Massacre in Gaza: Israeli strikes kill more than 200

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martin dufresne

Thanks for your honesty, Unionist. I didn't feel too good riding hodshod over your lengthy activism on the issue, but I also couldn't stand what I was reading.

Unionist

Luckily my brainfart only lasted a few hours. If you want to know when my awakening came, I suddenly imagined a demo calling for Canada to get out of Afghanistan, and someone saying, "but the Taliban are bad too".

Anyway, back to the thread.

josh

martin dufresne wrote:

It is very convenient to put hate quotes around the words "Jewish lobby" - as if to deny its existence - when it is in fact operating at full spin to detract news media from reporting realistically on the horror.

 

 

The accurate term is "Zionist lobby."  Many Jews are either anti-Zionist or opposed to the course Israel has taken, vis-a-vis the Palestinians, the last 40 years.

Unionist

I agree fully, Josh, but Walt and Mearsheimer used the term "Israel lobby" to peddle their thesis that support for Israeli crimes is not really an "American" thing - it's the "Israel lobby" which has been influencing the U.S. for the past 60 years to act against "its true national interests". The "Isreal lobby", of course, turn out to be rich Jews. I consider that to be: (a) covering up for U.S. imperialist aims and ambitions; (b) thinly-veiled anti-Semitism. I realize, though, that not everyone shares my reading of these two Amerikan skolars.

josh

I'm not sure I understand your point, but the term Israeli lobby is fine.

Cueball Cueball's picture

I think he is adding nuance to the point, by saying that the Israeli Lobby and American imperialism act in a strategic alliance, and that power brokers in Washington perceive that supporting Israel serves the interests of those power brokers, not that US policy is dictated by the "Israeli lobby" as some people suggest. The latter has anti-semitic overtones familiar to those who believe that Jews are running everything.

Unionist

josh wrote:
I'm not sure I understand your point, but the term Israeli lobby is fine.

My point wasn't made clearly. I condemn the "Jewish lobby" terminology, and I agree with you on that.

I wanted to point to the danger of using "Israel lobby". From the Wikipedia entry about Walt and Mearsheimer's book:

Quote:
The authors state that the "core of the Lobby" is "American Jews who make a significant effort in their daily lives to bend U.S. foreign policy so that it advances Israel's interests." They note that "not all Jewish-Americans are part of the Lobby," and that "Jewish-Americans also differ on specific Israeli policies."

It gives me the shivers.

It's Me D

I've been a way from a computer for the last few days and though I was following the Israeli massacre I didn't get to follow babble's coverage; I had looked forward to getting to read it today. I just wanted to thank everyone for this thread, its a great read and the back-and-forth between Unionist and Cueball was actually very good reading. I respect both of your posts a lot and I was a little surprised by Unionist's initial stance but it looks like its all resolved now. Unionist you summed it up so well with,

Unionist wrote:
I suddenly imagined a demo calling for Canada to get
out of Afghanistan, and someone saying, "but the Taliban are bad too".

Which, after being so impressed with your posting history on Afghanistan over the years, is pretty much what I was thinking as I read along upthread.

Anyway thanks again, sorry I don't have anything really to add right now; frankly just getting caught up reading babble has me rather mentally warn out Smile

aka Mycroft

josh wrote:
martin dufresne wrote:

It is very convenient to put hate quotes around the words "Jewish lobby" - as if to deny its existence - when it is in fact operating at full spin to detract news media from reporting realistically on the horror.

 

The accurate term is "Zionist lobby."  Many Jews are either anti-Zionist or opposed to the course Israel has taken, vis-a-vis the Palestinians, the last 40 years.

 

As well, among the most influential elements of the Zionist lobby are evangelical Christians who are far more important and numerous in American politics (and elections) than the subsection of Jews who vote primarily based on what candidates say about Israel.

josh

Yes, that's a good point.  The Christian Zionists are important in the Republican party's unconditional support for Israel.

nonest factum

"The path to sovereignty and nationhood can be accomplished by walking in the steps of Mahatma Gandhi and Dr. King, not Syed Qutb and Osama Bin Laden."

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

What you mean, of course, is that Palestinians should learn to bleed and die quietly like good little victims.

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

How cheap is Palestinian blood? So cheap Zionist politicians readily spill it hoping for nothing more than a bump in the polls:

Quote:
Whether Livni can defeat the right-wing leader at the polls may depend
on whether Israel achieves its objective without incurring heavy
Israeli civilian or military casualties, analysts said.

Both
Livni and Defence Minister Ehud Barak are gambling with their political
careers by launching this attack on Hamas, they said.

This is what Zionist supremacy looks like.

It's Me D

nonest factum wrote:
"The path to sovereignty and nationhood can be accomplished by walking in the steps of Mahatma Gandhi and Dr. King, not Syed Qutb and Osama Bin Laden."

I'm a little confused... are you thinking of a different Dr. King? 

nonest factum

"It is impossible for someone to lie unless he thinks he knows the truth. Producing bullshit requires no such conviction. The bullshitter is neither on the side of the true nor on the side of the false. He does not care whether the things he says describe reality correctly. He just picks them out, or makes them up, to suit his purpose."

Harry G. Frankfurt

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

What a load of bullshit ... Anyway ...

The planet's most impotent and useless body, the Arab League, will be meeting on Wednesday to eat little sandwiches and pretend to have relevance in the affairs of their own nations, according to a Reuters article that also says Ban Ki-moon, the so-called leader of the United Nations, the world's second most impotent and useless body, is ticked. Oh, dear! Has he gone over the top and composed a letter yet?

freeasabird

On our local news at eight am..Global didn't even mention it..they mentioned India, they mentioned a few other places ..no mention..very bizarre..the Globe allowed no comments either.

One wonders!

freeasabird

FM...couldn't agree more..this is about who has the most machismo..Livni or Netanyahu..as they impress the ultra right.

 The Palestinians  of Gaza are cannon fodder in a pen struggling to achieve the will of the majority who voted for them.  We like democracy as long as the "right" side wins..and only then.

 All animals are created equal but some animals are more equal than others.. (rough quote)

 

 

Cueball Cueball's picture

nonest factum wrote:

"The path to sovereignty and nationhood can be accomplished by walking in the steps of Mahatma Gandhi and Dr. King, not Syed Qutb and Osama Bin Laden."

How stupid. The late Dr. Rantisi, one of the founder of Hamas, and Sheik Ahmed Yassin's second lieutenant, and immediate successor, started his political carreer organizing Palestinian tax strikes because he thought is was absurd that Palestinians should pay for their own occupation. It was not effective, and he joined Hamas. In fact, the great majority of Palestinian protest is non-violent, this is why you never hear about it.

If all Palestinians were violent in their opposition to the occupation, the streets of Israel would run with blood. There are after all more that 3 million of them.

But rather than convince you of that, I will pull out this excelent Israeli piece about the "Ghandi Riddle", and Israeli repression of peaceful Palestinian protest to the occupation.

Quote:
"Where is the Palestinian Gandhi?" is a quite popular question, especially abroad. You won't often hear it asked (with the inevitable self-righteous shrug) here in Israel: after all, the Israeli culture itself worships violence, with the semantic field of "war" being the richest in the modern Hebrew language, with militarism as the state religion, and with popular wisdom expressed in rules of thumb such as "where force won't do, try more force."

But Americans love the Gandhi riddle. While their governments give Israel gigantic military aid, private Americans with the best intentions – and Britons such as actor Ben Kingsley – translate the film Gandhi into Arabic and screen it all over the occupied territories as an example for the Palestinians to follow.

The intentions of "the Gandhi Project" must be noble. And though international law and conventions unambiguously acknowledge the right of occupied peoples to use violence against their oppressors – just like guerrilla fighters did under Nazi occupation – the question whether violence or nonviolence serves their cause better is for the Palestinians to decide. There are, of course, several convincing arguments in favor of abandoning the violent resistance, most notably the huge benefits that Israel draws from portraying the Palestinians as "terrorists" to legitimate the use of its overwhelming military superiority against them.

[SNIP]

We've now got a clear confirmation of what Palestinian and Israeli peace activists have been saying all along: the Israeli army would not tolerate a Gandhi-style resistance. Someone up there in the occupation echelons must have studied Ben Kingsley's film long before "the Gandhi Project" got started and reached the conclusion that nonviolent resistance is not in Israel's interest. To thwart this threat, Israel employs soldiers whose task is to turn a peaceful demonstration into a violent one, by infiltrating it undercover and throwing stones at Israeli soldiers. During the demonstration, the army uses these stones as a pretext to break the demonstration by force, using tear gas, salt, or rubber-coated bullets and live ammunition. In the aftermath, this stone-throwing – pictured by army photographers who surely don't miss the stones thrown by their own comrades – enters the world media as propaganda, depicting the peaceful demonstrators as dangerous stone-throwers.

Ran HaCohen -- Letter from Israel

 If you like later, I will show you some film footage of Israel soldiers breaking up an peaceful protest with rubber bullets and tear gas, and shooting protestors in the head with rubber bullets at less than fifty yard range, causing permanent brain damage to (not to mention almost killing)  an Israeli Jew who sympathizes with the Palestinian cause.

But then again, you actually argued tenaciously for 20 or so posts that Michelle Palmer was going to do hard time in Dubai for fucking on the beach, so probably no amount of discussion or evidence will undermine your prejudices.

 

remind remind's picture

New Democrat statement on the situation in the Middle
East

Canada's New Democrats condemn the unacceptable escalation of violence in the
Middle East causing death and injury to so many civilians in the Gaza Strip and
Israel.

It is a tragedy that hundreds of civilians have again become the victims of
violence in this conflict. The continuing airstrikes by Israel on civilians in
the Gaza strip and the ongoing rocket attacks on Israeli civilians are serving
to compound the existing civilian disaster and further harm chances for a
negotiated peace.

We call on the Government of Canada to immediately call for an end to the
aerial bombing of Gaza, the blockade of aid to civilians and the indiscriminate
rocket attacks on Israel. Indeed, the government must urge both sides to agree
to end the current hostilities immediately, reinstate the ceasefire and return
to the peace process.

The Government of Canada should also work to ensure that medical and food aid
is provided to the civilians of Gaza through U.N. agencies.

New Democrats believe that Canada must pursue a balanced approach to the
Middle East crisis, in keeping with Canadians' deep desire for peace in the
Middle East and are ready to work with the new administration in the U.S.
towards a lasting peace in the region. This goal cannot be achieved while
citizens in such large numbers are being killed and endangered.

http://www.ndp.ca/press/new-democrat-statement-on-situation-in-middle-east

 

___________________________________________________________
"watching the tide roll away"

al-Qa'bong

Unionist wrote:

josh wrote:
I'm not sure I understand your point, but the term Israeli lobby is fine.

My point wasn't made clearly. I condemn the "Jewish lobby" terminology, and I agree with you on that.

I wanted to point to the danger of using "Israel lobby". From the Wikipedia entry about Walt and Mearsheimer's book:

Quote:
The authors state that the "core of the Lobby" is "American Jews who make a significant effort in their daily lives to bend U.S. foreign policy so that it advances Israel's interests." They note that "not all Jewish-Americans are part of the Lobby," and that "Jewish-Americans also differ on specific Israeli policies."

It gives me the shivers.

That quote is so selective it could have come from MEMRI, and it's a distortion of what Walt and Meirsheimer wrote.  Not only do they bend over backwards to point out that they don't believe the Israel Lobby is a conspiracy of rich Jews who run everything, they spend a lot of ink on the Christian end-time zealots who are part of the lobby.

 

Anyway, back to the thread topic:

 Disinformation, secrecy and lies: How the Gaza offensive came about

"Sources in the defense establishment said Defense Minister Ehud Barak instructed the Israel Defense Forces to prepare for the operation over six months ago, even as Israel was beginning to negotiate a ceasefire agreement with Hamas. According to the sources, Barak maintained that although the lull would allow Hamas to prepare for a showdown with Israel, the Israeli army needed time to prepare, as well."

 

So much for Hamas' homemade rocket attacks being the provocation for this crime against humanity.

 

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Gee, could the NDP statement have been any weaker? The UN does provide medical and food aid to Gaza when Israeli allows the siege to be lifted long enough for some propaganda points.

Cueball Cueball's picture

remind wrote:

New Democrat statement on the situation in the Middle East

Canada's New Democrats condemn the unacceptable escalation of violence in the Middle East causing death and injury to so many civilians in the Gaza Strip and Israel.

It is a tragedy that hundreds of civilians have again become the victims of violence in this conflict. The continuing airstrikes by Israel on civilians in the Gaza strip and the ongoing rocket attacks on Israeli civilians are serving to compound the existing civilian disaster and further harm chances for a negotiated peace.

We call on the Government of Canada to immediately call for an end to the aerial bombing of Gaza, the blockade of aid to civilians and the indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israel. Indeed, the government must urge both sides to agree to end the current hostilities immediately, reinstate the ceasefire and return to the peace process.

The Government of Canada should also work to ensure that medical and food aid is provided to the civilians of Gaza through U.N. agencies.

New Democrats believe that Canada must pursue a balanced approach to the Middle East crisis, in keeping with Canadians' deep desire for peace in the Middle East and are ready to work with the new administration in the U.S. towards a lasting peace in the region. This goal cannot be achieved while citizens in such large numbers are being killed and endangered.

http://www.ndp.ca/press/new-democrat-statement-on-situation-in-middle-east

Total garbage.

LeighT

CBC at 6-ish:  "Israel has shied away from retaking the entire strip"

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/12/29/gaza-attacks.html

apparently because of possible 'drawn out urban warfare', implying that retaking the entire strip is a goal/threat, esp.if they have over 6k troops amassed on the border.

and rockets from the entrapped aimed now at Ashkelon, desired port of middleman BP gas to be taken from Gaza's offshore marine reserves and sold to Israel.  the telegraph UK reported on this in Nov. 07.

EU and Can/US quiet in cahoots with INOGATE www.inogate.com (nice gas and oil maps) and other current partners.

Webgear

Hey, be nice, it only took around 48 hours to release that statement. A lot of hard work went into it.

 

LeighT

sorry, that was www.inogate.org and related maps are at:

http://www.inogate.org/inogate/en/resources/maps

LeighT

and here the earlier telegraph article, re British Gas,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/3643848/Gaza-doesn't-need-aid-it-has-a-andpound2bn-gas-field.html

likely you folks can find lots of better relevant pieces

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Webgear wrote:

Hey, be nice, it only took around 48 hours to release that statement. A lot of hard work went into it.

 

 

No doubt. It takes quite a bit of effort to write a statement that says essentally nothing while managing to steer clear of  any appearance of having articulated an actual position. The Liberals would be proud.

LeighT

and the Ashkelon link from this,

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/12/2008122994140674153.html

and earlier reports of the role of Ashkelon as an energy hub, can't find them now, much of my old email wiped out, sorry for all the dots

Cueball Cueball's picture

What is says to me is that 1 Israeli life is worth 300 odd Palestinians. This because each statement about the massive airial assault on Gaza, using the most technically advanced ordinance and delivery systems in the world in the hands of one of the most powerful armies in the world is "balanced" against miscelaneous toy rocket launches by unidentifieed Palestinians militants, as if they are similar activities, with simillar consequences.

 To call it mealy-mouthed would be kind. The NDP is fucked.

ceti ceti's picture

The NDP is ducking the issue, because they either are genuinely afraid of Zionist reaction (no small consideration -- even a mild rebuke of Israel elicits a sophisticated and long lasting campaign of vilification and defamation), are too craven to care about Gaza, or actually have individuals within the party pushing the Israeli hardline.

Harper's  bloodthirstiness is to be expected, but anyone with even the slightest sense of remorse or pity is in a tough position, not that that provides any excuses.

 

Cueball Cueball's picture

Craven.

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

[{quote]

"Israel is acting in clear self-defense in response to heinous rocket
attacks from Hamas-controlled Gaza," Hoyer said in a statement issued
by his office this afternoon. "As a sovereign nation, Israel has an
unequivocal right to take action to ensure the security and safety of
her citizens. Indiscriminate attacks by Hamas are a serious detriment
to the peace process in the region.

From Barack O'Bush's party where the audacity of hope has been replaced by the mendacity of empire.

 

remind remind's picture

How about a new thread  here

___________________________________________________________
"watching the tide roll away"

Cueball Cueball's picture

Here you go Nofactum:

Nice footage of some Gandhi's being beaten and gassed. The best part of it is when the IDF boys shoot a tear gas canister into the front door of the ambulance, driving out the injured and their attendants.

Saffa

More Gandhi's being beaten, shot at with rubber bullets and gassed. This one features a nice scene of an arrested person being manhandled by 8 or 10 IOF guys in full combat gear. Not good enough for one of our IOF heros, who takes the opportunity to put the boot in.

What you wont see on your boob-tube

Your heros shooting an unarmed protestor, no where near any soldiers, with live amunition.

Bilin

Similar incident

Why don't you see this shit on the boob tube? Because it's for boobs, like you.

 

martin dufresne

Please do it elsewhere.

punch drunk

you got it

 

 

punch drunk

 
 
 
 

David Grossman / Is Israel too imprisoned in the familiar ceremony of war?

 

 

 

 

After
its severe strike on Gaza, Israel would do well to stop, turn to Hamas'
leaders and say: Until Saturday Israel held its fire in the face of
thousands of Qassams from the Gaza Strip. Now you know how harsh its
response can be. So as not to add to the death and destruction we will
now hold our fire unilaterally and completely for the next 48 hours.
Even if you fire at Israel, we will not respond with renewed fighting.
We will grit our teeth, as we did all through the recent period, and we
will not be dragged into replying with force.

Moreover, we invite interested countries, neighbors near and far,
to mediate between us and you to bring back the cease-fire. If you hold
your fire, we will not renew ours. If you continue firing while we are
practicing restraint, we will respond at the end of this 48 hours, but
even then we will keep the door open to negotiations to renew the
cease-fire, and even on a general and expanded agreement.

That is what Israel should do now. Is it possible, or are we too imprisoned in the familiar ceremony of war?

 
 

 

Until
Saturday, Israel under Ehud Barak's military leadership showed
remarkable cool. It should not lose its cool in the heat of battle. We
should not forget even for a moment that the people of the Gaza Strip
will remain our close neighbors and that sooner or later we will want
to achieve good neighborly relations with them.

The Rest here:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1051008.html

 

 

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Every cold blooded killer has a rationalization.

Let's examine the raitionalization of the apologists of cold blooded murder. Because Palestinians lunch rockets blindly into sparsely populated areas of Israel, Israel has a justification to commit mass murder of Palestinians. Basically, hundreds of eyes for an eye. Understood.

But Israel has herded 1.5 million Palestinians into a sealed ghetto, not unlike Warsaw, where they are starved, brutalized, and denied even the most basic human needs. So applying the Israeli rationalization for mass murder, Palestinians are justified in harvesting the eyes of Israelis for generations to come. But wait! Why are Palestinians ghettoized, dehumanized, and brutalized before being subject to Israel's rationalization for mass murder? Becasue the elected a government, democratically, as was demaned by Israel and her patron, the state brutalizing Iraq, the US. Racists of a feather ...

The worst part of this is why it is taking place. It has nothing to do with rockets. It is because Lvini knows she must parade about in Palestinian blood to have any hope of defeating the monster Bibi. A monster with a baby's nickname.

Imagine, in Israel, it takes being a monster to defeat a monster for the right to oppress and dehumanize a human population. So much to be proud of.

I hope Palestinians are more humane and forgiving than their racist oppressors. The blacks of South Africa where. 

 

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