Libya VI

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NDPP

Libya: What Would Orwell Do?  -  by Robert Zaretsky

http://www.zcommunications.org/libya-what-would-orwell-do-by-robert-zare...

" Orwell concluded that, at the end of the day, matters were rather simple in Spain. 'In essence,' he wrote, 'it was a class war; all else was froth on the surface.' It is also a class war in Libya: the few who have everything and are willing to murder and maim in order to maintain their power; the many who are fighting for their dignity. While he would not be surprised, Orwell would be as dismayed by the pusillanimity of the West today as he was 75 years ago.."

VanGoghs Ear

Stockholm wrote:

Even though in recent years he had cynically tried to ingratiate himself with "the west", I get the impression that some people still have a nostaligic soft spots in their hearts for Gadhafi. They remember the good old days when he ran training camps in Libya for the IRA, the Red Brigades and the Baader-Meinhof gang and when he was amusing himself ordering his agents to plant bombs on commercial airplanes...I think this is why I see such mixed emotions about Gadhafi, some people just can't decide whether he's "the good guy" or not.

I think it's the belief of some that "Western Countries" are the enemy, so anything they do is seen through that prism. It seems more likely than any love/long lost or not for Gadhafi 

MegB

Our role should be limited to what assistance is asked for by the Libyan people.  Non-combatants, as usual, are bearing the brunt of the military action, and medical supplies are in short supply.  With casualties continuing to arrive at aid stations during the so-called ceasefire (yeah, right), and basic needs - like water and food - becoming scarce, aid groups like Doctors Without Borders are prevented from entering Libya.

Sending half a dozen F-18s is window-dressing at best, and serves no practical purpose.  It's a waste of resources when we really should be concentrating on getting aid to victims of the conflict.

West Coast Greeny

NDPP wrote:

this intervention is neither 'humanitarian', nor 'liberating'. This is a war crime. The 'supreme' war crime. There is no lawful or ethical basis for it. If the people of Libya, perhaps even neighbours like 'revolutionary' Egypt, wish to lend support, to Libyan popular resistance, let them. Canada has no good reason for participating in this vile imperialist adventure for blood, oil and geopolitical advantage.

You're asking people who started out with mid-power guns, and no formal military training, to run up against a state-sanctioned army, with tanks, fighters and bomber.

The intervention has as much legal authority as is concievable. Most countries on the planet are in favour of it. The Arab League is in favour of it. The African Union is in favour of it. The UN Security Council, who almost never agree on anything, are in favour of it. 

The intervention also meets every ethical ground concievable as well.

Just cause - Gaddafi's oppression and threats of the elimination of resistance fighters in Benghazi and other rebel held cities constitute a grave public evil.

Legitimate Authority - UN, Arab League, African Union

Probability of Success - With the UN taking air suporiority, they can effectly protect rebel fighters and the cities they hold.

Last Resort - Many, at this point, were saying that the protesters were 72 hours from being, as Gaddafi himself put it "cleansed"

Proportionality - A no-fly zone/air support will do far more good than harm in the long run. 

NDPP

Washington's UN War Resolution on Libya  -  by Stephen Lendman

http://sjlendman.blogspot.com/2011/03/washingtons-un-war-resolution-on-l...

"...it's to replace one despot with another, perhaps assassinate Gaddafi, colonize Libya, control its oil, gas and other resources, exploit its people, privatize its state industries under Western control, establish new US bases, use them for greater regional control, and perhaps balkanize the country like Yugoslavia and Iraq.."

 

West Coast Greeny

(misread Rebeeca's comment... whoops)

VanGoghs Ear

NDPP wrote:

Libya: What Would Orwell Do?  -  by Robert Zaretsky

http://www.zcommunications.org/libya-what-would-orwell-do-by-robert-zare...

" Orwell concluded that, at the end of the day, matters were rather simple in Spain. 'In essence,' he wrote, 'it was a class war; all else was froth on the surface.' It is also a class war in Libya: the few who have everything and are willing to murder and maim in order to maintain their power; the many who are fighting for their dignity. While he would not be surprised, Orwell would be as dismayed by the pusillanimity of the West today as he was 75 years ago.."

I like that article but could not it's premise also easily fit those calling for the tamil tigers to fight on while sitting comfortably across the ocean, not to mention other conflicts taking place around the world.

West Coast Greeny

VanGoghs Ear wrote:

Stockholm wrote:

Even though in recent years he had cynically tried to ingratiate himself with "the west", I get the impression that some people still have a nostaligic soft spots in their hearts for Gadhafi. They remember the good old days when he ran training camps in Libya for the IRA, the Red Brigades and the Baader-Meinhof gang and when he was amusing himself ordering his agents to plant bombs on commercial airplanes...I think this is why I see such mixed emotions about Gadhafi, some people just can't decide whether he's "the good guy" or not.

I think it's the belief of some that "Western Countries" are the enemy, so anything they do is seen through that prism. It seems more likely than any love/long lost or not for Gadhafi.

And thus, alot of posters here will latch on to anyone who is willing to make broad denouncements of western imperialism, even if the human rights records of these rulers range from questionable to Stalin-esqe. I'd like these people to look at Al-Jazeera. They provide very good coverage from a democratic and West-skeptical point of view.

West Coast Greeny

NDPP wrote:

Washington's UN War Resolution on Libya  -  by Stephen Lendman

http://sjlendman.blogspot.com/2011/03/washingtons-un-war-resolution-on-l...

"...it's to replace one despot with another, perhaps assassinate Gaddafi, colonize Libya, control its oil, gas and other resources, exploit its people, privatize its state industries under Western control, establish new US bases, use them for greater regional control, and perhaps balkanize the country like Yugoslavia and Iraq.."

 

How in the blue hell to you bully nations the size of Russia and China into agreeing with you on the Security Council? They're unbullyable. They have nuclear weapons, for pete sake.

NDPP

German Left Party Leader Votes in Favour of Military Intervention in Libya

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/mar2011/left-m19.shtml

"Handel's justifications reveals more than he intended. Both he and the Left Party faction in the EU parliament are in fundamental accord with all other parties regarding punitive measures against Libya designed to safeguard European interests in the oil-rich country and to stifle revolution throughout the Arab world.

The leadership of Libya's National Transitional Council consists of former ministers of Gaddafi who turned their backs on him at the last minute and immediately guaranteed the country's contracts with international oil companies. They have as little to offer the impoverished masses of Libya as Gaddafi in Tripoli.

Bisky's vote to support military intervention in Libya is an important lesson for all those seeking to oppose militarism and social attacks in North Africa and Europe. When the interests of the ruling class are seriously threatened, it can rely on Bisky and the Left Party. These pseudo-left forces will play the same role in the near future in Europe as social resistance develops."

beware of the same treachery by 'pseudo-left forces' here in Canada.

West Coast Greeny

NDPP wrote:

German Left Party Leader Votes in Favour of Military Intervention in Libya

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/mar2011/left-m19.shtml

"Handel's justifications reveals more than he intended. Both he and the Left Party faction in the EU parliament are in fundamental accord with all other parties regarding punitive measures against Libya designed to safeguard European interests in the oil-rich country and to stifle revolution throughout the Arab world.

The leadership of Libya's National Transitional Council consists of former ministers of Gaddafi who turned their backs on him at the last minute and immediately guaranteed the country's contracts with international oil companies. They have as little to offer the impoverished masses of Libya as Gaddafi in Tripoli.

Bisky's vote to support military intervention in Libya is an important lesson for all those seeking to oppose militarism and social attacks in North Africa and Europe. When the interests of the ruling class are seriously threatened, it can rely on Bisky and the Left Party. These pseudo-left forces will play the same role in the near future in Europe as social resistance develops."

beware of the same treachery by 'pseudo-left forces' here in Canada.

It's starting to sound like your pseudo-left is the entire left.

Unionist

Stockholm wrote:

I think this is why I see such mixed emotions about Gadhafi, some people just can't decide whether he's "the good guy" or not.

If your theory was correct (your ludicrous theory, I might add), then you'd have to explain why the proponents of non-intervention also had soft spots for Saddam Hussein and the Taliban. You just can't grasp a viewpoint that says that we should not be grovelling at the feet of imperial powers to go bring democracy/freedom/safety to any sovereign country - can you? There have to be ulterior motives, which become increasingly impossible to explain.

VectoV

You think aggression and intervention are more acceptable if they come from "neighbours"? Like, home invaders from the next town are bad, but the bully next door is welcome any time? Do you have any clue (sorry) about international law? You think the U.S. had the right to invade Canada to stop the G20 arrests in Toronto?

 

 

That is a pretty weak analogy. Big difference between peoples right to assembly being trampled on and people being wholesale slaughtered.

Unionist

VectoV wrote:

That is a pretty weak analogy. Big difference between peoples right to assembly being trampled on and people beiing wholesale slaughtered.

Tell me something - are the Libyan opposition forces armed, or not? Are two sides actually shooting at each other, or is one side simply slaughtering unarmed civilians? Or do you know? Or care?

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Earth to West Coast Greeny:

Quote:
In defining itself as "progressive," rabble.ca embraces a[n] ... anti-imperialist stance...

There are plenty of other places that embrace a pro-imperialist stance. You might be more comfortable there.

Unionist

VanGoghs Ear wrote:

I think it's the belief of some that "Western Countries" are the enemy, so anything they do is seen through that prism.

I'd feel more comfortable with that prism than with yours, which is the mirror image.

 

VectoV

Of course I care. The threat was made to go from house to house and there would be no mercy. The rebels can't do a helluva lot with guns against tanks. Are you suggesting it should be a wait and see what happens and then do the old "Ooops" routine. Or should the international community err on the side of caution? Damned if you do damned if you don't.

NDPP

RT: French Warplanes Over Libya (and vid)

http://rt.com/news/international-military-action-libya/

French military jets have fired the first foreign shots in Libya, targeting military vehicles as enforcement began of the UN imposed no-fly zone. A French plane fired the first shot in Libya at 1645 GMT. A vehicle that was providing assistance to the Libyan military was the target. According to the latest unconfirmed reports, another 3 vehicles have been attacked.."

RT: Foreign Intervention in Libya: Creation of 4th War Theater (and vid)

http://tv.globalresearch.ca/2011/03/foreign-intervention-libya-creation-...

"Western nations are interested in Libyan oil and other resources, not protecting the people and that is why they care more about the fight in Libya than elsewhere in the Arab world."

 

Unionist

When the WMD turned out to be a lie, the "Allied" invasion of Iraq was hastily converted as a war of liberation of the Kurds and Shias etc. from Saddam Hussein's murderers. When Osama Bin Laden was nowhere to be found (indeed, they rejected offers to hand him over to a third-party country), the U.S. and its bootlickers transformed the invasion of Afghanistan into the liberation of women and girls and whatever else.

In both cases, there was no shortage of "native" cowards vying for the role of U.S. puppet-in-chief.

There is no difference of kind - only of circumstance - between those recent experiences and the current aggression against Libya - which has probably already begun to take its toll.

For anyone describing herself as left or progressive to be confused about such matters would once have been a forgiveable error - today, it is the sheerest craven cowardice in the face of imperial ambitions and propaganda. People will look back at their applause for the warmongers today and wonder how they could have been such suckers.

This is not a matter of getting the most accurate news reports. This is a fundamental matter of where you stand on this planet.

 

NDPP

CBC is reporting that most people at a rally for Libya in downtown Toronto support Canada's role and a no-fly zone, even though signs held on camera  clearly stated 'no western intervention'.

milo204

and doesn't france get a large proportion of it's oil from libya?

to be honest, i'm kinda divided on this.  One one hand we know the history of US/NATO interventions, we know it's extremely hypocritical to take libya to task while essentially ignoring yemen, bahrain and all the other revolutions being crushed by force in the region.

On the other hand, i don't want to see libyas revolution stamped out by airstrikes and shelling of revolutionaries by a much more well equipped/trained libyan army when a series of well placed airstrikes could cripple the libyan military, and give the revolutionaries a big edge.  If ghaddafi can't launch airstrikes of his own, and if his columns of tanks/troops are destroyed before they reach the cities he's done for.  all he has is military force.

And since it's actually backed by a SC resolution that explicitly refuses ground troops and is supported by the arab league/AU and most other countries it is certainly a step in the right direction compared to the many US unilateral invasions...

The real question is are libyans asking for this or are we imposing it?  I'm sorta torn between my negative attitude towards nato and my hope that the libyan revolutionaries defeat ghaddafi.  

Merowe

Jingles nails it in #46 - how quickly we are stampeded into selfserving military exploits on insufficient information! I see a lot of smoke all this talk of a popular uprising, rebellion, people's war, blah blah but who among us has any real knowledge of the forces in play here? We just take it on faith that this is a popular uprising and not political opportunism on the part of disgruntled factions or tribal interests? A few fuzzy reports far from the frontlines and it's all good? Its amazing there is any swampland left in Florida!

The west sure as shit doesn't give a damn about the Libyan people, they want a destabilized or weakened regime so they can bend it to their oil-hungry will, its as simple as that. And once again, Canada is going to get EVIL smeared all over its sordid self, nice one Stevie and the rest of our pathetic political (choke) 'leadership'.

Nice Voltaire quote upthread!

WilderMore

M. Spector wrote:

Earth to West Coast Greeny:

Quote:
In defining itself as "progressive," rabble.ca embraces a[n] ... anti-imperialist stance...

There are plenty of other places that embrace a pro-imperialist stance. You might be more comfortable there.

Libya itself is an imperialist power. The tribes have lost control of their homelands to a central authority, and Gadhaffi has never been shy about expressing his desire for a Libyan-led pan-African empire. All that to say that it's completely in line with rabble.ca policy to be against the government of Libya.

WilderMore

Rebecca West wrote:
we really should be concentrating on getting aid to victims of the conflict.

How? Airdrops? Drive it in from Egypt? Send ships to Benghazi? All of those methods entail risks that Gadhaffi will attack them, unless they are defended by people with big guns and planes.

Fidel

No time. Murder Inc. is too busy slaughtering people in Tripoli to send humanitarian aid. The killing frenzy has begun, and our guy Harper is stooging it up nicely for the Gladio Gang. Let the vicious toadying begin!

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

There are so many dictators it is creating an unsustainable burden on white men everywhere.  How will we ever save everyone in the world and give them the benefit of our civilization?  

I can't tell if the real question is why Libya or which country is next.  How many countries will NATO protect by destroying their infrastructure?  It should be good business for SNC Lavalin.  That should be reason enough for Canada to be there protecting the people of Libya.  Wink

welder welder's picture

West Coast Greeny wrote:

NDPP wrote:

this intervention is neither 'humanitarian', nor 'liberating'. This is a war crime. The 'supreme' war crime. There is no lawful or ethical basis for it. If the people of Libya, perhaps even neighbours like 'revolutionary' Egypt, wish to lend support, to Libyan popular resistance, let them. Canada has no good reason for participating in this vile imperialist adventure for blood, oil and geopolitical advantage.

You're asking people who started out with mid-power guns, and no formal military training, to run up against a state-sanctioned army, with tanks, fighters and bomber.

The intervention has as much legal authority as is concievable. Most countries on the planet are in favour of it. The Arab League is in favour of it. The African Union is in favour of it. The UN Security Council, who almost never agree on anything, are in favour of it. 

The intervention also meets every ethical ground concievable as well.

Just cause - Gaddafi's oppression and threats of the elimination of resistance fighters in Benghazi and other rebel held cities constitute a grave public evil.

Legitimate Authority - UN, Arab League, African Union

Probability of Success - With the UN taking air suporiority, they can effectly protect rebel fighters and the cities they hold.

Last Resort - Many, at this point, were saying that the protesters were 72 hours from being, as Gaddafi himself put it "cleansed"

Proportionality - A no-fly zone/air support will do far more good than harm in the long run. 

 

This is what we call a "Walk Off Grand Slam",folks...

 

Right out of the park and on to the streets,sir!!!

 

Spot on!!!

 

 

Jingles

The Hens were fed up. Fox lay in the corner of the henhouse, and grinned through bloody teeth. "We must rise up and defeat Fox", said Hen, "for we shall never be free while he's in here, and our chicks will never be safe!"

Fox grinned through bloody teeth. "Sister Hen" he said, "Don't concern yourself with such matters. Lay eggs, see that I am fed, and I will protect you from harm"

Hen had had enough. One morning, while Fox slept, the hens attacked. But what could they do, with stunted beak and wing, to defeat Fox, whose teeth gnashed and spit blood and feathers?

"We must have help", said Hen.

"Someone help Sister Hen!" cried Rat, looking through the boards at the fight inside. "Fox will kill them all!" Rat gnashed his teeth with worry, but his beady eyes beheld the eggs.

"We must help Sister Hen!" cried Badger. "There is much we can do to stop Fox". She shed tears and gnashed her teeth, and her black eyes beheld the chicks.

"We will help Sister Hen" cried Wolf. "My pack and I have the tools to stop it. We shall ask our Sister Bobcat, and our Brother Eagle to help us save the coop! For Hen shall live in freedom, and never more fear Fox's gnashing teeth." And their cold, white eyes beheld the warm nests within.

So Fox was vanquished. And Wolf, and Bobcat, and Eagle, and Badger, and Rat, rested contentedly and righteously, their teeth red with blood, and their beds soft with feather.

Fidel

All I'm seeing on CBC are pro Gadaffi supporters in the streets while some vicious toady on CBC pretends that we have a real leader in Steve Harper and talking about "taking out Gadhafi" in his bunker. What a laughing stock CBC has become. We have no need for a Fox Newz North with these idiots doing propaganda duty all by themselves.

Doug

If this provides the defence Libyan democrats need to win - and does only that - I can deal with it.

Doug

Funny how this double posts for me sometimes - anyway, carry on.

Fidel

10 year-long medieval siege followed by a good shellacking and military occupation. It'll be a repeat of the bloodbaths in Iraq and Afghanistan. They'll air lift some al-CIA'da to Libya from Central Asia and North Africa, like they did when creating militant Islamic bases in Bosnia and Macedonia and installing a criminal narco administration in Kosovo.

West Coast Greeny

WilderMore wrote:
M. Spector wrote:

Earth to West Coast Greeny:

Quote:
In defining itself as "progressive," rabble.ca embraces a[n] ... anti-imperialist stance...

There are plenty of other places that embrace a pro-imperialist stance. You might be more comfortable there.

Libya itself is an imperialist power. The tribes have lost control of their homelands to a central authority, and Gadhaffi has never been shy about expressing his desire for a Libyan-led pan-African empire. All that to say that it's completely in line with rabble.ca policy to be against the government of Libya.

Not to mention the fact that rabble defines itself as a defender of human rights as well. I'm not pro-imperialism, I don't want world powers to swoop in and steal oil. I do think that, under the right cirucmstance, a coalition of powers does have the right to protect a civilian population that faces the danger of massive human rights violations, and possibly just getting slaughtered..

West Coast Greeny

Doug wrote:

If this provides the defence Libyan democrats need to win - and does only that - I can deal with it.

That's pretty well my view as well.

Fidel

The Yanks want to protect their investment in the "Islamic Front for the Salvation of Corporate interests in Libya". Don't bullshit us, we're not stupid around here.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Quote:
So we are going to take "all necessary measures" to protect the civilians of Libya, are we? Pity we didn't think of that 42 years ago. Or 41 years ago. Or... well, you know the rest. And let's not be fooled by what the UN resolution really means. Yet again, it's going to be regime-change. And just as in Iraq – to use one of Tom Friedman's only memorable phrases of the time – when the latest dictator goes, who knows what kind of bats will come flying out of the box?...

The Middle East seems to produce these ravers – as opposed to Europe, which in the past 100 years has only produced Berlusconi, Mussolini, Stalin and the little chap who used to be a corporal in the 16th List Bavarian reserve infantry, but who went really crackers when he got elected in 1933 – but now we are cleaning up the Middle East again and can forget our own colonial past in this sandpit. And why not, when Gaddafi tells the people of Benghazi that "we will come, 'zenga, zenga' (alley by alley), house by house, room by room." Surely this is a humanitarian intervention that really, really, really is a good idea. After all, there will be no "boots on the ground".

Of course, if this revolution was being violently suppressed in, say, Mauritania, I don't think we would be demanding no-fly zones. Nor in Ivory Coast, come to think of it. Nor anywhere else in Africa that didn't have oil, gas or mineral deposits or wasn't of importance in our protection of Israel, the latter being the real reason we care so much about Egypt....

And what if we are simply not in time, if Gaddafi's tanks keep on rolling? Do we then send in our mercenaries to help the "rebels". Do we set up temporary shop in Benghazi, with advisers and NGOs and the usual diplomatic flummery? Note how, at this most critical moment, we are no longer talking about the tribes of Libya, those hardy warrior people whom we invoked with such enthusiasm a couple of weeks ago. We talk now about the need to protect "the Libyan people", no longer registering the Senoussi, the most powerful group of tribal families in Benghazi, whose men have been doing much of the fighting. King Idris, overthrown by Gaddafi in 1969, was a Senoussi. The red, black and green "rebel" flag – the old flag of pre-revolutionary Libya – is in fact the Idris flag, a Senoussi flag. Now let's suppose they get to Tripoli (the point of the whole exercise, is it not?), are they going to be welcomed there? Yes, there were protests in the capital. But many of those brave demonstrators themselves originally came from Benghazi. What will Gaddafi's supporters do? "Melt away"? Suddenly find that they hated Gaddafi after all and join the revolution? Or continue the civil war?

Robert Fisk: First it was Saddam. Then Gaddafi. Now there's a vacancy for the West's favourite crackpot tyrant

West Coast Greeny

Fidel wrote:

10 year-long medieval siege followed by a good shellacking and military occupation. It'll be a repeat of the bloodbaths in Iraq and Afghanistan.

It's funny that you say that, since the death toll in Libya has, at this point, reached about 1/3 of that in Afghanistan. Difference is, while the War in Afghanistan has had 10 years to reach that number, Libya crossed the 10,000 mark in two weeks.

VectoV

Jingles wrote:

The Hens were fed up. Fox lay in the corner of the henhouse, and grinned through bloody teeth. "We must rise up and defeat Fox", said Hen, "for we shall never be free while he's in here, and our chicks will never be safe!"

Fox grinned through bloody teeth. "Sister Hen" he said, "Don't concern yourself with such matters. Lay eggs, see that I am fed, and I will protect you from harm"

Hen had had enough. One morning, while Fox slept, the hens attacked. But what could they do, with stunted beak and wing, to defeat Fox, whose teeth gnashed and spit blood and feathers?

"We must have help", said Hen.

"Someone help Sister Hen!" cried Rat, looking through the boards at the fight inside. "Fox will kill them all!" Rat gnashed his teeth with worry, but his beady eyes beheld the eggs.

"We must help Sister Hen!" cried Badger. "There is much we can do to stop Fox". She shed tears and gnashed her teeth, and her black eyes beheld the chicks.

"We will help Sister Hen" cried Wolf. "My pack and I have the tools to stop it. We shall ask our Sister Bobcat, and our Brother Eagle to help us save the coop! For Hen shall live in freedom, and never more fear Fox's gnashing teeth." And their cold, white eyes beheld the warm nests within.

So Fox was vanquished. And Wolf, and Bobcat, and Eagle, and Badger, and Rat, rested contentedly and righteously, their teeth red with blood, and their beds soft with feather.

Have you ever thought about writing as a profession?

welder welder's picture

West Coast Greeny wrote:

Doug wrote:

If this provides the defence Libyan democrats need to win - and does only that - I can deal with it.

That's pretty well my view as well.

 

Mine,too...

Fidel

Except they'll have to murder thousands of resistance fighters and Libyan politicians, doctors, teachers, etc first before they seize control of the oil fields and impose USsA's brand of dollar democracy on the most well off people in Africa. Another bloodbath like Iraq to install a corrupt regime friendly to the corporatocracy.

The war on democracy continues, and our vicious toadies in Canadian Government are there waiting with baited breath for further instructions from Warshington.

welder welder's picture

West Coast Greeny wrote:

Fidel wrote:

10 year-long medieval siege followed by a good shellacking and military occupation. It'll be a repeat of the bloodbaths in Iraq and Afghanistan.

It's funny that you say that, since the death toll in Libya has, at this point, reached about 1/3 of that in Afghanistan. Difference is, while the War in Afghanistan has had 10 years to reach that number, Libya crossed the 10,000 mark in two weeks.

 

And I'd wager most of those are at the hands of Col. Khaddaffi....

al-Qa'bong

Quote:

I do think that, under the right cirucmstance, a coalition of powers does have the right to protect a civilian population that faces the danger of massive human rights violations, and possibly just getting slaughtered.

What about Palestine, Yemen, Saudi Arabia and Bahrain? Why does Libya deserve such special treatment?

VectoV

Fidel wrote:

Except they'll have to murder thousands of resistance fighters and Libyan politicians, doctors, teachers, etc first before they seize control of the oil fields and impose USsA's brand of dollar democracy on the most well off people in Africa.

Oh yes...well off under an iron fist, always looking over your shoulder, having to be very careful about what you say and to whom. Yeah, that could be categorized as well off in a really long stretch of the imagination.

Fidel

West Coast Greeny wrote:

Fidel wrote:

10 year-long medieval siege followed by a good shellacking and military occupation. It'll be a repeat of the bloodbaths in Iraq and Afghanistan.

It's funny that you say that, since the death toll in Libya has, at this point, reached about 1/3 of that in Afghanistan. Difference is, while the War in Afghanistan has had 10 years to reach that number, Libya crossed the 10,000 mark in two weeks.

Bullshit and exaggeration is not your talent. They never found any "WMD" in Iraq either. Why? Because that was Yanqui bullshit, too.  Like "nurse Nayirah" in Kuwait. And there were staged massacres in the former Yugoslavia Nazi Germany style as well.

The Gladio Gang Inc. are so full of shit that their eyes must be a deep brown by now and oozing out their ears and eye sockets.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

VectoV wrote:
Have you ever thought about writing as a profession?

What makes you think he doesn't? Jingles, to the hall of fame with you!

West Coast Greeny

Fidel wrote:

All I'm seeing on CBC are pro Gadaffi supporters in the streets...

Mostly because the anti-Gaddafi supporters are getting shot by the army.

I think, at this point, arguing is getting a little futile. Over the next couple of months, we'll see which one of our points of view is vindicated.

If Libya starts flying the American flag above their capitol, starves the country, butchers civilians, and literally steals thier oil, then I guess your right.

If NATO commits ground troops and Libya is getting thrown into a years-long quagmire where tens of thousands are getting killed then you're partially right, and I'm certainly wrong.

If the protesters/National Council take over and democratize Libya, then I'm right, and you'll claim that Obama is pulling the strings behind the scenes somehow.

PraetorianFour

10'000 people have died in Lybia?

West Coast Greeny

Fidel wrote:

West Coast Greeny wrote:

Fidel wrote:

10 year-long medieval siege followed by a good shellacking and military occupation. It'll be a repeat of the bloodbaths in Iraq and Afghanistan.

It's funny that you say that, since the death toll in Libya has, at this point, reached about 1/3 of that in Afghanistan. Difference is, while the War in Afghanistan has had 10 years to reach that number, Libya crossed the 10,000 mark in two weeks.

Bullshit and exaggeration is not your talent. They never found any "WMD" in Iraq either. Why? Because that was Yanqui bullshit, too.  Like "nurse Nayirah" in Kuwait. And there were staged massacres in the former Yugoslavia Nazi Germany style as well.

The Gladio Gang Inc. are so full of shit that their eyes must be a deep brown by now and oozing out their ears and eye sockets.

Actually, Fidel. That shit is an Arab-based source from the International Criminal Court.

ov ov's picture

Let's keep track of the number of deaths being thrown around here. Last week I mentioned I hadn't seen a picture of a single dead body, and then somebody provided vids of a single dead body, and the youtubes had lots of vids on the exact same dead body.  Looks pretty tame compared to Vancouver; maybe we should have a no-fly zone and have our airport bombed by some foreign saviour. Now I hear that a "doctor" says there has been at least six deaths in a rebel village. Six is a bit high even for Vancouver so maybe there is some violence going on, but compared to the million plus numbers that have occurred in countries as a result of western intervention this is still nothing.  If the west has any credibility wrt saving lives they better get the casulaties from their actions down to the single digits.

I don't know who the "Libyan People" are in this case.  If I saw huge crowds like I did in Egypt then I would be more convinced. Now I see photos of a few school kids.   I'm told that the rebels represent the people, and I'm also told they are assisted with foreign finance and advisors; and on this point I'm more inclined to side with Gaddaffi then I am with the western press.

We have no idea who is hiring any of the mercenaries that are in the country.  Again, I'm inclined to think that it is more likely US or Britian (the brits have already been caught in the act of being in the country as military advisors).

 

Fidel

VectoV wrote:

Fidel wrote:

Except they'll have to murder thousands of resistance fighters and Libyan politicians, doctors, teachers, etc first before they seize control of the oil fields and impose USsA's brand of dollar democracy on the most well off people in Africa.

Oh yes...well off under an iron fist, always looking over your shoulder, having to be very careful about what you say and to whom. Yeah, that could be categorized as well off in a really long stretch of the imagination.

None of our vicious toadies in Ottawa nor their imperial masters in Warshington give a shit about Africans. They didn't say shit about Uncle Sam's proxies Rwanda and Uganda slaughtering 5 million Congolese since 1998. That's an ongoing holocaust in the name of the corporatocracy.

No, Libyans are not the most oppressed people in Africa. According to the [url=http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/]UN HDI[/url] for 2010, Libya is at the top of the list for human development in Africa.

The only rights to be liberated in Libya are Libyans from their birth rights to Libyan oil.

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