Future of the Cuban Revolution

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George Victor

trippie wrote:

The people of Cuba are not free. I don't care what level of education they may or may not have, they are not free people.

 

The most basic tenent of Socialism is freedom.

 

Castro is a failure and holding him up to any standard other then that is self delusion.

 

What Castro did in Cuba is not Socialism. He may or may not have an understanding of Marx, that is besides the point. I am not looking for someone to take my freedoms aways just because they have good intensions.

 

We are not talkng about the criminality of America either. That is reserved for a library of literature.

 

Cuba is not a Socialist country. Socialism can not be achieved in one country alone. The Cuban government is a military dictatorship, The economy they set up has failed the people. It is not sustainable as the people there have turned into thieves and tricksters just to eck out a living.

 

This throwback to the "do your own thing" idea of freedom from the 1960s that became the individualism of the present, is what I am on about, Fidel.  The place of the individual for some of "the left."

The phrase turned out to be quite prophetic, and its outcome, quite pathetic.

ygtbk

Snert wrote:

Quote:

How can you ignore Uncle Sam when he and his torture gulags at Guantanamo represent the largest threat to human rights on the island of Cuba?

 

Fidel, I'm not saying you have to ignore Uncle Sam. I'm saying that finger pointing at Uncle Sam in order to take attention away from genuine problems with Cuba is dishonest. It's distraction. I'm not sure what you just don't seem to get about that.

 

That doesn't prevent discussing the U.S. for context, but once that context is provided, one would assume it would then be part of the discussion of Cuba... not a new discussion about the evils of the U.S. instead of discussing Cuba.

 

I know you really, really, really don't ever, ever, ever want to criticize Cuba, but sometimes it's not unreasonable to. It kind of looks a bit fishy when supporters are unable to ever concede that Cuba has problems, or to be obsessive about always pointing out that whatever problem Cuba may have is either the direct fault of the U.S., or else the U.S. has the same problem, only worse.

 

It's hard not to notice that even in this little side discussion, you want to discuss the evils of the U.S. instead. You're making my point for me.

To be fair, Snert, Fidel is not the only Babbler who does this. As you say, "Look, a distraction!" is a pretty common mode of discussion here. You're trying to stay on topic: when people sense that they have no rational leg to stand on, they try to change the subject.

George Victor

To be fair, ygtbk, Fidel's concern for Uncle Sam is legendary. 

Perhaps you could use another example (Snert was earlier wondering at trippie's wanderings, I believe),  and at the same time carry forward a discussion that has indeed wobbled from "future of the Cuban revolution..."

kropotkin1951

ygtbk wrote:

To be fair, Snert, Fidel is not the only Babbler who does this. As you say, "Look, a distraction!" is a pretty common mode of discussion here. You're trying to stay on topic: when people sense that they have no rational leg to stand on, they try to change the subject.

 

Seems like you are ascribing intent to people posts.  That is always a dangerous thing to do IMO. I know that in another thread about BC politics you threw in a post about Ont. provincial politics that seemed to have no relevance to the discussion. Personally I didn't ascribe any intent to derail in your post, just a normal occurrence on babble.  Maybe people just post to post and sometimes what they post is not really on topic but in their minds it was when they posted it. I know I've even posted comments in the wrong thread and had people ascribe bizarre motives to a simple mistake.

ygtbk

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Seems like you are ascribing intent to people posts.  That is always a dangerous thing to do IMO.

I agree. I do it sparingly.

ygtbk

George Victor wrote:

To be fair, ygtbk, Fidel's concern for Uncle Sam is legendary. 

Perhaps you could use another example (Snert was earlier wondering at trippie's wanderings, I believe),  and at the same time carry forward a discussion that has indeed wobbled from "future of the Cuban revolution..."

Good idea. I think that the long-term effect of the Cuban Missle crisis was to make the U.S. extremely wary (some would say paranoid) of Cuba. I don't think that there will be good relations between Cuba and the U.S. until Cuba has definitively renounced communism.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Why not? The United States has "good relations" with China, which has never definitively renounced communism.

When's the USA going to definitively renounce capitalism? That's the real question we should be asking. 

ygtbk

M. Spector wrote:

Why not? The United States has "good relations" with China, which has never definitively renounced communism.

When's the USA going to definitively renounce capitalism? That's the real question we should be asking. 

Cuba's geographically closer. Launch window and all that. As to when the U.S. will renounce capitalism, your guess is as good as mine.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

So, Cuba's a greater military threat to the USA than China is? Interesting theory - NOT!

ygtbk

M. Spector wrote:

So, Cuba's a greater military threat to the USA than China is? Interesting theory - NOT!

I said I thought they were wary (or paranoid). I didn't say I thought they were being totally rational. Sheesh.

George Victor

Cuba always stands as an alternative example to the nations of Latin America.  I hope that it can someday benefit even more by trade with Venezuela and others that find freedom, and guarantee the revolution's continuity by membership in a family of socialist states.

Fidel

ygtbk wrote:

M. Spector wrote:

Why not? The United States has "good relations" with China, which has never definitively renounced communism.

When's the USA going to definitively renounce capitalism? That's the real question we should be asking.

Cuba's geographically closer. Launch window and all that. As to when the U.S. will renounce capitalism, your guess is as good as mine.

I don't know about capitalism, but globalization of capitalism as it stands now is a lie. The American way of life,  as it was centrally planned by US State Dept and US Military planners in the early 1950s, is unsustainable given the realities of peak oil and dwindling world energy supplies from fossil fuels. The American dream of bringing urban conveniences to country living is turning out to be a  environmental oxymoron. We are literally running out of natural gas and cheap fossil fuels in helping that country to prop-up the American dream. Americans will have to choose between electing increasingly crazier politicians who promise them the world in order to maintain their way of life, or they can choose wisely. It looks as if they are choosing the former with recent elections of Republican politicians who will likely expand the blood for oil war agenda into the few Muslim countries left that are not under control of western oil companies and western world neocolonizers.

George Victor

Good thing Cuba does not have too much oil offshore, eh!  :)

Fidel

ygtbk wrote:
I said I thought they were wary (or paranoid). I didn't say I thought they were being totally rational. Sheesh.

Yes, the US Military dictatorship was formed in 1947 with the signing of the National Security Act. Millions of Americans don't trust their own government anymore.

[url=http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=17307]Spying on the lives of Americans: A Multibillion Dollar Bonanza for the Telecoms[/url] America's endless & highly profitable, "War on Terror."

The East German STASI was a small and inefficient operation by comparison

 

trippie

@ Fidel:

 

I was talking about the topic on this thread, it's about the future of the Cuba revolution. It's not about how American Capitalism has made the attempts to establish Socialism impossible. That is for another thread topic. That is what we are talking about.
 
The future of the Castro Nationalist revolution is coming to it's most obvious end. The Death of Castro and his brother is the end of that revolution. The only thing they have managed to do is bring poverty to their people.
 
It's a lesson to the Working class, you can not have Socialism in one country. It will lead to a dictatorship and the Capitalism countries will isolate you. The citizens will live in misery.

trippie

Post # 43

 

You are living in a daydream if you think the working class of Cuba decided to through themselves into further economic turmoil. People form Cuba are not free, they risk their live to escape on makeshift rafts.

 
The government decides everything for them.

Fidel

Yes there surely do exist a number of human rights shitholes in this very hemisphere where people live in grinding poverty and despair all of their miserable lives. Some of them are just a few day's drive from Texas, USA.

There are 30,000 children dying of malnutrition and related diseases around the democratic capitalist world every single day of the year like clockwork. And Cuba's children are not among those children whose destiny it is to ride the capitalist conveyor belt of misery and agonizing death by starvation and preventable diseases.

Cuban children have the right to go to school and to see a doctor on a regular basis unlike the child labourers in Haiti and Guatemala, El Salvador, Belize and Honduras and any other poverty stricken country where cash crop capitalism is the way.

Capitalism is a monumental failure for billions of people. Any system even 50% socialism after vicious and genocidal blockades is worth more than thirdworld capitalism and the misery associated with so many of those basket case countries forced down the capitalist road to serfdom.

Ken Burch

Well, if Raul's going to make the place more capitalist, would it do any harm to allow, at the same time, the formation of independent left groups in Cuba as well, groups that might actually be able to come up with socialist alternatives to the false choice of the command economy or following the Chinese path to market Stalinism?

I can't see how glasnost would harm anything at this point.  Cuba's revolution has never actually benefited from restrictions on political discussion.

There are a lot of good things in the Cuban revolution, but the fixation with preventing open public discussion of what the country should do has never been one of them.

The Revolution needs fresh air and freedom from fear.

 

Fidel

Cuba needs to trade fairly and freely with a continent 90 miles away, Ken. Cuban socialists believe in free trade. The wackos in Miami and Warshington do not, and that's the problem.

trippie

 

When trying to understand what happened in Cuba, you can not live with blinders on. There was never a Socialist revolution in Cuba, it was a nationalist revolution. Just because Castro, the self imposed leader of Cuba, has a very good understanding of Marxist principles, does not mean that he implemented those ideas. Which he didn't.

  There is no working democracy in Cuba, all decisions are formed by the government lead bureaucracy.

 
   No one is counting the USA out of the equation. They are a major factor in the history and future of Cuba. That is why Castro has become such a failure. He thought that he could lead a nationalist revolution, form a government under his interpretation of Marxism and bring prosperity to Cubans. And, as with all other revolutions of the time, lead buy socialist minded people, their biggest mistakes were nationalist tendencies, the underestimation of the bourgeoisie with capitalist ideology.

 
Cuba today is not a workers paradise. It's a workers hell hole.

trippie

Let me state my opinoin more clear.. I don't blame what happend in Cuba on America, I blame Castro for his underestimation of World politics.

 

So what is the future for Cuba? More bad thinking by Castro.

 

And what can Socialist todays Socialist learn form this? Socialism can only come about when the working class of the world become internationalist.

Fidel

Trippie, if you want to see real human rights sewers up close, buy a plane ticket to El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras or even Haiti, a failed nation state under the direct economic tutelage of the USA for decades just 55 miles from Cuba. A real basket case is Haiti, and that's what the fascists want Cuba to look like sans the Castros.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Ken Burch wrote:

... the fixation with preventing open public discussion of what the country should do...

I take it you have better information than Prof. Saney, supra, at #10?

Saney wrote:
In July 2007 a nation-wide consultation and debate (a frequent practice in Cuba) was initiated on the Cuban economy. The planned restructuring of the state sector has been discussed by all the trade unions and mass organizations, in the newspapers, on radio and television. Workers have themselves decided that the measures are necessary to strengthen Cuba's economy upon which they depend for their living, and how they will be implemented.

kropotkin1951

trippie wrote:

Let me state my opinoin more clear.. I don't blame what happend in Cuba on America, I blame Castro for his underestimation of World politics.

The American mid=term election clearly shows that in their democracy the billionaire crooks make all the decisions.  I suppose that is Castro's fault as well. I don't want anyone making all the central economic decisions but if I have to choose between a government that has a structure for input and hedge fund managers making all the decisions while poisoning the political well then I choose Cuba as the lesser of two evils. Not a great model but compared to most countries in the world from America to China their citizens have as much freedom.

Trippie you compare Cuba to your view of perfection not the actual alternative models in the world. It could be better but it is not as bad as Puerto Rico or Haiti the other two countries in the region with the most "western capitalist" influence over the last 60 years and places where their citizens have zero input into decisions.

Roberteh

In my youth, I was more inspired by the National Sandinista Revolution than the Cuban. For I have always found his regime grey and stagnant. Where he lost all credibility was when he made Socialism a dynastic affair - which was evident from the very beginning. I have long come to understanding that for real change to happen, it must come from below - not above. Sadly, most Caudillos never recognize this. Nationalism is not the answer to world's social problems...it might contain them for a while but only an open ended struggle on the social space...that is local and supranational will we ever achieve the world we want to see.

kropotkin1951

Roberteh wrote:

In my youth, I was more inspired by the National Sandinista Revolution than the Cuban. For I have always found his regime grey and stagnant. Where he lost all credibility was when he made Socialism a dynastic affair - which was evident from the very beginning. I have long come to understanding that for real change to happen, it must come from below - not above. Sadly, most Caudillos never recognize this. Nationalism is not the answer to world's social problems...it might contain them for a while but only an open ended struggle on the social space...that is local and supranational will we ever achieve the world we want to see.

Agreed and make no mistake I think that Cuba is far from a workers paradise.  I just think that calling it a police state when you look at the countries within 200 miles of the island is an overblown use of the term.  Its like calling Canada fascist.  Somewhat accurate but overblown.

I have a poster from FACS on my wall.  A historic anomaly since it was a tenth anniversary celebration that I received about the time the evil empire retook control.  

1979-1989 Diez anos de cooperacion con la Solidariadd Internacional.

Ken Burch

Actually, the Revolution was in power until 1990.  It wasn't until then that the U.S. succeeded in getting enough Nicaraguans to surrender by having the embargo starve them and the Contras massacre them.

George Victor

Some people's ideas of freedom are simply a throwback to  bourgeoise youth doing their own thing in the 60s.  Their idea of freedom would be offended by any collectivist project...let alone one at the national level. And they will never endeavour to visit Cuba to attempt to ferret out the truth.  

George Victor

trippie wrote:

Let me state my opinoin more clear.. I don't blame what happend in Cuba on America, I blame Castro for his underestimation of World politics.

 

So what is the future for Cuba? More bad thinking by Castro.

 

And what can Socialist todays Socialist learn form this? Socialism can only come about when the working class of the world become internationalist.

 

Capitalism got 'em first.  They are Globalized.Wink

Fidel

Ken Burch wrote:

Actually, the Revolution was in power until 1990.  It wasn't until then that the U.S. succeeded in getting enough Nicaraguans to surrender by having the embargo starve them and the Contras massacre them.

They made a deal with the Contras back then, the Nicaraguan contras and not Olly North's mercenaries for hire from as far away as Peru, that they would be rewarded with land and set them up in good government jobs, wealthy rancheros etc. It didn't materialize for a lot of them, and Chamorro lost a lot of support. And Lacayo turned out to be another disappointing neoliberal stooge who absconded with millions of the country's finances.

kropotkin1951

Ken Burch wrote:

Actually, the Revolution was in power until 1990.  It wasn't until then that the U.S. succeeded in getting enough Nicaraguans to surrender by having the embargo starve them and the Contras massacre them.

Feb 25 1990 was when they lost that election.  At least give us the date if you are going to nit pick about less than two months.  And try reading for content because the poster either came in late 1989 or early 1990 and then the election happened. 

"A historic anomaly since it was a tenth anniversary celebration that I received about the time the evil empire retook control." 

Ken Burch

No snark intended.  My point was simply that, if the Sandinistas weren't voted out until February 25, 1990(and I still remember the Monday morning after that vote as one of the most singularly depressing days of my life)that a poster celebrating the tenth anniversary of the Revolution that was issued while the Revolution was still in power (and at a time when the party of the Revolution had every reason to assume it would be re-elected in a landslide)was not, in fact, a historic anomaly.

They didn't KNOW the end was near when the poster was printed.

Or else, if it was printed after the people were forced to vote to end the Revolution, it was still a valid tribute, since the Revolution had in fact stayed in power for ten years.

I wasn't slamming you or anything.  Sorry.

kropotkin1951

No slam just a strange nit pick.  To me it is a historic anomaly that I have a poster that celebrates something that ended within months of its issuance. The poster is a stylized map that shows large american jets on the northern border and a ship full of supplies arriving from the International community.  I have the poster because as a BC carpenter I helped my local fill ships with supplies. The poster arrived in late January early February. 

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Maybe Cuban leaders read Rabble?... they seem to have heard you guys.Smile

Cuba announces date for important party congress

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101109/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/cb_cuba_party_congress

Quote:
Cuba will hold a long-delayed, and much-anticipated, Communist Party Congress next April and leaders will use the meeting to chart a new economic future for the island, President Raul Castro announced Monday.

The congress, which last took place in 1997, is traditionally used to announce major policy changes. It is supposed to be held every five years, but has been delayed repeatedly as Cuba grappled with a change in leadership and a deep economic crisis.

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

George Victor wrote:

Good thing Cuba does not have too much oil offshore, eh!  :)

Actually, it does.  I had some discussions a few years ago about it with a Cuban friend that I was visting in Havana.  Chinese and European oil companies are working with the Cubans doing test drilling.

My friend was telling me that the same system that's in Mexico and on the Gulf Coast of the U.S. is also in Cuba.   So, Cuba could eventually become self sufficient in oil...or perhaps even an exporter...and the US conglomerates are being left out in the cold because of their stupid blockade.

George Victor

Yes, the "Not too much" was intended .  For Cuba, those deposits off Brazil  would invite immediate invasion by Uncle Sam. 

 

You think they may have heard us, eh BDC?  Laughing   Well, when I finally get to vacation there, I can remind them about the source of their reforms.  Should be good for conversation over a cuba libra or two, at least. (mas despacio, por favor )

trippie

This thread is not about Haiti or any other place , it is about Cuba and it's revolution. No one on this thread is saying Capitalism had no effect on Cuba.

What I am saying is that Castro had certain ideas of how things would play out. He was wrong and now Cuba is a wasteland were the Government dictates what you can and can not do. Is it better then some? Yes. Is it worse then others? Yes.

It was not the Americans that told Castro how to do things. They reacted to what he did. He never thought that out now did he? No, he had ideas of a Nationalist revolution bringing in his ideas of Socialism. Those ideas fell short, and what was built instead, was a Government dictatorship aligned with Stalin and now moving closer to a capitalist model.

 

Castro is a failure and has done more harm to the idea of Socialism then good.

trippie

Castro should have followed the Swiss. At least that would have been closer to Socialism then what they have now.

kropotkin1951

I didn't know that Cuba had a chance to base its economy on hiding rich peoples money.  So you are saying they should be like the Grand Caymans?  Nice model of high end rollers bringing in wealth they have stolen from workers around the world.  Nice model.

Ken Burch

trippie wrote:

Castro should have followed the Swiss. At least that would have been closer to Socialism then what they have now.

Cuba's banks weren't full of money stolen from Holocaust victims by the Third Reich, so "following the Swiss" wasn't an option.

Snert Snert's picture

Just a guess:  maybe he means Sweden, which is occasionally held up as an example of a country that's somewhat socialist and certainly successful.  I don't think Sweden's good decisions have been predicated on Nazi loot, either, so that could be a bit better way forward.

George Victor

"Castro is a failure and has done more harm to the idea of Socialism then good."

 

 

For a materialist to pronounce about the "idea" of socialism, and not what it has meant for the Cuban people, is about as empty a rhetorical stance as you'll find, anywhere.

 

What bad things has he done to the people of Cuba, trippie? Spare us your fogbound "idea of socialism", just for a mo.

trippie

You now what it's meant for the Cuban people? Years and years of misery. And years and years and more years...of bullshit....

 

Get your head out of the sand. Cuba is no example to follow. It a lesson you learn of what not to do.

 

People don't risk their life trying to escape Cuba to get to Miami, on a few wooden boards roped together crossing open ocean waters, because they want to leave paradise.

 

trippie

Swiss, Sweden, same Social Democrat bullshit, but at least Castro could have held the Americans off better with that model..

trippie

How about food rationing..

You telling me on the entire Island they can't grow enough food for themselves?

They can but they don't.

The people can't even grow their own food on the Socialist Island of Cuba.

Give me a fucking break. There is no socialism there. There is a Government military dictatorship.. Give your head a shake man.

trippie

You now what the number one requiremnt of Socialism is?

 

Rational thinking....

 

The only rational thought one needs about Cuba is to understand that it is a failure. Even Castro has come to the conclusion that his economic ideaas are not working. Stop living in a dream world.

Fidel

Have you ever been to Cuba, tripp'? Guatemala? Honduras? Because I have. And I'm pretty sure that you don't know what you're talking about.

trippie wrote:
Swiss, Sweden, same Social Democrat bullshit, but at least Castro could have held the Americans off better with that model.

And there's a significant difference here. Those countries have been able to trade freely with every other country and without sanctions or genocidal embargoes waged against them since 1960, like the US has done with Cuba.

What are Yanqui imperialists afraid of with Cuba, trippie? Why is it that a nuclear-armed superpower has waged war against so many tiny countries just wanting to practice a little socialism?

[url=http://www.chomsky.info/books/hegemony02.htm]Cuba in the Cross-Hairs: A Near Half-Century of Terror[/url]

trippie

Look Im not defending America.

I blame Castro for the problems in Cuba.It was his revolution and he has controlled the government all this time.

His ideas have lead to the disasters. Socialism can not be formed in one country. He went up against the USA and lost. He sided with Stalin and lost. And the Cuban people have had to bare the brount of it.

I have never been to Cuba, I don't need to go there to understand that the place is not a paradise.Ive had freinds go there, Iv'e heard enough stories, I've listen to many different opinions and observations of the place. I've come to my conclusions. your opinion is just one of the many.

They are not running a Socialist economy there. It's a control economy. People can not spontanously form ideas there. People steel from the government and sell the items out back doors.

I don't like Social Democracies, It's a half way step that keeps the bourgeoisie in control. It's had a 100+ history to prove itself. It has not made the world a better place. Maybe for a few poeple, but their gains are constantly picked away.

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

I guess you've done well for yourself.  Good for you.

 

it's weird how people don't care for others once they've left.

 

Solidarity people.

Fidel

You're not defending Uncle Sam just avoiding discussing him a lot in order to focus on Cuba. But if you're not going to talk about what a shithole Cuba was under the US-backed mafia regime for years a years, even though they they enjoyed full trade between Cuba and the mainland, then how can we make any reasonable comparisons?

What should Cuba look like today as far you're concerned, Trippie?

What would Newfoundland or PEI look like after not being able to export or sell anything to the mainland for 50 years?

[url=http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=13886]An American attorney from Washington visits Cuba for the first time[/url]  Philip Fornaci reflects on his visit to Cuba in recent years

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v697/rabblerabble/Capture-28.gif[/IMG] 

Viva La Revolución 

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