Chemical, Biological, Radiation and Nuclear warfare training. I'm somewhat read in to the subject.

Biological weapons are a very real thing. Look at the U.S. biological defense programs.  The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention was just pinged to receive $8 billion  ($636 million increase over 2019).

Projects Bacchus, Jefferson and Clear Vision were all secret US military (DoD) projects for developing countermeasures against anthrax- a very big threat around 2000 and later. Look at the other multitude of countries researching and developing this stuff.

Canada has live-agent training with antrax in Alberta.

 

Long story short, germ warfare and developing bioweapons is a realworld concern that gets billions allocated to it.

 

This is still not logical. Yes germ warfare gets billions allocated to it. It has also been debunked as a cause of this virus. As well there is simply no evidence behind this speculation. A great number of explanations are out there as to why this is not bioengineered. 

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/02/baseless-conspiracy-theories-claim-new-coronavirus-was-bioengineered/

https://www.wired.com/story/coronavirus-conspiracy-theories/

Paladin1

I don't think you're wrong and I don't think it was bioengineered myself either. I find most of the conspiricy theories out there somewhere between annoying and obnoxious.

Iraq not actually having WMD's was also a conspiricy theory so I still like to keep an open mind.

iyraste1313

Dr. Leonard Horowitz, the famed pharma industry whistleblower, quoted one expert as saying he would plan a bio-attack

“with subtle finesse, to make it look like a natural outbreak. That would delay the response and lock up the decision-making process. Even if you suspect biological terrorism, it’s hard to prove. It’s equally hard to disprove . . . You can trace an arms shipment, but it’s almost impossible to trace the origins of a virus that comes from a bug.”

One author noted that a properly-done release of an infectious agent would make diagnosis and treatment difficult, adding that this kind of bio-warfare cannot be traced to its source and might be considered an “act of God”......

Larry Romanof on the history of biological weapons war 

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

iyraste1313 wrote:

Dr. Leonard Horowitz, the famed pharma industry whistleblower, quoted one expert as saying he would plan a bio-attack

“with subtle finesse, to make it look like a natural outbreak. That would delay the response and lock up the decision-making process. Even if you suspect biological terrorism, it’s hard to prove. It’s equally hard to disprove . . . You can trace an arms shipment, but it’s almost impossible to trace the origins of a virus that comes from a bug.”

One author noted that a properly-done release of an infectious agent would make diagnosis and treatment difficult, adding that this kind of bio-warfare cannot be traced to its source and might be considered an “act of God”......

Larry Romanof on the history of biological weapons war 

Assuming for the sake of argument that this is correct, who do you think is doing the attacking? Is it the U.S. attacking China? Will this outbreak actually benefit the American oligarchs enough that they would take this radical step? It certainly will have a negative impact on the bottom lines of almost all trans-national corporations. So who benefits, and how?

Sean in Ottawa

Paladin1 wrote:

I don't think you're wrong and I don't think it was bioengineered myself either. I find most of the conspiricy theories out there somewhere between annoying and obnoxious.

Iraq not actually having WMD's was also a conspiricy theory so I still like to keep an open mind.

I have no problem with minds being open. I have responded with annoyance at the presentation of negligible evidence as certainty.

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