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NDPP

MPs To Debate Libyan Mission Extension

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2011/09/26/pol-libya-mission-exten...

"MPs are set to debate a three month extension to Canada's mission in Libya on Monday. The first extension expires Tuesday..."

 

The Top Ten Myths in the War Against Libya

http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/08/31/the-top-ten-myths-in-the-war-agai...

"These top ten myths are some of the most repeated claims by the insurgents, and/or by NATO, European leaders, the Obama administration, the mainstream media, and even the so-called 'International Criminal Court' - the main actors speaking in the war against Libya..."

This is a good one to send to your MP - not that the truth has much relevence to their marching orders apparently..

 

 

NDPP

Who Are the Rebels in Libya?

http://libyasos.blogspot.com/2011/09/who-are-rebels-in-libya.html

"The reply to Who are the rebels in Libya is very simple:

A bunch of traitors and renegades who have sold out to foreign imperialist powers.."

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

Two of your links don't work and this is not a three penny opera.

The first link does work and it is a great description of disaster capitalism in full tilt boogie. 

Quote:

The potential profits are huge. While there are pockets of damage to infrastructure and former Gaddafi command centers, the country is in far better shape than Iraq was after the fall of Saddam. At the same time, Libya needs new investment in everything from schools to services. According to the French business federation, Libya should offer around $200 billion in investment opportunities over the next 10 years. With a population of just over 6 million and Africa's largest oil reserves, it has plenty to spend. Up to $170 billion worth of frozen Gaddafi-era assets alone should help pay for reconstruction.

Here's how companies are playing this new front in the latest scramble for Africa.

...

In the Gaddafi era, just under 50 French firms operated in Libya. In early September, when Paris hosted a symposium about the NTC for entrepreneurs, about 400 executives attended, rushing in and out with briefcases and notepads at the ready.

Attendees included an A-Z of the top names in the Paris CAC-40, law firms, architects, the postal service, wheat companies, printers, tobacco firms, and insurance firms. The meeting, organized by the Franco-Libyan chamber of commerce, was described by Courtaigne, the business lobbyist, as "focused and extremely studious".

6079_Smith_W

Interesting piece in Reuters about the carpetbaggers, as they have been called:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/09/23/us-libya-rebuild-idUKTRE78M1RG2...

Compare that with the situation in the summer of 2010, with 80 companies already privatized, and (contrary to the belief that the banks rushed in after the rebels) paperwork already being drawn up for HSBC to set up shop:

http://blogs.reuters.com/globalinvesting/2010/07/07/libya-a-mixed-bag/

Actually the website from the former Libyan industry ministry is a thing to peruse:

http://www.abc.ly/

At the centre of it all of course, the poorest man in Libya, Muammar Jeremiah Peachum

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/25/libya-gaddafi-spokesman-idUSL5...

6079_Smith_W

Thanks NS. I think I fixed it.

And I agree with your assessment; I didn't post it because I thought it was a good turn of events. The point is that it seems that is the way things were going before the uprising. 

And of course it isn't the Three Penny Opera. That's why I wonder about the spokesperson trying to pass him off as "desert tent Muammar" after the fashion of "log cabin Abe".

And I almost forgot the banking stuff. Spot the difference:

http://www.tradearabia.com/news/bank_182572.html

http://www.foxbusiness.com/industries/2011/09/21/hsbc-to-resume-libya-op...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13552364

NDPP

Libyan Mission Extended in Commons

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2011/09/26/pol-libya-mission-exten...

"MPs voted Monday in support of extending Canada's military mission in Libya by three months, bringing it up to the end of 2011..."

P.O.V: 'Should Canada extend its mission in Libya? (59.89% voted no)

 

"What position to adopt about the genocide of NATO in Libya? Does anyone wish it recorded that under their direction the government of their country supported the monstrous crimes by the United States and their NATO allies?" Fidel Castro

http://rt.com/usa/news/castro-obama-genocide-libya-429/

"Never a large or small country, in this case with only five million inhabitants, was the victim of such a brutal attack by the air force of a militaristic organization with thousands of fighter-bombers, more than 100 submarines, nuclear aircraft carriers and sufficient arsenal to destroy the planet many times over. Our species had never encountered this situation as there had been nothing similar 75 years ago when the Nazi bombers attacked targets in Spain..

Now however, the criminal and discredited NATO will write a beautiful little story about its 'humanitarian' bombing.." Fidel Castro

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

NDPP

1,200 Bodies Buried at Abu Salim Prison. Really?

http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2011/09/1200-bodies-buried-at-abu-sal...

"...the shocking news has already gone out to the world and the unmurmured or nonexistent retraction won't be enough to correct that defect in most people's minds. Already we have 1,200 more victims found, and people will be allowed to keep that hinted closure. After all, it seems like reaffirmation of the justness of the war, by reality itself,

for the 500th time, as if reality were somewhat insecure about the whole deal..."

NDPP

Libya Invasion Planned by NATO Since 2007 With the Support of MI6

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=26804

"Mustafa Abdul-Jalil and Mahmoud Jibril have been paving the way for NATO's conquest since 2007..."

Hoodeet

The NTC and NATO seem to be matching  every NATO massacre with a story of yet another mass grave in one of the regime's prisons. 

Anything coming out of the m.s.m. is suspect for me, now, especially if it involves justifying the war crimes of NATO or a friendly state against an "enemy".   Paranoids aren't necessarily born as such; they're created by reality when it comes to politics. 

Frmrsldr

Hoodeet wrote:

Anything coming out of the m.s.m. is suspect for me, now, especially if it involves justifying the war crimes of NATO or a friendly state against an "enemy". 

Absolutely,

the MSM or more accurately the FCM (Fawning Corporate Media) is simply a tool used for propaganda by the Pentagon, military (Defense Department), arms industry, Big Oil (the corporate component) and government.

Frmrsldr

Faster than you can say "I told you so" the U.S./NATO is preparing to send ground forces to Libya.

Jason Ditz wrote:

According to White House spokesman Jay Carney, the United States is preparing to deploy additional forces on the ground in Libya to "secure conventional arms storage sites" as well as to try to track down missing surface-to-air missiles (SAMs).

... Though weapons of all shapes and sizes were looted, the shoulder-launched SAMs are of particular concern to the US, as they could pose a threat to US warplanes the world over now that they are out of the warehouse and in general circulation.

20,000 is a lot of missiles too. One rights group cautioned that the SAMs coming out of Libya were enough to turn all of northern Africa into a no-fly zone.

http://news.antiwar.com/2011/09/27/white-house-more-deployment-to-libya-...

Poetic justice I'd say.

6079_Smith_W

The NTC has said the Lockerbie bombing case is closed

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/26/us-libya-lockerbie-idUSTRE78P1...

NDPP

The Battle for Libya Rages On While Imperialists Rush to Legitimize Rebels

http://panafricannews.blogspot.com/2011/09/battle-for-libya-rages-on-whi...

"Anti-war and social justice organizations inside the US and other NATO countries must demand that all foreign military forces be withdrawn from Libyan territory and its waterways. In addition, it is essential that the racist persecution of Black Libyans and Africans in general be immediately halted.

The developments in Libya illustrate that there is no such thing as a good imperialist war of aggression and occupation. The aim of imperialism is to subjugate the masses in Libya in order to steal their resources and labor.."

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

[url=http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/csis-questioned-canadian-in... exposes cosy relationship of CSIS with Qaddafi's torturers[/url]

Quote:
Canadian spies teamed up with the Gadhafi regime to question a Canadian jailed in Libya, a prominent human-rights group says.

Canadian Security Intelligence Service officers travelled to Libya several times to interview the prisoner between 2002 and 2005, Human Rights Watch says. The New York-based group will circulate a statement on Wednesday revealing that it has obtained documents on this obscure case from an abandoned intelligence complex in Tripoli.

Mustafa Krer, 56, immigrated to Canada from Libya in the 1990s. He was jailed as a terrorism suspect when he returned to his homeland almost a decade ago. Released only last year, he hopes to return to Canada in coming months.

He maintains that [b]Western intelligence agencies, including CSIS, came to put questions to him after the Libyans locked him up in 2002. “Seven Canadians and seven Libyans – I was there, and they did it together,”[/b] he is quoted as saying in a Human Rights Watch statement. He says he was tortured by Libyan guards when no outsiders were looking.

This account is “deeply troubling,” said Andrea Prasow, a lawyer for the group. [b]“CSIS did not torture Krer, but they must have known the Libyans probably did.”[/b]

CSIS has long insisted it neither arranges arrests nor condones torture. It defends its partnerships with foreign spy services, even ones controlled by repressive dictators, as necessary to save Canadian lives.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:

The NTC has said the Lockerbie bombing case is closed

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/26/us-libya-lockerbie-idUSTRE78P1...

Did you even read the article? It doesn't sound closed to me:

Quote:
Libya's interim justice minister Mohammed al-Alagi turned them down, telling reporters: "The case is closed."

But the Foreign Office in London said it had talked with the NTC late on Monday and it had promised continued cooperation.

"NTC chairman Mustafa Abdul Jalil has already assured the prime minister that the Libyan authorities will cooperate with the UK in this and other ongoing investigations," a Foreign Office spokesman said.

6079_Smith_W

Yes M. Spector. I read the article. 

What it sounds like to me a misunderstanding, or lies. 

That quote (from a British government spokesperson, not a Libyan one) says that ongoing cooperation was assured.

But in the story's lede and in the paragraph just before that quote it clearly states that the NTC will not provide any more evidence - including on Gadaffi. As a matter of fact the whole point of the story centres around the council's refusal

That does not sound like cooperation to me. Clearly someone is either trying to smear, or did not get the memo.

 

Frmrsldr

Hmm, let's see:

Western governments hold billions of dollars in frozen Libyan assets.

The NTC is in desperate need of those funds.

Yeah, I think our little NTC installed puppets are going to do exactly what we want very shortly.

NDPP

NATO's Ethnic-Cleansing Rebels in Libya

http://libyasos.blogspot.com/2011/09/genocide-racism-ethic-cleasing-of.html

"...The main town of the Tawergha region, Tawergha, was a town of an estimated 31,250 people. It has been emptied of its entire population: its people having either been killed or fled. Areas of Misrata occupied by the Tawargha have also been ethnically cleansed.

Along the road that leads into Tawargha, the Misurata Brigade has painted a slogan. It says, 'The Brigade for Purging Slaves and Black Skin'.

'Libya is a lesson in what the international community can achieve when we stand together as one,' said President Obama."

 

6079_Smith_W

@ NDPP

On a similar note, I saw a BBC photo gallery a few weeks ago of graffiti in Tripoli. There were a number of cartoons of Gadaffi, one of them with a star of David on his hat. 

So yes, it seems there is an appeal to racism and xenophobia on a number of fronts.

 

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Would a cartoon image of Stephen Harper with a Star of David on his hat be an example of racism and xenophobia (given that the Star of David is as much a symbol of the state of Israel as the Maple Leaf is of Canada)?

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Yes M. Spector. I read the article.

What it sounds like to me a misunderstanding, or lies.

That quote (from a British government spokesperson, not a Libyan one) says that ongoing cooperation was assured.

But in the story's lede and in the paragraph just before that quote it clearly states that the NTC will not provide any more evidence - including on Gadaffi. As a matter of fact the whole point of the story centres around the council's refusal

That does not sound like cooperation to me. Clearly someone is either trying to smear, or did not get the memo.

Read it again and note the timeline:

1. Scottish prosecutors ask the NTC to give them access to papers or witnesses that could implicate more suspects.

2. Libya's interim leaders say on Monday that Tripoli will not release more evidence that could lead to others being charged.

3. [b]Late on Monday[/b] the British Foreign Office talks with the NTC and the NTC promises continued co-operation.

4. Also [b]late on Monday[/b] a spokesman for the Foreign Office says, "Having spoken with the NTC this [Monday] evening, we understand that this [co-operation agreement] remains the case. The police investigation into the Lockerbie bombing remains open."

First Tripoli refused to co-operate, but then they relented when the Foreign Office called. What's so hard to understand about that?

6079_Smith_W

M. Spector

I would say yes, because many of those who are susceptible to that propaganda don't make that distinction between state, race and belief - especially when it comes to a symbol which has both political and cultural meaning.

But the bottom line is - it is an unfair attempt to smear Gadaffi. I can only guess at the motive, or who might have been responsible.

Gadaffi did not represent the interests of the State of Israel, so regardless of its meaning, it is still an inaccurate smear.

 

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

To you, the phrase "the bottom line is..." seems to mean "forget what I said before and read this instead...".

First you say it's an appeal to racism and xenophobia and then you say it's an "unfair" or "inaccurate" attempt to smear. Those are two very different statements.

As for the substance of your objection to associating Qaddafi with Israel, there is certainly [url=http://my.firedoglake.com/edwardteller/2011/03/03/israeli-company-hires-... of Israeli mercenaries being used to help Qaddafi suppress the rebels[/url], as well as good reason to believe that Israel itself regarded the fall of Qaddafi as a [url=http://www.tlaxcala-int.org/article.asp?reference=4240]"strategic danger"[/url] for Israel.

 

6079_Smith_W

Gee, it's hard to pick your horses without a racing card. 

No, M. Spector. "The bottom line" means my most important point. It does not imply a contradiction, nor that anything else I said was wrong or irrelevant.

Regardless of what I think of Gadaffi in other respects, he is somewhat more than just a tool for the Israelis. I think for his opponents to use that kind of propaganda and imagery  is self-serving, and appealing to negative emotions. It is the politics of hatred, and not to imply that I think criticism of Israel is racism (I DO NOT believe that) but I think there is a potential xenophobic element to using that symbol so indiscriminately.

 

 

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

It's graffiti scribbled on a wall, and I think it's fair comment.

Appealing to "negative emotions" is hardly unusual in a civil war against a hated ruler.

 

6079_Smith_W

Yes M. Spector, but I have noticed not everyone hates him, and I find this a bit odd, since I am hardly his most ardent supporter here. I am used to drawing lightning from the other side of this argument; I really didn't expect to get it from both sides.

But on the question, I do see it as playing to xenophobia. I have plenty of criticisms of Stephen Harper, and I might see some justification for calling him an American tool, but it is hardly the most sophisticated criticism of his actions, and one which really just plays to some peoples' hatred of Americans.

(edit)

As well, I expect for some it is more than just a valid criticism, but also playing into their own beliefs by whipping up hatred of anything foreign, similar to the campaign against migrant workers.

 

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

You don't think it's a "sophisticated" criticism of Harper to put stars and stripes on his hat in, say, an editorial cartoon? Assuming you're right about that, is anything short of "sophisticated" criticism to be denounced by "progressives"?

And don't you think it's pretty [b]unsophisticated[/b] to assume that criticism of Harper for being too closely allied with U.S. interests is simply playing to hatred of Americans? Wouldn't a more sophisticated point of view consider it a legitimate political point to make about Canada's relationship as junior partner to U.S. imperialism — even if "not everyone hates" Harper?

There will always be [b]right-wing apologists[/b] who will try to dismiss such critiques as mindless "anti-Americanism", but one would be entitled to expect a more sophisticated and sympathetic view of such a critique from those who have any inkling of the vicious nature of U.S. imperialism.

Just as one would expect that calling Stephen Harper the greatest friend of Israel outside of Israel itself would be taken by progressive persons as responsible criticism, rather than being dismissed as playing to "some people's" hatreds. 

6079_Smith_W

M. Spector wrote:
There will always be [b]right-wing apologists[/b] who will try to dismiss such critiques as mindless "anti-Americanism".

Some criticism of that sort is - though not mindless - I would say it is calculated to play into the mindless xenophobia of others. Never a good motive, IMO.

And I don't think one is necessarily right-wing apologist for saying so. Frankly I think using labels like that is a different version of the same thing.

Can we agree to disagree and get back to the topic at hand?

 

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:

It might seem insignificant, but I don't think we would take what the White House says about Canadian policy as fact until it was confirmed here. I'd rather not make those same assumptions about another nation, even one which does not have a stable government.

Who else do you speak for?  

Cool

6079_Smith_W

@ M. Spector

Indeed, the NTC has called a news conference to announce that they will cooperate.

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/news/Libya-agrees-to-new-Lockerbie.68445...

Sorry to be a stickler about it, but I figured it was best to go with what was actually reported in the other story. That means waiting for some confirmation from Libya, rather than just assuming that the government of Britain speaks for them.

It might seem insignificant, but I don't think we would take what the White House says about Canadian policy as fact until it was confirmed here. I'd rather not make those same assumptions about another nation, even one which does not have a stable government.

 

6079_Smith_W

Why the royal we of course, NS. 

Or perhaps that should be the Royal We.

Whom else, indeed...

 

NDPP

Libya: Illustrious Corpses - the Truth is Always Revolutionary  -  by Toni Solo

http://mathaba.net/news/?x=628836

"Right now in Libya, the UN recognized government and its NATO masters are bombing hundreds of civilians to death in Sirte, Bani Walid and Sabha. They have bombed schools and hospitals and murdered whole families. This infamy was sanctioned by the UN from the beginning and has been justified by many of the cream of international progressive intellectuals. It is long past time to identify and condemn the accomplices to the crimes against humanity in Libya committed by the western elites and their puppet governments.

The colonial war against Libya has defined more sharply than ever the structures of knowledge, attitudes and behaviour that characterize progressive and radical intellectual production in Europe and North America. The war has thrown that production into crisis..

To conclude, as Ignacio Ramonet does, that the UN Resolution 1973 was in any way desirable is plainly disengenuous folly. The terms of Resolution 1973 left matters wide open to whatever interpretation the North American and European governments concerned chose to put on it. No serious observer expected anything less than the ruthless application of force to support the racist putsch-insurrection struggling for existence in Benghazi.

That putsch-insurrection completely lacked popular support in the rest of Libya. Ramonet's reputation is one more illustrious corpse in the Ship of Fools illuminated by the flames of NATO's genocide in Zliten, Tripoli, Sirte and Bani-Walid..."

 

NDPP

Failure in Libya: The War Party Strikes Out  -  by Justin Raimondo

http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2011/09/27/failure-in-libya/

"Libya represents the failure of the interventionist project envisioned by the Obama administration: as rebel gangs run wild, attacking rival tribesmen and 'traitors', like their former commander-in-chief - the country threatens to become what the more ambitious interventionists love best: a Failed State, that is, a state that fails to maintain its monopoly on the use of force in a given geographical area. For the War Party, every such failure is an opportunity to fill the power vacuum.

Faster than you can say 'I told you so', we'll have boots on the ground. No other course is possible, given what is unfolding in Libya at the moment..."

NDPP

Video: Libya - The Alleged Mass Graves of Abu Salim Contain Nothing but Camel Bones

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9qMh2DDYrY

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:

It might seem insignificant, but I don't think we would take what the White House says about Canadian policy as fact until it was confirmed here.

If Stephen Harper said on Monday that Canada would not co-operate with the U.S. in an international criminal investigation, and the U.S. State Department said that on Tuesday it had been assured in a phone call to the Canadian government that in fact Canada would co-operate, I think it would be irresponsible to assume that the State Department was lying and that Harper had not changed his mind.

 

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Some criticism of that sort is - though not mindless - I would say it is calculated to play into the mindless xenophobia of others. Never a good motive, IMO.

So without being able to divine the "calculation" of the person or persons making such criticisms, you nevertheless feel free to attribute xenophobic motives to them, without evidence, simply on the basis of some vague impression you have about "some" of such criticisms.

Sounds to me like a convenient way to dismiss any criticism of U.S. imperialism - oh, but wait - that's something that only a right-wing apologist would try to do, so it couldn't possibly apply to you.

Fidel

Terrorist Op-Ed: Libya's Al Qaeda Rebel Commander Writes Column for Britain's Progressive Media

Global elite defile memories of "War on Terror" dead, humor terrorist Belhaj who fought and killed Western troops.

Quote:
One would think Abdul Belhaj, leader of Libya's NATO-backed seizure of Tripoli a month ago would be an overly busy man. After all, the city itself is still not secure enough to move the alleged "National Transitional Council" there to preside over the war torn nation, and rebel forces 85 miles southeast near Bani Walid have been soundly defeated and are now slinking away from the battlefield. Meanwhile, the "final, final" siege of Sirte looks to be once again stalled, and now civilians fleeing the brutalized city are claiming NATO and revolutionaries, not Qaddafi, are committing genocide against the civilians of Libya.

CIA "blowback" = ongoing collusion with extreme right wing terrorists

6079_Smith_W

@ M. Spector #85

Really? I think I'd wait for the confirmation. 

I can think of plenty of instances where our government and the U.S. did not have the same understanding of a situation; trade agreements are just one example.

And to use a more relevant example, when the U.S. said it had killed Osama Bin Laden with Pakistani help, I believe Sec. Clinton was implying a level of cooperation which did not actually exist. It doesn't matter that digging further revealed that the authorities were unaware; most people don't get past the headlines. 

So as for this situation, I have to ask why one would accept the word of an Imperialist government, and the aggressor in an ongoing war, without waiting for word from representatives of the country which is being attacked? Until I get confirmation, I wouldn't assume that the British representative was not lying to put pressure on the situation.

I know it fits nicely into the story that they are nothing but puppets, but I think what is most significant here is that they took an independent stand and refused to cooperate in the first place. It is odd because it raises the question of what their motive was - to establish sovereignty? To protect themselves? Certainly it undermines an opportunity to demonize Gadaffi for the crime which is most in the eye of the west.

As well, it shows that at least someone in the NTC doesn't just get on the phone and call the CIA to find out what they should do next. It is a sign that they are not exactly on the same page. 

As well, one prevailing narrative in the MSM is that the NTC will "lose credibility" if they take too long forming government and cannot defeat Gadaffi militarily. That says to me that they are not just a branch office, and that the situation is still very much in flux over there.

Again, it is clear the west have the power to exploit the situation and destabilize it. Whether they have the power to control it in the long term is another matter.

 

 

 

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

The NTC is at least as much a puppet regime as Harper's regime is.  Of course in the real world if a PM gives in to things like security integration, buying overpriced US war munitions and using our military in regime change situations then they get to have a public disagreement on trivial matters or matters that might embarrass them.  I would expect the same type of independence from any newly installed regime especially one that was given NATO for its airforce in the civil war. If I was to guess I suspect that some of the current leadership overlap with the players involved in the Lockerbie incident and they believe that sleeping dogs should be euthanized.

NDPP

28 Sept: Libya Resistance News

http://libyasos.blogspot.com/2011/09/28-september-2011-libya-resistance....

"Rebels are losing morale on all fronts as 8 Rebel commanders died and no progress is made even with forming government..."

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

The bullshit just keeps piling higher.

6079_Smith_W wrote:

@ M. Spector #85

Really? I think I'd wait for the confirmation.

And yet you decided to run with the story of how the Libyan NTC was asserting its independence from the west by refusing to co-operate with Scottish authorities on the Lockerbie case, even though the very news item you linked to cast serious doubt on that story.

Is that what they teach in journalism school these days?

Quote:
I can think of plenty of instances where our government and the U.S. did not have the same understanding of a situation; trade agreements are just one example.

It's not a matter of having a different understanding of the same facts - this was a case of more recent facts (reported by actual participants in the telephone conversation between Britain and the puppet NTC) directly contradicting previous facts (the comments of the "interim justice minister" of Libya - who presides over, basically, nothing), and confirming previous assurances given by the [b]chairman of the NTC[/b] to the [b]British prime minister[/b] that co-operation would continue.

You want to wait for confirmation of the new facts? But you didn't; you ignored them because they contradicted your own theory that the plucky and independent NTC was standing up against the British imperialists. Instead of "waiting for confirmation" you took the original story at face value and trumpeted it here at babble. And of course when confirmation finally came sufficient to satisfy your skepticism, it turned out your judgement was 180° wrong.

6079_Smith_W

Actually M. Spector, the refusal was real as reported, just as the reversal (which I posted) also was. Sorry to say that verifying independent claims is still the standard, even if those claims wind up being sound.

You mention waiting for confirmation; that usually means that both sides confirm that a claim is true. Until I know otherwise, I have to go by the last word of the NTC, when we are talking about a claim regarding their actions.

There are enough cases of governments passing on lies that I'll keep my skepticism, if you don't mind.

You can spin it however you want to. I'd suggest we agree to disagree on this.

 

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

"Extreme right-wing terrorists"?

It's so nice to see that Globalresearch.ca, which never heard of a conspiracy it didn't embrace whole-heartedly, has now jumped on the bandwagon of the War on Terra™.

 

Quote:
Global elite defile memories of "War on Terror" dead, humor terrorist Belhaj who fought and killed Western troops.

Nasty terr'ist! How dare he go to Iraq and make war upon our brave Anglo-American troops!!  [img]http://archive.rabble.ca/babble/rolleyes.gif[/img]

 

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:

There are enough cases of governments passing on lies that I'll keep my skepticism, if you don't mind.

No, I don't mind skepticism [b]based on evidence[/b]. I just think it should be applied to things one wants to believe as well as those one doesn't.

Fidel

M. Spector wrote:

"Extreme right-wing terrorists"?

It's so nice to see that Globalresearch.ca, which never heard of a conspiracy it didn't embrace whole-heartedly, has now jumped on the bandwagon of the War on Terra™.

 

Quote:
Global elite defile memories of "War on Terror" dead, humor terrorist Belhaj who fought and killed Western troops.

Nasty terr'ist! How dare he go to Iraq and make war upon our brave Anglo-American troops!!  [img]http://archive.rabble.ca/babble/rolleyes.gif[/img]

 

 

Well you have three choices. You can:

   1.  believe the imperialists themselves when they claim to be fighting an entirely legitimate global war on terror since 9/11/01(GWOT plus Homeland Stupidity) and it follows, naturally, the very imperialist CIA's own "blowback" narrative that they and their jihadi terrorist friends had a major falling out as corporate sponsored newz media have leaked to the public every now and then. Throw in a little Elvis bin Laden mythos, and yer practically a Yanqui doodle dandy swallowing anything the corporate newz media feed you. Blech!

2. or you can believe the whistleblowers and lefties who've pointed to reams of evidence that the very imperialist CIA's anticommunist jihad didn't actually cease by 1991 and have been colluding with everyone from the Taliban to "al Qa'eda" ever since.

It's your choice, really. Life's all about choices. So choose wisely.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Fidel wrote:

Well you have three choices.

I don't like either of the two you mentioned. What's the third?

NDPP

Massacring Protesters: Really?

http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2011/09/massacring-protesters-really....

"The first straw and big question assessed: The order to kill demonstrators..."

NDPP

'Libya Fighters Nab Gaddafi Spokesman'

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/201890.html

"Libya's revolutionary forces have reportedly arrested the spokesman for the fugitive former Libyan dictator, Muammar Gaddafi's deposed administration in the north of the country. On Thursday, the opposition NTC commanders said the council's revolutionaries had captured the official, Moussa Ibrahim, in Gaddafi's hometown of Sirte, AFP reported..."

Naturally the NTC or perhaps Western intelligence psychos will be trying to 'extract' information as to MG's whereabout. I wouldn't want to be in his shoes...

ps - Ibrahim has surfaced and denied NTC reports of his capture. He is alive and well and still fighting. As is Gadhafi who also extended his personal condolences to the family of Gamal Nasser's son, who recently died.

NDPP

RT: Interview with Simon Jenkins (Guardian Journalist) (vid)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gVSAKoayYQ&feature=player_embedded#1

Libya intervention unjustified and unprecedented

 

Shocking! The Body of Abdel Fattah Younes - Libya (and vid)

http://libyasos.blogspot.com/2011/10/18-body-of-abdel-fattah-younes-liby...

"Leaders of one of Libya's largest and most powerful tribes have told BBC Newsnight that they will take their own revenge on the killer of the rebel commander, General Abdel Fattah Younes, if the country's new rulers fail to solve the case. Elders of Younes' Obeidi tribe said senior officials in the National Transitional Council (NTC) conspired with Islamic extremists to kill the general.

'The conspiracy was concocted at the Executive Council - and they know who is behind it. They issued a summons to General Younes, they lured him, lay in wait for him - and then they did what they did to him..."

NDPP

Red Cross Highlights 'Dire' Situation in Sirte

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1002/libya.html

"The Red Cross said the humanitarian situation in the Libyan city of Sirte is 'dire'..."

 

Mass Graves in Libya (and vid)

http://libyasos.blogspot.com/2011/10/war-crime-mass-graves-in-libya.html

"A mass grave of alleged pro-Gaddafi soldiers has been discovered in a rebel-controlled area in Libya, according to British newspaper The Telegraph. The location was swiftly bulldozed after the discovery, suggesting an attempt to cover up the killings. The bodies were reportedly mutilated, adding to the recent concerns of human rights abuses by the rebels..."

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