Need some supporting arguments to rebut attacks on Evo Morales' decision to run again.

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Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture
Need some supporting arguments to rebut attacks on Evo Morales' decision to run again.

I've been in a Facebook argument with someone who basically argues that Evo brought the coup on himself because he stood for another term after losing the referendum, that Evo should instead have had someone else from his party run and should have been cultivating successors.

Believe me, I KNOW that that's a bogus argument, but it would help me to refute it-this is also an argument with a family member who takes my disagreement with their view on this as a personal attack-if any of you would be willing or able to provide me with answers to the following questions:

1) Does anyone know why Evo chose to run for another term himself rather than having someone else from his party run?   Has he been cultivating any successors for the day when he inevitably would leave office?  T

2) Is it true that the judges who ruled in Evo's favor on his challenge to the referendum results were elected, and that therefore the claim that Evo "packed the court" is simply false?

3) Is there any actual evidence that Evo has been, in any sense at all, personally corrupt-that he, in any meaningful way, has profited financially from his office?  I assume that he hasn't in the slightest, but am looking for proof to show to the person who won't let this go with me.

4) In that first round of elections, minor party candidates took about 14% of the vote.  Does anybody know where most of those minor-pary candidates would be placed on a left-right spectrum?  

I have started threads like this in other situations in the past and some on this board have assumed I was acting from some sort of suspicious intent, but please know that the questions I'm asking here are about gathering information to make a more effective set of arguments against the coup.   I'm always against Latin American military coups.

 

 

 

 

 

 

NDPP

In Dec. 2017 Bolivia's high court the Supreme Tribunal of Justice found that Article 23 of the American Convention on Human Rights instructed that public offices would have no term limits, and therefore ruled that Morales could run again. As I understand it, this decision effectively superseded and voided the  earlier referendum results which Morales narrowly lost.  Wikipedia is probably the easiest source to verify this or search for the other information you require. 

Pondering

To me it comes down to one thing. Democracy. If the people choose him again their will should prevail. 

josh

He should have accepted it and not challenged it in court. But that in no way justifies the coup.

And the decision that term limits is a violation of human rights was ridiculous. 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

NDPP wrote:

In Dec. 2017 Bolivia's high court the Supreme Tribunal of Justice found that Article 23 of the American Convention on Human Rights instructed that public offices would have no term limits, and therefore ruled that Morales could run again. As I understand it, this decision effectively superseded and voided the  earlier referendum results which Morales narrowly lost.  Wikipedia is probably the easiest source to verify this or search for the other information you require. 

Thanks for that.  

JKR

Who chose Bolivia's high court, The Supreme Tribunal?

Are term limits still in the Bolivian constitution?

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

JKR wrote:

Who chose Bolivia's high court, The Supreme Tribunal?

Are term limits still in the Bolivian constitution?

Fucking imperialist apologists.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

JKR wrote:

Who chose Bolivia's high court, The Supreme Tribunal?

Are term limits still in the Bolivian constitution?

The voters choose the court.  Judges are elected-or at least they were before the Bolivian military forced the last democratically-elected president to resign at gunpoint last weekend.   The judges are the judges the people of Bolivia voted for.

And the term "Tribunal" is simply a South American term for a judicial body.  It's not a kangaroo court or a star chamber.

JKR

Are term limits in the current Bolivian constitution?

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

JKR wrote:

Are term limits in the current Bolivian constitution?

Has a Christian fascist coup occurred in Bolivia where the new government is murdering indigenous women in the streets?

JKR

kropotkin1951 wrote:

JKR wrote:

Who chose Bolivia's high court, The Supreme Tribunal?

Are term limits still in the Bolivian constitution?

Fucking imperialist apologists.

It seems to me that changing a constitution to allow a certain leader to stay in power looks very suspect and that kind of situation is associated with dictatorships. It's also been reported that the votes weren't counted fairly there. Is that true? Appearances matter in politics. Maybe the left should do a better job protecting itself from the right because they know very well how to take advantage of even the appearance of shadiness.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

JKR wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

JKR wrote:

Who chose Bolivia's high court, The Supreme Tribunal?

Are term limits still in the Bolivian constitution?

Fucking imperialist apologists.

It seems to me that changing a constitution to allow a certain leader to stay in power looks very suspect and that kind of situation is associated with dictatorships. It's also been reported that the votes weren't counted fairly there. Is that true? Appearances matter in politics. Maybe the left should do a better job protecting itself from the right because they know very well how to take advantage of even the appearance of shadiness.

It was "reported" by the North American, British and European corporate press.  Anything can be reported.

None of the points you've tried to make here mitigates a military coup.  And Evo had agreed to hold the second round of voting before the military forced him to resign at gunpoint, so there was no longer even any theoretical justification for demanding his ouster, or for anything the military has done since.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

JKR wrote:

Are term limits in the current Bolivian constitution?

The court ruling made by the freely-elected judges overturned the term limits.

It's not like Evo has turned into Indigenous Juan Peron or something.

JKR

kropotkin1951 wrote:

JKR wrote:

Are term limits in the current Bolivian constitution?

Has a Christian fascist coup occurred in Bolivia where the new government is murdering indigenous women in the streets?

I agree that the new governments' actions have been incredibly horrible. I'm not sure whether this horrible government was put in power in accordance with Bolivia's constitution. The problem with bending a constitution to suit your sides needs is that the other side can then much more easily bend the constitution again to suit their needs.

 

laine lowe laine lowe's picture

Seems like the "other side" had tons of encouragement from the Lima Group and OAS, similar to the heir apparent/leader in waiting in Venezuela. Canada is only stalling in declaring the racist, right wing usurper a legitimate president - waiting for some fig leaf of perceived legitimacy in doing so.

JKR

Ken Burch wrote:

JKR wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

JKR wrote:

Who chose Bolivia's high court, The Supreme Tribunal?

Are term limits still in the Bolivian constitution?

Fucking imperialist apologists.

It seems to me that changing a constitution to allow a certain leader to stay in power looks very suspect and that kind of situation is associated with dictatorships. It's also been reported that the votes weren't counted fairly there. Is that true? Appearances matter in politics. Maybe the left should do a better job protecting itself from the right because they know very well how to take advantage of even the appearance of shadiness.

It was "reported" by the North American, British and European corporate press.  Anything can be reported.

None of the points you've tried to make here mitigates a military coup.  And Evo had agreed to hold the second round of voting before the military forced him to resign at gunpoint, so there was no longer even any theoretical justification for demanding his ouster, or for anything the military has done since.

After being in power for so long how could the Bolivian military be so disloyal to Evo's government?

I think the situation in Bolivia is horrible and also very bad in places like Brazil. It's incredibly frustrating that when the left does take power and begins improving things for the masses, many countries still suddenly revert to being fascist again. I think the left has lessons to learn about institutionalizing change. 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

JKR wrote:

I think the situation in Bolivia is horrible and also very bad in places like Brazil. It's incredibly frustrating that when the left does take power and begins improving things for the masses, many countries still suddenly revert to being fascist again. I think the left has lessons to learn about institutionalizing change. 

The global fascists have most of the weapons and all of the financial tools to devastate any government that does not follow the dictates of the NATO oligarchies. Strange how all the horrible "dictators" that have to be removed just happen to have large amounts of resources that WE want.

The people in the streets of Bolivia are being murdered on behalf of your corporations and you come on this board and try to justify rape and murder. Go fuck  your self.

zazzo

Maybe the people asked Morales to run again.  Before our governance systems were broken down by the legislation in  the Indian Act, our leaders served until the people no longer wanted them to, or if the leader decided not to.  If a leader was good, kind, and sensible, and worked for the benefit of the people, then he could be leader for a long time.  My grandfather was one such leader.   The stance by so called democracies toward the situation re Bolivia would be laughable if the situation there on the ground wasn't so tragic for poor and indigenous people.  Canada and the US are democracies who are run by those who have not been elected by a majority. And the influence of corporate multi-nationals is a disgrace. 

zazzo

And another thing, Evo Morales had the experience of working with first world governments and multi-nationals.  He had the guts to tell the world what he thought of the ruthless plundering of the earth's resources and the damage that was done.  He understood the concept of protecting the Earth.  If I had a leader like that here in Canada, I would most certainly beg him or her to run again.  Unfortunately, I do not.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

I am not sure if this has been posted so I will post it. A very good article about the terrible plans that Morales had for the economy. If only his plans were centered on corporate needs not public good he would not have been overthrown.

Lithium is the key ingredient for the batteries fueling the world’s electric car and smartphone revolution. Market analysts speculate that by the mid-2020s, lithium supply will be straining to keep up with demand from auto and mobile device manufacturers. It’s being called the “gold of the 21st century.” Bolivia’s largely untapped Salar de Uyuni salt flats, located high in the Andes, are estimated to contain between 25 and 45% of the planet’s known reserves. The government of Evo Morales has been working to create a publicly-owned lithium industry to help diversify his country’s economy and raise more of its people out of poverty.

Efforts to get at the metal by multinational mining companies from the U.S., Canada, South Korea, and others have so far largely faltered. A joint venture with a German company was canceled by the Bolivian government last week over concerns that not enough benefit would go to the indigenous people who live near Uyuni. Chinese and Russian firms have been among the few that have inked deals.

Given the fate of too many progressive governments in this part of the world over the last century, the next part of the story was unfortunately totally predictable. This weekend, the government of Bolivian President Evo Morales was overthrown in a military coup.

...

At any rate, the coup has, for now, killed off hopes for that publicly-owned lithium industry that would have carried Bolivia into the 21st century and generated even more funds for creating jobs and alleviating poverty. If the Teslas and iPhones of the world are to be powered by Bolivian lithium, there likely won’t be much benefit for the people of that country. The mining companies must be rejoicing.

https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/bolivia-coup-against-morales-opens-...

zazzo

Oh my god, we are doomed....

JKR

kropotkin1951 wrote:

The people in the streets of Bolivia are being murdered on behalf of your corporations and you come on this board and try to justify rape and murder. Go fuck  your self.

Are corporations more my corporations than your corporations? I think rape and murder are unjustifiable.

zazzo

"We are suffering, we are being shot at. We want justice, we don't want a massacre."

https://twitter.com/telesurenglish

 

NDPP

kropotkin1951 wrote:

JKR wrote:

Who chose Bolivia's high court, The Supreme Tribunal?

Are term limits still in the Bolivian constitution?

Fucking imperialist apologists.

NDPP wrote:

Hardly uncommon on this 'progressive' Canadian website.

iyraste1313

Seems like the "other side" had tons of encouragement from the Lima Group and OAS, similar to the heir apparent/leader in waiting in Venezuela...

this of course is a rather crucial matter, given that Canada is leader of the Lima Group, along with its NGO Canadian International Council under President Ben Rosewell

zazzo

No one is saying much about the new 'President', Jeanine Añez, and whether or not she followed the provisions in the Constitution.  Or the laws and policies newly enacted under her government.  While governments and political parties dither or even worse, look the other way,  indigenous people are being shot in the streets for standing up for democracy and the right to elect their leadership.  All this Añez government has to do, is to pull the military and the police from the streets, let the people assemble peacefully.  Evo has said he will not run again, because he does not want to see his people being killed (massacred).  Call the elections, damn it!  They won't because they know what the results will be.  I haven't been this pissed off since the killer of Colten Bushie was acquitted.  

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

JKR wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

The people in the streets of Bolivia are being murdered on behalf of your corporations and you come on this board and try to justify rape and murder. Go fuck  your self.

Are corporations more my corporations than your corporations? I think rape and murder are unjustifiable.

I'll accept your good intent...but you'd be much more credible in saying that "rape and murder are unjustifiable" if you hadn't made so many posts implying that the coup, which is the cause of the large increase of such crimes currently being committed by the Bolivian military, was Evo Morales' fault- an assertion which is not far from arguing that the coup, and thus the rape and murder we're discussing here, were justifiable.

There was never any possibility that what the military did here was just going to lead to a "reset" and the resumption of normal nonviolent democracy as the country had before the coup.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

NDPP wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

JKR wrote:

Who chose Bolivia's high court, The Supreme Tribunal?

Are term limits still in the Bolivian constitution?

Fucking imperialist apologists.

NDPP wrote:

Hardly uncommon on this 'progressive' Canadian website.

It'e neither progressive nor "anti-imperialist" to support Putin's Russian Orthodox-authoritarian state or China's absurdly paranoid dictatorship.

josh

What are you talking about.  Russia is a progressive bastion.  And the problem with people like Corbyn is that he's not a model progressive like Putin.

laine lowe laine lowe's picture

zazzo wrote:

No one is saying much about the new 'President', Jeanine Añez, and whether or not she followed the provisions in the Constitution.  Or the laws and policies newly enacted under her government.  While governments and political parties dither or even worse, look the other way,  indigenous people are being shot in the streets for standing up for democracy and the right to elect their leadership.  All this Añez government has to do, is to pull the military and the police from the streets, let the people assemble peacefully.  Evo has said he will not run again, because he does not want to see his people being killed (massacred).  Call the elections, damn it!  They won't because they know what the results will be.  I haven't been this pissed off since the killer of Colten Bushie was acquitted.  

Worth repeating over and over again.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

I love this piece. It explains clearly why some protests are pro-democracy and others are violent mobs rioting. My apologies to those who don't do the evil FB.

https://www.facebook.com/SoapboxStand/videos/2536290969825276/

 

Unionist

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I love this piece. It explains clearly why some protests are pro-democracy and others are violent mobs rioting. My apologies to those who don't do the evil FB.

https://www.facebook.com/SoapboxStand/videos/2536290969825276/

Great find, krop!

I wonder if non-Facebookers can view it here? https://www.instagram.com/tv/B45eurpgjxJ/?igshid=saol9ev0u6fu

 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

laine lowe wrote:

zazzo wrote:

No one is saying much about the new 'President', Jeanine Añez, and whether or not she followed the provisions in the Constitution.  Or the laws and policies newly enacted under her government.  While governments and political parties dither or even worse, look the other way,  indigenous people are being shot in the streets for standing up for democracy and the right to elect their leadership.  All this Añez government has to do, is to pull the military and the police from the streets, let the people assemble peacefully.  Evo has said he will not run again, because he does not want to see his people being killed (massacred).  Call the elections, damn it!  They won't because they know what the results will be.  I haven't been this pissed off since the killer of Colten Bushie was acquitted.  

Worth repeating over and over again.

Indeed.  Thank you for writing that.