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laine lowe wrote:

WilderMore wrote:

WCG, it was definitely worth it.

Time will tell. Was it worth toppling Saddam Hussein or the Taliban Government? Again, time will tell and so will the witnesses of those who had to live with foreign bombings and firefights.

Time will tell to whom it was worth it.

 

Mike Stirner

"WAR is a crime."

 

No it's not, the very notion of crime is built on the foundation of institutional monopolized violence to begin with, from the classical epoch onward, getover the moralism already.

NDPP

Chavez: 'Let's Pray for Libyan Civilians'

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/195103.html

"Today they dropped I do not know how many bombs,' he regretted. 'The aim of the US [Canada!] and its European allies, who participate in the operation, is to intervene and seize a country and its riches,' he added."

 

NDPP

"...there is a second illusion to which the West has succumbed - the illusion to think that it is still possible to devastate a country and kill its people without legal consequences...In the case of Libya, the violations of international law are countless. NATO, as an organization, is legally responsible for the material and human damage of this war. The law leaves no room for doubt that the organization must pay...In a democracy no one can claim to be innocent of the crimes committed in its name..."

War Propaganda: Libya and the End of Western Illusions  - by Thierry Meyssan

http://www.voltairenet.org/libya-and-the-end-of-Western

Lt. Gen Charles Bouchard, NATO's Canadian commander, and his accomplices in these warcrimes have much to answer for...

Press Conference, Moussa Ibrahim, August 21, 2011 (and video)

http://www.wat.tv/video/libya-press-conference-moussa-41fqd_31wod_.html

"We are saying out loud to the world that Tripoli has been turned into a hell-fire because of NATO's actions. We appeal to the heart of the world.."

 

NDPP

RT: Ninety Percent of Tripoli Under Rebel Control - Celebrations in Green Square (and videos)

http://rt.com/news/tripoli-fights-rebels-shooting-546/

Interviews iwth Lizzie Phelan, Michael Parenti and Canadian journalist Mahdi Nazemroaya, who says:

'I feel that my life is in danger right now'. He told RT the situation on the ground is very dangerous and that his hotel is surrounded by rebel gunmen..'

Please help protect Canadian Mahdi Nazemroaya by contacting the Emergency operations Centre in Ottawa at 00-1-613-996-8885 or send an email to [email protected]

NDPP

NATO Slaugher in Tripoli: 'Operation Mermaid Dawn,'  -  by Thierry Meyssan (and video)

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=26118

"On Saturday evening, at 8 PM, when the hour of Iftar marked the breaking of the Ramadan fast, the NATO Command [under the leadership of Canadian Lt. General Charles Bouchard], launched its 'Operation Mermaid Dawn,' against Libya..."

NDPP

NATO Backed Forces Move into Tripoli  -  by Patrick Martin

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/aug2011/liby-a22.shtml

"The imperialist-sponsored destruction of the Gaddafi regime sets the stage for an explosion of these underlying antagonisms, with horrific consequences for the people of Libya. There are ominous indications that a bloody settling of scores is in preparation in Tripoli.."

West Coast Greeny

NDPP wrote:

NATO Backed Forces Move into Tripoli  -  by Patrick Martin

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/aug2011/liby-a22.shtml

"The imperialist-sponsored destruction of the Gaddafi regime sets the stage for an explosion of these underlying antagonisms, with horrific consequences for the people of Libya. There are ominous indications that a bloody settling of scores is in preparation in Tripoli.."

NTC leader calls for restraint and compassion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UntOmjIx9Zg&feature=player_embedded 

 

 

NDPP

Ah yes, Jibril, another ex Gaddafi  turncoat and the pointman for economic 'liberalization and privatization' - the perfect puppet to lead the West's new  Libyan comprador regime. Unfortunately the rebels' atrocities against Blacks and Libyan army prisoners were videotaped by them as fond mementos and posted to youtube - they give us little hope for 'restraint and compassion' from this quarter. Our own General Bouchard hasn't shown any of that as NATO's mass murdering Canadian powder monkey either. Au contraire.

welder welder's picture

West Coast Greeny wrote:

Rebels have entered the Green Square in Tripoli. Huge celebrations in both Benghazi and Tripoli on al-Jazeera. It's not over, but the end is inevitable now. Libyans are bad ass.

Let's review:
- Benghazi and tens of thousands of freedom fighters have been saved from slaughter.
- One of the world's most oppressive dictators is gone from power forever.
- The US spent $1billion enforcing the no-fly zone, $3 per civilian.
- Civilian casualties from foreign bombs were minimal, despite what [sarcasm]hugely credible[/sarcasm] RussiaToday and globalresearch.com is saying.
- The Gaddafi regime might go on trail at the ICC. 

It's tough for alot of people here to swallow (though I think the majority of people here are on my side), but history will show that this foreign intervention was not only worth it, but was executed very well in general.

Spot on!!!...On all accounts...

Especially the correctly aimed shots at RussiaToday and globalresearch.com...

 

I do find it disconcerting that Col. Mo looks to be headed for Tunisia...They should send him to Scotland along with that other murderous rat who was freed a few years ago...

Fidel

West Coast Greeny wrote:

NDPP wrote:

NATO Backed Forces Move into Tripoli  -  by Patrick Martin

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/aug2011/liby-a22.shtml

"The imperialist-sponsored destruction of the Gaddafi regime sets the stage for an explosion of these underlying antagonisms, with horrific consequences for the people of Libya. There are ominous indications that a bloody settling of scores is in preparation in Tripoli.."

NTC leader calls for restraint and compassion

">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UntOmjIx9Zg&feature=player_embedded [/qu...

If we didn't have such wishy-washy moderation here, I'd complain about pro al-Qa'eda, pro NATO al-Jazeera newz reports nailed up on what used to be a progressive site.

welder welder's picture

Fidel wrote:

NATO & their al-Qaeda Gladio allies terrorizing another oil-rich country.

Score a big one for TOTAL, Occidental, ConocoPhillips, and BP oil companies.

Democracy should really be referred to as Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power. - George

Still misquoting Mussolini and using the patented globalresearch.com phraseology,I see...

Fidel

That's Globalresearch dot CA. It's CANADIAN, you eyedeeot. Go read some more imperialist POV in Jazeera or CNN why don't you.

welder welder's picture

Fidel wrote:

That's Globalresearch dot CA. It's CANADIAN, you eyedeeot. Go read some more imperialist POV in Jazeera or CNN why don't you.

 

Home grown Tin Foil Hatters...

 

I suppose that makes them rrreeeeaaaallllyyyy credible,huh?

 

Laughing

NDPP

South Africa in Talks for Gaddafi Refuge

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/195131.html

"South Africa has started negotiations with Libyan ruler Muammar Gaddafi's camp to offer him a place of refuge.."

Fidel

More credible than a pro NATO newz rag based out of Qatar, an oppressive country run by a US-backed imperialist dictatorship, for sure. But don't let that stop you. You're on a roll with your feeble smears of a real left wing site run by a Canadian economics professor and essays from the likes of Chomsky, McQuaig and, Oh yeah, and here's one from June authored by [url=http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=25378]Murray Dobbin[/url] who sometimes has front page articles on rabble.ca. <- .CA indicates CANADIAN domain as opposed to a commercial dot com site, Benny. Foot in mouth

Carry on.

 

DaveW

 

latest headlines:

"Rebels overrun Libyan capital, population rejoices; Babble site the last holdout"

 

 

 

NDPP

THe BIg Gaddafi  -  by Pepe Escobar

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MH20Ak01.html

"...He had always known why they came to pee on his carpet. Because he didn't hand the Brits, the Frogs or the Yanks the oil concessions they wanted. So now those unspeakable Saudi bastards started propping up these fanatic al-Qaeda-related types - just like they did in Afghanistan in the 1980s.

Western 'banksters' invented an 'alternative' Central Bank - with HSBC's help to rob Libya's money. They also invented a new, to be fully privatized, national oil company, managed by Qatar, to rob Libya's oil...

Blowback will come - and it will be a bitch."

NDPP

Damien McElroy reporting for The Telegraph (Aug 22) says "British and French intelligence officers were said to have played a key role in planning the final rebel assault on Tripoli."

Libya: BBC Reporter Ambushed by Gaddafi Forces (vid)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14613653

"heavy fighting has continued in the Libyan capital.."

close but no cigar

DaveW

NDPP wrote:

Damien McElroy reporting for The Telegraph (Aug 22) says "British and French intelligence officers were said to have played a key role in planning the final rebel assault on Tripoli."

excellent; for once they are doing something entirely justifiable ...

NDPP

'Libya Likely to Become Next Iraq' - Interview with Jeff Steinberg, Executive Intelligence Review (vid)

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/195137.html

"...it is not the result of the outcome of an internal civil-war; it's the result of a NATO-directed invasion and overthrow of a regime and installation of a government that may or may not have a real prospect of survival. What we don't know and what is going to play out in the months ahead is whether or not forces loyal to Gaddafi have decided to go into asymmetric resistance mode.."

DaveW

'Libya Likely to Become Next Iraq' -- that sounds like the least qualified prediction in quite  a while;

the Libyan people are thrilled at the outcome, may peace and prosperity reign ...

contrarianna

Phase I of the war looks nearly over.

Will their be a Phase II?

Quote:

Despite the euphoria, the rebels are divided

By Patrick Cockburn

Monday August 22 2011

....
The Transitional National Council (TNC) in Benghazi is now recognised by more than 30 foreign governments, including the US and Britain, as the government of Libya. But it is by no means clear that it is recognised as such by the rebel militiamen who are in the process of seizing the capital. The rebel fighters in Misrata, who fought so long to defend their city, say privately that they have no intention of obeying orders from the TNC. Their intransigence may not last but it is one sign that the insurgents are deeply divided.

...If Nato put the rebels into power will it continue to have a predominant role on what happens next in Libya? It is worth recalling that Saddam Hussein was unpopular with most Iraqis when he fell in 2003 as were the Taliban in Afghanistan in 2001. But in neither case did this mean that there was an opposition which had the support to replace them. In both countries wars thought to be over burst into flame again. Foreign allies were seen as foreign occupiers....

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/africa/despite-the-euphoria-the-reb...

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

DaveW wrote:

latest headlines:

"Rebels overrun Libyan capital, population rejoices; Babble site the last holdout"

 

Laughing ok, that was fucking funny. Thanks man.

 

On a serious note there are areas of Tripoli that are still under regime control and there still is fighting going on. Some of the hold out areas is ringed by tanks and other armor.

Some even speculate this could be a trap to draw the rebels in to the city were NATO can't bomb their positions as easily... but I kind 'a doubt it. It seems most people in Tripoli are happy he's gone. It's still too early to say this is the end but we are in the end phase.

 

The bottom line is unless Kaddafi's guys pull some amazing hat trick counter attack worthy of being required reading for future generations of up and coming officers he's pretty much fucked.

 

 

 

 

Frmrsldr

Frmrsldr wrote:

"WAR is a crime."

Mike Stirner wrote:

No it's not, the very notion of crime is built on the foundation of institutional monopolized violence to begin with, from the classical epoch onward, getover the moralism already.

That's what people like Niccolo Machiavelli, Benito Mussolini, Hiro Hito, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Pol Pot and yourself believe.

But that's not the actual state of things according to the universal legal and moral principles established at the Nuremberg Trials and by the Nuremberg Principles, The U.N Charter, the Geneva Conventions and all related international and national laws.

War and murder cannot be a universal moral principle because it would lead to a contradiction: If it was morally and legally acceptable/praiseworthy for everyone to commit murder and wage war, then everyone would be dead.

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Frmrsldr wrote:

If it was morally and legally acceptable/praiseworthy for everyone to commit murder and wage war, then everyone would be dead.

No only the weak and pooly armed would be dead...Wink

Frmrsldr

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:

No only the weak and pooly armed would be dead...

Are you sure?

The Vietnamese and Afghans seem to be the rule to the exception.Wink

Mike Stirner

Oh for goodness sake, a critique of the concept of crime or enclosed institutional normative ideas of cohesian does not entail an affinity with death and destruction. All those legal codes of yours are products of institutinal violence grounded in civilization, what part of this do you not understand.

 

Universal and moral principles do not exist.

Frmrsldr

Mike Stirner wrote:

Oh for goodness sake, a critique of the concept of crime or enclosed institutional normative ideas of cohesian does not entail an affinity with death and destruction. All those legal codes of yours are products of institutinal violence grounded in civilization, what part of this do you not understand.

Universal and moral principles do not exist.

When we stop playing with our plastic army men, watching Hollywood war porn movies, reading SGT. Rock comix and stop playing computer war games,

we realize that war and the weapons used to wage war are too advanced that if we don't at least attempt to put a lid on it, we are soon going to 'war' ourselves to extinction.

"Universal and moral principles do not exist" is the rallying cry of the arms industry and those who profit from it.

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

CNN reported last night that NATO had conducted something like 17,600 bombing sorties against Libya and some partners were running out of ammo. Surprised

 ETA: Link

[Updated at 6:03 a.m. ET, 12:03 p.m. in Libya] Since NATO began operations in Libya on March 31, it has conducted a total of 19,877 sorties, including 7,505 strike sorties. NATO is operating under a U.N. Security Council resolution authorizing the use of force to protect Libyan civilians.

NDPP

Gaddafi Forces in Tripoli Counter-Offensive

http://rt.com/news/rebels-gaddafi-capital-tripoli-975/

"There's a feeling the government is luring the rebels in alloweing them to have fun in Green Square and then very well counter-attacking ghem.', Dr Lamb told RT, adding that it looks like the end is near. The situation in Tripoli is chaotic, with few precise details emerging.."

sanizadeh

NDPP wrote:

this evil war against the Libyan people to steal their resources and impose upon them yet another Western criminal, comprador regime.

The intentions and illegal, criminal actions of the western powers should be condemned, but this is mainly an war against a crazy dictator who ruled with iron fist for 40 years. Don't fall into the trap of glorifying a mad fascist like Ghadhafi for that purpose. There are evil on both sides.

NDPP

Live from Tripoli: by Mahdi Darius Nazemroaya (and vid)

Western Media Complicit in NATO's Humanitarian Bloodbath

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=26121

Canadian journalist trapped in deserted hotel in Tripoli

sanizadeh

Hoodeet wrote:

Libya, along with Iran and Venezuela, are the three countries within OPEC who represent national interests over the demands of the industrialized world and the hegemonic powers.  The elimination of Qaddafi is part of the scheme to de-claw OPEC.

As far as Iran is concerned, the above statement is the most ridiculous joke I have heard. Libya too put his oil in the hands ofmultinational companies a few years ago.

Quote:

No one should have the gall to cheer the fall of Tripoli and the destruction of archaelogical sites and the dismantling of a modern socialist state. These would presumably be the same people who cheered for the destruction of Yugoslavia, first through the secession of Croatia and the attack on Serbs, then  the criminal bombing of Belgrade and then through the support of the criminals of the KLA for the secession of Kosovo.

Where are the moderators of these threads?

If they were around, you would have been banned for advocating support for war criminal serb nationalists and against the non-serb people of former Yugoslavia. But hey, who cares about the muslims and Croats, right? I bet you were having a nice drink and cheering when they were being raped and slaughtered by your favourite side. Disgusting racist.

 

 

Durrutix

The imperialist war-mongers cheering on this butchery are every bit as despicable as the people who condoned the invasion of Iraq. 

Comment from Greenwald's blog --

Here's who NATO has recognized as the "government" of Libya:

----------------------------

...The regime with which NATO intends to replace Gaddafi has the most right-wing, reactionary character. The TNC [my note: the rebel force] has drawn up a 14-page “constitutional declaration” in Benghazi, which was shown to AFP. It lays out the foundation for a right-wing Islamist government in Libya. It states, “Libya is a democratic and independent state. The people are the source of authority, Tripoli is the capital, Islam is the religion, and Islamic sharia [traditional law] is the principal source of legislation.”

[My note: This document also gives partial control over Libya to the UAE; we are watching the colonization of a country.]

The document was reportedly written by Islamic activist Mohammed Busidra, who granted an interview to Canada’s Globe and Mail daily on August 5. The paper reported that Busidra is “organizing Libya’s mosques into a political machine. This has made him, in the view of many people here, the figure who will wield the most political power, and likely control the country’s leadership, in the event of the dictator’s demise.”

Busidra presented his vision for an Islamic fundamentalist and pro-imperialist puppet state in Libya. He assured the Globe and Mail that he would “remain favorable toward the West and its governments and oil companies.” The inescapable conclusion is that Libya’s 42 billion barrels of oil will be de-nationalized and seized by Western oil firms.

Busidra also insisted that alcohol and homosexuality should become strictly illegal in Libya, as well as “the praise of any religion other than Islam.” [My note: I have no information on Ghaddafi's attitude toward the gay community. Alcohol has been illegal for decades, from what I can find.]

The Globe and Mail explained, “Mr. Busidra’s network is formidable: it includes the long-banned Muslim Brotherhood; the February 17 Martyrs’ Brigade, which is the largest fighting force among the rebel armies and is led by the influential cleric Ismail Al-Sallabi; the even more popular cleric, Mr. Sallabi’s Doha [Qatar]-based brother SheikhAli Sallabi; and a half-dozen other imams and leaders well known in Libya, including more moderate former members of the long-banned Libyan Islamic Fighting Group. Mr. Busidra’s circle is opposed to the extreme Islam of Al Qaeda and other radical groups.”

The distinction the Globe and Mail makes between members of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG) and Al Qaeda is largely imaginary, however. The LIFG was founded by Libyan veterans of the 1980s Soviet-Afghan war, and thus shares historic ties with Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda grew out of the Maktab Al Khidamat, the group that oversaw international recruitment, funding, and re-supply of Muslim volunteers for this war....

http://tinyurl.com/4xsaqpx

--------------------------------

So we are giving the Libyans "democracy" by turning their country into a client state/colony run by an offshoot of al Qaeda. And along the way, de-nationalizing their bank and oil industry. We also are killing civilians by the dozens, targeting their television and other communication centers, water supply routes, hospitals and houses of worship, and dumping depleted uranium all over the country - not that the US media is covering any of this.
—teri49

--

Again -- He assured the Globe and Mail that he would “remain favorable toward the West and its governments and oil companies.”

I think we can now put to rest the idea that Al-Qaeda is anything but a US-backed entity. Radical Islamist movements have almost invariably been funded, organized and armed by the US and Israel as a bulwark against secular nationalism. When such groups become legitimately independent, as in the case of Hezbollah, they are cut loose; otherwise they remain on the empire's payroll. There are more than 1 billion Muslims on the planet; only a tiny, tiny minority are actually interested in creating Islamist states; yet this minority is given extraordinary influence by the empire. Anything is better than socialist or just plain nationalist states. Great boogeyman to frighten God-fearing Murikans, too.

Durrutix

Another good comment, this from commondreams --

This was about eliminating yet another independent agent in OPEC (Saddam and Gaddafi down; Iran and Venezuela next), about revenge for Gaddafi getting rid of US and NATO presence, for his nationalization of oil and industry, for his refusal (until he was forced to cave in) to adopt the full neoliberal agenda for decades, for his earlier support of Palestine, for his recent leadership seeking to forge African unity in the face of AFRICOM and European countries determined to keep up the proxy wars of attrition and to control resouces. It's about the strategic value of Libya, with its borders on important Maghreb countries and on sub-Saharan countries like Niger with their abundant resources (including uranium, coltan,etc.).

It's about testing a new generation of weapons and fighter planes so India and other potential buyers can see them in action. It's about Canada (here I want to spit in rage) wanting to be like the Big Boys and become a major military force. (A Canadian general has proudly assumed the role of butcher-in-chief for the bombings of Libya, probably with D.U. - the gift that keeps on giving.)
It's about Al Qaeda fighters thirsty for the blood of their former oppressor Gaddafi and for other "infidels", now being accepted as freedom fighters (Afghanistan 1980 redux) and given free-fire support by NATO.

It's about the revenge sought by the tribe of King Ydris, whom Gaddafi deposed in 1969.

It's about privatizing the resources, the infrastructure, health care and education (all free and universal under Gaddafi).

Whatever legitimacy there may be among the rebels must be weighed against the motivation of NATO and of the Islamic extremists, and against the plan to defang OPEC and to stop genuine nationalist movements and any form of socialism-- from Yugoslavia's under Milosevic to Iraq's under Saddam to Libya's..

Anyone who cheers this so-called liberation now will have a rude awakening in the not so distant future.

Polunatic2

So who's the next bowling pin in New World Order lanes? 

Hoodeet

Reply to Sanizadeh - No. 82.

I am a racist - the way most people are racists.  I try to recognize my racism whenever it surfaces and correct my attitudes and my conduct.

In the case of Yugoslavia, however, I think my critique was mistakenly construed as racist.

I was horrified by the atrocities committed during the war of secession -which included Croatia, then Bosnia, then Kosovo- and I have always  condemned the use of rape as a tactic of war.  The killing of men and boys, whether they were combatants or not, was beyond the pale, and I will not accept the accusation that somehow I supported this and other war crimes just because I happen to believe that the west went to war against Milosevic because he would not turn what was left of Yugoslavia over to them but hung on, rather, to whatever principles of socialism he could.

The barbaric ethnic aspect of the conflict was a long-simmering internal problem.  The west (NATO, the US) used it as a convenient rationale for their own  economic agenda they sought to further in the region by further balkanizing Yugoslavia.

Consider:

1)  Croatia seceded with the support and encouragement of Germany and other western powers.  The Croats expelled over 100,000 Serbs from Croatia and then from Croatian-controlled areas of Bosnia.  The Bosnian Serbs responded by activating their own militias and seeking to break away the region of Bosnia where they were in the majority or had political and military control, and join what was left of Yugoslavia - - dominated by Serbia at that point.

2) The ethnic atrocities were pretty much the age-old conflicts surfacing with a literal vengeance.  The Serbs rightly saw the Croats as historical enemies for what they had done to them in WW II - probably as many Serbs as Jews and Roma were tortured and murdered by Croats.  The Muslims in WW II ended up siding with the Croats - one could say for self-preservation, but they were historical enemies of the Serbs from the times of the Ottoman Empire, when Christians were forced to convert to Islam in territory conquered by the Turks.  Kosovo is a remnant of that conflict - Serbia would not let it secede because it was emblematic of the Serbian victory over the Turks.  The fact that the minority Serbs oppressed the majority Muslims in Kosovo is not to be condoned, but when western powers (Canada among them) blitzed civilian targets in Belgrade it was to aid the KLA, a nationalist muslim army made up largely of gangs of thugs.  They now control Kosovo and Kosovo has become a living hell for the Christians who remained, and it has been a transshipment point for drugs and women forced into prostitution. 

3)  There were no major trials of Croatian war criminals after WW II mainly because most if not all the worst offenders were given refuge in western countries, including Canada, the U.S., Chile, Argentina and Bolivia.  Many of the perpetrators were fascists but they were received as anti-communist heroes.  Through the fifties and sixties they conspired to undermine Tito's Yugoslavia, going as far as to plot the bombing of civilian airlines, much as the Cuban exile extremists did with the Cubana flight off Barbados and the Canadian-based opponents of the Indian regime did with the Air India flight.  Once Tito died they worked actively for the secession of Croatia. The first president of the new state was an out-and-out fascist sympathizer who tried to turn the memorial site of the Jasenovac concentration camp into a simple state park.  

4) During the Bosnian conflict, internationalists trained in Afghanistan transferred to fight alongside the Muslim militias against not the Croats but the Serbs.  There is a possibility that the horrendous attack on the  centre of Sarajevo from the hills, which was officially attributed to the Serbs, was actually carried out by Muslim militias.  That has not been disproven - just ignored.

I reject the stupid accusation that somehow I am an anti-Muslim racist because I am aware of the historical roots of the ethnic enmities, and aware also that NATO does not carry out "humanitarian interventions" to save or protect anyone.  Libya is very reminiscent of Yugoslavia in that the war crimes committed by NATO are once again being swept under the carpet; that the leader --cornered through years of sanctions, hostility and threats from real internal enemies-- is demonized as the one dictator in the world who merits a full-blown attack; that the "liberation forces" include gangs of thugs,  extremist fundamentalists trained as internationalists in Afghanistan against the USSR and then against the US, groups with long-standing historical grudges and a thirst for revenge, and nationals who resided for years abroad and came back as "democratic leaders" but with suspicious ties to US or other intelligence services.

If this rationale makes me a racist then congratulations for having added an original --if fanciful and irrational-- contribution to the English language.

 

DaveW

sanizadeh wrote:

NDPP wrote:

this evil war against the Libyan people to steal their resources and impose upon them yet another Western criminal, comprador regime.

The intentions and illegal, criminal actions of the western powers should be condemned, but this is mainly an war against a crazy dictator who ruled with iron fist for 40 years. Don't fall into the trap of glorifying a mad fascist like Ghadhafi for that purpose. There are evil on both sides.

good point;

surely one can say Western policy in Iraq was crazy, yet entirely correct in Libya. Straight lines bend stretching across the globe....

Erik Redburn

Sigh.  No, the attack on Libya was not 'entirely correct' DaveW.   Qaddafi was a dictator.  He wasn't however a 'maddog' as he was suddenly described by the always war hungry mass media.   He was in fact better, in most tangeable terms, than most of the US friendly dictatorships the war hungry media quietly ignores or even supports, push comes to shove.   (ie: Bahrain, Algeria, Kuwait, Thailand, Pakistan, Uzbekistan, Honduras, Dominican Rep, South Korea, China, Hungary, etc)  The attack violated its own mandate when the first bomb fell on the first Libyan tank.  Therefore it's reasonable to assume that the 'liberators' will extract a high price from the Libyan people. Higher probably than Qaddafi did.  After what they/we have done in Iraq and Afghanistan that is unfortunately the most likley result.   My Marxist half brothers are correct on this one point, the United States and its 'satraps' are the greatest threat to world peace and equality right now. The Russian empire fell, so too must the American one.

 

(I did support the NATO intervention in the former former 'republic' of Yugoslavia, and wish the UN had intervened sooner in Rwanda and Sudan -the UN not NATO.  I make no apologies for that)

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

On CNN right now: one of the American oil companies (Marathon) forced out of Libya by Gaddafi is in talks with the NTC to return and get their oil production back up and running.

Erik Redburn

Doesn't take long does it? 

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Frmrsldr wrote:

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:

No only the weak and pooly armed would be dead...

Are you sure?

The Vietnamese and Afghans seem to be the rule to the exception.Wink

 

Positive, the North Vietnamese Army (whom really won the war) and the Taliban are both not weak and are both heavily armed...

Fidel

Durrutix wrote:

Another good comment, this from commondreams --

...

It's about testing a new generation of weapons and fighter planes so India and other potential buyers can see them in action. It's about Canada (here I want to spit in rage) wanting to be like the Big Boys and become a major military force. (A Canadian general has proudly assumed the role of butcher-in-chief for the bombings of Libya, probably with D.U. - the gift that keeps on giving.)
It's about Al Qaeda fighters thirsty for the blood of their former oppressor Gaddafi and for other "infidels", now being accepted as freedom fighters (Afghanistan 1980 redux) and given free-fire support by NATO.

It's about the revenge sought by the tribe of King Ydris, whom Gaddafi deposed in 1969.

It's about privatizing the resources, the infrastructure, health care and education (all free and universal under Gaddafi).

Whatever legitimacy there may be among the rebels must be weighed against the motivation of NATO and of the Islamic extremists, and against the plan to defang OPEC and to stop genuine nationalist movements and any form of socialism-- from Yugoslavia's under Milosevic to Iraq's under Saddam to Libya's..

Anyone who cheers this so-called liberation now will have a rude awakening in the not so distant future.

Exactly! Bang on! 

Except for the part about Milosevic. I am not so sure he was a socialist so much as he was a nationalist. And he was on side with the IMF and neoliberal ideologues by the 1990s while a ruinous economic ideology devastated the former Yugoslavia and created animosity along ethnic divisions and people who normally got along well with one another in the former Yugoslavia. Neoliberalism is about destroying labour rights and labour in general within economies and making whole countries subserviant to and reliant on foreign creditors and the western banking cabal.

But bang on about NATO and Qaeda rebels. Qaeda were allied with NATO countries against the former Yugoslavia. Like European Muslims were, Balkan Muslims were moderately religious before the NATO gang created a militant Islamic base in civil war time Bosnia, Macedonia etc.

 

Frmrsldr

Polunatic2 wrote:

So who's the next bowling pin in New World Order lanes? 

Syria

with the old new one still Iran.

Frmrsldr

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:

Positive, the North Vietnamese Army (whom really won the war) and the Taliban are both not weak and are both heavily armed...

Don't make me laugh.

The Vietnamese were armed with the same weapons the Afghan insurgents are armed with and (are) fought/fighting against the same enemy: the U.S. and modern countries with the strongest militaries in the world.

The mainstay weapons of the Vietnamese were AK-47s, grenades, GPMGs (general purpose machine guns), RPGs and improvized (boobytrap) weapons. The mainstay weapons of the Afghan insurgents are AK-47s, grenades, GPMGs, RPGs and Improvized Explosive Devices (IEDs.)

Ever heard of asymetric warfare - well, the asymitry is tipped in our favor.

Yet here we have the spectacle of advanced industrial countries using modern advanced weapons against 'backwards' pre-industrial countries (Vietnam and Afghanistan) using primitive and much less advanced weapons and tactics - and losing.

Since we lost in Vietnam and are losing in Afghanistan,

I guess you would have to use the pretzel logic that it therefore follows that Vietnam was and Afghanistan is necessarily "not weak and heavily armed."

Their morale was/is definitely better than ours and, unlike us, they were/are convinced of the certainty of victory.

And that makes all the difference.

DaveW

as this thread will close soon for length, I guess we can all just make it unanimous:

congratulations to the brave Libyan people for overthrowing  an insane decades-old dictator and may peace, prosperity and national unity follow your revolution, also next door in Tunisia, the spark for this Arab spring and summer

 

 

NDPP

NATO's Covert Hand Crucial in Rebel Advance on Tripoli (and vid)

http://rt.com/news/nato-help-rebel-tripoli-523/

"If you ask a direct question, whether NATO takes part in the ground operation, or whether major Western forces have taken part in storming Libyan cities, the answer you will get is of course 'no', which is no surprise, Mr Rogozin said. 'They'll nver confirm what is becoming evident to everyone else..."

Rebels Might Redraw Libya's Oil Contracts (and vid)

http://rt.com/news/oil-contracts-libya-russia-645/

"Pierre Guerlain, a professor of political science at the University of Paris, Nanterre, says that no matter who ends up running Libya, the West will get the country's oil."

DaveW

... and also a rousing cheer from Fidel to the dearly departed Mr. Ghadaffi ...

Fidel

DaveW wrote:

as this thread will close soon for length, I guess we can all just make it unanimous:

congratulations to the brave Libyan people for overthrowing  an insane decades-old dictator and may peace, prosperity and national unity follow your revolution, also next door in Tunisia, the spark for this Arab spring and summer

 

So when will al-Qa'eda and their NATO pals be overthrowing corrupt imperialists and NATO-backed military dictatorships in Egypt, Tunisia, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait etc? 

Here's a tip: don't hold your breath. 

Where Qadaffi went wrong was agreeing to release from prison the CIA's and MI6ers Qaeda gladios linked to LIFG as well as LIFG terrorists supported by the "democratic west." Those released from Libyan jails were not reformed nor did they renounce terrorism as part of the deal. The CIA and Brits moved right in and began funding and arming Islamic militants like they did in so many other countries since Afghanistan and Pakistan, former Yugoslavia etc. Terrorists R U.S. gang again.

al-Qa'eda = al-CIA'duh and vice versa

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