Iran 3

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Sean in Ottawa

Also- the FAA banning flights would have been known to the Iranians. Flying then - would therefore be even more dangerous and while Ukraine is not governed by FAA they could at least avoid the 1-2 hours before dawn known to be the attack window preferred by the US. Any revolutionary guard member manning the anti aircraft would have concluded the chance of a civilian aircraft to be extremely low. The FAA ban came hours before and the Ukrainians would ahve been aware of it. How many of those bans happen a year?

"Several non-US airlines had flights over parts of Iraq and Iran at the time, according to FlightRadar24 data. They are not directly affected by the FAA ban, but foreign carriers and their national regulators typically consider US advice carefully when deciding where to fly."

"Carriers are increasingly taking steps to limit threats to their planes after Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 was shot down in 2014 by a missile over Ukraine, killing all 298 people on board."

https://www.aljazeera.com/ajimpact/faa-bans-flights-iraq-iran-missile-attacks-200108024141437.html

BTW: Iranian people are sharing pictures I have seen of an anti aircraft missile said to have been fired over Iran last night.

Sean in Ottawa

Why would Ukraine of all countries not be aware of accidental downing of jets in a conflict? Staggering incompetence.

If it was an accidental downing (which it is increasingly seeming to be) the ones most responsible are not the ones shooting at what they would not believe to be a civilian plane but the airport and the airline for it taking off.

Canadians who have lost loved ones should consider the implications of that especially given that Ukraine's airlines operate in Canada and probably should be sued for at the very least taking an inexcusable risk..

Sean in Ottawa

NDPP wrote:

Clearly the crash is worthy of its own thread which I have opened up for the purpose thanks.

I could not find it... where is it? Can you link?

NDPP
NDPP

'No Lives Lost': Trump Holds Fire on 'Big Missiles' Talks Peace After Iran's Strikes on US Bases (and vid)

https://on.rt.com/a8mm

"Trump backed away from threatening further strikes against Iran, describing Tehran's stand-down as 'a good thing for all parties concerned.' Trump did, however, vow to impose new economic sanctions on the Islamic Republic, in addition to the thousand or so imposed since the US withdrew from the JCPOA or Iran nuclear deal in 2018.

Iranian FM Mohammed Javad Zarif described the missile attack as a 'proportionate measure' taken in self-defense. Zarif added that Tehran does not intend to escalate the situation further, but would target US allies in the region if Washington responds with force. Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khameini said that the strikes served as a 'slap in the face' for the United States, but were not 'sufficient' to remove 'the corrupting presence of America in the region..."

 

Iran's Attack on US Airbases Not 'Proportionate' - Galloway

https://youtu.be/LgEYr6wUlqE

"Europe has offered mixed responses to the US escalation with Iran. Former UK MP George Galloway provides perspective."

Sean in Ottawa

NDPP wrote:

Ukrainian Boeing 737 crash discussion here:

https://rabble.ca/babble/national-news/trudeau-says-plane-crash-killed-6...

Ok thanks

iyraste1313

Perhaps I am being premature here, but from my readings, especially under the surface, this day may in fact be historic, as I believe that Trump has surrendered given the higher technological capacity of Iran. There can be no doubt that USA/Israel do not have the capacity to defend themselves from the under the radar Iranian missile capacity, as this missile strike has demonstrated. Is this what it takes to guarantee justice? Higher teck capacity?

Whatever the lies of the US adminsitration and its MSM presstitutes, they will now quietly leave the mideast arena,.....

Although perhaps their response was not proportionate, and they in fact may have advised the US before the strike, thus avoiding casualties, the fact that they successfully wiped out so many buildings on the base without any missile defence, surely was a demonstration of their capacity. thankfully Trump was strong enough to see this and surrender, although of course under the canopy of lies....

I predict that this day will go down as historic waning of the US Empire! 

iyraste1313

Perhaps I am being premature here, but from my readings, especially under the surface, this day may in fact be historic, as I believe that Trump has surrendered given the higher technological capacity of Iran. There can be no doubt that USA/Israel do not have the capacity to defend themselves from the under the radar Iranian missile capacity, as this missile strike has demonstrated. Is this what it takes to guarantee justice? Higher teck capacity?

Whatever the lies of the US adminsitration and its MSM presstitutes, they will now quietly leave the mideast arena,.....

Although perhaps their response was not proportionate, and they in fact may have advised the US before the strike, thus avoiding casualties, the fact that they successfully wiped out so many buildings on the base without any missile defence, surely was a demonstration of their capacity. thankfully Trump was strong enough to see this and surrender, although of course under the canopy of lies....

I predict that this day will go down as historic waning of the US Empire! 

jatt_1947 jatt_1947's picture
NDPP

NATO Allies Should Do The Unthinkable And Listen To Donald Trump

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/justin-ling-nato-allies-should-do-the-u...

"...With the tangle of geopolitical variables on the board, the president has hit on an elegant solution for an intractable problem. Can't someone else do it? 'I am going to ask NATO to become much more involved in the Middle East process,' Trump said Wednesday. At first blush, it's a galling pivot for the US president, who has spent his term in office browbeating his military allies for a perceived lack of investment in their own collective defence. Now he's asking for investments to maintain the American-constructed world order. Past the hypocrisy, though, it makes sense..."

'It makes sense for NATO to become more involved in the Mideast. We don't want America continuing to muddle through on its own...'

See where they're going with this? America is increasingly hated and losing in the Middle East, and it's costing them too much to try and keep their failing shit-show together. So now they plan to make their NATO vassal-states 'shoulder more of the burden' in their imperial project. Don't go along with it. Don't let the gangster governments pull it off. Don't let it happen...FUCK NO!

NDPP

Iraqi Fury Over Assassination of Iran's Soleimani & PMF Deputy-Head Al Muhandis

https://youtu.be/Ni-gcYoUr2s

"On this episode of Going Underground, we speak to the former Israeli ambassador to the United States Danny Ayalon about the assassination of Iranian General Qassem Soleimani. He discusses Netanyahu's statements to cabinet calling his assassination a purely American event [methinks the zio doth protest too much]. Next we speak to Iraqi MP Saad al Muttalibi about the Iraqi president's decision to expel US and other foreign forces from Iraq. He discusses the process by which Iraq will expel US and other foreign forces from Iraq..."

NDPP

Unlike the American/Israeli 'bomb the shit out of them the more collateral damage the better' approach...

"It appears the Iranian missiles surgically destroyed the US drones of the type used to assassinate Qasem Soleimani. If so, this could be an excellent example of 'necessity and proportionality' as required in the customary, international law of self-defense."

https://twitter.com/michael_byers/status/1215056690124476416

NDPP

Pompeo's Gulf of Tonkin Incident

https://twitter.com/dancohen3000/status/1215124554407993344

"This is an essential read on how Trump's closest advisors crafted a deception that convinced him to assassinate Soleimani and bring the region to the brink of all out war."

NDPP

Democracy Now: A View From Tehran (and vid)

https://t.co/7FoVnen2lz

"I think the most important message that Iranians were sending to the United States was that we can fire missiles at your bases and you cannot intercept any of them. All of the Iranian missiles went through the American 'defense shield' and reached their targets. So, I think that is an important message because it means all American bases in the Persian Gulf area are vulnerable and all the countries that are hosting American bases are vulnerable too..."

iyraste1313

See where they're going with this? America is increasingly hated and losing in the Middle East, and it's costing them too much to try and keep their failing shit-show together. So now they plan to make their NATO vassal-states 'shoulder more of the burden' in their imperial project. Don't go along with it. Don't let the gangster governments pull it off. Don't let it happen...FUCK NO!....

There must be a red line for ´progressives´ in Canada! No one politically can be supported if they support Canada´s engagement with NATO in the Middle East!

No one vote for any candidate that supports such venture! 

NDPP

Rally: No War With Iran

Saturday, January 11, 2020 at 12:00 PM EST

360 University Ave, Toronto, Across From US Consulate

https://m.facebook.com/events/1089289328124766

(please share widely)

NDPP

Meet the CEOs Cashing in on Trump's Aggression Against Iran

https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/01/09/meet-the-ceos-cashing-in-on-trum...

"CEOs of major US military contractors stand to reap huge windfalls from the escalation of the conflict with Iran. This was evident in the immediate aftermath of the US assassination of a top Iranian military official last week. As soon as the news reached financial markets, these companies' share prices spiked, inflating the value of their executives' stock-based pay. I took a look at how the CEOs at the top five Pentagon contractors were affected by this surge..."

'It's all about the Benjamins.' Ilhan Omar

NDPP

"Professor Noam Chomsky, international law scholar Richard Falk, legendary whistleblower Daniel Ellsberg and dozens of other intellectuals have called on the United States Congress to restrain the reactionary warmongers of the Trump administration...'

https://twitter.com/dimitrilascaris/status/1215266421510418433

 

Why Trump is Escalating the US-Israeli War on Iran

https://t.co/VhqqDG3e8j

"Killing of Qasem Soleimani underscores how US and Israel prefer ISIS to Iran...Support for Trump from the far right is to be expected, but sadly so is tacit support from so-called progressives like Senator Elizabeth Warren and centrists like former VP Biden..."

NDPP

Canada FSWC: Spirit of Hope Speakers React to US Killing of Iran's Qassim Suleimani

https://twitter.com/CanadianFSWC/status/1214299786498719745

'Congratulations to all involved in eliminating Qassem Soleimani. Long in the making, this was a decisive blow against Iran's malign Quds Force activities worldwide. Hope this is the first step to regime change in Tehran.'  - Ambassador John Bolton, Former National Security Advisor, Former Amb to the UN.  On May 25, join us for a provocative evening as our speakers discuss critical global issues like the escalation with Iran...(FSWC is a non-profit humanrights organization committed to countering racism and antisemitism...)

NDPP

Is the Iran Situation A Repeat of Iraq 2003? (and vid)

https://twitter.com/RT_com/status/1215558899555655686

Same Script...

iyraste1313

The president was not asked about the failure of the most advanced US anti-missile systems to intercept the Iranian missiles at Ain Al-Asad. (The second US base targeted by Iran at Irbil in Kurdistan was evacuated some days earlier.)  This could be down to three alternative breakdowns: either the early warning systems did not detect the missiles’ launch from Iran; or the interceptors did not react when the missiles exploded inside the base; or both.

Clearly, in the five months since its missile/drone attack on Saudi oil facilities on Sept. 14, Iran has made further strides in developing the precision of its missiles, whereas the US early warning systems were not correspondingly upgraded.

Iran therefore brought off the first missile attack on US military targets since the Korean War.

The implications for America’s military deterrence are plain, but no less grave are the implications for Israel. The Iranian general stressed that the missile attack on American bases in neighboring Iraq was “only the start of a series of attacks that will take place across the entire region.”
Israel has no illusions about its standing with America on the front line against Iran. And if the US military is short of answers for defense against Iran’s ballistic missiles, Israel whose early warning and anti-missile systems are based on American models is in the same boat.
The Iranian strike on US bases in Iraq on Jan. 8 must serve as an immediate red alert for Israel on what to expect. Instead of telling the Israeli public fairy stories about their country’s non-involvement in the spiraling armed contest between the US and Iran, it would be better for the government to tell the people frankly that Israel is more exposed than ever to Iranian missile aggression.....from Debka

...as stated previous this is a game changer...despite all the bs

Sean in Ottawa

Missile defence systems have been oversold by proponents for the last 30 years being proven again and again to not meet the hype.

NDPP

NDPP wrote:

Rally: No War With Iran

Saturday, January 11, 2020 at 12:00 PM EST

360 University Ave, Toronto, Across From US Consulate

https://m.facebook.com/events/1089289328124766

(please share widely)

NDPP wrote:

Please plan on attending Saturday.

No War on Iran. Canada Out of the Middle East!

NDPP

US Should Have Warned Canada Of Plan To Kill Iranian General, Say Government Sources

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/iran-soleimani-trump-trudeau-iraq-1.542...

"Asked today by host Chris Hall of CBC Radio's The House whether Canada had received any advance notice of the plan to kill Soleimani, Foreign Affairs Minister Francois-Phillipe Champagne said he could not 'go into the specifics of operations or intelligence.*'

In the immediate aftermath of Soleimani's death, Canada recognized the significance of the Americans' action and security officials immediately began gathering information to brief Prime Minister Trudeau, the first source said. The PM was on vacation in Costa Rica at the time. The first source said officials at the highest levels of the Canadian government feared that the act of killing Soleimani threatened to trigger dire consequences in the region. That source stressed however that the event won't fundamentally change the Canada-US relationship. Canada remains fully committed to the principles of the NATO mission in Iraq and continues to share the overall security objectives of the US, the source said..."

* I'll take that as a yes.

Sean in Ottawa

NDPP wrote:

US Should Have Warned Canada Of Plan To Kill Iranian General, Say Government Sources

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/iran-soleimani-trump-trudeau-iraq-1.542...

"Asked today by host Chris Hall of CBC Radio's The House whether Canada had received any advance notice of the plan to kill Soleimani, Foreign Affairs Minister Francois-Phillipe Champagne said he could not 'go into the specifics of operations or intelligence.*'

In the immediate aftermath of Soleimani's death, Canada recognized the significance of the Americans' action and security officials immediately began gathering information to brief Prime Minister Trudeau, the first source said. The PM was on vacation in Costa Rica at the time. The first source said officials at the highest levels of the Canadian government feared that the act of killing Soleimani threatened to trigger dire consequences in the region. That source stressed however that the event won't fundamentally change the Canada-US relationship. Canada remains fully committed to the principles of the NATO mission in Iraq and continues to share the overall security objectives of the US, the source said..."

* I'll take that as a yes.

I have not been that interested in the answer -- sorry to say -- becuase I see no evidence that Canada would have stood up firmly to it. I wish I could think differently and perhaps I am wrong. Canada is not now making a big point of this so why would they if they had been told?

My bigger question is why has Caanda not already advised the Iraqi government that it will comply with the request to leave and provided the outlines of a plan. There are bigger and better questions we need answered than whether we confidentially were told about something we would probably have done nothing about.

Sorry I think we are in general aggreement on most of this - I just do not think this issue is as important. Could be wrong.

NDPP

BREAKING: 'Human Error': Tehran Admits To Shooting Down Ukrainian Plane By Mistake

https://on.rt.com/a8tl

Obviously more to follow...

Sean in Ottawa

NDPP wrote:

BREAKING: 'Human Error': Tehran Admits To Shooting Down Ukrainian Plane By Mistake

https://on.rt.com/a8tl

Obviously more to follow...

I posted this news in the other thread (News section) there I mentionned about it being in Farsi and then gave the link to CBC reporting.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/iran-jetliner-unintentionally-shot-down-1.5423608

NDPP

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

 

US Should Have Warned Canada Of Plan To Kill Iranian General, Say Government Sources

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/iran-soleimani-trump-trudeau-iraq-1.542...

"Asked today by host Chris Hall of CBC Radio's The House whether Canada had received any advance notice of the plan to kill Soleimani, Foreign Affairs Minister Francois-Phillipe Champagne said he could not 'go into the specifics of operations or intelligence.*'

In the immediate aftermath of Soleimani's death, Canada recognized the significance of the Americans' action and security officials immediately began gathering information to brief Prime Minister Trudeau, the first source said. The PM was on vacation in Costa Rica at the time. The first source said officials at the highest levels of the Canadian government feared that the act of killing Soleimani threatened to trigger dire consequences in the region. That source stressed however that the event won't fundamentally change the Canada-US relationship. Canada remains fully committed to the principles of the NATO mission in Iraq and continues to share the overall security objectives of the US, the source said..."

* I'll take that as a yes.

Sean wrote:

My bigger question is why has Caanda not already advised the Iraqi government that it will comply with the request to leave and provided the outlines of a plan.

NDPP wrote:

Probably because America isn't leaving and as a junior member of their coalition they are the masters and we shine their shoes. If Iraqis and other imperial victims want their occupations ended, given the long and demonstrated indifference of citizens in the imperial core to come to their aid, the Nasrallah solution is probably the only one left.

Statement By Morgan Ortagus [US] Spokesperson

https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/1215724853707313153

"America is a force for good in the Middle East. At this time, any delegation sent to Iraq would be dedicated to discussing how to best recommit to our strategic partnership - not to discuss troop withdrawal, but our right, appropriate force posture in the Middle East. Today a NATO delegation is at the State Department to discuss increasing NATO's role in Iraq, in line with the President's desire for burden sharing in all of our collective defense efforts..."

NDPP

Iran did it. : What's Next?

'Bomb Bomb Iran'!'

https://youtu.be/s8hEtI9AI0U

NDPP

NDPP wrote:

 

Rally: No War With Iran

Saturday, January 11, 2020 at 12:00 PM EST

360 University Ave, Toronto, Across From US Consulate

https://m.facebook.com/events/1089289328124766

(please share widely)

NDPP wrote:

Please plan on attending Saturday.

No War on Iran. Canada Out of the Middle East!

NDPP wrote:

CANCELLED. Postponed to January 25th.

NDPP

US & Israel Escalate Middle East Tensions in Wake of Suleiman Assassination

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/01/11/iran-j11.html

"All the developments since Trump's speech from the White House Wednesday have given the lie to the media claims that the US administration is seeking to 'de-escalate' or taking an 'off ramp' from military confrontation. US military provocations are continuing unabated, and the preparations for an all-out war against Iran, threatening to engulf the entire Middle East...are only intensifying."

NDPP

Twitter: 'Khameini.ir 'Temporarily Restricted'

https://twitter.com/AlanRMacleod/status/1215973136623116288

"Twitter justifies not banning Trump [or Netanyahu] for his continual (and very real) threats to commit genocide against multiple nations...But because the US says so, Khameini is gone instantly."

 

Twitter Executive For Middle East is British Army 'Psyops' Officer

https://consortiumnews.com/2019/10/02/twitter-employs-propagandist-as-hi...

NDPP

Canada And the Rest of NATO Should Stay Out of Trump's Rogue Iranian Affair

https://www.ceasefire.ca/canada-and-the-rest-of-nato-should-stay-out-of-...

"We urge Canada to do everything it can to support the UN Secretary General in his call for a peaceful resolution of the USA-Iran confrontation:

'Stop escalation. Exercise maximum restraint. Restart dialogue. Renew international cooperation...It is our common duty to make every effort to avoid a war in the Gulf that the world cannot afford. We must not forget the terrible human suffering caused by war. As always, ordinary people pay the highest price."

 

Petition: Keep Canada Out of Trump's Iran Conflict

https://north99.org/tell-justin-trudeau-to-keep-canada-out-of-trumps-ira...

"Canada must not be dragged into Trump's conflict with Iran under any circumstance. Add your name and tell Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and Foreign Affairs Minister Francois-Phillipe Champagne to keep Canada out of Trump's conflict with Iran."

 

Sean in Ottawa

It is critical that people here do not take a black and white interpretation of this. There is a tendency on this site to whitewash any who are against the US. 

The US is fucking shit when it comes to Iran but so is the Iranian government. There is no good side between those two. For all the Iranians who have died please start listening to them. They do not take sides between the US aggression and its imperialistic policy and the oppressive regime in Iran. We do not have to do this. We do not have to post one sided attacks on the US in the Iranian thread without acknowledgement of that one shitty regime is attacking another and the people are caught in between.

Iran is protesting - Students who are friends, colleagues are protesting. It started as vigils across the country and morphed into huge protests. These people did not plan to protest. Many have not covered their faces in their anger. They are shouting slogans like down with the Islamic Republic by the thousands.

These are the students of the Iranian universities: they include the kids of prominant government people.

Do no insult them by ignoring them or pretending that the Iranian regime is innocent by focusing on one side.

Lots of time to discuss the murderous, aggressive, mitaristic imperial Americans. We can count on the Americans being called out on this site for what they are. But the Iranian regime cannot get away with being seen as a victim here either.

https://en.radiofarda.com/a/protesters-in-tehran-chant-against-khamenei-for-deceiving-public-about-plane-crash/30371951.html

All those saying they feel for the tragedy and the families: avoid this place and this thread from turning into an anti-US agenda. That is only part of it. Make it pro those people becuase nobody is on their side. They are caught between those speaking up for one side or the other between the US and the Iranian government.

The anger in Iran is real. The crimes of the regime are real. Many people have excellent sources. I do to. I know people, many people, from there. These include people who once worked for the government and know it from inside. They include people who want to be proud and sympathetic but who have to call it for what it is. We embarass this place when we allow single sided analysis to dominate. The mainstream media when they blame the Iranian government and praise western action are not better theya re also taking one of the two sides that are involed in this.

Only here is a chance to actually take the side of the poeple against BOTH the US and this murderous government.

That is what that government is. We need to be able to call that out despite the fact that they are ennemis of another government many here want to call out as murderous.

The enemy of my friend is not necessarily my friend. That old adage is false and feeble.

Iranians I know  - they know how bad their government is. They do not appreciate people white washing it to take a shot at the US. they do not like the US either. They would love to put their supreme leader and Trump in a cage along with Clinton and let them kill each other. Let's stop thinking there are innocent parties on any of the power corners here and take the masks off our eyes. at least for the families of lost people let's repsect them by not using this for a political agenda between groups that they hate uniformly and for good reason.

 

kropotkin1951

Iranians need to depose this tyranny just as their ancestors have done through the ages. I remember the 1979 revolution very well. I traveled across Iran in 1972 and when I was in Tehran I got a guided tour of the city by a group of upper class young people. I was appalled when the Islamist's gained complete control over the reigns of government. I often wonder how many of the four or five young people I met survived the purges given only one was an Islamist while the others were communist and socialist in their world views. I hope their children and grand children are successful in getting a new constitution and new leadership.

Canadians need to tell our government to remove all of our military and naval personnel from the region and let's see if peace will break out.

It seems that Iraq and Iran and Syria would all be better off without US/NATO forces being anywhere in the region. Without our presence I don't think they would be warring nations and instead they could cooperate to eliminate the real terrorists.

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Iranians need to depose this tyranny just as their ancestors have done through the ages. I remember the 1979 revolution very well. I traveled across Iran in 1972 and when I was in Tehran I got a guided tour of the city by a group of upper class young people. I was appalled when the Islamist's gained complete control over the reigns of government. I often wonder how many of the four or five young people I met survived the purges given only one was an Islamist while the others were communist and socialist in their world views. I hope their children and grand children are successful in getting a new constitution and new leadership.

Canadians need to tell our government to remove all of our military and naval personnel from the region and let's see if peace will break out.

It seems that Iraq and Iran and Syria would all be better off without US/NATO forces being anywhere in the region. Without our presence I don't think they would be warring nations and instead they could cooperate to eliminate the real terrorists.

I agree with all this. 

We had a family friend who was a photo journalist who went to Iran during the revolution. I remember his stories well. Yes, it was scary at times but he really found Iranians to be a wonderful people.

The person I am speaking about getting information from today lost a relative after the revolution a teenage boy killed by this regime for having pamphlets. When you know them and the stories you can see how easy it is for Iranians to begin the day angry at their government and end it angry at the US. Some on the other hand are also angry that Jimmy Carter did not save the Shah. Many Iranians hate Carter for being so passive as much as they hate other American Presidents for being aggressive. (To one person I reminded them that Carter came to power at a time when the US had just pulled back from VietNam and there was less tolerance for aggression from their government. Reagan restored the desire for the US to be an aggressive power again only a few years later. 

Many were not happy with the Shah but hindsight shows the revolution went badly. There have been moments when it looked like a reasonable government would come and before they were killed there was a possibility after the Shah was deposed that it could happen. Earlier times the Americans did step in to save the Shah but when if they had not, a better government could have come out. The betrayal of Iran by imperialist powers was in 1953 when they overthrew Mohammad Mosaddegh and broke the hearts of the Iranian people.

NDPP

Justin Podur: No War With Iran! (and vid)

https://youtu.be/bmr1NJ17SDs

"Dealing with your pro-war Iran friends..."

NDPP

Michael Hudson: Persian Powerplay

https://michael-hudson.com/2020/01/persian-powerplay/

"...Of course American strategists will deny that the recent actions reflect a deliberate strategy, because their long term strategy is so aggressive and exploitative that it would strike even the American public as being immoral and offensive if they came right out and said it. President Trump is just the taxicab driver taking the passengers he has accepted - Pompeo and VP Pence saying 'Take us to the Rapture,' along with Bolton's proteges and the Iran-derangement syndrome neocons wherever they tell him they want to be driven.

They want to pull a heist, and he's being used as the getaway driver (fully accepting his role). Their plan is to hold onto the main source of their international revenue: Saudi Arabia and the surrounding Near Eastern oil-export surpluses and money. They see the US losing its ability to exploit Russia and China, and look to keep Europe under control by monopolizing key sectors so that it has the power to use sanctions to squeeze countries that resist turning over control and national rentier monopolies to US buyers. [USMCA facilitates this power]

In short, US strategists would like to do to Europe and the Near East just what they did to Russia under Yeltsin: turn over public infrastructure, natural resources and the banking system to US owners relying on US dollar-credit to fund their domestic government spending and private investment. This is basically a resource grab. Suleimani was in the same position as Chile's Allende, Libya's Qaddafi, Iraq's Saddam. The motto is that of Stalin: 'No person, no problem.'

The leading country breaking up US hegemony is obviously the United States itself. That is Trump's major contribution. He is uniting the world in a move towards multi-centrism much more than any ostensibly anti-American could have done. And he is doing it in the name of American patriotism and nationalism - the ultimate Orwellian rhetorical wrapping.

The United States is now turning the screws demanding that other countries sacrifice their growth in order to finance the US unipolar empire. In effect, foreign countries are beginning to respond to the United States...their  message is what do other countries have to gain by remaining in the US unipolar, neoliberalized world, as compared to using their own wealth to build up their own economies..."

NDPP

Israeli Intel Helped the US to Assassinate Soleimani - Report

https://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Israeli-intel-helped-the-US-assassinat...

"Israeli intelligence was instrumental in the successful US assassination of the head of Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) Quds Force, Maj Gen Qasem Soleimani, NBC News reported..."

NDPP

'Your Courage Is Inspiring!' Trump Tweets in Farsi, Backing Iran Protesters Against Tehran Government

https://on.rt.com/a8uz

"The voice of the Iranian people is clear: They are fed up with the regime's lies, corruption, ineptitude and brutality of the IRGC under Khameini's kleptocracy. We stand with the Iranian people who deserve a better future.' - Secretary Pompeo -

Earlier on Saturday, the British ambassador to Iran, Rob Macaine, was briefly detained outside of Amirkabir University in Tehran over his alleged role in 'inciting and directing' anti-government protesters. The UK Foreign Office called it a flagrant violation of international law..."

I hope he brought cookies.

iyraste1313

the complete address by Abdul Mahdi has been made available, which now fills the gaps the West has allowed to support the limited narrative fed to congress......

“This is why I visited China and signed an important agreement with them to undertake the construction instead. Upon my return, Trump called me to ask me to reject this agreement. When I refused, he threatened to unleash huge demonstrations against me that would end my premiership.

Huge demonstrations against me duly materialized and Trump called again to threaten that if I did not comply with his demands, then he would have Marine snipers on tall buildings target protesters and security personnel alike in order to pressure me.

I refused again and handed in my resignation. To this day the Americans insist on us rescinding our deal with the Chinese.

After this, when our Minister of Defense publicly stated that a third party was targeting both protestors and security personnel alike (just as Trump had threatened, he would do), I received a new call from Trump threatening to kill both me and the Minister of Defense if we kept on talking about this “third party”.

I was supposed to meet him [Soleimani] later in the morning when he was killed. He came to deliver a message from Iran in response to the message we had delivered to the Iranians from the Saudis.....

...Is this what is now happening in Iran? If they can´t defeat by force of arms? Nor by sanctions?

Sean in Ottawa

People are now dying at the hands of the government in Iran. Should we really be avoiding that to concentrate on something else now?

Protests erupted out of vigils held by students. Vigils are being held here in Canada as well as there but some on this site seem to want to create fog about what is going on in absolute disresepct to the people who died and those who are struggling to get attention to that. The dead are not the followers of American imperialism and the protest is not some organized thing. These are real people. They are being shot at. Does a majority of the people here give a shit?

Sean in Ottawa

There are many Iranian immigrants, students here in Canada. Perhaps the people posting on this site could take a break and spend a nanosecond with one of them to discuss the vomit being posted here in a thread about Iran. That would be great.

contrarianna

Quote:

It is critical that people here do not take a black and white interpretation of this. There is a tendency on this site to whitewash any who are against the US. 

The US is fucking shit when it comes to Iran but so is the Iranian government. There is no good side between those two.... 

A poor attempt at equivalence between the behaviour of Iran and the US.
Falsely conflating domestic and foreign behaviour is not a matter of "balance" when the topic is the current nation-to-nation conflict. 

That (currently) the semi-theocracy Iran is more authoritarian and repressive of its own population than the US is undeniable. A comparison of Iran/US domestic repression would show the US in a relatively favorable light. 
That I suppose could be a topic, but for this topic it makes as little sense as discussing the US lead role in global climate destruction.

Justice in Iran is a matter for the Iranian people to sort out without foreign interference (which is substantial from other countries especially the US and Israel by way of sanctions, black ops, and direct attacks).

There is no comparison in war making, massive slaughter, war crimes and brutal global imperialism which is dominated by the US. The extreme level of aggression by the US could easily result in global conflagration.
 
Two reasons for focusing on the US in the current US/Iran crises. 

First, the current discussion is about international conflict, not about domestic repression; the accidental shooting down would never have happened if US aggression and assassination and threats make war seem inevitable and put Iran on high alert expecting an attack. The  missile strike may involve punishable criminal incompetence of what Iran called "a disastrous human error". Let's hope the international investigation shows more integrity than other international investigations, such as the proven falsified OPCW Syrian chemical attack report.

The second reason is that Canada is a vassel US state whose foreign policy is integrated despite the pretense of independence.  Canada is inintegrated with the US military, survellience, hegemony, propaganda and it's foreign deployments. It participates in US expansionism regime change operations. Criticism of crimes that the Canadian government is complicit in should be the focus of Canadian critical thought in this crises, not the unrelated domestic behaviour of foreign countries for which we are not responsible.

Criticism of the US is de facto criticism of Canada in foreign affairs.

See:

Why I Don’t Criticize Russia, China, Or Other Unabsorbed Governments
....
3. I have a special responsibility for the evils of the empire in which I live.

When asked in an interview why he spends the bulk of his time criticizing his own government, Noam Chomsky replied:

“My own concern is primarily the terror and violence carried out by my own state, for two reasons. For one thing, because it happens to be the larger component of international violence. But also for a much more important reason than that: namely, I can do something about it. So even if the US was responsible for 2% of the violence in the world instead of the majority of it, it would be that 2% I would be primarily responsible for. And that is a simple ethical judgment. That is, the ethical value of one’s actions depends on their anticipated and predictable consequences. It is very easy to denounce the atrocities of someone else. That has about as much ethical value as denouncing atrocities that took place in the 18th century.”

https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2019/12/30/why-i-dont-criticize-russia-chin...

See also:
The Dominion and The Intellectuals
Noam Chomsky interviewed by an anonymous interviewer

Antosofia, 2003
....
QUESTION: When you talk about the role of intellectuals, you say that the first duty is to concentrate on your own country. Could you explain this assertion?

CHOMSKY: One of the most elementary moral truisms is that you are responsible for the anticipated consequences of your own actions. It is fine to talk about the crimes of Genghis Khan, but there isn’t much that you can do about them. If Soviet intellectuals chose to devote their energies to crimes of the U.S., which they could do nothing about, that is their business. We honor those who recognized that the first duty is to concentrate on your own country. And it is interesting that no one ever asks for an explanation, because in the case of official enemies, truisms are indeed truisms. It is when truisms are applied to ourselves that they become contentious, or even outrageous. But they remain truisms. In fact, the truisms hold far more for us than they did for Soviet dissidents, for the simple reason that we are in free societies, do not face repression, and can have a substantial influence on government policy. So if we adopt truisms, that is where we will focus most of our energy and commitment. The explanation is even more obvious than in the case of official enemies.

Naturally, truisms are hated when applied to oneself. You can see it dramatically in the case of terrorism. In fact one of the reasons why I am considered “public enemy number one” among a large sector of intellectuals in the U.S. is that I mention that the U.S. is one of the major terrorist states in the world and this assertion, though plainly true, is unacceptable for many intellectuals, including left-liberal intellectuals, because if we faced such truths we could do something about the terrorist acts for which we are responsible, accepting elementary moral responsibilities instead of lauding ourselves for denouncing the crimes official enemies, about which we can often do very little.

Elementary honesty is often uncomfortable, in personal life as well, and there are people who make great efforts to evade it. For intellectuals, throughout history, it has often come close to being their vocation. Intellectuals are commonly integrated into dominant institutions. Their privilege and prestige derives from adapting to the interests of power concentrations, often taking a critical look but in very limited ways. For example, one may criticize the war in Vietnam as a “mistake” that began with “benign intentions”. But it goes too far to say that the war is not “a mistake” but was “fundamentally wrong and immoral”. the position of about 70 percent of the public by the late 1960s, persisting until today, but of only a margin of intellectuals. The same is true of terrorism. In acceptable discourse, as can easily be demonstrated, the term is used to refer to terrorist acts that THEY carry out against US, not those that WE carry out against THEM. That is probably close to a historical universal. And there are innumerable other examples.

https://chomsky.info/2003____/ 

.

Sean in Ottawa

contrarianna wrote:

Quote:

It is critical that people here do not take a black and white interpretation of this. There is a tendency on this site to whitewash any who are against the US. 

The US is fucking shit when it comes to Iran but so is the Iranian government. There is no good side between those two.... 

A poor attempt at equivalence between the behaviour of Iran and the US.
Falsely conflating domestic and foreign behaviour is not a matter of "balance" when the topic is the current nation-to-nation conflict. 

[snip]

No, no, and no for all that followed.

I did nt conflate anything. I objected to the stream repetition of Iran state propaganda posted uncritically here. I objected to every comment being posted about the people being followed systematically with one diverted to a political agenda about the US. It is not all about us it is not all about the US. To say it is is the very imperialist message you pretend to be against.

And when you start to make connections you should not stop where it is convenient for your personal agenda. So long as we connect some things to the US as you see some doing here, you can connect the rest as the nature of this government is also in part a reaction. Why can we not discuss without holding back all the consequences including just how awful this government has become? Many aspects of the horrible regime in Iran are related to the pressure they are under but we can only talk about that pressure but not the result. The whole damn government can be said to be a result of the maintenance of the Shah's oppresion in the 1950s.

I disagree that this thread is for the exclusive purpose of discussing your and a few other people's limited agenda and interests. It is to discuss the country - see the title????. Your agenda can even be distracted by details like a bunch of young people getting killed in a plane or on a ground objecting to it  -- at least for a while.

It is disgusting to tell me that the fact that young people are getting killed while protesting other mostly young people getting killed is not relevant so we can discuss the grander issue of US imperialism because a bunch of safe Canaidans who think they mean well have soemthing else they want to discuss. You should be ashamed of that comment but I know many here are shameless.

I made no comparison. I called for allowing comments not to be instantly and purposefully covered with Iranian state propaganda. I have not made any link or connection between what the US did which I have clearly opposed and what the Iranian government is doing that is getting excused, whitewashed and having its point of veiw presented uncritically here. We have shitloads of critical analysis of what the Americans are doing, their responsibility and, becuase it is popular to question Ukraine, that too. But when it comes to questionning a government that is killing its own people many make excuses or refraim from any acknowledgment. This is disgusting and embarassing.

This place is supposed to be anti-oppression. I never read anywhere that is has to be exclusively anti-US oppression. In some cases it is appropriate to discuss more than the same ald argument that is in every thread. 

When you put up something negative about the US here you get a pile of people all hyped up on their correctness who rush to agree, mimic and repeat the comment no matter how old news it is. You put up something current where people are dying but not directly at the hands of the US you get some wierd conspiracy shit like the US, Israel, Canada or NATO did the deed or you get just crickets. There is a serious problem on this site in terms of a lack of balance. If we want to pretend that unlike the rest of the world we care about people and the other places and we respect them -- then show it not just in your opposition to the US but in what they are actually saying and experiencing.

You want to know why this place is dying? Becuase it is no better tha white imperialists to have a bunch of white boys comfortably in Canada having a circle jerk about how much better they are that the US telling people to STFU when they raise anything other than the circle jerk agenda. You know many here are not that dissimelar from the right wing extremists - just that they have a different uniform and flag to follow.

Are we digital footsoldiers in a war between various oppressive nations prefering the ones victimized by the Americans only or do we actually give a shit about the people we are talking about in our agendas?

I do not agree that the only pro people position we must take here is anti-American imperialism. Sometimes we can consider other issues in the world.

There are people we whine about supporting dying while shouting that the their enemy is "not the US it is their own government." Literally -- that is what the people shouting in the streets are saying -- university students angry that their government shot the plane out of the sky.

You don't think they know that the US was aggressive and part of the blame? I have spent a lot of time with Iranians who have been talking about this. Yes, they are furious that Trump did what he did.  But they are not the carboard people that you make them out to be. Everytime people in the world are upset at their current circumstances and plead for held from the US or say they have a worse government -- people here, safe in their armchairs, rush to slander them as dupes or agents of the US. Many people here seem incapable of seeing a more than two dimensional world. They claim all kinds of bullshit but will steamroll over the people's views who they pretend to be helping and only raise them up when they conform to the agenda some appropriately lefty Canadian thinks is urgent.

These students -- who are dying -- (no I am not willing to let you forget that) know their own government reaction will make life worse for them. To them it is more than the imperialism issue: it is life and death - war and peace which is something most of the armchair heroes here know nothing about. they do not feel the need to take sides in the propaganda garbage between their shitty government and the shitty government of the US.

There are other important issues for Iran. You believe in immigration don't you or is that just a slogan? Then admit that there are poeple in Canada who consider that Iran is worth more than another topic for you to spray out your well-worn opinion that nobody on this site disagrees with. There are Canadians who give a shit. They might want to have a place where we can discuss what is going on free from American imperialism but also free from political garbage that seeks to shut down anything but the opinions of some white guys safely in Canada wanting to prove his virtuous anti-Americanism.

The inability to allow for real criticism of the Iranian government here while at the same time still understand the issues of American imperialism without dominating every detail with one single issue is the result of intellectual cowardice.

Let me be blunt: Canada needs a place to discuss things in the context of anti imperialism, in the context of a left persepctive that does not make every conversation just be about American imperialism to the point where nothing else is allowed. When you do this, by saying that we have to debate everything with the same conclusion in every micro part of the conversation drives out all discussions other than your circle jerk (everyone agrees with you anyway despite the accusations of a lack of purity that rhyme with McCartheism). these discussions are driven back to the places dominated by the American perspective. You are killing the thing you pretend to defend.

More moderate left people who also hate American imperialism but want to discuss other issues relevant to people are abandonning this place and they are pretty much homeless on social media now. They can got and get attacked by the trolls on twitter but they cannot discuss anything but the one narrow conversation allowed here.

Fact is I have been raising the deaths but the only interest seems to be an insincere oh that is sad and back to what I want to say about the US. 

This place is suffering becuase it was meant to be a wide space for progressive people to discuss many things from a progressive point of view. It has been taken over by an extreme set of people trying to prove how great they are while driving out most other people who are also left. It is not that dissimilar than those on the right saying that Andrew Scheer was too far left for them and Bernier is the middle. This is the left version of that.

I actually care about what the Iranian community is going through. I actually care about the way Iran is suffering and not as some talking point to prove something else. Maybe some people here could do a better job of pretending that they care as much for those people as they do for their personal talking points about the evilness of Amerika.

Maybe they should turn off the black and white TV and get a colour one where there is more than just a battle between Evil America and glorious socialism going on in the world.

NDPP

Taylor: Will Soleimani's Execution Drag Canada Into A Senseless War?

http://espritdecorps.ca/on-target-4/will-soleimanis-execution-drag-canad...

"Canada has no dog in this fight, and at the end of the day we will have no seat at the table that will plot the future redrawing of the Middle East map. Now that the titans of Iran and the US are rattling their sabres, it's time for Canada to admit that we are in way over our heads and get our troops out of Iraq. Trump's illegal assassination of Soleimani is all the excuse we need to pull out of yet another unwinnable, senseless war."

NDPP

George Galloway - The Mother Of All Talkshows - Ep 30 (and vid)

https://twitter.com/georgegalloway/status/1216433067012681728

Galloway, callers and guests on the Iran Crisis etc. See especially, interview with Dr Marwa Osman @ 1:31:00

NDPP

Just Out: US Defense Secretary Admits Trump Made Up Iran Embassies Threat

https://twitter.com/KimDotcom/status/1216424660176236544

"It's like I told you, Trump killed General Soleimani because of a tweet from Khameini on January 1 and started a chain reaction that killed 236 people."

NDPP

The Assassination of Qasem Suleimani and the Criminalization of US State Policy

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/01/13/pers-j13.html

"...The [NY] Times report presents a picture of a criminal state, in which the most flagrant violations of the law are treated as routine It is a testament to the degree to which US foreign policy has been criminalized after nearly two decades of the 'war on terror'. This normalization of illegality extends to the press. The tone of the Times report is that of an adventure story. There is not a hint of a critical attitude toward the flagrantly criminal character of the actions it describes. The word 'legal' or any variant of it, simply does not appear in the body of the text.

The article makes clear that the Trump administration's motives for murdering Soleimani had nothing to do with a supposedly 'imminent threat' as claimed by White House officials. Rather the US wanted to retaliate against Suleimani for a series of US policy setbacks for which the American state held him responsible.

Among the most revealing elements of the report is the following sentence: 'He [Trump] told some associates that he wanted to preserve the support of Republican hawks in the Senate in the coming impeachment trial'. In other words, if the Times account is true, domestic political calculation played a significant role in this crime.

The contemporary form of 'targeted killing' was pioneered by Israel. In the words of Israeli journalist Rohen Bergman, 'since WWII, Israel has used assassinations and targeted killing more than any other country in the West.' Now the practices of Israel - a pariah state from the standpoint of international law - have been adopted by the world's leading 'Western democracies'..."

NDPP

'Stop Buying Iranian Oil or Face Sanctions': US in Talks With China Over Iran

https://on.rt.com/a8wo

"Washington has managed to 'cut off probably over 95 percent of the oil revenues' of Iran, according to US Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin. 'I sat down with Chinese officials. They flew in a delegation to meet us and the State Department to talk about this. They've cut off all of the state companies from buying oil and we're working closely with them to make sure that they cease all additional oil activities,' Mnuchin said..."

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