I realize that there have probably been a trillion threads about Libya, and that I'm very late to the party but I figured that I should add my thoughts to the discussion of this important issue. I apologize if some of the points I make have already been presented.
*ahem*
Moahmar Gadahfi (sp?) is a savage.I don't care how secular the man is, how many female bodyguards he has, or how anti American he is, the mad dog is indeed mad. He's a barbarian. Given that old Mo is such a nasty human being, the temptation is quite strong to endorse the American decision to Bomb Libya and to salute Obama in his attempt to assist the Libyan rebels.
However, the question that arises is, why are the Americans taking such an interest in the affairs of the Anti Gadahfi resistance? I mean, King Hamad is brutally suppressing the pro democracy movement in Bahrain and the U.S. hasn't batted an eye.
Some would argue that support for the Libyan opposition is all about oil and imperialism, but if it was all about empire, wouldn't the yanks have tried to shore up Moamar's existing police state, and sent in troops to "keep the peace"? If it was all about oil wouldn't the powers involved have a much clearer idea about what they want Libya's future to be?
Personally I think it's all about TV. Both Obama and sarkozy Run a fairly high risk of losing elections in their respective countries unless they do something drastic, like blowing up brown people. This would explain why their hasn't been an end game set out. They don't need one, they are causing explosions for the sake of publicity.
Events like wars usually have a conjunction of goals. Many things are being accomplished at once. The difficult thing, as in all social and political analysis, is to pull out the main thread. And that can be really difficult because: the participants routinely misrepresent their goals; because the fog of war hides the facts; and so on.
What you're talking about CMOT are political goals. And you're probably correct to some degree.
I would be more impressed if you could tie thse political goals to economic goals and then maybe not be quite so ahistorical and then tie a bow over the whole thing.
There's a few reasons that Bahrain, Yemen, Syria, Egypt and Tunisia got the "stop shooting at protesters and move for reforms" speech, and Libya got the military intervention.
Good reasons
1) The scale of Gaddafi's brutality has been much greater than that of the leaderships of the other countries. Though the treatment of protesters in the other nations has been deplorable, the regimes in these countries have largely started stepping aside before and have Gaddafi's regime has basically been indiscrimanantly shooting and shelling civilians through the conflict. Where dozens have been killed in other mid-east nations, thousands have died in Libya. Moreover, there were legitmate fears over the fate of cities like Bengazi, if he we're to have recaptured them.
2) Air support/military intervention in Libya is useful, where there is more or less a front line (unlike every other country), and armour and ground units are out in the open away from cities (again, unlike every other country), and air strikes were being used by the oppressing state (again, unlike every country)
Not so good sounding reasons, but things that must be agknowleged.
3) Gaddafi has no useful allies, in this kind of situation. The other arab dictators never really liked the guy. Cuba, Venezula, and Nicaragua are too insignificant in this theatre. Russia and China aren't willing to truly step in and stop this intervention.
On the other hand, Saudi Arabia has a big vested interest in not seeing reform take place on its borders, and we have some vested interest, unfortunately, in not pissing off the Gulf States.
Bad reasons
4) The TV play Libya is a brutal situation, but Cote d'Ivoire is in a pretty bad situation that could get worse (unelected leader won't step down, 800 killed there, so far). Granted, the UN actually already has ground forces down there. Its more a matter of reinforcing them.
5) Oil Libya has it. Darfur did not. Rwanda did not.
Without mentioning names here - if there's one thing I can't stand more than our snivelling, grovelling, vicious toadies to Uncle Sam in Ottawa - it's a junior toadie to a bunch of lap poodles. arf-arf!
Better to be froggies to places like cuba huh fidel;)
Ya wanna know the real reason behind the War on Libya, Iraq, al Qaida and all the other horrible Arab nasties?
Here you go:
Yup; The Sheikh. The whole War on Terror® is an exercise in penis envy: western males who feel they aren't UP to it and who feel the only way to prove their virility is to kill as many Arab males as posssible.
All other "political" analysis is just so much jacking off.
Ha y'got me with that ringer. It's said to be a very American characteristic to want to support the underdog in a given struggle, and so I am pro Cuba. In my midnight confessions, I tell all the world that I love them.
But how to you square yourself with performing out of the same bag of tricks? Are they dropping milkbones at the table leg?
Apparently the outhouse poet ran out of tricks in the Yemen thread. Your loyal obedience to the corrupt stoogeaucracy is duly noted. hehe
I think the Libyan Revolution caught the U.S.A. by surprise.
The U.S.A.'s (military) interfering in the affairs of Libya is a post de facto reaction.
The U.S.A. is hedging its bets by playing both sides in Libya.
It's a win-win situation.
When the war is over, whoever is left leading Libya will want to sell Libyan oil at or below market cost to pay for the war.
Uncle Sam will be the first in line to buy all that readily available oil.
Oh dear. I've visciously buggered myself haven't I? I have no credibility left. :(
Well, see you in the goodie groves!
And Al, Yes I'm sure you have a magnificent, albeit somewhat middle aged penis. Aren't hockey players supposed to be hung like bears?
[url=http://wsws.org/articles/2011/mar2011/hift-m30.shtml]American media silent on CIA ties to Libya rebel commander[/url]
Hmm, It takes money and typically a job to live in a "right to work" state like Virginia. No problem if you're working for the Langley boyz I guess.
And someone posted this in another thread about Libya:
[url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/840... rebel commander admits his fighters have al-Qaeda links[/color][/url]
Sword operators' operators operating Operation Libya?
Fidel, you really are a very strange human being...
Oh come on Elvis bin Laden and Qaeda are our friends same as the Nazis were. Don't ever fool yourself. We're the good guys! We should always choose to murder thousands in order to get to one man. It comes down to utilitarianism and Americanized world view. Always-always remember that. KoolAid anyone?
I would like to apologize to all and sundery for my supremely crappy analysis. If the people leading this coalition were just bombing for the sake of there political careers, they could have chosen any tyrant in the region to torment, Although it has to be said that the colonel is probably the best choice from a propaganda stand point.
If Obama tried to destroy the Assad regime with a sustained bombing campaign, the American public would probably feel sorry for Bashir. He looks like a character from a Jacque Tati movie.
Anyway......
The people behind the intervention are most probably more concerned about oil reserves then they are about democracy. I really am surprised at how poorly planned the current military intervention is.
*more to come...
........
When Bush and Company were preparing for the invasion of Iraq, they presented a very clear case for why they were going to lay waste to the cradle of civilization. The reason that the neo cons gave for subjugating the Iraqi people turned out to be garbage(there were no stockpiles of WMDs being stored in Saddam's bunkers), but the fact is a good chunk of the U. S. public believed Bush. The suits in Washington don't seem to be as determined this time around, and they don't seem to be squashing Gaddahfi as quickly as they squashed Saddam.
Probably, because they're stretched a little think thanks to the overreach of the Bush regime.
I was surprised how many people I knew got sucked right into going along with the bombing of Libya. I think it was the images of people begging for their lives.
Oh come on Elvis bin Laden and Qaeda are our friends same as the Nazis were. Don't ever fool yourself. We're the good guys! We should always choose to murder thousands in order to get to one man. It comes down to utilitarianism and Americanized world view. Always-always remember that. KoolAid anyone?
Look I am perfectly willing to submit that the Americans don't give a fuck about Libyan democracy and that Moammar Gadahfi is but one of many savage tyrants the west has supported in the Middle East over the years.
However, Does opposing the U.S. military industrial complex neccesarly mean demonizing the Libyan opposition, and idolizing Gaddahfi as a freedom fighter?
Fidel, I am very much afraid that if Mubarak had been an anti U.S. tyrant, you would have been attacking the protesters in Tahrir square a couple of months back.
Probably, because they're stretched a little think thanks to the overreach of the Bush regime.
I was surprised how many people I knew got sucked right into going along with the bombing of Libya. I think it was the images of people begging for their lives.
It's hard not to adopt a wildwest attitude to the conflict(whether you are in fact pro intervention or anti intervention) when you ar sitting thousands of miles away from the battlefields of the Libyian civil war.
I think Gadhafi's statement that he would show the rebs "no mercy" was a dumb move. He should have known that blood for oil hounds and the UN and even the frickin NDP in Bananada would pick up on that. Dumb, stupid move on his part. I don't particularly enjoy Gadhafi or his ways, but still this attack on Libya has nothing to do with democracy. It's about the oil and getting China's state oil company out of Africa. It's neocolonial maneuvering. Blood for oil hounds are in total conflict with democratic principles any way you look at it.
Fidel, if you were Libyan would you fight for Moammar Gaddahfi?
If so, why.
Mubarak had no one out on the streets protesting in his favour. No one willing to form a human line of defence around any one of his dozen or so palatial homes.
Question:
If Egyptians were to carry on with armed attacks on government troops loyal to the Egyptian oligarchy, would you agree to a US-led attack on them to put down an armed insurrection? (As if that would ever happen.)
Who armed Libyan rebs? And who is now training and arming Lib-Qaeda and rebs to attack Ronald Reagan's old nemesis, Moammar Gadhafi and Libyans loyal to his government?
Why are blood for oil hounds not interested in protecting the lives of wounded protesters in Yemen similarly? Bahraini dictators get Saudi military help, too, and it's not to protect pro democracy demonstrators.
I would fight the foreign invaders and US-backed al-Qaeda. I would defend innocent bystanders and myself from would-be oiligarchs on the rampage and anyone else out to liberate me and my people from our birth right to exist.
I don't think it takes much effort to 'demonize' the rebels considering all the reports of their executing prisoners and the hospitalized based on how 'African' they look.
Honestly, I think Gaddahfi would have had a much harder time if the West hadn't given him the enormous propaganda tool of 'defense against foreign intervention.' I think we hurt their democracy movement which is a real shame, especially because it's so clearly much stronger than the movement here.
P.S. Ronald Regan is in fact dead. The cold war is over.
I would fight the foreign invaders and US-backed al-Qaeda.
There is some question as to whether Al Q is a threat, to anybody.
This uprising began whithout US support. The yanks came along after it started and gave some assistance, but it's worth noting that even with the aerial bombardment the rebels are still getting there asses handed to them. Which begs the question, does the west really want the opposition to win?
If Egyptians were to carry on with armed attacks on government troops loyal to the Egyptian oligarchy, would you agree to a US-led attack on them to put down an armed insurrection? (As if that would ever happen.)
Nope.
I would fight the foreign invaders and US-backed al-Qaeda. I would defend innocent bystanders and myself from would-be oiligarchs on the rampage and anyone else out to liberate me and my people from our birth right to exist.
So if Moammar Gaddahfi(a plutocrat who has run his country as a police state for the past 42 years, about 15 of those years with yankee support) were to say, I will defend your homeland, you would follow him?
I don't think it takes much effort to 'demonize' the rebels considering all the reports of their executing prisoners and the hospitalized based on how 'African' they look.
Honestly, I think Gaddahfi would have had a much harder time if the West hadn't given him the enormous propaganda tool of 'defense against foreign intervention.' I think we hurt their democracy movement which is a real shame, especially because it's so clearly much stronger than the movement here.
Ah, I did not know that.:(
What happened to the peaceful activists who started the uprising? Did Mo kill them all?
Are you saying that Murder Inc doesn't carry vendettas? What about George I, Maggie and Rummy's trist with their good friend Saddam Hussein whom they stabbed in the back millions of times from 1991-2003? Those three and the CIA expedited weapons deals with Saddam involving General Pinochet's people in Chile, an apartheid regime in South Africa, a good friend of Barry Goldwater's in Canadian Gerald Bull, and a host of their excellent friends in European NATO countries. You can imagine the confusion among their Saudi sheikh friends advised by them to help out Saddam as much as possible whilst they in turn helped weaponize the Ayatollah's "revolutionary" regime in Iran.
Yes the cold war is supposed to be over. The Sovs ceding the cold war took them totally by surprise. The war crims and their allies are still totally lacking in imagination as to the prospects for world peace and prosperity. The possibilities are way, way beyond their comprehension.
I'd write "whoosh," but you'd probably misinterpret its meaning.
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Al-Q is the USA's creation. They are not real and yet they are. There is no such thing as al-Qaeda "the foreign threat to US national security". "al-Qaeda" is really al-CIA'da since the 1980s war of annihilation against secular socialism in Central Asia.
So, no, I didn't say that. I said I would fight the foreign invaders and the British and US-backed "al-Qaeda".
When I was a child, Sesame Street on TV had this song that went like this:
"One of These Things Is Not Like the Others One of These Things Just Doesn't Belong Can You Tell Which Thing Is Not Like the Others By The Time I Finish My Song?...."
There are people in Libya today who just weren't born there and haven't filled out the proper paperwork, like the Homeland Stupidity Feds insist we do when crossing our NAFTA border for the secure siphoning off of Canadian oil while blocking the free-flow of undesirables looking for a bargain on their side.
Question:
If some guys are trained by a foreign government's intelligence agency and special forces to commit acts of terrorism, hijacking planes etc, and today that some other country's President admits to their special forces training and arming them to attack Steve Harper's regime, would you support those seditious acts aided and abetted by two fascist foreign governments in London and Warshington, CMOT Dibbler?
I enjoy playing Devil's advocate, too. ha ha
First the unarmed peaceful protestors persuaded the Army to stop killing and join them.
When the Army joined the People, the People now had arms.
The People and their Army allies used the arms to defend themselves from being murdered by the state.
Self-defense is something they had every right to do.
At that point, the People realized that it was either them or Gadhafi.
Having overcome and dispelled their fear, the People are fighting to liberate themselves.
VIVA LA REVOLUCION LIBERTARIA!!!!!
French journalists are reporting that they have no real leadership worth mentioning.
[url=http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/opinion/who-are-these-libya... are these Libyan rebels?[/url]
The young rebels are often trigger happy desperados shooting at random and often high on hashish. Apparently the drugs are supplied by the same people sending them food rations. Hmm, what two western world intelligence agencies are synonymous with running guns and drugs?
Are you saying that Murder Inc doesn't carry vendettas?
Come on, the neo cons aren't that petty. Brutal yes, petty no.
Bush and co. invaded Iraq for oil and to secure Israel's position in the middle east, not because Saddam jilted Rummy at a dinner party in Paris in 1983.
If this current intervention is all about a conflict the U.S. had with Moamar in 1986, why didn't they destroy his regime earlier on? Why did they apend the 90s sucking up to him?
Al-Q is the USA's creation. They are not real and yet they are. There is no such thing as al-Qaeda "the foreign threat to US national security". "al-Qaeda" is really al-CIA'da since the 1980s war of annihilation against secular socialism in Central Asia.
No. the CIA funded the mujahadin, which faught the soviet occupation of Afganistan, an occupation that was all about soviet authoritarianism and had nothing to socialism.
It was Osama bin Laden, that incredibly intelligent, charasmatic and wealthy religious wackjob who founded Al Q. Surprise! The Arabs are able to do things by themselves without CIA backing.
If some guys are trained by a foreign government's intelligence agency and special forces to commit acts of terrorism, hijacking planes etc, and today that some other country's President admits to their special forces training and arming them to attack Steve Harper's regime, would you support those seditious acts aided and abetted by two fascist foreign governments in London and Warshington, CMOT Dibbler?
If the CIA is training the rebels, why are they loosing? If this is indeed the final act of a secret war that started when I was 5, why aren't the yanks better prepared?
Has Obama admitted to sending operatives to Libya to train opposition fighters?
The young rebels are often trigger happy desperados shooting at random and often high on hashish.
How the heck do you know that?
Gadhafi let Exxon and BP into the country to drill oil. Prolly his first mistake as the hounds that sniff oil got a taste of how cheap a barrel of oil is to produce in Libya. And then Gadhafi paid the ransom money for NATO's sword operation aka the Lockerbie bombing.
And, they couldn't care less about Israelis except to use the country as forward operating military base. They plan to abandon Israel at some point after hundreds of new bases are secured in Iraq and Afghanistan. The CIA itself produced reports describing Israel as an unviable Israeli nation state within so many years. But the hawks couldn't care less about the actual people living there, whoever they might be in coming decades. At some point Israel will be left to its own devices to negotiate with what will be a neighborhood of nuclear-armed enemy nations. And Israel's enemies will likely purchase nuclear weapons tech from corrupt US state dept officials on the black market as was the case with cold war ally Pakistan according to US whistleblowers in recent years.
No. the CIA funded the mujahadin, which faught the soviet occupation of Afganistan, an occupation that was all about soviet authoritarianism and had nothing to socialism.
Ah yes, "blowback". That's a CIA myth according to the evidence since 1992.
No, according to Canadian John Ryan and others, not even the CIA blamed the Sovs for what was a peoples revolution to overthrow a corrupt imperialist regime in Kabul. The CIA has since admitted to aiding and abetting Afghan drug barons and some of the worst scum of the earth in Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, Rabanni, Dostum, bin Laden and so on. The CIA's story is that they severed all ties with these war crims after 1992. The evidence says otherwise.
And, lo', the Gladio Gang Inc. are still aiding and abetting al-Qaeda in Libya today. al-Qaeda were never there in Saddam's Iraq. Not until after the Luftwaffe bombing of Baghdad. And then it was al-CIA'da and other US-backed Sunni radicals attacking the true anti-American insurgents.
al-Qaeda = al-CIA'da/al-MI6'da
Not according to Pakistani news journalists and left wing political commentators. Operation Cyclone was the largest covert operation in the history of US shadow government. bin Laden and Bush families are well connected to each other and to a few more noteworthies there in America.
I hate to say it but you've been a human sponge for the cold and now colder war propaganda. You are part of a new generation of young people who are mind-fucked by an invisible enemy, a colder war army of darkness that doesn't exist except on the CIA's and British MI6's payroll.
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Nightmares][color=blue]The Power of Nightmares[/color][/url]
Just like Gadaffi claimed? Just a bunch of druggies, nothing to see here, that sort of thing?
CMOT Dibbler wrote: "No. the CIA funded the mujahadin, which faught the soviet occupation of Afganistan, an occupation that was
all about soviet authoritarianism and had nothing to socialism."
"Hushtory"= 'The redoing of history in way that makes rightwingers happy and gets into record to confuse and mislead seekers after truth etc
How is it in the 1970s, until the gop fascasti took advantage of Jimmy Carter's troubles with rightwing pigmedia and thus Carter's distraction, began pouring money to rightwing 'muhajadeen' aka 'taliban' in order to force poor old USSR, which benign-neglected Afghanistan as part of the Soviet 'theatre' (with agreement of west)
how is it that under SOVIET CONTROL Afghanistan was one of freest countries on earth (almost everyone must knows someone who lived there in those days- the expat ie 'white' community numbered over 35000 people...john MacDonald based a book in Afghanistan, where his hero tracked down an heiress kidnapped by hippie drug dealers (?)...)
Yet, here someone can say boldly that 'Soviet authoritarianism' which, btw, was triggered by the attempted overrthrow of government by western funded Islamofascists. So, the mister pigs wins simply by lying, boldly and with out restraint. after all, who gives a darn
Yes, and just like French news journalists are reporting today.
As in, Murder Inc. has dealt with the devil before nothing new that sort of thing.
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vang_Pao]Vang Pao[/url] and other sleazy people.
I have read as much as I can from on the ground reports and it seems to me the truth lies somewhere in the grey area between the Gaddafi view and the hero worship. I see a country where people want to have freedom and everyone is fucking them over for fun and profit. Without even an election the economic levers of the country are being turned over to people from america. If it smells like a rat it likely is a rat. Cheering for the rube at the fairgrounds is not really helpful if you know the game is rigged.
Look at what Karzai has brought to Afghanistan. How many lives have we saved in that viscous civil war or has our presence merely lengthened it for as long as we prop up one side? I have no belief in NATO's ability to help the LIbyan people achieve democracy because of our track record in Afghanistan.
Civil war is always brutal and nasty and only the business of the people themselves. That is why NATO has no place interfering. Seems to me the air strikes in the end will only strengthen the dictator's grip as the Libyan people have a deep and very warranted hatred of imperialism. I am sure that in the discourse going on in Tripoli the symbolism of the planes coming from Italy wasn't lost on many.
Hey Bec, Al Jazeera reports the 'Rebels' are now sporting brand new toys, including state of the art Katyusha rocket thingys mounted on their rat-patrol vehicles. This was previously reported and posted to the Libya thread - the new bang-bangs came from Egypt and the AQ were trained in their use at an undisclosed location in eastern Libya.
I'd smoke hash too if I had to fight a tank with a machine gun mounted on a pick-up truck... just saying...
Yeah I mentioned about that over on the other thread; that's only the beginning... what till they get good anti tank missiles.
I just looked over at Al Jazeera and couldn't find anything... you got a link by chance?
Okay quiet everybody while CMOT consults his history book printed in Texaw, or perhaps NY or even VA.
Why does it stink in here? Like the smell of someone secretly rooting for the dictator?
Yep, it sure does stink like hell. Pee-U!
[url=http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=24126]Mounting Evidence of CIA Ties to Libyan Rebels[/url]
So do we support the rebels high on Air America's hashish and shootin up the place, their friends in the CIA plus the US-backed al-Qaeda against Gadhafi in an African country that has the highest HDI on the continent before this NATO sword operation began, or what?
how is it that under SOVIET CONTROL Afghanistan was one of freest countries on earth (almost everyone must knows someone who lived there in those days- the expat ie 'white' community numbered over 35000 people...john MacDonald based a book in Afghanistan, where his hero tracked down an heiress kidnapped by hippie drug dealers (?)...)
Bullshit.
If Libya has a high HDI score now, wait until the corrupt dictator is gone.
This isn't an endorsement of any foreign intervention, but you bet I'm rooting for the rebels.
And you, Fidel? Rebels, or dictator?
I for one support the rebels... and if there's some CIA and al-Qaeda in the mix so be it. You have to use what you got to win; although I'm not happy about it getting the big boys on the block (NATO and the West) on your side is one way to do it. It's not like they are so prevalent (al-Qaeda) they have control of the revolution.
I think it should be babble policy not to support al-CIA'duh terrorism in another country. What do you think? What's your personal wisdom on the matter?
I didn't ask whether you support the CIA, I asked whether you support the rebels, or the dictator.
I'll just put you down for "dictator", but feel free to correct me. And hey, you're in "good" company! Chavez supports the dictator! Castro supports the dictator! Mugabe supports the dictator! All the dictators support the dictator.
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