N Korea shells S Korean Island

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jacki-mo
N Korea shells S Korean Island

North Korea shelled a South Korean Island, killing one person. What are they up to?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20101123/wl_afp/nkoreaskoreamilitarynuclearw...

 

Snert Snert's picture

Perhaps it's a rite of passage for New Dear Leader.  A boy's first act of military aggression.

Liang Jiajie

A show of force by a regime at its most vulnerable time -- changing of the guard -- to demonstrate to the outside world that it's still alive and kicking.  This response to South Korea's naval exercises near disputed waters, though, is too much.

jacki-mo

Could this intensify to become a serious conflagration? Is that perhaps what the North wants for some reason?

voice of the damned

"Could this intensify to become a serious conflagration? Is that perhaps what the North wants for some reason?"

As the person on babble who would be most directly impacted by any such conflagaration, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that I don't anticipate this latest incident leading to any sort of existential crisis on the Korean peninsula.

I've lost track of the number of inter-Korean crises that have taken place since I got here(this includes things with a civilian death toll, which didn't seem to make the news much outside of Korea). And what's happened in the last ten years pales besides some of the stuff that went on during the Cold War, when, among other things, both sides tried to assassinate each other's leaders(the North Koreans actually killed the First Lady of South Korea during one such attempt).

But hey. If I end up fleeing for my life in the next some time in the next few days, I'll be sure to post my mea culpa from Incheon Airport. Assuming it's still standing.

Caissa

Coincidentally, I received promotional material in the mail today for recruiting students to teach in Korea.

Liang Jiajie

It's unlikely this exchange between the two will unfold into war because both the United State and China won't support their respective allies if that's what the Koreas want to do.  Since this attack coincides with the North's recent announcement that it built a new uranium enrichment facility, it's likely telling the South and the rest of the world to back away.  It's a big risk to take, but the North probably supposes that launching a war against it is too risky for the South to do because of the presence of China and the United States, two states that don't want to fight a war against each other.  So we are likely to see China flex its muscle to discipline or placate the North once again.

kropotkin1951

A good translation of this non-American news source.  Holding provocative military exercises on disputed territory is always the sign of peace loving nations. Poke a stick at you opponents eyes and when they respond vilify them.  So when are they planning the regime change and how many hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians will Haliburton murder this time?

Quote:

North Korea fired large-caliber guns Enphendo island in the Yellow Sea. The Enphendo Island locates north of 38-parallel line but is controlled the South Korean military. The coastal part of the island in flames because of the residential buildings. Eyewitnesses say that the South Korea military recommend people to flee their homes. Many flee away from the island by boat. North Korea says Enphendo its territory. Some experts say the attack was the message to the provocative US and South Korea military exercises in the coastal waters. 
According to various estimates, the island was released from 80 to 200 rounds. In this case, a man was killed and 14 injured.
What happens at the adjacent area and whether the dead by the DPRK is still unknown. At the moment, according to eyewitnesses, there was a lull. Nevertheless, both sides brought their armed forces in high alert.
Now Seoul is held an emergency meeting with ministers of the country's president. Earlier, the head of state instructed to prevent the escalation of armed conflict on the border.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuncbujiMAE

A_J

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Quote:

 The Enphendo Island locates north of 38-parallel line 

Not really - it's actually at 37° 40′ 0″ N125° 41′ 47″ E.

Not that the 38th parallel marks the border between the Republic of Korea and the Democratic People's Republic of Korea anyways - the Demarcation Line runs roughly south west to north east, with some of the DPRK south of the 38th parallel and the some of the ROK north of it.

Snert Snert's picture

[url=http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/895212--north-south-korea-exch...'s OK folks,[/url] the UN has condemned it.

 

That should put a swift end to this.

kropotkin1951

Aj

I am not a geographer so are you telling me that the NY Times article was wrong?   Could it be that the line runs through the island?

I love the coverage though, the homes were "civilian" on an island were there is nothing but a military base and its civilian support staff.  The island is in dispute and has been since the UN gave it unilaterally to the South.

kropotkin1951

Snert wrote:

[url=http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/895212--north-south-korea-exch...'s OK folks,[/url] the UN has condemned it.

 

That should put a swift end to this.

I am sure N. Corea will listen to this UN resolution in the same way that Israel does when the UN condemns it.  Nasty oppressors never listen to criticism because they know god and the angels are on their side.

A_J

kropotkin1951 wrote:
I am not a geographer so are you telling me that the NY Times article was wrong?

I thought you were quoting some un-named "non-American news source".  But if the New York Times also said the island was north of the 38th parallel, it would also be incorrect.

kropotkin1951 wrote:
Could it be that the line runs through the island?

The 38th parallel would run some 20 miles to the north, so the island is clearly south of it.

kropotkin1951 wrote:
I love the coverage though, the homes were "civilian" on an island were there is nothing but a military base and its civilian support staff.

What are you trying to say - that it's okay for North Korea to attack civilian workers in South Korea, and destroy their homes?

kropotkin1951

Thanks AJ, I can see from your answer you are not open to reading anything some people post because of your presumption it would be from a "non-American" news source. Only reading sources that support your world view is not my style.  I much prefer to get a balanced overview rather than merely the propaganda we are feed in the west. North Korea is a brutal dictatorship but that doesn't change the fact that the nastiest nation on the planet is engaged in ongoing poking and prodding of them for maximum effect.  I refuse to be sucked in by the Fox style reporting from the American empire but you or anyone else is free to lap it up and form your opinions based on biased journalism.

To be clear what I am saying is that civilian support staff for the military living in a disputed territory are also universal soldiers not innocent bystanders.

A_J

kropotkin1951 wrote:

. . . your presumption it would be from a "non-American" news source . . .

No "presumption" needed - you yourself described it as a "non-American news source" (actually, that's all you described it as).  My honest confusion is over what the New York Times has to do with this, since you weren't quoting that publication - only some undefined "non-American news source".

Of course, somehow you managed to turn this into an opportunity to pat yourself on the back for your open-mindedness and accuse everyone else of being Fox News-consuming drones. *Shrug*

kropotkin1951 wrote:
To be clear what I am saying is that civilian support staff for the military living in a disputed territory are also universal soldiers not innocent bystanders.

Thank you for your frank answer.

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

 

@kropotkin1951, look we all know you hate the USA and all that stuff but quit trying to make excuses for the North in this situation. North and South Korea have been doing military exercises in that area since the war cooled down and there's nothing provocative about them unless they want to make them so... like North Korea just did. The island of Yeonpyeong is South Korean territory as dictated by the UN Security Council (look at the map); just because the North disputes it (and you don't like it) doesn't give them the right to shot artillery at it because they don't like what the South Korean military is doing there.

Yeah, they hit the evil imperialist military installation there, but they also hit the civilian town as well.

Yeonpyeong Island is renowned for its Kumouuri - a specialty spiced crab unavailable elsewhere in South Korea and is the home to over 1200 people; mostly crab fisherman and their families. Now dozens of their homes are burning to the ground. Maybe you should go there with a bull horn and tell them to get the fuck off North Korean soil. I'm sure they'd be happy to give you a sample of some of those spicy crabs...Wink

 

  

 It wasn't a totally one sided fight by the way; that military installation recovered from the initial attack and fired back with its own artillery, soon after that the NK guns fell silent. Counter fire can be a real bitch, that K9 155mm SPG is no slacker.

 

kropotkin1951

Sorry Aj I was thinking of a quote in another thread about income inequality.  As sometimes happens when I post in two threads I get a little confused and we seem to have picked up a number of new trolls today and yesterday so thus my response to you that was inappropriate to what you had written.

kropotkin1951

Bec I hate imperialism but the reason I save my venom for the USA is because they claim to speak on my behalf.  North korea has not told me they are fighting to protect MY way of life only Amerika is that fucking arrogant. It is our western news coverage that vilifies american enemies for the same thing that their allies do that really pisses me off.  So when was the last time  in a thread you were critical of a western power for their military raids on civilian targets?   I wish that the imperialist war games had not put this village at risk although I have read reports that what was hit was the base and the houses directly around it.  

If it was the other way around our biased press would be complaining that the North Koreans were using civilians as shields [you know like Hezbollah when Israel invaded] and thus committing a war crime.  So is South Korea using civilians shields as cover for their occupation of disputed territory?

Spin and propaganda is merely spin and propaganda.

Sven Sven's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I am not a geographer so are you telling me that the NY Times article was wrong?

Good Lord...could it be that the NY Times is <gasp> wrong about something?!?  It's hard to even contemplate such a thing...

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Nobody can speak for yourself exept you... some may think they can but they are mistaken.

That island is owned, not occupied by South Korea; don't confuse it with other parts of the world. The people who live there are not shields, if anything the military is the shield (I know that turned a few guts here....LOL) As I said before most of the civilians there are fishermen, and have lived there for generations caching crabs and other fish.

I'm not as fiery or as theatrical in expressing myself as some of you are here; me saying "dropping bombs on that building in that situation was wrong" is equal to one of your two paragraph rants about cooperate stooges ass raping cows and killing babies in their cribs with flamethrowers and all that other stuff you like to throw in for extra effect. One man uses a sentence and another uses a paragraph to say the same thing. I'm good with that. You don't really see me railing about civilian casulties do you? I just mentioned them becouse it seems to me you thought they were "fair game" becouse they supported the military.

By the way some of my info is coming from my wife; she's at home watching Korean satellite TV; believe me they have much better coverage. It looks like the South Korean death toll is going to rise; several of the wounded are in pretty bad shape. The fire is also spreading on the island and the civilians are upset the fire department was slow getting out of the bomb shelters and onto their trucks(no shit) also many of them also evacuated off the island.

For the most part this is over; the next move is up to North Korea. There will also be more military drills; the South Korean military will n ot be intimidated into quitting what they started... I can believe it, Koreans are a proud and stubborn people, I should know, I'm married to one. 

 

wdsaddasd

The 38th Parallel is not the boundary between North and South Korea. The armistice after the Korean War produced the DMZ that runs north of the 38th Parallel in the East and dips down below the 38th Parallel in the west.

The entire incident is nothing but a pointless act of aggression by North Korea. I feel bad for the murdered innocent civilians and South Korean Marines who where on the island defending their country.

Caissa

I think it is only a matter of time before this war becomes hot again and what wasn't finished in 1953 is finished. The wildcards will be the US and China.

nussy

The US and China have too much to lose and very little to gain from an armed conflict. As long as they allow a mad man in North Korea to dictate to the rest of the world things will simmer.

Don't forget about Japan and Russia....they both have alot to lose if there is an armed conflict. 

Snert Snert's picture

It probably serves Dear Leader's interests better to have a constant enemy at the gate than it would to let the enemy in and get a total beatdown. 

Fidel

The US Military is only there at the Peninsula Club since the 1950s to enforce regional peace and democracy. And N. Korea is free to trade freely with the rest of the world without political interference from any country.[/sarcasm]

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

LaughingFidel still can't figure out why the US and UN are still in Korea... Oh well.

Anyways...

 

I'm a bit surprised at this... these are parts of of the artillery rounds NK fired, they are the rocket motor for a free flight artillery rocket not an cannon artillery shell. For those of you who don't know cannon artillery is much more accurate than rocket artillery; especially at longer ranges like these guys were firing. Rocket artillery is more an area fire weapon. No wonder they were hitting all over the island. The ROK army fired back with K9 self propelled artillery guns; a much more accurate artillery system.

 

Fidel

The">http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/24/world/asia/24korea.html?_r=2&hp]The North blamed the South for starting the exchange; the South acknowledged firing test shots in the area but denied that any had fallen in the North’s territory.

That's what the S. Koreans get for amassing 70,000 troops along the border and firing shots North Korea's way?

Perhaps the news headlines might be more informative if they stated some facts in their propaganda rags for a change. SOmething like,

'DPRK on high alert after US-backed South Korean Military Regime Mobilizes 70,000 Troops and Shells DPRK'

...or something as informative and not so spastic as the Yahoos who wrote the Yahoo newz diddy. 

Cueball Cueball's picture

Everyone is clear on the fact that the South Korean's fired first, right?

Quote:
The skirmish began when North Korea warned the South to halt military drills near their sea border, according to South Korean officials. When Seoul refused and fired artillery into disputed waters - away from the North Korean shore - the North retaliated by shelling Yeonpyeong, which houses South Korean military installations as well as civilians.

Facts buried in the fine print.

Snert Snert's picture

Quote:
That's what the S. Koreans get for amassing 70,000 troops along the border and firing shots North Korea's way?

According to the post above you, ROK shot at some water. Then, to show that nobody shoots THEIR water, NK killed some humans.

And that's assuming, of course, that it even IS their water. When a nation claims that its leader is a divine being born under a double rainbow then I tend to take pretty much any claim of theirs with a grain of salt the size of a shoebox.

Cueball Cueball's picture

According to the South Korean army, yes they shot at some water. For all you know that means they missed their target. The record is clear. Live fire was begun by the South Koreans.

kropotkin1951

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:

I'm not as fiery or as theatrical in expressing myself as some of you are here; me saying "dropping bombs on that building in that situation was wrong" is equal to one of your two paragraph rants about cooperate stooges ass raping cows and killing babies in their cribs with flamethrowers and all that other stuff you like to throw in for extra effect. 

Post a quote or apologize for your unfounded nasty bitter personal attack.  I say a lot of things about the evil empire but I don't ever remember anything that includes rape analogies or killing babies in their cribs with flame throwers.  I think you are confusing me with the American spin media in the lead up o the first Iraqi war.  They claimed the false killing babies story to vilify the people the country they were about to invade. 

Cueball Cueball's picture

Quote:
"This speaks to a bigger picture here that certainly scares me in terms of our national security policy. But obviously we've gotta stand with our North Korean allies."

Sarah Palin

 

nussy

Sarah Palen and Glen Beck scare me more than the leaders of North Korea.

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

Cueball wrote:

Quote:
"This speaks to a bigger picture here that certainly scares me in terms of our national security policy. But obviously we've gotta stand with our North Korean allies."

Sarah Palin

 

Wow - that is both hilarious and sad all at once.

Caissa

It's a shared thing for cults of personality, Boom Boom.

Snert Snert's picture

Quote:
According to the South Korean army, yes they shot at some water. For all you know that means they missed their target.
 

Sure, if their REAL target was some other water a mile further east. 

Every time babblers go all out to defend Dear Leader, I wonder if it's Free Dominion's birthday or something. 

Cueball Cueball's picture

Defend what? It entirely obvious that the military exercises were a massive provocation. Was there any need to do training at this particular part of the Korean peninsula, except to draw a reaction. North Korea repeatedly warned South Korean not to do this, and then South Korea started engaging in live fire. North Korea replied with directed fire at South Korean targets.

You actually expect me to believe that the South Korean government was completely clueless about how North Korea would react?

kropotkin1951

Quote:

The skirmish began when North Korea warned the South to halt military drills near their sea border, according to South Korean officials. When Seoul refused and fired artillery into disputed waters — away from the North Korean shore — the North retaliated by shelling Yeonpyeong, which houses South Korean military installations as well as civilians.

Seoul responded by unleashing its own barrage from K-9 155 mm self-propelled howitzers and scrambling fighter jets.

Officials in Seoul said there could be considerable North Korean casualties but the exact toll wasn’t clear Wednesday.

Poke the opponent and see if they will respond.  Too bad we will never know the casualty count on the other North's side.  

China will not allow the North to be subsumed by the South and for good reason.  Unification with the North under a US backed South means that the US troop can be do their friendly maneuvers with their allies along the Chinese border itself.  Now that of course would not be a US provocation but merely military exercises between friendly nations.  I hate it when big boys with big weapons play chicken with each other.  The people always lose.

 

Snert Snert's picture

Quote:
Defend what? It entirely obvious that the military exercises were a massive provocation.

 

Let's remember that if someone ever fires a rocket at some Israeli water.

 

Quote:
North Korea repeatedly warned South Korean not to do this

 

How does one say "You're not the boss of me" in Korean?

 

Quote:
You actually expect me to believe that the South Korean government was completely clueless about how North Korea would react?

 

I'm sure they expected some kind of irrational, swaggering, dick-waving nonsense from Dear Leader -- as we all do -- but to expect that conducting military exercises would result in civilians being shelled? Somehow I doubt that. Yes, I know I'm showing a marked bias for the rational side over the totally delusional side, but there you go.  

Cueball Cueball's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Quote:

The skirmish began when North Korea warned the South to halt military drills near their sea border, according to South Korean officials. When Seoul refused and fired artillery into disputed waters — away from the North Korean shore — the North retaliated by shelling Yeonpyeong, which houses South Korean military installations as well as civilians.

Seoul responded by unleashing its own barrage from K-9 155 mm self-propelled howitzers and scrambling fighter jets.

Officials in Seoul said there could be considerable North Korean casualties but the exact toll wasn’t clear Wednesday.

Poke the opponent and see if they will respond.  Too bad we will never know the casualty count on the other North's side.  

China will not allow the North to be subsumed by the South and for good reason.  Unification with the North under a US backed South means that the US troop can be do their friendly maneuvers with their allies along the Chinese border itself.  Now that of course would not be a US provocation but merely military exercises between friendly nations.  I hate it when big boys with big weapons play chicken with each other.  The people always lose.

 

Yes, the whole point of provoking this retaliation is to create a justification for bringing in a US carrier into the gulf so that the Americans can judge the Chinese naval response to that.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

[url=http://www.democracynow.org/2010/11/24/tim_shorrock_direct_talks_with_no... Now[/url]:

TIM SHORROCK: You're always kind of surprised when these things happen. But in the context of the last 50 years, it is not really that surprising, particularly if you look at the maritime zone and particularly if you look at the history of U.S.-South Korean military and its standoff with the North Korean regime. First of all, over the last few years, there has increasing tensions over this zone. As I said, this border area in the sea, this border line was imposed unilaterally by the U.S. Navy in 1953 right after the Korean war. That line has never been recognized by North Korea, nor by the international community. A few years ago, under the former presidency of Roh Moo-Hyun, there was actually a meeting, a summit meeting, between the president of South Korea and Kim Jong Il, the dictator of North Korea. They sat down and worked out sort of a set of agreements to try to decrease tensions in that maritime area, including the making of free fishing zones and having discussions to alleviate the [tension] to make sure there were no incidents like this. This new president Lee is a very conservative man who has rejected the former sunshine policies of Kim Dae-Jung and his predecessor, who were much more open and tried to cement closer relationships and end the enmity between North and South Korea. Lee unilaterally pulled away from this agreement. And over the last few years, our listeners and watchers will remember, there have been quite a few incidents. Earlier this year, in March 2010, a South Korean naval ship was blown up allegedly by North Korea by a torpedo and sank, killing about 33 sailors. This was also a very serious incident. And many people who watch North Korea believe that that particular attack, if North Korea did it, was in retaliation for an incident that took place last year when South Korea fired on a North Korean ship that had crossed the line and many North Korean sailors were killed in that attack. And so you know this has been going on. I think the first thing that needs to be done is it would be important to restore some kind of discussion, some kind of negotiation so they can reduce tensions in that specific area. (emphasis added)

Cueball Cueball's picture

You can always tell that someone is losing an argument on the internet when they break down your post into decontextualized chunks and try and refute eash point in detail. Usually, none of that has anything to do with the whole point.

The South Koreans know as well as the North Koreans that live fire artillery does not generally have the capacity to distinguish between civilians and military personnel. They knew quite well that civilians might be at risk. The fact that you think that artillery is a precision weapon indicates that you know absolutely nothing.

The response was entirely predicatable and calculated into the excersize. In fact border excersizes are designed to provoke a military reaction. That is part of the excersize. They are testing the capabilities of the response. In turn they get to direct attacks against military tragets inside North Korea, now knowing the locations, and responses of the defenders, including the scramble response time of jet fighters and so on and so forth.

 

Snert Snert's picture

This is a curious and genuine question:  what border IS recognized by the international community?

Le T Le T's picture

Quote:
Let's remember that if someone ever fires a rocket at some Israeli water.

I agree. We should remember that the US/G8/Snert do not consider massive military exercises using live fire in disputed territory by the worlds largest military to be provocation. Therefore considering a homemade rocket fired into the ocean provocation would be absurd.

Snert Snert's picture

Quote:
We should remember that the US/G8/Snert do not consider massive military exercises using live fire in disputed territory by the worlds largest military to be provocation.

 

China?

Cueball Cueball's picture

NATO.

Fidel

Snert wrote:

Quote:
That's what the S. Koreans get for amassing 70,000 troops along the border and firing shots North Korea's way?

According to the post above you, ROK shot at some water. Then, to show that nobody shoots THEIR water, NK killed some humans.

And that's assuming, of course, that it even IS their water. When a nation claims that its leader is a divine being born under a double rainbow then I tend to take pretty much any claim of theirs with a grain of salt the size of a shoebox.

And remember that the next time 70,000 guys wearing helmets fire artillery shells in your direction. No shooting back.

Unionist

South Korea & United States = GOOD.

North Korea & lots of others = BAD.

Why is this so frickin' complicated?

 

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Cueball wrote:

According to the South Korean army, yes they shot at some water. For all you know that means they missed their target. The record is clear. Live fire was begun by the South Koreans.

 

Cueball come on man, I know you're smarter than thisSmile.

The South Koreans were doing a scheduled training drill the North Koreans knew about (but didn't like and demanded SK to cancel) It involved practice artillery gunnery where SK artillery units were firing in the opposite direction from North Korea out to sea. You're assertion that the SK units fired on NK and missed their targets (thus starting the engagement) is pretty, I don't know, crazy and I hope it's from your lack of knowledge about how artillery units train and other things military. Please understand I'm not poking fun at you or anybody else here for not understanding this.

Again a little class on modern artillery for those of you who don't know much about it: Artillery doesn't need a physical target to hit during target practice to see how accurate it is, it just has to hit a grid location on the map (out at sea in this case). Also, in Korea, most all weapons gunnery ranges fire south, I spent two tours there on tanks and our tank gunnery fired south when we were up close to the DMZ. Many US Army artillery units fired at a range called "C" range where they fired out into the South China Sea (again with the shooting at a spot in the water). Now grant you the ROK units were on islands in the waters North Korea was claiming is theirs, thus the term disputed, just like were that island they blew up is. But that don't mean it is their sovereign land and even if you want to support NKs claim it still doesn't justify what they did if you ask me.  

The South Koreans were not threatening the North Koreans; they were just pissing them off by not caving into their demands. Now some of you here might say "well that's enough to blame SK" well you go run with that; it's your prerogative.

The ROK units were south of the line established by the UN and in their own sovereign territory. They always have be across that line when they did this drill. As I said above North Korea decided to make a big deal out of this known drill to use it as an excuse to start a fight with SK for whatever reason. They knew their "demand" to stop the drill would be ignored because, well, they always are ignored. South Korea isn't going to let North Korea bully it around (you can call home and ask my wife....LOL). I'm sure most here can understand that.   

Maysie Maysie's picture

Bec wrote:

I'm not as fiery or as theatrical in expressing myself as some of you are here; me saying "dropping bombs on that building in that situation was wrong" is equal to one of your two paragraph rants about cooperate stooges ass raping cows and killing babies in their cribs with flamethrowers and all that other stuff you like to throw in for extra effect.

...

Koreans are a proud and stubborn people, I should know, I'm married to one.  

Bec, you aren't allowed to say shit like the first section about another babbler. Violent sexual imagery as "metaphor" is not okay. This is a warning. If you talk shit like that again you will get a temporary or permanent vacation. 

As for the second line, that kind of racist crap is also not allowed on babble. Cut it out, and it doesn't matter who you're married to.

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:

I'm not as fiery or as theatrical in expressing myself as some of you are here; me saying "dropping bombs on that building in that situation was wrong" is equal to one of your two paragraph rants about cooperate stooges ass raping cows and killing babies in their cribs with flamethrowers and all that other stuff you like to throw in for extra effect. 

Post a quote or apologize for your unfounded nasty bitter personal attack.  I say a lot of things about the evil empire but I don't ever remember anything that includes rape analogies or killing babies in their cribs with flame throwers.  I think you are confusing me with the American spin media in the lead up o the first Iraqi war.  They claimed the false killing babies story to vilify the people the country they were about to invade. 

 

Oh, my apologies then. It was a some what over the top generalization of how some people's posting style seems to me (exaggerated for effect)... it was not aimed directly at you. However, with all things said to others; it's not what I think I said, it's what you think I said and I've obviously offended you. As such I offer my apology to you and anyone else offended by that part of my post.

I have to remember not everyone is an old thick skinned rhino hide like me...  

 

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