Libya VII

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Jingles wrote:

... then do as they did during the Spanish civil war: pick up a rifle and defend the revolution.

I'm sure it's a well paid gig. Send your resume to Xe.

Conflating the International Brigades leftist progressives who joined the Spanish Libertarias (where the term originated, actually) to defend the Revolution with rightwing mercenaries who would work for private (capitalist) "security" firms,

That's not very nice.

It's not historically accurate.

It only confuses those who are trying to find their "moral compass" on this issue.



Mike Stirner wrote:


Universality legality and morality are abstract impositions that do not reflect everyday life in any way shape or form, I could care less about some UNesc formulation that was really just about creating a smoother moving form of capital on a world wide scale, legality has never been good for anybody.


What I am talking about is the result of people asking the question after WW2: "How do we prevent this from happening again?"

The answers were

The Nuremberg Principles that were established at the Nuremberg Trials.

The establishment of the U.N.

The U.N. Charter.

The Geneva Conventions.

The enactment and signing (by many world countries) of internation laws that

Hold that regime change and Wars of Aggression are illegal.

Look at what happens when the U.S.A. ignores the U.N. and these laws.

Look at what happens when the Security Council forces the U.N. to violate its own Charter.

Look at what happens when the United Nations of the world adopt your attitude toward universal law and morality -

We get scores of thousands even millions of innocent people who are directly murdered or injured by war or die and suffer indirectly from the consequences of war.

From a moral perspective, does it make any difference whether these people were murdered by Gadhafi or by us?

No, it doesn't. When you're dead, you're dead. Doesn't matter who murdered you.

But it does make a difference who perpetrated these crimes. It amazes me how enthusiastically the U.S., U.K. and France (with Canada, Saudi Arabia, the U.A.E., Qatar, the U.E./NATO and other countries) entered into the compact to commit the "worst of crimes" - war against our fellow human beings.

Just because this may be "the way the world is" is doesn't make it right, we shouldn't make it or allow it to be this way, nor is this the best way for the world to be simply because this is the "easiest" way to do things.


M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Roscoe wrote:

This no-fly zone should have been imposed immediately with an implicite (sic) threat that Libyan air defenses would be destroyed if Gaddaffi used military force against his own people.

I'm getting awfully tired of hearing this hypocritical outrage about "using military force against his own people".

First, using military force against another country's people is no more moral than using it against one's own. People are people.

Second, civil wars happen all over the world, as they have done for millennia. In civil wars, people get killed by their own countrymen - sometimes by the armed forces of their own government. It's horrible, but it didn't begin with Libya.

Third, we're not the cops of the world. We don't get to decide who has or doesn't have the right to kill their fellow citizens. We can have strong opinions on the subject, but trying to be "third man in" is no more righteous in international relations than it is in hockey fights.   

Fourth, military and police force (or threat of same) is used by all sorts of governments "against their own people" in situations that have nothing to do with civil war. If that were a suitable pretext for foreign air strikes, Washington would be a pile of rubble by now. Ottawa, too. 


Libya: Obama's Latest, AFRICOM's First, NATO's African War    -  by Rick Rozoff : STOPNATO

"...In the current reincarnation of the 'humanitarian war' model of the 1990s, an estimated 65 Libyan civilians were killed and 150 wounded on the first day of the bombing onslaught. Oil depots and a medical facility were among the targets of bombing and missile attacks. President Barack Obama was in Brazil at the start of the attacks and by rights should have been declared persona non grata and expelled for his role in ordering US Tomahawk strikes and bombing runs.

If anyone had doubted that it was possible to out-Herod Herod in surpassing his predecessor George W Bush's record of waging military aggression internationally, that illusion should be finally laid to rest. The Obama administration has increased American troop strength in Afghanistan (which has become the longest war in US history on Obama's watch), to 100,000 with another 50,000 foreign forces serving under NATO's ISAF.

It has also massively escalated unmanned aerial vehicle (drone) strikes in Pakistan, killing nearly 2,000 people in the last 26 months, including over 80 civilians slain in 12 missile strikes, the deadliest on a tribal meeting in North Waziristan only 2 days before the attack on Libya was launched.

The US is a far better candidate for an international no-fly zone than any other nation in the world..."


A Nation Led By Blood-Guzzling, Flesh-Eating. Pigfuckers  - by Arthur Silber

"Yes, this will be a very rude post in part. No, my title doesn't refer to Libya, whose leader is the current candidate for StalinHitlerPolPot Monster of the Week, but rather to the leading terrorist nation of the world, the piece of shit United States of Pigfucking America...

But, oh, oh, OH, the horror of bombing Libya! How will 'we' ever survive? 'We' will survive very well indeed...Given the holy mission announced by the Pigfucker-in-Chief with regard to Libya, and in light of the Pigfucker's own repeatedly embraced policies, a question uncomfortably announces itself: Who will bomb the United States, and when does it begin?

Thus are we instructed as to the critical importance of possessing the most frightening arsenal of weapons ever known in history. No one dares apply the Pigfucker's own standards to the Pigfucker himself..."

Canada: Out Of War - Out Of NATO Now!

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Are we allowed to say P*gfucker on babble, or is it considered an insult to the police, whom we must always respect?


Libya: Largest Military Undertaking Since the Invasion of Iraq - Towards A Protracted Military Operation - by Michel Chossudovsky

"The bombing of Libya has been on the drawing board of the Pentagon for several years as confirmed by former NATO Commander General Wesley Clark. Outright lies by the international media: Bombs and missiles are presented as instruments of peace and democratization. The war on Libya opens up a new regional war theater..."


Farrakan Warns/Advises Obama On Libya Policy (vid)

"Well today our dear brother Obama has to be very, very careful...the US government has a long history of deposing leaders of other nations in order to get natural resources - more specifically, oil."


Imperial War on Libya  -  by Stephen Lendman

"In fact it was long-planned. All military intervention requires months of preparation, including target selections, strategy, enlisting political and public support, troop deployments and post conflict plans. Weeks, maybe months in advance, Special Forces, CIA agents and UK SAS operatives came in Libya, enlisting, inciting, funding and arming so-called anti-Gaddafi opposition forces, ahead of Western aggression for imperial control.."

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Resident says Gaddafi forces dressed as civilians


Forces loyal to Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi are bringing civilians from nearby towns to the rebel-held city of Misrata to use as human shields, a rebel spokesman told Reuters on Monday.

The report from Misrata, the only big rebel stronghold left in western Libya, could not be independently verified and there was no immediate comment from Libyan officials.

Residents also said that armed pro-Gaddafi forces had entered the city dressed in civilian clothes and that snipers posted on rooftops were shooting anyone who came within range.

"The Gaddafi forces are forcing people from Zawiyat al Mahjoub and Al Ghiran out of their houses and giving them Gaddafi's pictures and the (official Libyan) green flag to chant for Gaddafi," Hassan, a rebel spokesman, told Reuters.

"They are bringing them to Misrata so they can enter the city and control it by using the civilians as human shields because they know we are not going to shoot woman and children and old people," he said by telephone from Misrata.




Lybian rebels take up initiative


"Gaddafi is like a chicken and the coalition is plucking his feathers so he can't fly. The revolutionaries will slit his neck," said Fathi Bin Saud, a 52-year-old rebel carrying a rocket propelled grenade launcher surveying the wreckage.

"There is no more retreat, we are going forward from now on," he said. "Not all of this is the coalition. We did some of it as well. They encourage us. We were fighting even before they came. This has raised our morale."



The breaking of the siege of Misrata will probably be the next big ground battle in this conflict.


Son of Libyan Leader Muammar Gaddafi Reportedly Killed



Khamis Gaddafi was reportedly injured on Saturday by a Libyan air force pilot who purposefully crashed his jet into the Bab al-Aziziya compound in Tripoli where Gaddafi and some of his relatives were staying, The Times reported on Monday.


Just wow...


Khamis Gaddafi was reportedly injured on Saturday by a Libyan air force pilot who purposefully crashed his jet into the Bab al-Aziziya compound in Tripoli where Gaddafi and some of his relatives were staying, The Times reported on Monday.

b.d.c wrote:
Just wow...

An action entirely consistent with the business of supporting Libyans taking matters into their own hands.

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture


I agree. Khamis was the commander of one of Gadaffi's elite brigades. Who knows Gadaffi might have been in that compound s as well.

One last post here:

Rebels in Benghazi still hoping to defeat Gaddafi

It has footage of Gaddaffi's troops shooting the original demonstrations that started all this.


Continued here.


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