Kremlingate part 2

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montgomery

All countries work against other countries by messing in the other country's politics. The US has done it and still does it more than Russia ever could. So what!

The Dems think that Mueller is trying to bring down the Repub party and Trump too, but that's wrong. Mueller, who is working in the same interests as their FBI, is trying to force Trump out of the American picture and that's for obvious reasons that have to do with Trump and his slow destruction of the establishment norms. Have Trump resign quietly and preferably see the whole thing fizzle out. And failing that, maybe resorting to the Kennedy solution for Trump.

Destruction of a president and his political party are far from the ideals of Mueller and/or the FBI. Holding up the establishment and it's agenda are the goal. If Mueller can convince Trump to step down after his 4 year term, over the 'threat' of taking Trump down and taking down his kids too, then Mueller will have succeeded. It won't be anything for the Dems to celebrate and that's because Trump can make it appear to be his choice.

A win/win for both parties!

voice of the damned

^ What "establisment norms" do you think Trump is in such flagrant violation of to make "the establishment" so desperate to get rid of him that they would fabricate stuff from whole-cloth to push him from office? He's generally a trash-talking bozo, which may hurt the GOP electorally if it alienates enough people in the groups that he insults and villifies, but otherwise, his policies are more-or-less the standard right-wing agenda, and not much of a threat to anyone's bottom-line.

montgomery

voice of the damned wrote:

^ What "establisment norms" do you think Trump is in such flagrant violation of to make "the establishment" so desperate to get rid of him that they would fabricate stuff from whole-cloth to push him from office? He's generally a trash-talking bozo, which may hurt the GOP electorally if it alienates enough people in the groups that he insults and villifies, but otherwise, his policies are more-or-less the standard right-wing agenda, and not much of a threat to anyone's bottom-line.

I can think of a couple of things quickly offhand: First, I really dislike the US for reasons I'll elaborate on as we go on but even I wouldn't say they are filthy racists to the degree that Trump has promoted. He's brought the pointy hats and bedsheets out of the closets of the south that were moldering away since the 60's.

And then the buddying up to Russia, which none of we socialist leaning people would conedemn if we're thinking straight, but which drives fear and loathing into the hearts and minds of the US establishment!

Why would any NDP'er not think of those two themselves? Why couldn't an NDP'er think of a few more examples of why Trump and his sidekick Bolton must be eliminated soon?

Nuclear war started by Trump against Russia/China/N.Korea bring anything scary to mind?

NDPP

Death of Russiagate: Mueller Team Tied to Mifsud's Network

https://t.co/QLjlkQlXZ8

"...What we are left with is an indication of collusion between factions of the US and UK intelligence community in fabricating evidence of Trump-Russia collusion, a scandal that would have rocked the legacy press to its core, if Western establishment-based media had a spine..."

 

Spy Theories and the White House: Donald Trump as Russian Agent

https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/01/21/spy-theories-and-the-white-house...

"The level of absurdity in US politics has now reached such vertigo inducing levels as to render all manner of things permissible. In the impoverished manic era of Donald Trump, the accusers have mimicked the man they wish to destroy...Ironically enough, the United States is witnessing the tendencies it has encouraged for decades in other states: foster local indignation, suspicion and paranoia, and unleash them against the leader of the day..."

montgomery

NDPP wrote:

Death of Russiagate: Mueller Team Tied to Mifsud's Network

https://t.co/QLjlkQlXZ8

"...What we are left with is an indication of collusion between factions of the US and UK intelligence community in fabricating evidence of Trump-Russia collusion, a scandal that would have rocked the legacy press to its core, if Western establishment-based media had a spine..."

 

Spy Theories and the White House: Donald Trump as Russian Agent

https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/01/21/spy-theories-and-the-white-house...

"The level of absurdity in US politics has now reached such vertigo inducing levels as to render all manner of things permissible. In the impoverished manic era of Donald Trump, the accusers have mimicked the man they wish to destroy...Ironically enough, the United States is witnessing the tendencies it has encouraged for decades in other states: foster local indignation, suspicion and paranoia, and unleash them against the leader of the day..."

I don't think you're reading it right and that's because you aren't acknowledging that Trump is evil trash and he has it coming. But as to the conclusion, I'll give you my view on how it's going to end.

It'll end with a whimper because the FBI/Mueller are more interested in upholding the corrupt establishment than bringing down the R party and by bringing down their pres. So I see the FBI/Mueller telling Trump that his kids are toast if he doesn't step down after his 4 year term. That will be a facesaver for Trump and everybody but the most jaded Dems will be happy. Otherwise, the Kennedy solution may be required. 

Even though it looks to the rest of the world that the US are nothing but a bunch of racist lowlife bums, it's not exactly true for all of them. There are some good ones and they know that their country is in great danger if Trump isn't dealt with soon. 

As to Russia messing in US politics? Of course they did and the US does too, probably more than any other country, with the possible exception of China now. But Trump did more than that and he did it for some different reasons. He's guilty as hell but as I've suggested, we most likely will never learn the truth because of Trump coming to accept the FBI/Mueller's facesaving offer. And then, if they need to whack him Kennedy style, we won't find out either. Same as Kennedy.

NDPP

All US presidents are 'evil trash'.

The Jimmy Dore Show

https://youtu.be/VwuFvE0eskM

"Mueller contradicts Buzzfeed 'Bombshell' Trump story."

montgomery

NDPP wrote:

All US presidents are 'evil trash'.

The Jimmy Dore Show

https://youtu.be/VwuFvE0eskM

"Mueller contradicts Buzzfeed 'Bombshell' Trump story."

Counterspin for those who buy their party's line. It's as if several of Trump's lieutenants haven't pled guilty to crimes and gone to jail already. They must be suggesting that Trump was squeaky clean and above it all. 

I predict the truth or non-truth in the buzzfeed story will be nuanced and be successfully spun either way, according to your politics.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

montgomery wrote:

I predict the truth or non-truth in the buzzfeed story will be nuanced and be successfully spun either way, according to your politics.

I agree with this. The best analysis of the matter that I've seen was by Marcy Wheeler.

montgomery

Michael Moriarity wrote:

montgomery wrote:

I predict the truth or non-truth in the buzzfeed story will be nuanced and be successfully spun either way, according to your politics.

I agree with this. The best analysis of the matter that I've seen was by Marcy Wheeler.

Do you have a link to Marcy's opinion piece?

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

That is a link.

montgomery

Michael Moriarity wrote:

That is a link.

Seems to be the wrong link but I'll read the whole thing if it isn't. I did look up a link to what Marcy Wheeler had to say and watched the vid. I chose the 12 minute one because you hadn't said anything specific about her opinion. Hour and a half videos need some reference to 'what it's all about and the time on the vid we'll hear it. Would you like to state the point on which you think Marcy got it about right?

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

montgomery wrote:

Michael Moriarity wrote:

That is a link.

Seems to be the wrong link but I'll read the whole thing if it isn't. I did look up a link to what Marcy Wheeler had to say and watched the vid. I chose the 12 minute one because you hadn't said anything specific about her opinion. Hour and a half videos need some reference to 'what it's all about and the time on the vid we'll hear it. Would you like to state the point on which you think Marcy got it about right?

Well, the article attempts to explain the conflict between the Buzzfeed story and the denial by Mueller spokesman Peter Carr. She posits that the sources for the story were FBI agents or assistant U.S. Attorneys in the southern district of New York. These are the guys who raided Cohen's office, and prosecuted him for the campaign financing offences for which he got around 3 years in the pen. She spells out in detail how the interests of this office differ from those of Mueller's operation, and weaves it all together into a reasonable explanation for the apparent contradiction.

montgomery

Michael Moriarity wrote:

montgomery wrote:

Michael Moriarity wrote:

That is a link.

Seems to be the wrong link but I'll read the whole thing if it isn't. I did look up a link to what Marcy Wheeler had to say and watched the vid. I chose the 12 minute one because you hadn't said anything specific about her opinion. Hour and a half videos need some reference to 'what it's all about and the time on the vid we'll hear it. Would you like to state the point on which you think Marcy got it about right?

Well, the article attempts to explain the conflict between the Buzzfeed story and the denial by Mueller spokesman Peter Carr. She posits that the sources for the story were FBI agents or assistant U.S. Attorneys in the southern district of New York. These are the guys who raided Cohen's office, and prosecuted him for the campaign financing offences for which he got around 3 years in the pen. She spells out in detail how the interests of this office differ from those of Mueller's operation, and weaves it all together into a reasonable explanation for the apparent contradiction.

Sorry for the delay and the misunderstanding which was mine. I didn't connect Marcy and the empty wheel. But now that I've read it, I like it too! 

So Mueller and the FBI need to do some house cleaning if it's true. 

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

montgomery wrote:

So Mueller and the FBI need to do some house cleaning if it's true. 

In any Imperial administration, there will always be cabals and power struggles. That will never change.

NDPP

The Jimmy Dore Show

https://youtu.be/4LYJSb-h9m8

"FBI admits sabotaging progressive politicians as policy..."

montgomery

NDPP wrote:

The Jimmy Dore Show

https://youtu.be/4LYJSb-h9m8

"FBI admits sabotaging progressive politicians as policy..."

The FBI and the CIA, being what they are, is beside the point on this discussion. This Fox News piece was meant as a defense of Trump and that's irrational be begin with. No rational Canadian should be willing to go that far, even though he/she may be completely anti-establishment.

The FBI/CIA may be working against 'progressives' but that has nothing to do with their work to bring down Trump. Unless one is trying to suggest that Trump is a progressive! 

Progressive? What does the term mean to the Americans? Does the definition fit that which the Democrats have become now? The war party for the sake of taking down Trump? Never fear, the Repubs. haven't given away their ambitions to be the war party. When it's time to bomb Iran both parties will be onside with that.

Check out the story at RT today on Syria's threat to bomb Tel Aviv airport if the UN doesn't demand that the Zionist regime doesn't stop bombing Syria! How's that going to work out?

montgomery

Michael Moriarity wrote:

montgomery wrote:

So Mueller and the FBI need to do some house cleaning if it's true. 

In any Imperial administration, there will always be cabals and power struggles. That will never change.

Please allow me to correct that: 

In any  administration, there will always be cabals and power struggles. That will never change.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Why did you take out the descriptor "imperial" do you not think the US is an imperialist power?

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Why did you take out the descriptor "imperial" do you not think the US is an imperialist power?

Could he be saying any theoretical administration this would apply to -- not just Imperial and also not just American? I did not see the comment as suggesting that the US were not an imperial power but that he felt the rule was universal. It arguably is.

This is something that may go with any power structure -- whether or not it is imperial.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Indeed every organization has human politics that can get nasty. The more power in the organization the larger the struggles are for that power. I thought we were talking about some of the most powerful organizations any empire has produced so I thought the descriptor was very apt.

montgomery

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Indeed every organization has human politics that can get nasty. The more power in the organization the larger the struggles are for that power. I thought we were talking about some of the most powerful organizations any empire has produced so I thought the descriptor was very apt.

I've made my contempt for the US regime under Trump crystal clear! I'll even call it a neo-Nazi regime if it pleases you, because that's what it is. How bloody dare you suggest otherwise by suggesting I purposely left out the word, 'imperial'?

montgomery

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Russiagate was not bullshit. Why should we take one false extreme over the other in this story?

Yes, exactly!

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We can believe both that the Russians were interfering to create instability AND that the US is a global threat to peace AND that the US is the greatest threat to Canada. Why must we assume either side is innocent?

Well stated!

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I do not think that Russians intended to help Trump for his sake. Their interest in him was that he is a force of instability - once they realized this he became an objective of their campaign.

Yes, the Russians saw a possible way out of the phony sanctions placed on them by the US.

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This is not a binary issue: the US is terrible. That the Russians are doing something terrible themselves does not change that. It is not even about which is worse -- why does it matter?

Terrible in that they're fighting against US dirty tricks at least, with turnabout.

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Why does it matter which side the Russians were interfering to help? There are well supported claims that it was all sides -- they were promoting division until they realized just how awful he could be and that he could get elected. The fact that the US has a record of being the state with the greatest level of interference outside since the colonial powers occupied countries does not excuse Russia's tactics.

You can't just suggest 'Russia's tactics', you have to elaborate.

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Even the fact that Russia may have done this due to previous aggression, does not make what Russia did okay. (Russia was turned into a hostile country when it could have turned the other way by the actions of the US, Europe and NATO -- they could have been welcomed when they were trying to engage instead of being attacked and threatened.)

All the evidence I've seen indicates that Russia/Putin haven't reacted in kind to the US. A thorough understanding of what happened in the Crimea and the Ukraine will prove that.

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I know this. But it does not make them not a threat now or excuse what they have done.

I'm prepared to argue the latter.

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The fact that the greatest threat of election interference, and the greatest examples of it come from within, does not make their efforts okay.

I don't really give much of a crap about the US now since I do not consider their electoral process as worth recognition or redeemable, but Canada is also vulnerable. It has to be concerned about threats from within in terms of interference, it has to be concerned about distortions of the process through financing, and it has to be concerned about interference from outside.

Not specific enough to understand, and questionable at best.

Pretending the Russians did not interfere in elections is not good for Canada, just becuase the Russians are not the greatest threat from outside to Canada (that threat comes from the US). The experience with how the Russians did it exposes vulnerabilities. The motive of the Russians is actually less of a threat to Canada than the one from the US.

Yup!

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They were seeking advantage from discord. Certainly the Russians could be a threat to Canada in the next election -- even if it is a much smaller threat than that coming from the US.

the Russians being a threat in our elections is baloney as much as I see it. Although they probably prefer something other than Conservative.

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The threat from the US is also different: The Russians wanted advatnage by creating trouble. The US will likely use some of the same techniques to change the result in order to make the Canadian government more to its liking. What the Russians did may have been dirty but the technique they used against the US, if employed by US actors against Canada, threaten Canada's independence (whatever is left of it).

Election meddling is standard practice now by countries that have the ability to do it. When you speak of Canada losing our independence to the US you have to consider the repercussions of our government refusing their demands. It's not good enough to say what we would do if we were in power. And it's not wise to ignore what the people of Canada would like to see us do. For example, tell the US to take a hike? We might get 30% support?

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Pretending this did not happen is not going to help this. Taking sides is not either -- the techniques were cheap and can be used not just by a country whose leadership is hostile, but by any group within the country or outside.

Sadly, you're right about us taking sides, and that proves my point on us not telling the US to take a hike.

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Canada should be terrified about what the US right wing learned about this and how they might employ what they learned against us. So pretending that it was all bullshit is a very bad idea. Don't even think that the Russians invented this -- the US used this type of tacic before, even if they were offended that it was used against them later. The US has more money, a greater interest, and more groups independent of their government capable of doing this to Canada. Plus Canada is an easier target becuase we are a smaller market.

I would say that you have your ducks lined up pretty well! I would only make some minor amendments to your ideas of Russia/Putin's reactions to US dirty tricks. They continue to bite the bullet and a daily visit to RT.com will show that. And yes, I do understand that it's the state's propaganda arm.

It's difficult to respond and catch every comment in such lengthy posts. More people might try if you can shorten them and make your points over two or three posts. Otherwise, bravo for the most part!