Democratic Congresswoman Shot in Arizona

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6079_Smith_W

Unionist wrote:

Gee, thanks for setting me straight. I'll stop calling for their assassination now.

Unionist, I think we have beaten around those first few points a few times. I'm not going to repeat myself endlessly.

But at least once in this thread you have used her politics as a reason why we should not be concerned that she was shot.

Sorry, but I am concerned when anyone gets shot. And I am even more concerned when that person is a public figure.

And even moreso when such an attack takes place in a society where it is okay to put gunsights on people's heads and use other violent rhetoric.

6079_Smith_W

Yes, aside from that Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?

Unionist

6079_Smith_W wrote:

But at least once in this thread you have used her politics as a reason why we should not be concerned that she was shot.

No - I questioned (and still do) why we pay more attention to such a shooting in the U.S. than in (say) Pakistan. I've cited some of the replies up there (democratically elected vs. not, etc.). And I also questioned why we would care more about an attack on someone who sends U.S. troops to Afghanistan than about their victims. Do you have an actual answer to my question? Or do you deny the phenomenon I'm identifying?

Quote:
Sorry, but I am concerned when anyone gets shot.

Well, you're a better person than I. I'm not concerned when "anyone gets shot". My head and heart just aren't big enough for that.

Quote:
And I am even more concerned when that person is a public figure.

Now we're getting somewhere. I'm more concerned when the person who is shot is a victim of "public figures".

Quote:
And even moreso when such an attack takes place in a society where it is okay to put gunsights on people's heads and use other violent rhetoric.

So you mention that, but not sending troops abroad, and lethal injections, and lack of health care and care for poor people and the environment. So you have implicitly identified your view of the causal factors here. My analysis is very dramatically different. That's legitimate, and needs debate and discussion.

Unionist

Bacchus wrote:

Oh thank god we can blame it on the nazis.

 

Or was he a self hating jew?

Laughing

Thanks for that, Bacchus. This thread needs some shaking up.

 

takeitslowly

i am not anymore concerend about someone being killed just because they are a politican. Anyways, its a struggle out there, so many people are dying and I am suprised actually that these incidents are so rare, considering how little attention we paid to people with mental health issues both here and in the U.S

and yeah, before someone start calling out people for being crazy, lets try to do something positive for people with mental health issues. I am on anti-depressant/anti anixety pills, i forgot to take my pills last night, and i am crying everyday because i cant find a full time job, i am not far away from being crazy, how many do you think actually gives a flying fuck here about the mentally sick in Canada, even in toronto? people like us , the crazy ones, or the one close to being crazy due to many social/psychological factors, we die all the time, does the media care? does anyone care? what tragedy.

6079_Smith_W

Unionist.

I have said a couple of times I don't care how you feel about this issue. I believe I understand your position and I think you are welcome to it.

As for how important and relevant it is I suppose the fact that the sun comes up every morning is probably of more importance to our existance than this tragic event. But it is hardly news.

For that matter, there are quite a few topics here I have no interest in, and which I think are completely ridiculous. What I don't do is do into those threads. stand in the center of the room and tell people repeatedly they should be talking about other things. I leave them to their own business and take care of my own.

jas

Actually, could the thread be about the topic rather than about Unionist's views on the topic, which everybody who has been bothering to read now fully knows by heart?

ElizaQ ElizaQ's picture

jas wrote:

Actually, could the thread be about the topic rather than about Unionist's views on the topic, which everybody who has been bothering to read now fully knows by heart?

Good plan in my book.   :)

takeitslowly

Unionist, you are a sweetie. I understand why people are talking about this issue, i really do, i mean, she is a pretty lady, she is someone important, she is a congresswoman, she was shot, this is epic. When a child is shot, that is even more tragic. Its something people talk about.

Its nice though to see you trying to talk about other issues, because the truth is, shit happens everyday. Politicans mostly dont have to deal with survival issues, they made it big time, the people talking about this shit on CNN have  nice secure jobs, they can talk about the political impact of this particular incident all day long, and meanwhile, shit still happens to ordinary people everyday, especially crazy people, some of them might end up being some crazy gun shooting freak who ends up injurying someone "important" because thats the only way for them to get any attention, any attention at all, good or bad.

yeah..

I also think about some big shot in suits and tie reading the news everyday, do they really care about humanity or is it a sort of thing they just do in order to "stay informed" , like what is the deal with these important taxpayers? They know so much about current events, they are great conversationist, do they really know what its like out there for the great unwashed? Boy, i wish i am like one of those people, talking about the state of politics over the dinner table..so important..

Boy, do i hate that Sarah palin! she is just mean and cruel.

6079_Smith_W

Actually I was thinking of parallels in our own politics. THere are plenty, but one which I noticed when it first happened was Harper referring to Bloc representatives as "seperatists" and saying that it would be illegitimate for the other parties to work with them.

It's not quite putting gunsights on your opponents, but it is ignoring the fact that they were in fact elected to represent the people in their ridings, and I think it is a similar attack on political institutions.

Unionist

jas wrote:

Actually, could the thread be about the topic rather than about Unionist's views on the topic, which everybody who has been bothering to read now fully knows by heart?

Thanks for your thoughtful posts in this thread to date, jas.

I guess you're looking for breaking CNN reports about the congresswoman's condition (she was dead, she's not dead, she'll be fine)?

 

Malcolm Malcolm's picture

Unionist wrote:

Really. What makes you think John Roll wasn't the target? Did you read what I reprinted above? And what's wrong with waiting for some evidence?

 

Roll was not scheduled to be at the event, apparently.  So, while it is possoble that the assailant was following Roll with the intent of assassinating him, that seems to be a less likely explanation.

NorthReport

Republicans cancel health-care vote after congresswoman shot

 

The decision to postpone debate on the health-care bill signals an effort by the Republicans to avoid the potential for angry debate - in Congress and in the U.S. public - over an issue that produced threats against Giffords and other lawmakers last year.

Republicans have made repealing the health-care legislation their first priority upon taking control of the House in the 112th Congress. The Republican effort to overturn the health-care reforms is largely symbolic because Republicans lack the votes needed in the U.S. Senate to support the House effort.

Law enforcement officials in Tucson said Saturday they did not yet know of a motive in Giffords' shooting. Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik said, however, that Giffords appeared to be the primary target of the attack.

Giffords, a moderate Democrat, voted in favour of President Barack Obama's $940-billion health-care overhaul last March. Her congressional offices in Tucson were subsequently vandalized. A protester left a gun behind at one of Giffords' town hall meetings in the summer of 2009, when opponents of the bill held angry demonstrations at several public events held by members of Congress.

 

 

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Republicans+cancel+health+care+vote+...

NorthReport

Arizona Suspect Likely Facing Death Penalty for Fatally Shooting Federal Judge

 

"My understanding is he just went to the Safeway to do some shopping ... and he just stopped to chat and say hi, " C.J. Karamargin, Giffords communications director, told Fox News.

Police say suspect Jared Lee Loughner, who is in custody, killed six people, including Roll, a 9-year-old child and Giffords' aide Gabe Zimmerman, and wounded 13 others, including Giffords who was shot in the head as she met with her constituents at the start of the meeting. 

Pima County, Ariz., Sheriff Clarence Dupnik said authorities believe Giffords was targeted by the shooter. But Fox News legal analyst Andrew Napolitano said the killer is likely facing the death penalty even if he didn't target Roll or others in particular during the shooting.

 

Napolitano said it would be a federal crime of capital murder eligible for the death sentence if the killer's motive was to prevent Roll from carrying out his judicial role.

"If on the other hand he was just killed because he happened to get in the way, then it's not a federal crime, then Arizona law would take place. He still may be exposed to the death penalty but it would be under Arizona jurisdiction and not federal."

 

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/01/08/arizona-suspect-likely-facing...

NorthReport

Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords warned of consequences from Sarah Palin's map

 

 

http://www.straight.com/article-367617/vancouver/congresswoman-gabrielle...

laine lowe laine lowe's picture

I feel bad for all the victims of this assault. But I have to wonder about Giffords being described as a moderate Democrat. What does it mean if the Democratic congress person who supports more border patrol and a surge of troops in Afghanistan is considered moderate? And why is the media assuming or implying that this event is related to her support for health care reform? I know that the right wing, especially the Tea Party "movement", are in a bent over backwards over it but what little I've read about the assailant, he seems to be a wing nut focused on the gold standard and government control over money, as well as a few other odd fixations.

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Malcolm wrote:

Unionist wrote:

Really. What makes you think John Roll wasn't the target? Did you read what I reprinted above? And what's wrong with waiting for some evidence?

Roll was not scheduled to be at the event, apparently.  So, while it is possoble that the assailant was following Roll with the intent of assassinating him, that seems to be a less likely explanation.

Well apeaentlly the gunman asked to see the congresswomen by name acording to this account...
Quote:

A 19-year-old volunteer at the event, Alex Villec, described how the violence unfolded.
Villec, a former staffer for the congresswoman, told The Associated Press that the man who later turned out to be the suspect arrived at the event wearing a black cap and baggy pants and asking for the congresswoman.
"I told him ... she'll be more than happy to talk to you as your turn comes," Villec said. The man walked away, but returned just minutes later and burst through a table separating Villec and Giffords from the public. Villec said he saw him raise an arm, and then he heard gunfire.
The gunman fired at Giffords and her district director and started shooting indiscriminately at staffers and others standing in line to talk to the congresswoman, said Mark Kimball, a communications staffer for Giffords.

Here's a link to the article... http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_congresswoman_shot
Look about 2/3 the way down the page. Everything else is up in the air at this point: this story needs more time for the facts to come out.

NorthReport

Gabrielle Giffords

 

www.GiffordsforCongress.com

This page is a forum to discuss the opportunities and challenges facing Southern Arizona and our nation as well as campaign activities. We ask that people maintain a tone of civility and respect with one another.

 

http://www.facebook.com/GGiffords

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

laine lowe wrote:

I feel bad for all the victims of this assault. But I have to wonder about Giffords being described as a moderate Democrat. What does it mean if the Democratic congress person who supports more border patrol and a surge of troops in Afghanistan is considered moderate? And why is the media assuming or implying that this event is related to her support for health care reform? I know that the right wing, especially the Tea Party "movement", are in a bent over backwards over it but what little I've read about the assailant, he seems to be a wing nut focused on the gold standard and government control over money, as well as a few other odd fixations.

This is speculation on my part but I think this guy was manipulated by others to do this...
As for your concerns about her support for more secure boarders you have to understand southern USA boarder state politics is very complex.  She also wanted a program for undocumented immigrants to be able to get registered without getting deported or arrested.  

NorthReport

Sarah Palin Blamed by Bloggers for Shooting of Gabrielle Giffords

 

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2011/01/08/sarah-palin-blamed-by-bloggers-f...

fencedin

The alleged shooter cited Mein Kampf and the Communist Manifesto, which says a lot about his ideological coherence. Either that, or how both Hitler and Marx inspired legions of mass murderers, and continue to do so.

What I find deeply disturbing is the fact that this incident, tragic though it is, has run up over 118 posts, yet the murder of Salman Taseer (and the huge support for the killing, in Pakistan), the recent mass murder of Coptic Christians in Egypt, and the fact that Copts had to cancel their Christmas services over death threats in Canada hasn't registered a blip on Rabble/Babble. At the mere mention of such blasphemies, posts are closed and posters banned. Also, would the moderators mind applying phrases like "tcrypto-fascist right" and "the underside of their catroonish, inflated and highly pitched rhetoric is blood, violence and death" to political and religious movements other than the Usual Suspects (Western Christian conservatives)? You know--the ones who claim they come in peace...

 

NorthReport

Say what?

 

fencedin wrote:

At the mere mention of such blasphemies, posts are closed and posters banned. Also, would the moderators mind applying phrases like "tcrypto-fascist right" and "the underside of their catroonish, inflated and highly pitched rhetoric is blood, violence and death" to political and religious movements other than the Usual Suspects (Western Christian conservatives)? You know--the ones who claim they come in peace...

 

KenS

Whatever the killer's particular twisted motives, Giffords was a constant target for her vocal opposition to Arizona's draconian immigration law, and vocal support for Obamacare.

She was a prime target for Palin and the Tea Party. They ran against her. Gun play is a constant theme winding around 'removing the blight and threat from America'. Thats not a case of "exert your right to bear arms" FULL STOP "we need to get rid of these people".

When I said last year that people will be killed, I figured it would be some loner lunatic... not likely a member of an organized 'militia' or any one that brings their assault weapons to a rally.

If anyone with the politics to be here on this board, sees this connection as 'speculative', its because you are making an effort to wave it away.

Example:

Quote:

So, why should I care enough about one random (yup, you heard me) act of violence to start drawing phony self-serving political conclusions about how the Tea Party is evil, Sara Palin is evil, and Obama, well, poor Obama.

It's all nonsense.

[And leaving aside the rhetorical excess that not a word has been said about 'poor Obama,' or that Sarah Palin and the Tea Party is evil. Ruthless, single minded, dangerous, and at least potentially murderous in their targeting, yes, that is the topic after all.]

If you were in the US, you would know that you were in those crosshairs too. Of course the organized and stirred right wing is going to look first to public officials with legislative power.

But on Babble, since the targets were unclean, thats them, and the concern is only for the bystanders. What threat?

Immigration rights activist killed in Yuma, Arizona. Cesar Romero was shot by an unknown gunman as he was speaking to a vigil at a Immigration and Naturalization Services bureau office. Mr. Romero....

And when this happens....

So what is the big fuss? Where was/is the outrage at the people being killed daily in Pakistan and Afghanistan? What threat?

NorthReport

Canadians visit the USA more than any other country, many of us visit the USA on a regular basis, a lot of us have friends and relatives there, the USA is our closest neighbour, and we have more in common with Americans than any other society on the planet. Most Canadians live within 50 miles of the USA. No kidding an incident like this in the USA is going to generate a lot of comments and opinions from Canadians. 

I wonder what Michael Moore has to say, or will have to say, about this very tragic event.

NorthReport

 

Quote:
If a Detroit Muslim put a map on the web w/crosshairs on 20 pols, then 1 of them got shot, where would he b sitting right now? Just asking.

 

 

 

http://www.michaelmoore.com/

Fidel

Unionist wrote:
Who was Lee Oswald influenced by? Richard Nixon's Republicans?... Surely after all these years, there ought to be an answer to some of these questions.

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_Select_Committee_on_Ass... HSCA[/url] concluded in 1979 that:

wiki wrote:
The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that President John F. Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy. The committee was unable to identify the other gunmen or the extent of the conspiracy.

The USA became a military dictatorship in 1947 with the sigining of the National Security Act. JFK was merely a figurehead president of a cosmetic government in Washington D.C.

Maysie Maysie's picture

Okay, where to start.

First, any poster, including Unionist, is entitled to post what they like, within babble policy guidelines. Content of said posts may be on topic or they may be off-topic. As a moderator I like to generally suggest that one sticks to the topic of the thread, and not have posts that indicate that the topic is unworthy and other topics should be talked about instead. But that's me. In that vein, I found most of Unionist's posts here to be baiting, taunting and on the verge of trolling. Even as I take his vaild points to heart, they did not belong in this thread. In my opinion. 

Subsequently, any poster may respond, or choose not to respond, to any other poster. This isn't anyone's responsibility except you, the one doing the posting and writing. 

Second, getting all riled up over what is and isn't paid attention to on babble doesn't make a good topic for discussion. If you want Topic A discussed, start a thread on it. If people want to comment, they will.

Third, there is a difference between rabble (the website) and babble (a discussion board that's a part of rabble). rabble provides news, opinion, progressive commentary from a left-wing anti-oppressive perspective, delivered through a number of different media. But since rabble doesn't have a gajillion writers all over the world, and this incident happened less than 24 hours ago, there's no possible way for rabble to have a story out on this, especially on the weekend. I'm sure there will be articles on rabble about this incident during the upcoming week. 

And lastly, I need to respectfully request that any new thread on the topic of the shootings in Arizona stick to the topic as much as possible. If the topic doesn't interest you, stay out of it.

Closing for length.

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