Libya IV

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West Coast Greeny
Libya IV

aaaannnd go.

Fidel

Yes, I think Libya has a problem with pirates anchored offshore.

West Coast Greeny

Fidel wrote:

Where is there proof of a genocide in a country where HDI is higher than it is for most third world capitalist hell holes?

Is this going to be another case of blitzkrieg for humanitarian reasons? Gadaffi agreed to a non-aggression pact with her Bushler and went along with the phony global war on terror.

Blood-for-oil terrorists are at it again.

I didn't say there was a genocide. I don't throw that word around lightly. I said there that 10,000 Libyans have been slaughtered. That is according to an Arab member of the International Criminal Court, and that number was taken in February, one and a half weeks into the conflict. It seems everybody's just lost count at this point. 

To put this in perspective, the high figure for civilian deaths in the war in Afghanistan runs around 35,000. This number was accumulated over 10 years. 

As for HDI: Yes, it's amazing what a country can do when it has the 9th largest oil reserves in the world and only has to take care of 7 million people. Libya is tied with Saudi Arabia on the HDI rankings list. I guess the House of Saud has been amazing for that populace too. 

Fidel

Libya ranks [url=http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/]53rd for HDI[/url], better than Costa Rica, Mexico, Brazil, Georgia, Ukraine etc and better than most third world capitalist countries under the west's economic tutelage.

The problem with capitalists and pirates etc is that they tend to want to provide both supply and demand in creating markets for their products. The CIA and British SAS have been arming their eventual enemies and enemies of their enemies for a long a time. It's a well established pattern. This way the jackals have a foot in the door from the beginning. In Central Asia they've created militant Islam and continue funding the expansion of with the madrassa system. There is no such thing as "al-Qaeda" - they're just leftover anticommunists and opportunistic terrorists leftover from the end of the cold war. The CIA, US Government and their Saudi royal friends funded and armed both Saddam Hussein as well as the Shah and Ayatollah Khomeini's Iran right up to the mid 1980s.

From a web article posted in the last thread:

[url=http://www.redress.cc/global/tcoles20110304]More blood for oil? Libya and the UK[/url]

Quote:
British officials have condemned Gaddafi for murdering his people. There is just one thing wrong with this: Britain’s outgoing New Labour party and incoming Tory-Liberal Democrat “coalition” governments sold Gaddafi’s regime arms worth GBP 22,500,961 in the second quarter of 2010 alone, including “ammunition for wall and door breaching projectile launchers (two licences); components for semi-automatic pistols; components for sniper rifles; crowd control ammunition (four licences); equipment for the use of sniper rifles”.2 Would those British officials who support sanctions and the imposition of “no fly zones” on Libya support imposing the same things on London?

They sold Gadaffi weapons to fight against the invisible army of darkness, al-CIA'da. Then they are miffed when Gadaffi's army proceeds to put down an armed insurrection and one which the western world jackals themselves are probably fueling and supplying with terrorists for good measure?

West Coast Greeny

Libya has a high HDI because they have a huge amount of oil reserves per capita. Like Saudi Arabia. Or #1 Norway. Or top in the Mid-East Qatar.

I agree with you that the UK arms sales by the Cameron gov't to Gaddafi is dispicable. 

I disagree with you that Al-Qaeda doesn't exist, but I don't have the time to bounce to the Afghanistan thread. 

Fidel

West Coast Greeny wrote:

Libya has a high HDI because they have a huge amount of oil reserves per capita. Like Saudi Arabia. Or #1 Norway. Or top in the Mid-East Qatar.

There are a number of third world capitalist countries with oil or other mineral wealth that are lower on the HDI list though. Saudi Arabia is not tied with Libya. Saudi Arabia has the largest proven oil reserves in the world, and US-backed Saudi Arabia is a serial human rights abuser. And oil-rich imperialist Kuwait, another US-backed human rights abuser and lacking democracy by a lot, has been described as a large prison by Filipino workers.

West Coast Greeny wrote:
I agree with you that the UK arms sales by the Cameron gov't to Gaddafi is dispicable.

And al-CIA'da attempts to assassinate Gadaffi? Was that despicable, too? I say al-CIA'd because we are adults here and not CNN or Fox drones or subscribers of Rupert Murdoch's London tabloids and fed a steady diet of lies and deception 24-7.

West Coast greeny wrote:
I disagree with you that Al-Qaeda doesn't exist, but I don't have the time to bounce to the Afghanistan thread.

You won't be producing any real proof of "al-Qaeda" for us soon, rest assured. Elvis bin Laden is a myth, a bogeyman to replace what was a false threat of Soviet world domination during the cold war. When a country's economy, the USA's, is largely based on war with profit margins exceeding those of normal industrial capitalism by anywhere from 300% to 1000%, we are going to be seeing more war and more false pretexts for war and even "humanitarian interventions" stemming from false flag threats Nazi Germany style.

Todrick of Chat...

I believe that Cuba has been recently supplying the Libyans with military aid also.

Plenty of guilty parties involved these useless deaths.

 

Fidel

CNN and Radio Marti will say anything against Cuba. Don't believe it. US-based terrorism against Cuba has been going on for decades. They never mention that though.

Todrick of Chat...

That is very true, Fidel. There have been plenty of crimes committed against Cuba, just as the Cuban government is responsible for many crimes also it commits against people that do not agree with their policies.

Like I said in the other the previous thread, all governments are guilty of crimes and they will never let men and women truly be free.

Fidel

Cuba has never perpetrated terrorism against the USA, never bombed or invaded dozens of countries similarly, and Cuba is not responsible for mass murder of millions since the cold war era. Millions of chronically hungry and homeless children around the democratic capitalist third world. None of them are Cuban children though.

But the NATO gang has worked toward the overthrow of dozens of governments around the world. It's hard not realize what's going on with Libya after a decade of false flag terrorist attacks and illegal attacks on sovereign countries, and marching their armies into countries Nazi Germany style. It's about the oil. The gladio gang inc. doesn't give a damn about democracy. The war on democracy continues.

Doug

Fidel wrote:

Libya ranks [url=http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/]53rd for HDI[/url], better than Costa Rica, Mexico, Brazil, Georgia, Ukraine etc and better than most third world capitalist countries under the west's economic tutelage.

 

Even if Ghadafi were personally handing out car and home keys to every Libyan along with a hug like Oprah on speed, he still lacks democratic legitimacy

 

Fidel

Doug wrote:
Even if Ghadafi were personally handing out car and home keys to every Libyan along with a hug like Oprah on speed, he still lacks democratic legitimacy

I would argue that Gadaffi is as legit and even moreso than war criminal George Bush I who lost a popular vote count in 2000. And unlike AWOL George Dubya, Gadaffi actually served his country militarily during Libyan revolution for independence from illegit imperial rule. Gadaffi is a braver and more fearless leader at nearly 70 years old than AWOL George or any of the mad as hatters US chickenhawks or their vicious toadies in Ottawa, or the London war criminals could ever hope to be.

Gadaffi must be legit when Tony Blair and David Cameron have done business with Gadaffi's government. They've lobbied Gadaffi on behalf of multinational oil companies. And Gadaffi agreed with war criminals in London and Warshington to defend the world from an invisible army of US and British backed terrorists leftovers from the dirty war in Central Asia otherwise known as operation Cyclone, the largest covert operation in the CIA's history to cause proliferation of  militant Islam and destabilizing dozens of former Soviet countries, "Middle East" and Africa.

Gadaffi is no coward. The same cannot be said about US-backed dictators in Egypt and Tunisia who fled those countries. The US and Brits will probably have to rendition Gadaffi and force him to leave, like they did with the democratically elected leader of Haiti a few years ago. Because real leaders, legit leaders with the backing of very many of their citizens, don't run away and chicken out when the going gets rough.

NDPP

'Libya' Does Not Exist  - by Justin Raimondo

http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2011/03/13/libya

"In any case, the fiction of 'Libya' is falling by the wayside. What will succeed it remains an open question. However, Western intervention, if and when it occurs cannot bring stability to a 'nation' that never really existed in the first place. The great Arab Awakening now sweeping North Africa and the Middle East is not only bringing down the old order of Western supported dynasties and tinpot dictators of Gadhafi's ilk - it is also erasing arbitrary borders drawn by Western colonizers and Ottoman Caliphs, and redrawing them to reflect underlying realities more accurately.

Any attempt by the West to intervene and favor one outcome over another, is bound to draw the ire of indigenous peoples. That is why it's in our interest to stand aside and let the upsurge play out without aiding the rebellion in Cyrenaica or standing in its way.."

Libyan 'Rebel Capital' Threatened

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/03/201131542757285681.html

"Gaddafi forces inch toward opposition stronghold of Benghazi while wrangle over UN decision on no-fly zone crawls. Colonel Milad Hussein, Libyan army spokesman, said that government forces were 'marching to cleanse the country' of insurgency, whom he called 'rats and terrorists'. He vowed to take on Benghazi, the so-called 'rebel capital' in the east.."

Fidel

NDPP wrote:
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/03/201131542757285681.html

n the end, a divided Security Council failed to produce a consensus among its 15 members on a no-fly zone, and Russia said it had questions about the proposal.

"Fundamental questions need to be answered, not just what we need to do, but how it's going to be done," Vitaly Churkin, Russian ambassador, said in New York.

So Russia and Germany are holdouts against a no-fly resolution.

And the largest reason given by the rebels for the need of a no-fly zone is to prevent "sub-Saharan mercenaries" from entering the country to fight on Gadaffi's behalf. And yet there is no proof that these mercenaries exist.

The rebels are not listening to Latin American leaders calling for peace talks. The rebels instead choose to talk with Washington and London and Paris. And what they are demanding, basically, is that NATO come and attack their own country. US Military commanders have already admitted that this would be the case with establishing a no-fly zone over Libya. No-fly means attacking the government of Libya's military forces, and the attack would take place in and over Libya against Libyan ground and air forces.

Unionist

Unfortunately, I'm hearing things the same way Fidel is. We can only hope the big powers keep their hands off, because we seem to have no movement that can give us more than hope.

 

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Hope for what?

Fidel

What are you hoping for, Bec? Because the "North Atlantic" Treaty Oil company won't be cutting you in on Libyan oil contracts soon. So why are you all hot to trot for another blitzkrieg over yet another oil-rich country?

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

 

Fidel, you making shit up about me, can I get you to stop that? Egh buddy? 

Please show me where I've said in this Libya debate where I support NATO or the US invading Libya over this? To the contraire I've stated several times here:

I DO NOT SUPPORT A FUCKING NO FLY ZONE>>> NOR DO I SUPPORT US INVOLMENT IN THIS AFFAIR.

Yes, as do many people, I'd like to see the rebels win on their own accord (that's what I'm hoping for). If people in the international community want to show their support for the rebels by giving them weapons and supplies I'm good with that as well. That doesn't mean I want the USA to invade Libya.

As for the oil it doesn't matter who controls Libya: they will sell it on the world market at the world market price. That will probably be to Europe not the USA; I could give a shit about their oil.

 

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

 

Gadhafi says rebel choice: Surrender or run away

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110315/ap_on_re_af/af_libya

 

 A Pro Gadaffi soldier sits on a tank...

 

 Libyan rebels inspect a bomb crater.

 

Quote:

Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi says he expects victory in the fight against the rebels trying to overthrow his government and is deriding international discussion of a no-fly zone.

In an interview with the Italian newspaper Il Giornale published Tuesday, he said he was not like the Tunisian or Egyptian leaders, who fell after anti-government protests.

"I'm very different from them," he said. "People are on my side and give me strength."

Gadhafi's forces are racing toward rebels' strongholds, with an all-out assault on Ajdabiya and blockade of Misrata outpacing French and British efforts to build support for a no-fly zone.

He said rebels' options are closing: "There are only two possibilities: Surrender or run away."

Most will run away and live to fight another day, the tactic works quit well for others, (like the Taliban). No reason for it not to work here as well; he'll probably now have permanent insurgencies to deal with from now on.

He better get more than an all female bodyguard togeatherLaughing.

Quote:

In Paris, efforts for a no-fly zone had stalled and French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe suggested in a radio interview that events in Libya have already outpaced diplomatic efforts.

"If we had used military force last week to neutralize some airstrips and the several dozen planes that they have, perhaps the reversal taking place to the detriment of the opposition wouldn't have happened," Juppe told Europe-1 radio. "But that's the past."

The victory in Zwara, a seaside town about 30 miles (50 kilometers) from the Tunisian border, reversed the early rebel gains in the uprising against his rule that began on Feb. 15. Government troops had surrounded the town of 45,000 on Monday and bombarded it with tanks and artillery for hours, killing at least four rebel fighters, several residents said.

 

And there you have it; a no fly zone is all but dead.

Snert Snert's picture

But what about the Imperialist invasion to steal all that oil?

What happened to that?  Fidel Castro was so worried about it that he couldn't even take a minute to show some support for the people of Libya.  So where is it?

What happens when the sky doesn't fall?

Unionist

Snert wrote:

But what about the Imperialist invasion to steal all that oil?

Hasn't happened yet. Hope it doesn't. They can't find too many Libyans who will shower the invaders with garlands. And they haven't managed to get enough foreign powers together with a single aim yet.

Quote:

What happens when the sky doesn't fall?

Too early to tell, but I would say that if it doesn't fall, a sigh of relief and some slight optimism for the future is in order.

You'll recall that the U.S. couldn't get the Security Council onside on Iraq, so Bush and Blair went ahead on their own to steal all that oil. Their heirs may not be eager to repeat the same depressing experience with so many unknowns in the picture. Let's hope the unknowns are fruitful and multiply!

 

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

 

Why Libya's Qaddafi is unlikely to push much further east

Looks like the rebels are switching to classic hit and run desert tactics...
 

Quote:

After days of being pounded by rocket fire and bombing runs from forces loyal to Qaddafi, Libya's rebel army piled into their pickup trucks yesterday afternoon and cut a ragged retreat from the oil town of Brega to Ajdabiya, 40 miles to the east. They left mounds of ammunition and supplies behind them as they fled, Qaddafi's fighters surging behind.
That was all according to plan, says Mohammed el-Majbouli.
"We drew [Qaddafi's forces] forward, and then we maneuvered behind them and trapped them," says Mr. Majbouli, a former member of Qaddafi's special forces who is now organizing rebel fighters.
He says a reserve force of rebels with military training had been hidden in homes in the eastern third of the sprawling petrochemical complex at Brega. After the Qaddafi men passed at about 8 p.m. last night, the rebels came out, retaking the town as well as about 20 prisoners from Qaddafi's forces.
Majbouli's claim of victory, which is also made by senior officers who have defected to the rebel cause, could not be independently confirmed. But if he is right, it would be the fourth time Brega has changed hands in less than two weeks, emphasizing the strange, shimmering nature of the conflict being fought in Libya's coastal desert.
While it remains easy for Qaddafi to rain mortars and rockets on rebel checkpoints, he doesn't appear to have more than a few thousand men, at most, committed to his eastward advance. Without indiscriminate fire on the cities of Ajdabiya or Benghazi - just the sort of act that might galvanize the international community into action, which Qaddafi is likely keen to avoid - it's hard to see his forces advancing quickly much farther east.

 
Just when you think it's too late it now appears the Rebels are starting to get better organized to fight a protracted hit and run fight. As mentioned before it would appear Gadaffi is big on guns and short on troops to hold ground and protest supply lines...
Anybody watch "Rat Patrol" back when they were kids? We might be seeing the modern equivalency to that in the near future in Libya.
 
Quote:
 
Rebel generals met today to coordinate plansMeanwhile, there are nascent signs of greater organization for the rebel forces. A conclave of generals who defected from Qaddafi's army to the rebellion met in Ajdabiya today, planning the city's defense and future options.
Among them were Gen. Daud el-Sobhi from Adjabiya and Gen. Suleiman Mahmoud from the far eastern city of Tobruk, who was one of the first senior officers to defect from Qaddafi. Gen. Mahmoud is said to have 3,000 troops under his command.
A spokesman for the transitional government in Benghazi says they're organizing military units to harass and cut from behind Qaddafi's supply lines if he tries to make a move further east.
The rebels' plans now depend on how many troops Qaddafi - who has to worry about protecting himself in Tripoli and bringing the unruly western towns of Misrata and Zawiyah to heel - can commit to fighting in the east.
Handi Hasnawi, a fighter just back from Brega this afternoon and who participated in the battle with Qaddafi's forces last night, estimated they had about 25 civilian cars' worth of soldiers.

 

With better organization will come better logistics... this will allow the rebels to hang on even if they lose towns to the east for now.

 

NDPP

Erdogan Discusses Alternatives with Gaddafi To End Crisis

http://www.sundayszaman.com/sunday/newsDetail_getNewsById.action?newsId=...

"Prime Minister Recept Tayyip Erdogan spoke to Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi to discuss ways to end Libya's crisis and suggested the colonel appoint a new political figure who has popular support to help find a solution. Erdogan, who opposes foreign military intervention in Libya told Al Arabiya television in an interview he expected Gaddafi to take positive steps in this direction. Erdogan also told the Arab TV network that Turkey wants a halt to the fighting by both sides in the east and west of Libya.

Ergodgan called on the international community to 'display solidarity' and 'act together' to stop a civil war and pave a way for a peaceful change in Libya and other countries, whose leaders face what the prime minister called a 'demand for change' from their people."

NDPP

Who is Winning The Libyan Conflict? (and vid)

http://english.aljazeera.net/programmes/insidestory/2011/03/201131585234...

"Both rebels and forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi have claimed victory in fights over key towns. And while the international community debates whether or not to impose a no-fly zone over Libya, very little of the onslaught is coming from the air. Tanks, artillery, helicopters and ships at sea are spear-heading the Gaddafi offensive. Just who is winning this conflict?

ov ov's picture

What is it with these "news" photos from yahoo.  One guy in the bushes (could have been taken in any photo studio in the world), a small hole in the ground miles from any building, a few school kids holding up a sign that they might not even know what was printed on it (this guy gave us $10 just to take our picture).  Is all this supposed to be proof that we need to immediately go in with an armed invasion like in Iraq.   I've seen bigger "mass demonstrations" by the local anti-poverty committe than any of the vids out of Libya.  Show me a Woodstock size crowd, or carnage like white phosphorus carpet bombing and I'll take some notice but until then this looks like the western media trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.

Fidel

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:
As for the oil it doesn't matter who controls Libya: they will sell it on the world market at the world market price. That will probably be to Europe not the USA; I could give a shit about their oil.

Are you making excuses for marauding multinational energy companies? Money knows no country. The oil companies and capital are loyal to no one but themselves. They seek control of oil and gas and not necessarily wanting it for US or British consumption. Supranationals consider themselves international pirates pledging allegiance to no flag. The British East India Company never died. The Gladio gang are still trafficking in opium and running guns. Oil and gas have replaced tea and spices though. It's the same old same-old only different. And they've got our oil and gas in Canada and bought the environment for peanuts a long time ago. It's about the oil as usual. Blood for oil. It's just like that character in Mad Max where the warriors of the wasteland are standing outside the gates of the oil depot guarded by what's left of humanity. They want Gadaffi and ordinary Libyans to walk away from the guzzoline promising them "safe passage through the desert." It's a lie. They might as well stand and fight.

There were "rebels" in 1936 Spain. They called for outside backup from the Luftwaffe to attack Spanish government forces and "mercenaries" supporting the government then, too. Hitler and Goring came through for them with flying colours.

NDPP

Key Town 'Falls' to Gaddafi Forces

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/03/201131514547162811.html

"Gaddafi loyalists claim 'total control' of last town on road to Benghazi as rebels' retreat continues. However, rebel fighters told Al Jazeera that Ajdabiya is still under their control. 'We have lost Brega completely. We could not face Gaddafi's forces,' said a rebel now in Ajdabiya.."

 

Iran in a Dilemma Over Libya  - by Kaveh L Afrasiabi

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MC15Ak05.html

"The fact that Western media suddenly reverted to the singular depiction of the opposition as 'rebels' that implicitly drained it of a democratic facade was another step in the direction of directly and indirectly helping Gaddafi win the civil war. Either way, the US is about to harvest a windfall from both action (a no fly zone) as well as inaction (rhetoric without action on a no fly zone). In the latter scenario, a surviving Gaddafi will be beholden to the US more than ever before, his future mortgaged to submission to US interests and policy desires.."

 

NDPP

The Star in Libya: Libyan Revolution On The Verge of Collapse - by Mitch Potter

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/954084--the-star-in-libya-liby...

"Forces loyal to Moammar Gadhafi smashed through the last line of defence protecting the rebel capital of Benghazi Tuesday and now appear poised to crush the revolt as hope for international intervention wanes. 'It's unbelievable what is happening at the international level. We mounted this fight to live under the values of the West - freedom, human rights and human dignity. And now we are alone,' Iman Bouchaigis, Spokeswoman for the rebel Provisional Transitional Council, told the Star.

'But we will stand here in Benghazi to the end. We will live in dignity or we will die. There is no other choice,' she said.

'If this was happening to a western country - Italy, Germany or Spain - how long would the world wait to act? One day, one week?,' asked Dr Abdul Atif Aghwal, chairman of Benghazi's Jamahiriya Hospital. 'Here we wait, one month, and nothing happens. Gadhafi is a megalomaniac, his mind has snapped and he will only kill more until he is stopped.'"

Fidel

It's funny I don't see him in the [url=http://home.iprimus.com.au/korob/fdtcards/Cards_Index.html]African section[/url]. Apparently Gadaffi just doesn't measure up.

NDPP

Gaddafi Starts Assault on Benghazi

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/16/3165135.htm?section=justin

"Anti-aircraft and heavy artillery fire has been heard in Libya's last rebel bastion of Benghazi, not long after the country's military announced an imminent offensive in the eastern city. 'The town of Ajdabiya has been cleansed of mercenaries and terrorists linked to the Al Qaeda organisation,' state TV said. Mr Gaddafi, speaking in a huge tent in Tripoli, condemned the rebels as rats, dogs hypocrites and traitors."

ov ov's picture

If crimes against fashion are the issue then I can see why it is necessary to condemn him in the international press.  I wish they would give as thorough coverage to something like dusting the population with depleted uranium which could very probably cause an entire population to become sterile within a few generations. Of course that would just get a yawn and a dismissive as being hyperbole, nothing near as dispicable as brandishing a swizzle stick of mass destruction.

Anybody that can't see the press bias that is going on here, never will.

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

 
Personally I think he looks sharp... the swizzle stick and sun glasses make him look bad assed.
He looks like a rock and roll general.

West Coast Greeny

Fidel wrote:

Doug wrote:
Even if Ghadafi were personally handing out car and home keys to every Libyan along with a hug like Oprah on speed, he still lacks democratic legitimacy

I would argue that Gadaffi is as legit and even moreso than war criminal George Bush I who lost a popular vote count in 2000. And unlike AWOL George Dubya, Gadaffi actually served his country militarily during Libyan revolution for independence from illegit imperial rule. Gadaffi is a braver and more fearless leader at nearly 70 years old than AWOL George or any of the mad as hatters US chickenhawks or their vicious toadies in Ottawa, or the London war criminals could ever hope to be.

1) Gaddafi's not a war criminal? The UN International Criminal Court seems to disagree. Is the UN a puppet to the imperialists now too?

2) The 2000 US election dispute was over less than 2000 votes. Libya has never had an electoral dispute. Because they are not a democracy. 

3) Glad to know you think someone who says that his opponents are "rats that will be cleaned house by house" is brave. Opposition cleansing. How progressive. Can't you just be banned already?

West Coast Greeny

Yes. Gaddafi's a pimp. Unfortunately pimps tend not to be good people.

NDPP

Major Powers Discuss Libyan Intervention

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/mar2011/liby-m15.shtml

"Dominating the international discussion is mainly fear in the major imperialist capitals that a window of opportunity is closing, largely because of the advances made by forces loyal to the Gadhafi regime in suppressing the revolt. The fear among the major powers is that Gaddafi may succeed in reestablishing control over the country, depriving them of the pretense of intervening to halt bloodshed.

In a propaganda move aimed at taunting and threatening the Western powers, Gaddafi called on the Chinese, Russian and Indian ambassadors Sunday to offer an 'invitation to firms from these countries to eploit Libyan oil, according to the Libyan state news agency Jana."

 

West Coast Greeny

NDPP wrote:

In a propaganda move aimed at taunting and threatening the Western powers, Gaddafi called on the Chinese, Russian and Indian ambassadors Sunday to offer an 'invitation to firms from these countries to eploit Libyan oil, according to the Libyan state news agency Jana."

Or, you know, to buy Security Council votes.

NDPP

I guess SNC Lavalin's jail-building days are over. Ditto for Suncor in Libya it looks like.

here's some hiphop remix fun

Gaddafi Zenga-Zenga People

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzIa_dt_BK0

Fidel

West Coast Greeny wrote:

Fidel wrote:

Doug wrote:
Even if Ghadafi were personally handing out car and home keys to every Libyan along with a hug like Oprah on speed, he still lacks democratic legitimacy

I would argue that Gadaffi is as legit and even moreso than war criminal George Bush I who lost a popular vote count in 2000. And unlike AWOL George Dubya, Gadaffi actually served his country militarily during Libyan revolution for independence from illegit imperial rule. Gadaffi is a braver and more fearless leader at nearly 70 years old than AWOL George or any of the mad as hatters US chickenhawks or their vicious toadies in Ottawa, or the London war criminals could ever hope to be.

1) Gaddafi's not a war criminal? The UN International Criminal Court seems to disagree. Is the UN a puppet to the imperialists now too?

The international criminal court is a tool of the "victors" and brutal colonizers. They have ignored war crimes perpetrated by various Anglo-American backed right wing dictators over the years. Dozens of them. And they have turned a blind eye to every war criminal in the White House dating back to the doctor and the madman of the 1970s and even before them. In fact, the USA and Canada welcomed thousands of NAZI war criminals with open arms after the war. The OSS were carrying on backchannel talks with high ranking members of the SS midway through the war. And after the war, the CIA basically reconstructed Himmler's SS to run the spy ops out of West Germany and orchrestrate acts of false flag terrorism. The NATO gang picked up some good habits since the Nazis' operation Himmler leading to Nazi Germany's invasion of Poland. So the truth is, war criminals is a highly politicized matter of interpretation as far as the Gladio Gang is concerned.

West Coast Greeny wrote:
2) The 2000 US election dispute was over less than 2000 votes. Libya has never had an electoral dispute. Because they are not a democracy.

You're right, a little thing like losing a popular vote count should not prevent one warmongering plutocrat from stealing an election from the other one. Western world elections are games of chance designed for the amusement of rich people.

West Coast Greeny wrote:
3) Glad to know you think someone who says that his opponents are "rats that will be cleaned house by house" is brave. Opposition cleansing. How progressive. Can't you just be banned already?

And I think that for you it's not about the oil. Your naivety tells you it's about democracy and human rights. For the Anglo-American oil company, it really is about the oil and controlling world supplies. For western world imperialists, it's about getting China's state oil company out of Libya and re-colonizing Africa in general. That's the difference between you, who has no financial or geostrategic interests in Libya, and NATO pirates with blood still dripping from their fangs as a result of the current illegal military occupations and who happen to be very interested in Libya's vast oil reserves. It's probably a plus in your favour wrt your apparent innocence as to how the NATO mafia and their supranational corporate and bankster friends operate nowadays.

Your lopsided and very partisan POV is duly noted. There are fair minded conversations and debates taking place WRT Libya. It's not happening in the corporate sponsored newz media as usual though.

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

ov wrote:

Is all this supposed to be proof that we need to immediately go in with an armed invasion like in Iraq.  

Ummm the pictures are proof of nothing... make what you want from them. Like this one...

Here's your man, nice swizzle stick by the way, very few men know how to accessorize. 

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

NDPP wrote:

here's some hiphop remix fun

Gaddafi Zenga-Zenga People

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzIa_dt_BK0

He'd have my vote for a grammy if it wasn't for that killing people for real thing...

NDPP

Gaddafi's Son: Battle for Libya Almost Over

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/03/201131614230683317.html

"Saif al-Islam says the campaign against rebels will be over in 48 hours as Gaddafi forces closing in..."

Gaddafi Tells West to Stay Out of Libya

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/03/201131633330526824.html

Sarkozy Election Campaign Was Funded by LIbya - Gaddafi Son

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/16/sarkozy-election-campaign-li...

"We funded it. We have all the details and are ready to reveal everything. The first thing we want this clown to do is to give the money back to the Libyan people. He was given the assistance so he could help them but he disappointed us. Give back our money."

Gadhafi Threatens to Ally with Bin Laden - by Jason Dix

http://news.antiwar.com/2011/03/15/in-latest-diatribe-gadhafi-threatens-...

"Libyan dictator Moammar Gadhafi continues to struggle with remaining internally consistent in his interviews, simultaneously blaming Osama bin Laden for the revolt against him and suggesting he might ally wiht bin Laden against the US if they invaded.."

 

 

NDPP

Libya and the World Left  -  by Immanuel Wallerstein

http://www.zcommunications.org/libya-and-the-world-left-by-immanuel-wall...

"There is so much hypocrisy and so much confused analysis about what is goin on in Libya that one hardly knows where to begin. The most neglected aspect of the situation is the deep division in the world left..."

Snert Snert's picture

Interesting article.

If, say, Sarkozy or Berlusconi were to support Gadaffi rather than the people of Libya, I would expect the left to rip them to shreds for choosing to offer their aid and comfort to a dictator who turned the military against his own people.

I'm not really hearing all that much discussion of why Chavez would choose to support dictatorship over democracy.  Why?

NDPP

interests...

NDPP

there is and continues to be discussion around Gaddafi support by the left, here's another example:

Libya and the Left - by Corey Oakley

http://www.sa.org.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3136:l...

"That sections of the left were prepared to mount a semi-open defence of Gaddafi as he attempted to drown an inspiring revolt in blood, and that others have until very recently supported his barbaric regime and refuse to break decisively from those who still support him, is a searing indictment of their claims to stand for human liberation, and a demonstration that the cancer of Stalinism has not yet been exorcised. Ridding the left of its foul influence is a vitally important task."

NDPP
Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

Is this a civil war or not?  From my keyboard in Canada I can't tell so even if I thought intervention was ever justified (which I don't) I don't think the international debate has moved to the point where it is alright to interfere in civil wars.

Civil wars always have the highest body counts.  Just look at the UK or the USA.  Their civil wars had body counts that put the Libyans to shame.   

Pogo Pogo's picture

I don't think anyone is talking about interference.  The first level of participation is observation and comment.  Right now Gaddafi is trying to win moral support.  Clearly there is divergence in progressive circles over giving him any support.

Fidel

Yeah, it seems to be only Libyans supporting Gadhafi's government. And who are they, really? Meanwhile that US-friendly dictator in Cairo had zero support from Egyptians protesting in the streets. And his government is basically still in-place sans the very unpopular dictator himself who fled the country.

The difference is that the US and Canada advocated peace talks between Mubarak's political opposition and Mubarak's thugs. The same formula is not applied to Libya, however. It's western hypocrisy as per usual.

NDPP

Christie Clark Advisor Building Prison for Gadhafi

http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2011/03/14/GadhafiPrison/index.html

"And halfway around the world, in British Columbia, the man whose company now is building a $275 million, state-of-the-art prison for Gadhafi in the Libyan capital Tripoli, is huddled with premier-designate Christy Clark, helping her prepare to take the reins of government.

Yes, as bizarre as it sounds, Gwyn Morgan, the $300,000 a year chair of Montreal-based SNC Lavalin, a firm that for decades has worked with Gadhafi and his sons, is now serving as a 'transition adviser' for Clark while she prepares to implement her 'Families First' agenda in Victoria."

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Pogo wrote:

Clearly there is divergence in progressive circles over giving him any support.

 

It also depends on how far left in the circle you are...

In a twist of irony, the sad fact is Gadaffi, a member of the anti-imperialist Chaves/Castro block, has now set a president for other regimes, most of them western supported, as to how to handle these revolts;  crush them with your military and police.

The Egyptian and Tunisian people were lucky... the people who revolt after Libya not so much. Look at what s going to happen in Bahrain now.

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