Coronavirus: what Canadians need to know

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NDPP

Thanksgiving in America

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/11/23/pers-n23.html

"Massive food lines and evictions as benefits expire..."

 

Aristotleded24

kropotkin1951 wrote:
So you want the politicians to determine health measures not the public health officials. I guess we will just have to disagree about who should be giving the orders in an emergency. The big thing is you don't really seem to think this is an emergency and I do. If I am on a ferry and we start to sink I will take my orders from the Captain not the Minister of Ferries.

Decisions about things like which businesses can open or close, how many people can be inside a business, and whether or not I am allowed to have people at my residence are all political decisions. That the health officials are involved is a cover so politicians can easily deflect blame from the inevitable carnage these lockdowns will cause. The fact is, it's the politicians that enable these restrictions. As long as the politicians decide to continue to extend the emergency orders, these measures can continue. If the politicians do nothing and the emergency orders expire, these measurse have no effect.

Politicians, public health officials. These people are not gods, they are human beings. They have biases and flaws, and make mistakes like the rest of us people. Personally, I don't trust either group of individuals. The politicians and the public health officials are looked after pretty well. No matter what happens with these measures, their incomes are not going to be impacted by these measures. They will be fine. The rest of us will have to struggle with all sorts of ramifications, and the health officials have, for the most part, been completely tone deaf and unreceptive to that. Elitist twits the lot of them.

Pondering

Aristotleded24 wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:
While this is a Scottish public service announcement I think it is germane to a discussion about what Canadians need to know.

">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsiXbrH_vUA&feature=share&fbclid=IwAR2GI...

*Yawn* just baseless fear tactics among the Iraq-WMD lies from people who believe they have a right to control other people's behaviour just because they are scared, and who seem to believe that just because they feel bad about something the world has to change to appease them. Responsible adults deal with their own feelings without trying to control other people.

The decisions are not being made by people in general nor by health officials. The decisions are being made by elected politicians. I would rather have health officials making the decisions but by law politicians are doing it. 

There is absolutely no need to look beyond your local hospital. If the nurses and doctors are saying they are close to capacity there are few choices. 

1) Do nothing until the hospital can no longer cope and must cancel surgeries. 

2) Do nothing permanently and order in the refrigerator trucks for people dying from Covid and from normally non-fatal conditions like strokes, heart attacks and giving birth. 

3) Use limited restrictions to keep cases at a pace the hospitals can cope with.

4) Do more vigorous shut downs, almost Wuhan style, then jump on hot spots. 

In Canada various provinces and communities made a wide variety of choices. There has been no one variety fits all. The majority of Canadians agree with varying levels of restrictions.

Iraq WMDs were a made up excuse to invade Iraq. They didn't exist. Covid-19 exists and has killed almost 60 million people worldwide. 

Aristotled, you are the definition of a partisan conspiracy theorist. Literally. No exageration. Your devotion is to libertarianism and you will believe anything that supports it regardless of evidence. 

There will be 50 scientists saying one thing and 2 scientists saying another, but you will use the 1 as "proof" that the 49 are wrong. In rare cases it is true that the 1 can be right but not yet accepted by the established powers that be. 

This is not one of those rare cases. We have proof from the community level to the global level. Throughout the entire world there is not one single example of what you promote including Sweden. 

You are entitled to your own opinion but you are not entitled to your own facts. Covid-19 is a factual reality. Hospitals being unable to keep up is a factual reality. Nurses are not hiding in the back room slacking off. They are not exagerating. There is no need to reference a single number to understand that.

If we open up more the hospitals will not be able to bear the strain. We are not even at the end of November yet. We are not being too strict we are being too lax. January and February are typically peak season for the flu. This year the flu is already down 98%. Covid-19 is not. The numbers are going up. January, February and March are going to be devastating on multiple levels.

This has been done in the name of keeping the economy going, not in the name of freedom. Ironically this approach will be worse for business. If we had done really strict regional lockdowns from the beginning all of Canada could be a bubble by now. Montreal should have been in soft quarantine from the rest of the province. Perhaps Quebec City too. This could have been shut down in a matter of months with the exception of hot spots. 

Even now, the responsible thing would be to go into a well-planned 2 month shut down including soft curfews and limited travel between regions. Massively ramp-up testing and tracing so that resources can be sent to hot spots and everyone else can carry on. 

Politicians almost without exception get a big fat FAIL on pandemic management and so does the WHO. 

JKR

Pondering wrote:

1) Do nothing until the hospital can no longer cope and must cancel surgeries. 

https://youtu.be/OVp2U2p4lmE

NDPP

'Night and Day': Toronto Doctor Speaks Out as Hospitals Fill Up and COVID-19 Patients Die (and vid)

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/night-and-day-toronto-doctor-s...

"Dr Abdu Sharkawy is currently working in the COVID-19 ward at Toronto General Hospital. 'We anticipate a lot more people being sick, coming from long-term care homes, coming from our own communities. They don't need to die,' he said."

NDPP

On Contact: COVID-19 & America's Health Care Crisis (and vid)

https://www.rt.com/shows/on-contact/507334-covid19-america-health-crisis/

"Chris Hedges talks to Dr Margaret Flowers about the COVID-19 pandemic and the catastrophic response to the public health crisis under America's for-profit healthcare system."

NDPP

Ont Govt to Extend Term of CMOH David Williams

https://twitter.com/drmwarner/status/1330921626268037121

"As there is no light between Doug Ford and Dr Williams, Ontario may now remain in darkness until 2021."

 

'I'm having whatever Doug's having.' - Williams is an incompetent yes-man for Ford who is an incompetent yes-man for the elite.

NDPP

Ontario Appoints Retired General Rick Hillier to Oversee Vaccine Rollout

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/covid-19-coronavirus-ontario-nove...

"We need military precision,' Ford said."

 

Another incompetent...

Is Hillier Out of Line?

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/2007/02/20/is_hillier_out_of_line.html

"Canada's mission in Afghanistan is failing and Chief of Defence Staff Rick Hillier deserves much of the blame."

NDPP

Delays, Conflict and Confusion Hampered Ontario's COVID-19 Response: Auditor General

https://twitter.com/CBCToronto/status/1331613248420974603

"Ontario's response to the COVID-19 pandemic was hampered by poor emergency preparedness, inadequate lab capacity and a disorganized public health system, according to a report issued Wednesday by the province's auditor general. The auditor is working on a second special report on COVID-19, which will focus on health-related pandemic expenditures, personal protective equipment and long-term care..."

As is patently obvious to anyone living here - a fiasco. Ford should go.

NDPP

AstraZeneca Manufacturing Error Raises Questions About Vaccine Study Results

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/astrazeneca-oxford-vaccine-error-trial-re...

"Experts are questioning the trial's early results..."

Stay tuned for more vaccine chaos and confusion news in this space soon...like .how soon will we be getting jabbed with these miracle vaccines that JT paid lots of Canucklebucks up-front to ensure Canadian priority? Hint: don't hold your breath. Turns out that the 'turnout' may not occur exactly as advertised.

NDPP

Mexican ambassador slams vaccine 'selfishness'...

https://globalnews.ca/news/7483779/vaccine-mexico-conservatives-tweet/

"...Mexicans should be proud of the fact they will soon be able to access the COVID vaccine, replied O'Toole's office in an emailed statement. 'We wish Canadians had the same opportunity. The reality is that Canada is behind the US, UK, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Mexico, Brazil, India, and Indonesia for vaccine procurement. That's over 2.5 billion people or one-third of the population of the planet that is ahead of Canada for a vaccine. Where is Justin Trudeau's plan?"

So I wonder what those hundreds of millions of our Canucklbucks Justin gave Pfizer, Johnson  and Johnson etc were for?

NDPP

Secret Recordings Reveal Political Directives, Tensions Over Alberta's Pandemic Response

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/alberta-covid-19-response-tensio...

"Recordings provide rare glimpse into relationship between civil servants, political officials. 'What is there suggests to me that the pandemic response is in tatters,' said Ubaka Ogbogu, an associate law professor at the University of Alberta who specializes in public health law and policy."

 

Alberta Replaces Half-Measures with Slightly Tougher Half-Measures to Fight Pandemic

https://buff.ly/33iqmVE

"Public health policy in Alberta [and Ontario and...?] appears to be guided by business lobby groups, not the chief medical officer of health."

NDPP

Adamsons BBQ Owner Arrested After Defying Lockdown Orders for Third Straight Day

https://nowtoronto.com/food-and-drink/adamson-barbecue-ordered-closed-af...

"The BBQ restaurant became a flashpoint for anti-lockdown protests on Tuesday. After Skelly posted a video on Instagram saying he intended to defy Ontario lockdown orders and open Adamson BBQ for indoor dining on Tuesday, he repeated a popular conspiracy theory that case counts were being inflated and said the lockdown 'stinks of corruption.' Diners, many of them apparently maskless, (including Skelly himself), poured into the restaurant on Tuesday while various media watched from outside..."

 

Walmart Employee in Dawson Creek, BC Attacked After Asking Man to Wear Mask (and vid)

https://globalnews.ca/news/7485947/dawson-creek-walmart-mask-assault/

"The alleged assault in northern BC is the latest example of workers involved in confrontations with customers on the use of face coverings."

 

'We demand the right to spread covid!'

NDPP

Anti-maskers take note:

Edmonton COVID-19 Victim, 40, Documents Final Days on Instagram

https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/edmonton-covid-19-victim-40-documents-final-...

"I think what people need to know and need to hear: that a healthy 40-year-old guy full of energy, full of life, can be floored within a few days, 'said Lillian Lopez, one of several of Lam's family members..."

NDPP

Australia COVID-19 Hotspot Goes 28 Days Infection-Free after Long Lockdown

https://globalnews.ca/news/7487623/coronavirus-australia-victoria-infect...

"Australia's second largest state, Victoria, once the country's COVID-19 hotspot, said on Friday it has gone 28 days without detecting any new infections, a benchmark widely cited as eliminating the virus from the community. 'It has been very difficult but we are going to make up for it. We are going to go to the beach and have beautiful Tasmanian seafood and some pinot noir,' Allison Park, a Victoria resident visiting family in Tasmania told reporters in the city of Hobart after arriving on a plane from Melbourne..."

NDPP

Ontario has recorded 1855 new COVID-19 cases today. Some models  predict 9,000 cases per day by January.

Aristotleded24

Pondering wrote:
Do nothing permanently and order in the refrigerator trucks for people dying from Covid and from normally non-fatal conditions like strokes, heart attacks and giving birth.

Refrigerator trucks? I know that was an issue in New York. Has that happened anywhere else? Can you cite any actual news articles that say as much?

Pondering wrote:
The majority of Canadians agree with varying levels of restrictions.

Why should I consult with the majority before I decide what I think or how I feel about something? The majority of people would have also supported swift police actions to end the rail blockades earlier this year. I guess by that logic it is wrong for me to support the blockades?

Pondering wrote:
Covid-19 exists and has killed almost 60 million people worldwide.

It has infected close to 60 million people worldwide. Close to 1.4 million have died. That information is easliy available on Worldometers.

Pondering wrote:
Aristotled, you are the definition of a partisan conspiracy theorist. Literally.

I have posted facts and context about the covid pandemic. If all you can do is call me names and repeat angry social media memes, that says a great deal about your argument.

Pondering wrote:
Your devotion is to libertarianism and you will believe anything that supports it regardless of evidence.

Libertarian. Anarchist. Socialist. Capitalist Communist. Progressive. Fascist. Progressive. Regressive. Right-wing. Left-wing. I'm beginning to think that each one of these labels is functionally meaningless, and is used primarily as a means of in-group/out-group signaling. "I wear this label, I'm good!" "You wear that label, you're bad." I'm not sure I want to define myself by any label. Instead, I will look at the data and form whatever opinions the data lead me to conclude. If someone else wants to stick a label on me, that's up to them.

Pondering wrote:
You are entitled to your own opinion but you are not entitled to your own facts. Covid-19 is a factual reality. Hospitals being unable to keep up is a factual reality.

Let's take a look at actual hospitalization data from Ontario and Quebec as of November 28. For Ontario we have:

November 19: 526 hospitalizations (146 in ICU)

November 28: 595 hospitalizations (155 in ICU)

Not the greatest trend I'll admit. It is still well short of the hights in the spring. ICU numbers peaked on April 4 at 264 cases. The total number of hospitals peaked on May 14 at 1026. So somehow things were managed.

Onto Quebec:

November 21: 642 hospitalizations, 103 in ICU

November 27: 678 cases, 93 in ICU.

Hospitalizations up slightly, but the load on the ICU is less. These 2 provinces had the most comprehensive hospitalization data available.

Pondering wrote:
If we open up more the hospitals will not be able to bear the strain. We are not even at the end of November yet. We are not being too strict we are being too lax. January and February are typically peak season for the flu. This year the flu is already down 98%. Covid-19 is not. The numbers are going up. January, February and March are going to be devastating on multiple levels.

If these restrictions in Winnipeg last much longer, then I think we could be in for a rough ride for the next year at least. Limiting the capacity of people to gather inside during the coming months puts them at risk of freezing to death. I also believe that the coming winter of discontent will cause enormous social strain that has the potential to break out in exactly the kind of civil unrest we saw in Minneapolis earlier this year. Winnipeg has already had a problem with violent crime escalating in recent years. The complicating factor of meth use isn't helping matters, and I expect that to be an even greater problem. That would put strain on our EMS response. We could also see violent flare-ups also overwhelming our hospitals as well. My message to hospital employees who want to restrict freedom because they feel overwhelmed right now? Dealing with the fall-out from the pandemic response measures is not going to be fun for you in the next little bit.

Aristotleded24

NDPP wrote:

Australia COVID-19 Hotspot Goes 28 Days Infection-Free after Long Lockdown

https://globalnews.ca/news/7487623/coronavirus-australia-victoria-infect...

"Australia's second largest state, Victoria, once the country's COVID-19 hotspot, said on Friday it has gone 28 days without detecting any new infections, a benchmark widely cited as eliminating the virus from the community. 'It has been very difficult but we are going to make up for it. We are going to go to the beach and have beautiful Tasmanian seafood and some pinot noir,' Allison Park, a Victoria resident visiting family in Tasmania told reporters in the city of Hobart after arriving on a plane from Melbourne..."

So police brutality is okay as long as the victim is an anti-masker?

Quote:

A police officer accused of choking an unmasked woman in a dramatic Melbourne arrest that went viral on social media has been cleared.

A 21-year-old woman from St Kilda became involved in an altercation on August 12 after officers spotted her not wearing a mask in Collingwood.

As seen in the video above, a male officer can be seen placing his hands around the woman’s neck during the arrest.

NDPP

'When a PM Lies to Parliament, That's a Firing Offence' [Not in Canada]

First Doses of Pfizer Coronavirus Vaccine Have Flown to US From Belgium: Report

https://twitter.com/profamirattaran/status/1333094014468329472

"Remember when Trudeau said we have to wait for vaccine because Canada doesn't have manufacturing? Here's proof that's untrue: America just received its first doses of vaccine - from Belgium. When a PM lies to Parliament, that's a firing offence. [see twitter thread for more]

NDPP

Canada's incapacity to make vaccines, an outright Trudeau lie (and vid)

https://twitter.com/ctvpq/status/1333094236401627145

"The U of Ottawa's Prof Amir Attaran has written extensively about Canada's COVID-19 vaccine procurement efforts. So what does he think of the PM's assertion that Canada has no vaccine production capacity?"

NDPP

Beyond the numbers: who is dying of COVID in Canada, and how?

https://t.co/zG574TbHe8?amp=1

"We risk growing numb to the numbers - the daily summary of tests, cases and deaths. And doctors still don't fully comprehend the crapshoot nature of the disease.

Globally, Canada has the third highest case fatality rate (3.4) to date among medium-large, high-income peer countries, higher even than Spain, France, the USA and Germany.

Nationally, the number of tests performed per detected case is nearly as low as at the worst of the first wave, meaning that we're likely significantly underestimating the full size of the epidemic..."

NDPP

Why is a former Canadian NATO general overseeing Canada's vaccine rollout?

Trudeau Turns to the Military to Help with COVID-19 Vaccine Distribution

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-vaccine-distribution-military-1...

NDPP

Coronavirus silently infecting Americans before first cases emerged in Wuhan: CDC Study

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/coronavirus-silently-infecting-ameri...

"Coronavirus was present in the US weeks earlier than scientsts and public health officials previously thought, raising questions about the pandemic origin..."

NDPP

Opinion: How to Play the COVID-19 Endgame

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/opinion-how-to-play-the-covid-19-endgame

"There is no magic to this process, just continued adherence to the core principles of public health and epidemic management."

NDPP

COVID-19 Pandemic LIVE: World Map/Count

https://youtu.be/NMre6IAAAiU

12/01/2020 (Updating)

NDPP

COVID Canada Update 12/1/2020

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/

  • From booster shots to side effects: Your Covid-19 vaccine questions answered
  • Ont records another 1,700 news cases as testing slumps
  • Que reports 1,177 new cases as hospitalizations reach June levels
  • Alberta not likely to pursue 'covid-zero' as case numbers climb sharply

NDPP

Lessons from the Pandemic: How much can we handle?

https://twitter.com/JillianHortonMD/status/1333526808344604677

"As we try to cope with our own fear and uncertainty, perhaps our greatest challenge is helping our children learn to live with it too."

NDPP

Dr John Campbell, Coronavirus Updates (and vid)

https://youtu.be/9C2KH3Xt3W0

US Update:

https://youtu.be/2ku4VCPRLWI

NDPP

The Current for Dec 1, 2020

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-dec-1-2020-1.5823230

"Justin Trudeau on the cost of fighting the pandemic, What a 'she-covery' might look like, Housing the homeless as winter looms."

NDPP

Strong Decisive Pandemic Controls: Life is Almost Back to Normal in Australia

https://twitter.com/DFisman/status/1333940811013218305

"Weird. I thought they chose 'covid-zero' over the economy, but somehow they got both!? What kind of sorcery is this?"

Compare to Canadian COVID fiasco.

NDPP

"The UK approves the Pfizer vaccine! Doses will be imported in days, vaccinations coming next week. Could Canada have approved and imported it this quickly? I see no reason why not. PHAC says ours will start coming before March."

https://twitter.com/profamirattaran/status/1334122935687077888

Add this to the towering pile of  shit that is Canada's  covid-19 fiasco.

NDPP

Canada faces narrowing window to deploy COVID-19 vaccines against infection spread

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-canada-faces-narrowing-wi...

"...Jane Heffernan, a mathematician at York University in Toronto who specializes in the spread of infectious diseases, said that the impact of a vaccine arriving in Canada is highly time sensitive because of infection numbers approaching another peak some time in late February or early March. 'For any subpopulation to receive maximal benefits, we need to vaccinate before the peak,' Dr Heffernan said. Yet, a hasty approval could also be disastrous if problems arise later on, since public confidence in the vaccines will be essential to beating back the pandemic in the long term."

 

'Human Experimentation': Tory MP Sponsors E-Petition Disputing Assured Coronavirus Vaccine Safety

https://globalnews.ca/news/7497901/conservative-derek-sloan-e-petition-c...

"Conservative MP Derek Sloan has sponsored a parliamentary e-petition that raises questions about the future coronavirus vaccine. It also states that 'bypassing proper safety protocols means COVID-19 vaccination is effectively human experimentation..."

NDPP

"It's happened: More people died yesterday from COVID-19 than died on 9/11: 3,157 deaths in ONE day."

https://twitter.com/leahmcelrath/status/1334557836387430401

 

How the Government Could Mess Up the Vaccine like it did Covid

https://twitter.com/tribunemagazine/status/1334578055436759041

"The coming vaccine has Britain dreaming of post Covid life. But the Tory government's record on messaging, test and trace, and protecting the vulnerable doesn't bode well for the roll-out."

Ditto Canada.

eastnoireast

NDPP wrote:

 

'Human Experimentation': Tory MP Sponsors E-Petition Disputing Assured Coronavirus Vaccine Safety

https://globalnews.ca/news/7497901/conservative-derek-sloan-e-petition-c...

"Conservative MP Derek Sloan has sponsored a parliamentary e-petition that raises questions about the future coronavirus vaccine. It also states that 'bypassing proper safety protocols means COVID-19 vaccination is effectively human experimentation..."

seems about right.  the immune system is super complex.  there is absolutely no way to understand the full repercussions of subjecting it to a new, rushed, mass, for profit modifier in less than a year.

as A24 posted in another thread, This is a red flag we should pay attention to

i understand that the precautionary principle is so pre covid, but nonetheless i remain a fan;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle

The precautionary principle (or precautionary approach) is a broad epistemological, philosophical and legal approach to innovations with potential for causing harm when extensive scientific knowledge on the matter is lacking. It emphasizes caution, pausing and review before leaping into new innovations that may prove disastrous.[1] Critics argue that it is vague, self-cancelling, unscientific and an obstacle to progress.[2]

In an engineering context, the precautionary principle manifests itself as the factor of safety, discussed in detail in the monograph of Elishakoff.[3] It was apparently suggested, in civil engineering, by Belindor[4] in 1729. Interrelation between safety factor and reliability[5][4][6] is extensively studied by engineers and philosophers.

-

The principle has become an underlying rationale for a large and increasing number of international treaties and declarations in the fields of sustainable development, environmental protection, health, trade and food safety,[7] although at times it has attracted debate over how to accurately define it and apply it to complex scenarios with multiple risks. In some legal systems, as in law of the European Union, the application of the precautionary principle has been made a statutory requirement in some areas of law.[8]

-

NDPP

True enough, safety first.

ps thnx also for great guffaw at the notion of the imperialist gangsters of the EU as principled precautionary practitioners. Someone should take them to court. Alas, there too the criminals control the process. These are revolutionary times Covid or no covid. Ready or not.

Aristotleded24

eastnoireast wrote:

NDPP wrote:

 

'Human Experimentation': Tory MP Sponsors E-Petition Disputing Assured Coronavirus Vaccine Safety

https://globalnews.ca/news/7497901/conservative-derek-sloan-e-petition-c...

"Conservative MP Derek Sloan has sponsored a parliamentary e-petition that raises questions about the future coronavirus vaccine. It also states that 'bypassing proper safety protocols means COVID-19 vaccination is effectively human experimentation..."

seems about right.  the immune system is super complex.  there is absolutely no way to understand the full repercussions of subjecting it to a new, rushed, mass, for profit modifier in less than a year.

as A24 posted in another thread, This is a red flag we should pay attention to

i understand that the precautionary principle is so pre covid, but nonetheless i remain a fan;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle

The precautionary principle (or precautionary approach) is a broad epistemological, philosophical and legal approach to innovations with potential for causing harm when extensive scientific knowledge on the matter is lacking. It emphasizes caution, pausing and review before leaping into new innovations that may prove disastrous.[1] Critics argue that it is vague, self-cancelling, unscientific and an obstacle to progress.[2]

In an engineering context, the precautionary principle manifests itself as the factor of safety, discussed in detail in the monograph of Elishakoff.[3] It was apparently suggested, in civil engineering, by Belindor[4] in 1729. Interrelation between safety factor and reliability[5][4][6] is extensively studied by engineers and philosophers.

-

The principle has become an underlying rationale for a large and increasing number of international treaties and declarations in the fields of sustainable development, environmental protection, health, trade and food safety,[7] although at times it has attracted debate over how to accurately define it and apply it to complex scenarios with multiple risks. In some legal systems, as in law of the European Union, the application of the precautionary principle has been made a statutory requirement in some areas of law.[8]

-

This is troubling because I know Sloan has said some pretty reprehesnible things, but I have to support him for speaking out on this issue.

Aristotleded24

NDPP wrote:
True enough, safety first.

ps thnx also for great guffaw at the notion of the imperialist gangsters of the EU as principled precautionary practitioners. Someone should take them to court. Alas, there too the criminals control the process. These are revolutionary times Covid or no covid. Ready or not.

The response to covid turned me off the idea of revolutions of any kind. Since covid came on the scene, everyone seems to want to exploit the crisis to impose their utopian vision of society. Unfortunately, no matter what utopian vision you come up with, some peopel will disagree with that vision. Very often when revolutionaries sieze power, anyone who disagrees with their utopian vision is left behind and simply discarded. History has many examples to prove this.

NDPP

Pfizer CEO 'Not Certain' their Vaccine Stops Transmission of COVID

https://youtu.be/CN79hBUrLy4

"The top executive of pharma giant Pfizer said it still isn't clear if those who receive the company's vaccine will be able to transmit the coronavirus to others, just one day after the UK became the first to approve the innoculation."

NDPP

In a long and wide-ranging discussion at the Harvard Law School, Prof Noam Chomsky touches upon the present coronavirus pandemic @ 32:00 and the dangers of 'capitalist logic' applied to it.

Noam Chomsky at HLS: Nov 20, 2020

https://youtu.be/Zs-k1npk0Q8

On prospects for a better tomorrow.

 

eastnoireast

Aristotleded24 wrote:

NDPP wrote:
True enough, safety first.

ps thnx also for great guffaw at the notion of the imperialist gangsters of the EU as principled precautionary practitioners. Someone should take them to court. Alas, there too the criminals control the process. These are revolutionary times Covid or no covid. Ready or not.

The response to covid turned me off the idea of revolutions of any kind. Since covid came on the scene, everyone seems to want to exploit the crisis to impose their utopian vision of society. Unfortunately, no matter what utopian vision you come up with, some peopel will disagree with that vision. Very often when revolutionaries sieze power, anyone who disagrees with their utopian vision is left behind and simply discarded. History has many examples to prove this.

yeah, i was surprised to find pp in the eu governance.  that's not where i became familiar with it...

i think covid has shown that there is a deep lack of and aversion to honest analysis (honest = i might be wrong, even if i think i'm not), and a whole lotta' rally 'round the strongman i'm scared.  and analysis is fundamental to opposing power, let alone running things differently.

 

Aristotleded24

eastnoireast wrote:

Aristotleded24 wrote:

NDPP wrote:
True enough, safety first.

ps thnx also for great guffaw at the notion of the imperialist gangsters of the EU as principled precautionary practitioners. Someone should take them to court. Alas, there too the criminals control the process. These are revolutionary times Covid or no covid. Ready or not.

The response to covid turned me off the idea of revolutions of any kind. Since covid came on the scene, everyone seems to want to exploit the crisis to impose their utopian vision of society. Unfortunately, no matter what utopian vision you come up with, some peopel will disagree with that vision. Very often when revolutionaries sieze power, anyone who disagrees with their utopian vision is left behind and simply discarded. History has many examples to prove this.

yeah, i was surprised to find pp in the eu governance.  that's not where i became familiar with it...

i think covid has shown that there is a deep lack of and aversion to honest analysis (honest = i might be wrong, even if i think i'm not), and a whole lotta' rally 'round the strongman i'm scared.  and analysis is fundamental to opposing power, let alone running things differently.

 

I think the core issue at stake here is that people, especially in Western society, have difficulty with the idea that there are some things in life that are simply beyond human control. That's the one question we never seem to ask ourselves about covid. Many independent experts and scientists have suggested this. If, however, any of the Chief Medical Officers of Health said to their respective ministers of health, "I'm sorry, but the truth is there is very little we can do in order to stop this virus," the health minister would simply find someone else to find a way to "control" this thing.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

Aristotleded24 wrote:

I think the core issue at stake here is that people, especially in Western society, have difficulty with the idea that there are some things in life that are simply beyond human control. That's the one question we never seem to ask ourselves about covid. Many independent experts and scientists have suggested this. If, however, any of the Chief Medical Officers of Health said to their respective ministers of health, "I'm sorry, but the truth is there is very little we can do in order to stop this virus," the health minister would simply find someone else to find a way to "control" this thing.

It is true that many individuals in Western society tend to imagine that science and technology can solve any problem. It is also true that some challenges are insuperable (at least at a particular time and place), and will defeat us, whatever we try to do.

However, suggesting that Covid-19 is anywhere in the ballpark of "beyond human control" is mind-bogglingly contrary to everything that has happened in the last year, since the novel coronavirus was first discovered. Many approaches to mitigation have been tried in many different places, and the outcomes have been so different that much thought has been spent on trying to discover the operative differences. Far from having no effect, the different approaches have had wildly varying results, ranging from nearly complete failure (USA, Brazil) to almost complete success (New Zealand, South Korea).

If this were truly "beyond human control", then all countries would have seen the same results, namely total failure to control the pandemic. It is hard to see how you can refuse to acknowledge this empirically obvious fact. It's almost as if you are saying "Who you gonna believe, me and my fringy citations, or your lying eyes?"

Aristotleded24

Michael Moriarity wrote:
Many approaches to mitigation have been tried in many different places, and the outcomes have been so different that much thought has been spent on trying to discover the operative differences.

Nearly every approach to mitigation we have taken has failed. We tried locking down, however when Belgium and Peru did that, they lost more people as a percentage of their populations to covid than almost anywhere else in the world. Testing and tracing has failed, as many cases cannot be traced back to a single source, and people will often refuse to co-operate with tracers. Winnipeg has been under as close to a universal mask mandate in every sense that matters since September 28, and cases here have skyrocketed. The largest covid wave and the largest death wave here in Manitoba happened in November, when social distancing restrictions were at their most limiting. Furthermore, fatal outbreaks of covid in nursing homes have happened througout this country since the start of the pandemic regardless of the state of lockdown or how open the economy was.

Michael Moriarity wrote:
Far from having no effect, the different approaches have had wildly varying results, ranging from nearly complete failure (USA, Brazil) to almost complete success (New Zealand, South Korea).

You  mean how New Zealand was so successful stopping covid that it had to go into a second lockdown, which resulted in lockdown protests? You mean how South Korea was so successful stopping the coronavirus that it is now in its third wave? You mention the United States? You do understand that many different approaches were taken in different regions of the country? Are you referring to how states led by Republican governers failed by generally losing smaller proportions of their population to covid than states led by Democrats, even though Democrats were generally stricter about closing things down?

Michael Moriarity wrote:
If this were truly "beyond human control", then all countries would have seen the same results, namely total failure to control the pandemic. It is hard to see how you can refuse to acknowledge this empirically obvious fact. It's almost as if you are saying "Who you gonna believe, me and my fringy citations, or your lying eyes?"

I think the approach you have taken is quite reductionistic. Many experts who advocate for suppression have tunnel vision, and are focused only on covid. Furthermore, the experts who preach the gospel of "social distancing" and "stay at home" generally are not in a position where the measures will have serious impacts on their personal lives, otherwise they would find a different solution. The fact that Neil Ferguson, whose modelling is the basis of the British lockdown, had someone over to his place in violation of lockdown says all I need to know about the entiled priviledge of these experts. There are other things that are happening in the world besides that, and many people have more pressing things to worry about. Everyone agreed that the covid restrictions were going to tank the economy, and we know that bad economies kill people. I can't imagine that even the worst unmitigated spread of the virus would have had as nearly bad impacts for such a long term as what we are seeing with the economy.

How anyone on the left can advocate for economic destruction knowing that it will hurt people at the bottom end, or strict social distancing measures knowing that once the police are brought in to enforce them that the police will target vulnerable people the left claims to care about, is mind-boggling.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

I no longer think it is worth the time and effort of talking to you, A24, so buh-bye.

bekayne

Aristotleded24 wrote:

 

You  mean how New Zealand was so successful stopping covid that it had to go into a second lockdown, which resulted in lockdown protests?

You keep saying this. What does the existence of  a protest prove? Is the protester always right?

bekayne

Remember Kevin Annett? Some here were big fans of his. He's got a new project:

Most worryingly of all is in another video from November 18th, in which Annett promotes an early plot to sabotage Canada’s vaccine supplies and equipment:

"We're having a sherriff meeting tonight in Vancouver. We're talking concretely about how we're going to stop these measures. For example one thing we're finding out is where these vaccines are being shipped from and to, where they are being stored. Okay? Like the sheriffs in Vancouver are talking openly about going in and trashing these vaccines. We are not going to let these vaccinations be distributed. We’re going to stop it, physically, from happening."

https://neetnewz.substack.com/p/common-law-assemblies-forming-across

Aristotleded24

bekayne wrote:

Aristotleded24 wrote:

 

You  mean how New Zealand was so successful stopping covid that it had to go into a second lockdown, which resulted in lockdown protests?

You keep saying this. What does the existence of  a protest prove? Is the protester always right?

Protesters aren't always right, but when it comes to public health measures, public buy-in is important. If a public health measure generates resentment among certain segments of the population, that undermines confidence in public health guidance. We've seen from lockdown protests in Europe and the UK that there is some resentment and frustration with being told where not to go. If people stop listening, and that frustration boils over into social unrest (which is becoming an actual threat as the lockdowns are pushing people into desparation and poverty) that is not good for society in the long run.

Aristotleded24

Michael Moriarity wrote:
I no longer think it is worth the time and effort of talking to you, A24, so buh-bye.

Have fun in self-isolation where you are safe from the negative economic, social, emotional, and physical health impacts from the social distancing measures that many of us have to endure.

NDPP

COVID Canada Updates: 12/5/2020

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus

  • Que shatters record with over 2,000 new COVID-19 cases
  • Ont breaks another record for new COVID-19 cases (1859)
  • New COVID modelling: Manitoba in December
  • WHO warns vaccines 'do not equal zero COVID'

NDPP

Finding New Ways to Suck Every Single Day

https://twitter.com/DFisman/status/1334193283581571080

"Ontario's PCs killed a bill that would have brought transparency and non-partisanship to public health in Ontario."

 

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