More Korean War Games

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kropotkin1951

Like the people of your country have any choice of leaders in the plutocracy you live in.  Get back to me with a democracy lecture when your politicians can't be bought and paid for by the 1%. In the meantime I find the invocation of democracy to be hypocrisy.

kropotkin1951

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Sure k. You're just one of those people who broke their commitment to the Kyoto accord, and are Israel's best friends.

Just kidding, of course, but does that make my point any clearer?

I am part of a country that did those things. However I refer to Bec as an American because he is an apologist for the American military.  We have other posters on babble from the same country and I don't throw that epitaph at them because they want to be part of the solution not cheerleaders for American Exceptionalism. Its the same as coming to grips with having white male privilege, the first step is recognizing it. The question has always been the same; "which side are you on?

And it does sadden me that around the world the term Canadian now mostly refers to people who run corporations whose business practices include bribes and corruption and even murder to further their profit making schemes.

6079_Smith_W

Yes of course, some of them don't act like Americans at all, do they?

So it's okay to use the slur so long as you see something that fits the stereotype - like mentioning my Scottish heritage if you catch me taking Canadian TIre money out of my wallet.

Or is there some special rule for Americans because they are the top of the discrimination pyramid? Does that also apply to Albertans, or those of us who live within a few hours' drive?

Paladin1

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Like the people of your country have any choice of leaders in the plutocracy you live in.  Get back to me with a democracy lecture when your politicians can't be bought and paid for by the 1%. In the meantime I find the invocation of democracy to be hypocrisy.

 

If you're speaking to me, I'm Canadian.

 

Regardless of the corruption rampant in north American government your naive if you think North Korea is anything but a dictatorship if you ask me.

Again not saying that justifies the US presence there but it is what it is.

 

 

Fidel

OathofStone wrote:

Fidel wrote:

 

The Yanks should get the hell off the Korean peninsula and let Koreans choose democracy on their own and on their terms not by coercion and outside military threats. Nuclear threats and democracy are two totally incompatible themes.[/size]

 

Do you think North Korea would have fair elections?

Korean democracy can only be decided by Koreans and no one else.

Question: When, do you think,  will the USA ever allow fair elections in their own country? The CIA's war on democracy.

What does assassinating leaders of sovereign countries have to do with democracy?

What does overthrowing democratically-elected governments have to do with democracy?

If you think that the U.S. Military dictatorship was ever interested in championing the cause of democracy, then you are misinformed.

 

Quote:
I don't really care if Koreans want to choose democracy or not and I don't think it's a valid reason for the US to be involved in their politics but I don't think the average North Korea really gets much in the way of choice when it comes to their government.

The US Military dictatorship is afraid to allow Koreans to choose for themselves in the absence of foreign military threats,  coercion, and actual violence and especially during times of U.S.-managed elections. They lied about Viet Nam and dozens of other cases where they have intervened around the world to put down popular peoples' rebellions against intolerable U.S. and western-backed regimes.

kropotkin1951

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Or is there some special rule for Americans because they are the top of the discrimination pyramid?

Yes there is a special rule for imperialists.

kropotkin1951

OathofStone wrote:

Regardless of the corruption rampant in north American government your naive if you think North Korea is anything but a dictatorship if you ask me.

Of course they are a dictatorship when I have I ever said they were not. I still don't think that the US has any right to be promoting regime change any where on the planet. The easiest and fastest solution to a better world is for the war monger to take its weapons and go home. The Korean war games are creating the tension not the North Korean government treating its people badly. The destruction of their cities and the war crimes committed in the '50's are within living memory. The constant external pressure on them by the same country has meant that the military is allowed to control their society. Without an external enemy North Korea's government may have fallen decades ago.

6079_Smith_W

kropotkin1951 wrote:

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Or is there some special rule for Americans because they are the top of the discrimination pyramid?

Yes there is a special rule for imperialists.

Really? By Imperialists I guess you mean Americans, right? Does that include two-year-old Imperialists? How about if they don't look or sound too American? Would they be okay if we adopted them into a nice Canadian family?

Does it include naturalized citizens, or just people who were born there? How about Noam Chomsky? Hey, he'd not really like an American at all, is he?

In case you don't get my point, k. If you don't agree with someone you address their argument and refer to them by name. You don't start refering to them by their nationality in the third person as if they are some sort of outsider who has no place here.

Back on topic, Michael Enright talked about the high drama on the Korean penninsula during his opening editorial on the Sunday Edition this morning.

 

 

kropotkin1951

Whatever 6079.  I get what you say I just don't agree with it.

voice of the damned

kropotkin1951 wrote:

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Or is there some special rule for Americans because they are the top of the discrimination pyramid?

Yes there is a special rule for imperialists.

So, then it should be okay to link an individual Canadian's character with the imperialisitic mindset of his countrymen?

For example. if a Canadian poster were to defend some imperialistic aspect of Canada's foreign policy, and a non-Canadian were to reply "Well, that's just typical of the disgusting, moronic, warmongering attitude of your countrymen", everyone on babble would be cool with that? I think it would raise a few eyebrows, at least, especially if the non-Canuck were from a country that's also involved in imperialism. Even though, going by election resutls, the description would not be entirely inapt. In the last election, almost 60% of the vote went to two parties that supported imperialism, one of them led by a guy who built his career on contructing eleborate rationales for bombing other countries(and I am really giving the NDP, Bloc, and Greens the benefit of the doubt here).

Now, you in particular seem to make some distintion between countries, like the USA, that are inherently imperialistic, and those like Canada, which are "sadly slipping into the US-led imperial project(or however you phrased it). But I personally don't really buy that. Setting aside the fact that Canada has more than a century-long history of imperial adventures unrelated to the US(we certainly didn't fight the Boer War or WWI as a result of American pressure), even in the modern era of American hegemony, I really don't see any moral difference between Gangster Number 1 and Gangster Number 3(or whatever rank you think Canada merits). I know the law makes a neccessary distinction between the guy who goes around gunning down old ladies in banks, and the guy who signs up to drive the getaway car in exchange for a few bucks tossed his way, but on a strictly moral level, I'd find them equally reprehensible.   

 

kropotkin1951

Pointing out someone is a white male when they are making sexist jokes is to me the same as calling someone an American when they are making imperialist jokes. The fact that they are part of the dominant imperial power is as relevant as the fact that someone is from the dominant race and gender. Pointing out  that someone is a white male in no way implies that all white males ares sexist only that it is a particular world view that is being used in humour.

Fidel

voice of the damned wrote:

 

Now, you in particular seem to make some distintion between countries, like the USA, that are inherently imperialistic, and those like Canada, which are "sadly slipping into the US-led imperial project(or however you phrased it). But I personally don't really buy that. Setting aside the fact that Canada has more than a century-long history of imperial adventures unrelated to the US(we certainly didn't fight the Boer War or WWI as a result of American pressure), even in the modern era of American hegemony, I really don't see any moral difference between Gangster Number 1 and Gangster Number 3(or whatever rank you think Canada merits). I know the law makes a neccessary distinction between the guy who goes around gunning down old ladies in banks, and the guy who signs up to drive the getaway car in exchange for a few bucks tossed his way, but on a strictly moral level, I'd find them equally reprehensible.

Canada was always a colonial outpost. First the British owned us, and now it's Uncle Sam and the coporatocracy.

Our corrupt colonial administrators in the Mulroney and Chretien outfits sold Canada and the environment down the Mississippi River back in 1989 and again in 1994.  It's all over but the crying with more than three dozen key sectors of Canadian economy hollowed-out by majority foreign ownership and control and mainly by US corporations and oligarchs since 1985.

Uncle Sam is there on the Korean peninisula for reasons of imperialist maneuvering since 1950. The US Military dictatorship has troops in Korea and nuclear-armed to the eye-teeth for obvious reasons of simple imperial maneuvering. It's called divide and conquer. It's an old imperialist maneuveri, and, yes, it is totally racist, totally imperialist, and totally undemocratic to occupy a sovereign country militarily.

The propaganda storyline changes from one week to the next in regard to North Korea's methods and motives because imperialists are at a loss to explain why a military pipsqueek like North Korea would challenge a nuclear-armed colossus like the US Military dictatorship occupying the peninsula and representing the largest threat to peace and democracy in the region.

The barbarians must remain divided and conquered. Not the Germanys, though. Those countries were encouraged to unite for geopolitical reasons.  A united Korea would represent an added economic threat to waning US economic supremacy. The vicious empire was considered the world's foremost military and economic power in 1980. Today they are just the most menacing military power in the world.

Paladin1

Fidel wrote:

 a military pipsqueek like North Korea

North Korea has over 1 million active soldiers (ranked 5th in the world) with over 8 million reserve troops (ranked first).

North Korea also has over 5000 main battle tanks, over 1000 artillery pieces, 1700 aircraft and so on.

Canada by comparason has about 60 thousand active and 20 thousand reserve with many of them non operational. Something like 100 tanks? 70ish jets.

 

North Korea is not a military pipsqueek by any stretch of the imagination.

kropotkin1951

Imagine the money that could be used for the needs of the people of North Korea if they didn't have to defend themselves from a belligerent empire who almost destroyed them the first time it attacked. The leadership gets news from the outside and they know about Vietnam and Cambodia and Chile and Bosnia and Afghanistan and Iraq and Libya.  They may be paranoid but it seems there is good reason for them to be. Without the external enemy at the gate the totalitarian regime would not be as powerful or have lasted this long. For ever action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Fidel

OathofStone wrote:

Fidel wrote:

 a military pipsqueek like North Korea

North Korea has over 1 million active soldiers (ranked 5th in the world) with over 8 million reserve troops (ranked first).

And how many of them are stationed in South Korea? How many N. Korean soldiers are stationed around the USA or menacing its many territories and virtual colonies around the world? How many countries has North Korea attacked with its military compared to the very aggressive and menacing US Military dictatorship and its often used luftwaffe aerial attack machine second to none in world history?

[url=">http://www.globalresearch.ca/1-6-trillion-military-mafia-nato-countries-...$1.6 Trillion “Military Mafia”. NATO Countries Account For 70% Of World Military Budget[/url]

Quote:
The US, Europe and the UK spend around 70 percent of the said money, with nearly half of the total global military spending being done by America. All rogue states, the so-called perceived enemies of the West ie North Korea, Iran, Sudan, Syria, Cuba and Libya, and finally al Qaeda, reportedly spent less than one percent of the total global military spending in 2009.

Militarily speaking North Korea is a pipsqueek lilliputian in direct comparison to the Gladio Mafia and their over-bloated military budgets. NATO countries account for 70% of global spending and the U.S Military dictatorship good for roughly half of the total.  No countries spend more on weapons of mass destruction and nuclear arsenals used to threaten the rest of the world. There really is an axis of evol countries, and they've stepped-up the killing to a frenzied pace since just the end of the cold war. It seems that since the senseless and immoral military aggressions against Yugoslavia through Iraq and now overt military threats against North Korea, Iran and Syria, the Gladio mafia's message to the world is to fear U.S.-led NATO terrorist attacks against their homelands regardless of whether or not they possess nuclear weapons themselves. The Gladio mafia is hell-bent on teaching  the rest of the world not to trust the Gladio mafia because they are the real aggressors and representing the actual global terrorist threat.

The last most vicious empire before this one was the British. The formula for military-based imperialist aggression then was for Britain to spend twice as much as its two closest military rivals, France and Spain. The current US Military dictatorship alone exceeds those military spending proportions by light years without the help of its imperialist ally nations currently re-colonizing Africa and expanding militarily Eastward and well past its former cold war boundaries of the North Atlantic region. North Korea represents zero threat to American sovereignty or 99% of the rest of the world. In fact, the only threat to American democracy is the U.S. Military dictatorship and its NATO-Gladio allies who have attacked dozens of sovereign countries since the end of WW II with exactly none of the victimized countries being any more democratic as a result.

Slumberjack

The yankee imperialist faction of the babbleverse should recommend that their own supreme leaders try direct cash payments to the North Korean dictator as a way of easing tensions, similar to the long standing arrangements they have in place with the Mayor of Kabul involving paper bags and suitcases.  The CIA knows only too well that everyone has a price.

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Imagine the money that could be used for the needs of the people of North Korea if they didn't have to defend themselves from a belligerent empire who almost destroyed them the first time it attacked.

 

Wow, your view of past Korean history is pretty twisted. Not that I could ever convince you but North Korea’s money expenditure in the past, at great expense to its people, has been for an offensive army not a defense one. Until recently North Korea had a conventional army advantage that made a conventional invasion by North Korea a very real threat to South Korea. Over the past decade that conventional offensive advantage as been seriously eroded with the modernization of the South Korean military.  So now you have two conventional armies of about equal footing (quantity to the North, quality to the South) standing off against each other. The best way to break the stalemate for the North would be to acquire nuclear weapons… and, as apparent here, the best way to justify acquiring them is to claim self defense (against an arsenal they can’t possibly really defend hemselves from). I’d buy that except for all the “nuclear attack talk” being slung by North Korea’s propaganda machine towards the south on an almost nightly basis. And believe me unless you get Korean satellite news you guys are nly hearing less than half of it…  And this is coming from the North Korean announcer, not the South Korean news making stuff up. You may call it apologizing or whatever and while you might want to margalize those threats for allot of people its real. You nor I are living within range of any North Korean artillery or missles so we really don't have any idea of wha tit's like to be under such a threat.

Now it’s your turn to put another quarter in the merry-go-round.

 

Bacchus

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Imagine the money that could be used for the needs of the people of North Korea if they didn't have to defend themselves from a belligerent empire who almost destroyed them the first time it attacked. The leadership gets news from the outside and they know about Vietnam and Cambodia and Chile and Bosnia and Afghanistan and Iraq and Libya.  They may be paranoid but it seems there is good reason for them to be. Without the external enemy at the gate the totalitarian regime would not be as powerful or have lasted this long. For ever action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

 

You mean the first time North Korea attacked right? 

kropotkin1951

You are both absolutely right that North Korea invaded the south in 1950, the year before I was born.  The US and its allies then invaded the North during the war and destroyed its cities and infrastructure. 

Quote:

The forgotten war -- the Korean war of 1950-53 -- might better be called the unknown war. What was indelible about it was the extraordinary destructiveness of the United States' air campaigns against North Korea, from the widespread and continuous use of firebombing (mainly with napalm), to threats to use nuclear and chemical weapons (1), and the destruction of huge North Korean dams in the final stages of the war. Yet this episode is mostly unknown even to historians, let alone to the average citizen, and it has never been mentioned during the past decade of media analysis of the North Korean nuclear problem.

Korea is also assumed to have been a limited war, but its prosecution bore a strong resemblance to the air war against Imperial Japan in the second world war, and was often directed by the same US military leaders. The atomic attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki have been examined from many different perspectives, yet the incendiary air attacks against Japanese and Korean cities have received much less attention. The US post-Korean war air power and nuclear strategy in northeast Asia are even less well understood; yet these have dramatically shaped North Korean choices and remain a key factor in its national security strategy.

http://hnn.us/articles/9245.html

Unionist

Bacchus wrote:

You mean the first time North Korea attacked right? 

Right! Like when North Vietnam attacked South Vietnam and bumped into the U.S. victims of aggression. I'm starting to detect a historical pattern. The U.S. have always stood up to defend nations against themselves (Afghans against Afghans, Iraqis against Iraqis, Libyans against Libyans, and when do we get to watch them save Syrians from Syrians...). The one thing the U.S. has NEVER committed is aggression.

 

Bacchus

Hmmm No Im pretty sure that 1812 and the Spanish American war counts as agression. Not to mention all the banana republic invasions of the 1920s and 30s.  

Korea was an attack calculated by Stalin Mao and Kim to occur once the Americans had left Korea (which they did in 1948-49, the Russians left in 1948)

 

Slumberjack

The fact of the matter is that many terrible weapons developed by the western military industrial societies over the course of the last 50 years have been thoroughly tested upon Asian people.  The considerations of the upper echelons of corporate power toward human beings generally have not evolved one iota from how average US conscripts viewed their enemy from a foxhole in Vietnam, which is, being beneath consideration as human beings.  But with recent circumstances still fresh in everyone's mind, we've seen how it is that certain societies function when they feel threatened, with the example of an entire city placed under house arrest and martial law during the Boston incident.  It should come as no surprise to anyone when the heavily propagandized citizens of North Korea and the US are exceptionally profuse with gratitude for any and all measures that ensures their freedom and security.

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Unionist wrote:

Bacchus wrote:

You mean the first time North Korea attacked right? 

Right! Like when North Vietnam attacked South Vietnam and bumped into the U.S. victims of aggression.  

Not in 1975... (from Korean War)

 

Quote:

In April 1975, South Vietnam's capital was captured by the North Vietnamese army. Encouraged by the success of Communist revolution in Indochina, Kim Il-sung saw it as an opportunity to liberate the South. Kim visited China in April of that year, and met with Mao Zedong and Zhou Enlai to ask for military aid. Despite Pyongyang's expectations, however, Beijing refused to help North Korea for another war in Korea.

Oh and...

Laughing 

Fidel

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:
In April 1975, South Vietnam's capital was captured by the North Vietnamese army. Encouraged by the success of Communist revolution in Indochina, Kim Il-sung saw it as an opportunity to liberate the South. Kim visited China in April of that year, and met with Mao Zedong and Zhou Enlai to ask for military aid. Despite Pyongyang's expectations, however, Beijing refused to help North Korea for another war in Korea.

in 1975 the brutal U.S.-backed military dictatorship under Park Chung-hee was there in its glory repressing any and all dissent in South Korea. South Koreans have Uncle Sam to thank for the years of torture and state-sponsored murder under succession of fascist regimes and U.S.-backed  Japanese imperialists running roughshod over basic human rights in Korea.

South Koreans want diplomacy with the North.  Thousands of foreign troops from the U.S. are there to make sure it doesn't happen.  Democracy is the fascists' most hated institution. S. Korean survivors tell of 1980 Gwangju massacre

kropotkin1951

So Bec do you also tell sexist and racist jokes to go along with your imperialist ones? Your American Exceptionalism is tiresome in a forum that has anti imperialism as part of its mandate. There are thousands of place you can go on the internet where your humour would be appreciated but you insist on posting it here. As far as I am concerned it is just flat out baiting and trolling.

Q: What is the only country in the world that doesn't need to fear a coup?

A: The USA because it doesn't have an American embassy.

 

 

Fidel

War crims Dumb and Dubyer

They should be strung up by the nuts for their crimes against humanity same as the doctor and the madman from the 1970's wanted lining-up against a cement wall at dawn. May their blood scream for all eternity.

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

As far as I am concerned it is just flat out baiting and trolling.

Thank you for your concern but but it's unwarranted: if I was really baiting and trolling you'd not be the target... your WAY too easy to hook which would take all the fun out of it. You really need to lighten up and stop trying to be a moderator.

Jokes aside I've talked plenty here about issues concerning Korea, gave my opinion, and, unlike you, I don’t rail about how other people don’t belong here. What's up with that anyways?

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Q: What is the only country in the world that doesn't need to fear a coup?

A: The USA because it doesn't have an American embassy.

Laughing Not bad... There, see, that wasn't so bad.

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

North Korea 'moves missiles from coast'

Quote:

North Korea has moved two missiles from launch sites on the country's eastern coast, US officials say.

The move signals lowered tensions following worries Pyongyang was ready to test-fire the weapons.

The Musudan missiles had been ready to launch at any moment, but "they moved them", a US defence official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, told AFP on Monday.

Good news... also...

North Korea Farming Forces Soldiers To Put Down Arms And Help Plant Rice   

Quote:

The North Korean side of the Demilitarized Zone is a hive of activity - not of fighting, but of farming.

Beyond the barbed wire, ruddy-faced North Korean soldiers put down their rifles Wednesday and stood shoulder to shoulder with farmers as they turned their focus to another battle: the spring planting.

As neighboring nations remain on guard for a missile launch or nuclear test that South Korean and U.S officials say could take place at any time, the focus north of the border is on planting rice, cabbage and soybeans. In hamlets all along the DMZ, soldiers were knee-deep in mud and water as they helped farmers with the spring planting.

Inside the DMZ, hundreds of North Korean soldiers marched in a line with backpacks. On a hilltop above them in North Hwanghae province, Col. Kim Chang Jun said they were being dispatched to farms - but still prepared for war if need be

More good news. This happens every year... things will quit down for the next month or so.                                                                                                                  

Fidel

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:

North Korea 'moves missiles from coast'

Quote:

North Korea has moved two missiles from launch sites on the country's eastern coast, US officials say.

What's the matter, Bec, is North Korea not supposed to have a military or weapons on its own soil, either? The nerve of them. Theyre rilly cruizin for a bruisin'.

The redcoats are coming. Duck and cover. 

Hey how about some more dehumanizing photos of a leader whose country refuses to allow themselves to become another third world capitalist sweatshop in the style and manner of Bangladesh. Because that's all this bs is about, isn't it. Your war crims in government and their puppetmasters on Wall St want you to believe that NK is a threat to peace and democracy. But we all know which country is responsible for committing crimes against peace and humanity, don't we, Bec.

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Fidel here's how you do humor...

I'm an Obama supporter and I can still find humor in this... it's actully pretty funny. You guys are wrapped way too tight.

(this is the last one)

NDPP

North Korea's UK Ambassador Defends Pyongyang's Stance in Rare Speech (and vid)

httpZ://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/15/korea-ambassador-rare-speech

The North Korean ambassador to Britain has made a rare speech to a foreign audience, defending Pyongyang's stance as a response to the provocations of the United States and South Korea..."

Longer Youtube Version

http://youtu.be/HYmFBY7-DQ8

NDPP

N Korea Warns Against Provocation

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2013/05/07/302213/n-korea-warns-against-pr...

"North Korea has warned against any provocation during the upcoming South Korea - US military drills, saying it is ready to counterstrike if a 'single shell' drops across the disputed Yellow Sea maritime border..."

Fidel

Yes but the article you posted says this:

Quote:
"Yes, we will make them pay," Park said, adding that Seoul would no longer engage in a "vicious cycle" of automatically meeting the North's provocations and threats with negotiations and assistance.

Do you think General Park Chung-hee's daughter is being honest about the situation?  Or might she be lying, Bec?

What do you think? Why would a military pipsqueek like North Korea pretend to threaten the South and all that US military muscle laying in wait to whack them at the drop of a pin?  Doesn't make much sense. And what she says about blackmailing the benevolent and peaceful south for aid and assistance sounds like bullshit, too, don't you think? I mean, you have inside knowledge of the situation here. Youre the expert, and yet you post links to pro-war bullshit like this. What's your excuse?

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Well then they better make sure no shells fall across the boarder (which is easy enough).

@Fidel: find some Koreans and talk with them...

NDPP

North Korea Removes Missiles From Launch Sites

http://rt.com/news/north-korea-relocates-missiles-908/

"In a sudden de-escalation of tensions on the Korean Peninsula, Pyongyang has removed two of its ballistic missile units from their launching positions..."

 

A Global Campaign to Call For a Peace Treaty: No to War on Korean Peninsula and in the Whole Northeast Asian Region

http://www.4thmedia.org/2013/05/05/a-global-campaign-to-call-for-a-peace...

"The 4th Media is going to help the Koreans by launching a Global Campaign through our media, together with our friends/supporters'independent medias around the world, in which peace-loving peoples from around the globe can freely participate in support of the Koreans' just and urgent call for Peace not War..."

Please forward and distribute this important peace initiative..

Fidel

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:

Well then they better make sure no shells fall across the boarder (which is easy enough).

It sounds like North Koreans just want a certain foreign military presence to respect North Korean sovereignty as far as I can tell.

And that should be no problem for the foreign military occupation there in Korea since 1950, right, Bec? The lead Gladio nation is there in a purely defensive roll, isn't that right?

Quote:
@Fidel: find some Koreans and talk with them...

Who do you imagine they might be demanding that no bombs or explosives fall on the Northern side, the Swiss? This is not difficult to figure out, ya know?

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Fidel wrote:

Quote:
@Fidel: find some Koreans and talk with them...

Who do you imagine they might be demanding that no bombs or explosives fall on the Northern side, the Swiss? This is not difficult to figure out, ya know?

Please re-read the above highlited statment...

also... South Korea and the US have begun an anti-submarine exercise in the Yellow Sea

Quote:

South Korea and the US have begun an anti-submarine exercise in the Yellow Sea, the Yonhap news agency reported. The drill will continue till Friday.

The exercise involves a nuclear-powered Los Angeles-class submarine, Aegis destroyers and P-3C maritime surveillance aircraft deployed from US bases, as well as South Korean destroyers, submarines and maritime aircraft, military officials said.

"It is part of an annual routine drill held to prepare against an adversary's submarine infiltration," Yonhap quoted a military official as saying.

Anti-submarine drills are for the most part a complex hide and seek game between submarines and ships... they involve litttle if any surface gunnery or bombing. Not to mention they are nowhere near the boarder.

 

 

 

Fidel

Well thank God for that. Anyone who knows anything knows that nuclear-armed submarines could not possibly hit targets outside the safety zone of 2 kilometre radius or whatever it is.

And let's not mention Canadian and British troops there for the military exercises. We all know Canada has no nuclear-armed subs, so what are the Koreans on aboot? They must be mad.

North Koreans are just nuclear holocaustophobic, because we know for certain that the same country surrounding NK with nuclear weaponry have never used them on human beings. And it is just wild coincidence that the same country practicing war off its shores is the exact same country whose military levelled every major city in the North with blitzkrieg in 1950. Imagine 9/11 with the exception of it being an actual attack by a real foreign enemy and a fuck of a lot more casualties.

Surely theyve forgotten about the dozens of USAF pilots shotdown over NK and other non-NATO territoires in Asia when they were merely sight-seeing and snapping a few photos during the cold war? Bygone times.  Unmentionables all swept under a cold war era rug for the sake of political expedience.

And all those times they threatened NK with nuclear incineration beginning with MacArthur? This charade with counter-threats today is surely anywhere from knee-jerk to gross overreaction. Kim Jong Un is surely an unstable, hyper paranoid egomaniac whose mind is warped by power. Who is really in control in the North, anyway? God help us.

Yes I'd say North Koreans have their shorts in knots for no real reason. Why allocate all those troops and defenses at the border the way they have. What a waste of human capital it is. It's no wonder they can't feed themselves while terrorists wage medieval siege of their country the size of the state of Mississippi except a lot more mountainous and arable land situated by the sea and vulnerable to inclement weather patterns, monsoons and such. Who in their right minds would choose to hole-up in such a miserable piece of real estate is anyone's guess. The redcoats are surely unfit to run the country.

Bec if you and I can agree on anything, it should be that highly intelligent madmen and psychopaths tend to do strange things for no good reason apparent at the time. Can we agree on that?

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

I can agree to that but I really doubt Little Kim is a madman or a psychopath. Korea is a beautiful country and it just shows you’ve never been there to say something like that.

You are laughingly over estimating the size and scope of the “occupying” US force you keep refering too which is there under the UN in South Korea. The US now has only one combat brigade (that’s about one third a division) stationed between Seoul and the DMZ in Korea. It spends most of it's time in garrison at Camp Casey. It’s lunacrist to think those 54 tanks, 116 Bardleys and about 2000 “real” infantry combat troops (most all the others are support troops) are occupying all of South Korea.  I bet you (and others here) think they patrol the streets of Korea or something like Iraq or whatever you want o compare them to. You are so wrong it's almost funny. It's North Korea that has the huge army and the South Koreans aren't too far behind. And again I'll state I think NK wants nuclear weapons to counter it's recent lose in that conventional stand off... claiming defence against the US nuclear arsenal is smoke and mirrors.

As for the US submarine the Los Angeles-class submarines are the US navies fast attack submarine. They go after ships and other submarines. While the tomahawk missles they carry can be fitted with nuclear warheads they are rarly equiped with such.

I’m willing to bet this submarine is training at hunting the smaller South Korean diesel electric submarines which are about the same as the
North Korean submarines. Practice makes perfect... There would be no reason to have nuclear weapons on that ship which if you really think about it is always risky (having nuclear weapons out to sea on submarines). That is usually left to the much larger ICBM submarines that would sit on station in deep water out in the Pacific Ocean.   

Fidel

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Fidel

Bec.de.Corbin wrote:
You are laughingly over estimating the size and scope of the “occupying” US force you keep refering too which is there under the UN in South Korea. The US now has only one combat brigade (that’s about one third a division) stationed between Seoul and the DMZ in Korea.

Did you know that there are nearly 29,000 US Army, Navy and Marines personnel stationed in South Korea along with  22 army and air force bases? Now you know.

U.S. military buildup in S. Korea months in making

Quote:
B-2 stealth bombers took part last week in war games with the South Koreans, and on Sunday F-22 fighters landed in South Korea. Two advanced Navy warships capable of shooting down ballistic-missiles prowled waters in the region, Little said.

Six decades later Koreans might be wondering when will the US Military discover that eureaka moment and realize, Hey! We're in the wrong country. Home is thataway! Here are your coats and hats, boys, what's your hurry?

Hint/Clue: All of this muscle flexing has anywhere from very little to nothing do with North Korea's "threats" against the US Military for who it hasn't dawned on in the last 60 years that they are completely lost and actualy IN KOREA! Korea no less. As in not even in their own hemisphere!. Imagine being lost and without a democratic or moral compass for six decades in a row non-stop. How could the US Military be so utterly lost, you ask? They might think to check see what day it is New York or Warshington, and then ask the locals what day it is there in the strange and exotic land where they are currently. You'd think they might feel just a little silly realizing a few people in their midst are not speaking American very well. And this in an age of telecommunications satellites and GPS even. It's ridiculous, don't you think? Their mothers paid for school books and tuition all those years, and theyre still stupid. Big duh for those guys. Never underestimate the stupidity of military leaders running any particular country - their heads are as those found on thumb tacks except less used.

voice of the damned

Six decades later Koreans might be wondering when will the US Military discover that eureaka moment and realize, Hey! We're in the wrong country. Home is thataway! Here are your coats and hats, boys, what's your hurry?

Well, some Koreans might be thinking that. However, according to a poll published last year, the overwhelming majority of people in the ROK want the US forces to stay in their country.

http://tinyurl.com/c5bolln

I will say that I share Koehler's skepticism about the numbers being THAT high. 95% sounds a little lopsided to me. Though I don't think I've ever seen a poll showing that the majority of people in the ROK want the American troops to leave.

 

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

@Fidel: Just becouse you don't understand why the US and the UN has bases in Korea dosn't mean the majority of South Korean's don't niether. 

You are (as ussual) incorrect; there are now only 15 bases in Korea and some of those are slated to be closed in the near future. The number of troops is actully now below 29,000, again, with about 3000 of those in actual combat units. There is no "occupation" going on as you claim.

@VotD: I'd agree, still even if you knock off 25% you'd be at 70%... that's a pretty solid majority. I've never seen any Political parties that run on a get the USA/UN out platform ever really win any solid block of votes.  

voice of the damned

I've never seen any Political parties that run on a get the USA/UN out platform ever really win any solid block of votes.

I believe the Democratic Labor Party advocated the immediate withdrawal of US troops, and I don't think they ever got more than about 3% of the vote in presidential elections(going mostly by wikipedia here) before they split apart a few years back.

The most "pro-Sunshine" of the major presidential candidates was Chung Dong-young, the former Unification minister, in 2007. He ended up with about 26% of the vote. But I'm not sure how big a role North Korea-related issues played in his defeat; there was a general sort of malaise surrounding the Roh administration, which he'd been part of.

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Well I can say from experience what seemed to influence my wife's vote the most was the weapons tests by NK and dismal response to the NK sinking of that ship and the shelling of the island. Economics and corruption also played a part in it but in the end it kept coming back to dealing with NK. Like all other RoK Koreans she wants unification but at the same time she's aware that NK's government is going to be very difficult to deal with. She does not see how the communists controlling the north would be willing to creed power peacfully to a central government that would be subjected to electons by the general population.

That and the chance to elect RoK’s first female president…

 

voice of the damned

Didn't you mention once that your wife is from Gwangju? The one in South Jeolla?

If so, that would make her opinion the definite minority down here. As you can see from the chart...

http://tinyurl.com/cw6dn9w

That said, your wife's views are not totally idiosyncratic. A good friend of mine in Gwangju also voted for Park, though her reasons seemed somewhat apolitical, to do with not liking the personality of Moon Jae-in. And, she liked the fact that Park was a woman.

My friend did hint that I should keep her opinions on the down-low, lest she incur the wrath of other South Jeolla-ites.  

Fidel

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:

 I've never seen any Political parties that run on a get the USA/UN out platform ever really win any solid block of votes.  

Why do you think they were protesting at Gwangju in 1980? More than 2000 South Koreans were slaughtered for demanding democracy and the end of U.S. Military occupation of their country.

They didn't take a poll just started a killing frenzy in the streets. And this current president is the daughter of former US-backed military dictator of South Korea, Park Chung-hee in case South Korean voters forget to realize what kind of talent is running the show in their country where the military is armed to the eye teeth and past protests dealt with so harshly.

I suppose the Koreans don't slaughter them in the streets for protesting election results today like they used to in recent history, tho. Union leaders aren't so brazen about organizing like they once were. 

Korean democracy is tainted by the US Military occupation. Democracy and foreign military presence are two totally incompatible central ideas. Why is that so difficult to understand, Bec? It's like US Military occupations around the world. Karzai and his  criminal mujahideen government would we swept away by the USA's former proxies, the Taliban if it wasn't for the US Military occupation there.

Another example are the US-backed militaries in Latin America. Democracy in those countries was perverted by years of US aid and support for Latin America's militaries and training soldiers at the University of Terror aka School of the Americas where soldiers and officers were trained in the black arts of torture and murder. There was no intention to allow democracy to unfold in Central American countries for decades, and it's still the case in Honduras, El Salvador, Haiti etc ad nauseum.

Might some of the reason be that you yourself have become so used to living under a military dictatorship where the US Military commands the lion's share of annual government spending and project US power around the world as if imperialism and democracy are naturally synonymous if only in your own mind? Can you shed some light on that for us, because most babblers here do not understand where you're coming from?

voice of the damned

So you're saying that that there all these people in South Korea 2012 who would like to come out in favour of US troop withdrawal, but they don't do so because they're afraid the government will unleash another May 18th? I must say, that fear never seemed to stop the hundreds, if not thousands, of people who used to attend anti-US rallies in downtown Gwangju back in the early 2000s.

And this current president is the daughter of former US-backed military dictator of South Korea, Park Chung-hee.

I would certainly not claim that the ROK 2012 is the ultimate in human-rights utopianism(at least as long as the security-laws, however sporadically enforced, remain on the books). I don't think it's anything remotely like what it was under Park Chung Hee or Chun Doo Hwan, however. The fact that Park Geun Hye is the daughter of Park Chung Hee doesn't give her anywhere near the sort of power that he had.   

And for what it's worth, the leader of the Gwangju democracy movement, Kim Dae Jung, was president between 1997 and 2002, and his successor, Roh Moo Hyun, had also been a left-leaning activist during the democratization period. So no, things have changed a bit since 1980.

Fidel

South Americans were also allowed to elect leftists in recent years. It hasn't stopped the US Military dictatorship from sending millions of dollars in aid and weapons to Latin America's militaries in recent years. Why would the USA do this, VOTD?

What does US military aid and actual US military occupations of foreign countries have to do with democracy?

Why can't the US Military dictatorship trust Koreans to freely choose for themselves without the influence and perversion of democratic process by an actual foreign military occupation?

And sadly the answer is that like the doctor and the madman couldn't trust Chileans with democracy in the 1970's, the US Military dictatorship doesn't trust Koreans with democracy today, either.  The US Military occupation of Korea does have a purpose - and it is an imperialist agenda to ensure that the barbarians remain divided and conquered. Yes it is totally imperialist, and totally racist, to occupy a foreign country militarily, and it has nothing to do with democracy except for preventing outbreaks of democracy.

voice of the damned

South Americans were also allowed to elect leftists in recent years. It hasn't stopped the US Military dictatorship from sending millions of dollars in aid and weapons to Latin America's militaries in recent years. Why would the USA do this, VOTD?

To pursue their own interests, obviously. My point is that it might be possible that the majority of people in the ROK also think that the US presence serves the interests of the ROK as well.

And I'm not arguing that they're correct in this opinion. Just that I don't really know if there's a point in foreigners claiming to speak on behalf of what people in the ROK want, if I don't see evidence that that is in fact what they want.   

 

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