Obama: "I am a New Democrat"

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Lord Palmerston
Obama: "I am a New Democrat"

And that doesn't mean he has an ideological affinity with the NDP.

Quote:
President Barack Obama firmly resists ideological labels, but at the end of a private meeting with a group of moderate Democrats on Tuesday afternoon, he offered a statement of solidarity.

“I am a New Democrat,” he told the New Democrat Coalition, according to two sources at the White House session.

The group is comprised of centrist Democratic members of the House, who support free trade and a muscular foreign policy but are more moderate than the conservative Blue Dog Coalition.

Obama made his comment in discussing his budget priorities and broader goals, also calling himself a “pro-growth Democrat” during the course of conversation.

The self-descriptions are striking given Obama’s usual caution in being identified with any wing of his often-fractious party. He largely avoided the Democratic Leadership Council — the centrist group that Bill Clinton once led — and, with an eye on his national political standing, has always shied away from the liberal label, too.

As recently as last week, he steadfastly refused to define his governing philosophy.

Asked in an interview with The New York Times to describe if he was a liberal, socialist or progressive, Obama demurred.

“No, I’m not going to engage in that,” he said, before calling back the reporters later in the day to question why they would even ask if he is a socialist.

Surrounded by 65 moderate Democrats on Tuesday in the State Dining Room, Obama was happy to portray himself as simpatico with a group of members who are largely socially liberal but fiscally more moderate to conservative.

He said he “supports free and fair trade,” according to one attendee, and noted that he was “very concerned about a return to protectionism."

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0309/19862.html

 

Stargazer

Well he is certainly no socialist:

 

Quote:
During his campaign, the ever-desperate McCain, his hard-charging running mate Sarah Palin and even a plumber named Joe lined up to call Barack Obama a "socialist." Last month, Huckabee even exclaimed that, "The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics may be dead, but the Union of American Socialist Republics is being born."
Quote:
A national health insurance system as embodied in the single-payer health plan reintroduced in legislation this year by Rep. John Conyers Jr. (D-Mich.), makes perfect sense to us. That bill would provide comprehensive coverage, offer a full range of choice of doctors and services and eliminate the primary cause of personal bankruptcy -- health-care bills. Obama's plan would do the opposite. By mandating that every person be insured, ObamaCare would give private health insurance companies license to systematically underinsure policyholders while cashing in on the moral currency of universal coverage. If Obama is a socialist, then on health care, he's doing a fairly good job of concealing it.
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/03/14-4

Stockholm

If being a "new Democrat" means being "pro-growth", does that mean that being a "non-new Democrat" means favouring economic shrinkage?

Unionist

Absolutely. Many tumours have benefited from it.

 

Doug

He's generating economic growth on the Danforth in Toronto. 

http://torontoist.com/2009/03/an_obamanation_on_the_danforth.php

 

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Quote:

The so-called New Democrats with whom Barack Obama identifies are, next to the House Blue Dogs, the most rightwing of Democratic reps in Congress, with considerable overlap between the two groups. In fact, several House New Democrats are also Blue Dogs. New Democrats supported the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, and continual increases in the military budget. They all supported the bailout, and uphold No Child Left Behind and favor the gradual dismantling and privatization of public education in the US which NCLB set in motion. New Democrats are tepid at best on the Employee Free Choice Act, which would give workers across the country the legal standing workers have in many other advanced industrial countries to fight for wage and benefit increases and respect and dignity on the job.

And despite the fact that single payer health care would create 2.6 million new jobs and cover all the uninsured while costing no more than the present and profoundly broken health care system, New Democrats prefer a healthy private insurance sector to a healthy population. They know that families who do not fear losing their precious medical benefits will be less afraid to organize and strike and fight for better wages and conditions. New Democrats favor throwing trillions at banks to "revive" the economy, but are willing to cut or gut Social Security. All these policy positions, and the New Democrat label itself are the heritage of the Democratic Leadership Council, with which Obama was briefly affiliated early in his career, but forced to disavow. Obama's chief of staff, Rahm Emanuel, a leading New Democrat in the Congress, has always been a stalwart of the Democratic Leadership Council. Emmanuel used corporate campaign cash to run pro-war Democrats against antiwar Democrats in 2006 and 2008.

As potent as the DLC-New Democrat brand is, it is also poisonous. As a candidate for the Democratic nomination to the US Senate in 2003, Obama urgently needed to lock down the progressive, black and antiwar vote in his home state of Illinois, and was compelled to renounce the Democratic Leadership Council. That was then. This is now. Perhaps the president feels himself untouchable and unaccountable now that he is safely in the White House. Maybe he was just relaxed. Whatever the case, the truth of where his political allegiance lies is no longer a matter of conjecture.

The Democratic Leadership Council has always been "Republicans-lite," a pack of corporate funded Trojan Horses inside the Democratic Party responsible to their funders, and not to the Democratic Party's base. Now President Obama has assumed his place, as the leader of that pack.

[url=Bruce">http://www.blackagendareport.com/?q=content/president-obama-declares-his... Dixon[/url]

NDPP

Obamacare: A Health Care Rationing Scheme to Enrich Insurers, Drug Companies and Large Hospital Chains

http://www.buzzflash.net/story.php?id=1025463

"Behind the facade of reform, Obama and leading Dems ruled universal, single-payer coverage off the table before debate even began.."

Fidel

Just so long as he doesnt start calling himself a social democrat.

People have referred to everyone from Marx to Stalin as communists. And it's about as accurate as saying that both Martin Luther King Jr. and Governor George Wallace were Christians.

NDPP

Not What Obama Promised

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/44605

"The key lesson should be that change does not come from electing someone."

Fidel

NoDifferencePartyPooper wrote:

Not What Obama Promised

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/44605

"The key lesson should be that change does not come from electing someone."

Oh Americans know they were being lied to. Like Canadians have become used to it with Liberals and Tories in federal power since 1867, Americans, too, have bcome conditioned to expect no significant changes whichever the two old line parties win power. It's really a one party dictatorship in the US as it is here with the two wings of the same big business and banking party swapping power back and forth and sharing it decade after decade, century to century. Obama's presidential campaign donors on Wall Street to Silicon Valley filled his war chest to overflowing with money. And they expect political favours now that he's president. Too, even wealthy people in the States stopped trusting crazy George's Republicans with the economy. Obama was pre-selected by the superrich in America and shoved into the presidency. They needed a human face to carry through with the taxpayer-shouldered bailouts for Wall Street and friends and the warfiteering agenda. 

But that's not going to happen in Canada for the NDP. Liberals or Tories (and now both) always form the pre-selected federal government here. We dont have presidential elections for one thing. And the NDP still has to do the small time fundraising, like raffling off pies and pastries, auctions, bake sales etc. A Canadian equivalent of Warren Buffet or Goldman Sachs will not be shovelling money the NDP's way anytime soon. And Jack wouldnt owe any favours to the big banks, big pharma, or military-industrial complex either. With Jack and the NDP, what you see is what you get.

NDPP

Obama Lies on Two Continents, is Denounced in New York:

http://www.blackagendareport.com/?q=content/obama-lies-two-continents-de...

"Barack Obama may be the most effective prpagandist for US imperialism in a very long time. But his narrative to AFricans is built on blatant falsehoods, and his spiel to Black America is fundamentally dishonest and evasive. Demonstrators in Manhatten declared: "We will no longer tolerate a message from within our community, that the policies of Barack Obama cannot be criticized.."

NDPP

Obama Escalates Assault on Public Education

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/jul2009/educ-j25.shtml

"Now the Obama administration is promoting education 'reform' that will deepen a new system of segregation in education - along class rather than racial lines.."

NDPP

The Biden and Clinton Mutinies

http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn07312009.html

"Time bombs tossed seemingly casually in the past month by his vice president and his secretary of state, disclose president Obama, in the dawn of his first term, already the target of carefully mediated onslaughts by senior members of his own cabinet.."

NDPP

Obama Sends A Signal to the Few Remaining Suckers Who Believe in the Rule of Law:

http://www.chris-floyd.com/component/content/article/3-articles/1809-oba...

"For anyone still harboring a few scraps of vestigal hope that a change of administration effected by the 2008 election would restore even a thin, weak, straggly, lineament thin of the rule of law in the United States, the recent opinion piece by Barack Obama's hand-picked CIA chief, the doleful Establishment water-toter Leon Panetta will tell you all you need to know..."

NDPP

Obama Seeks to Institutionalize Indefinite Detention

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/aug2009/pers-a05.shtml

"Press reports have revealed that the Obama administration is considering the creation of a prison and court administration on US soil to process and hold current and future terrorist suspects.."

US Military Base plan Fuels Latin American Tensions:

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/aug2009/laam-a05.shtml

"US Army, Airforce and Navy would be granted access to total of 7 installations scattered across Columbia for a period of at least 10 years.."

US Healthcare Lobby Pumps Millions into Obama's 'Reform' Effort

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/aug2009/lobs-a05.shtml

"the health care industry is pumping in record amounts of cash to the politicians involved.."

White House Affirms Deal with Big Pharma

http://www.opednews.com/populum/link.php?id=95010

NDPP

Video - John Pilger: Obama is a Corporate Marketing Creation

http://www.gawkk.com/john-pilger-obama-is-a-corporate-marketing-creation...

wage zombie

i heard he's a vampire too.

NorthReport

I think the USA is at much more of a threat from within, rather than from wiithout. A Secret Service  job for this President must be a nitemare. Do these gun-toting folks realize what will happen to the USA if the President gets attacked. And don't think that Canada would necessarily escape the violence.

 

Man carrying assault weapon attends Obama protest

PHOENIX - About a dozen people carrying guns, including one with a military-style rifle, milled among protesters outside the convention center where President Barack Obama was giving a speech Monday - the latest incident in which protesters have openly displayed firearms near the president.

Gun-rights advocates say they're exercising their constitutional right to bear arms and protest, while those who argue for more gun control say it could be a disaster waiting to happen.

Phoenix police said the gun-toters at Monday's event, including the man carrying an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle slung over his shoulder, didn't need permits. No crimes were committed, and no one was arrested.

The man with the rifle declined to be identified but told The Arizona Republic that he was carrying the assault weapon because he could. "In Arizona, I still have some freedoms," he said.

Phoenix police Detective J. Oliver, who monitored the man at the downtown protest, said police also wanted to make sure no one decided to harm him.

"Just by his presence and people seeing the rifle and people knowing the president was in town, it sparked a lot of emotions," Oliver said. "We were keeping peace on both ends."

Last week, during Obama's health care town hall in Portsmouth, N.H., a man carrying a sign reading "It is time to water the tree of liberty" stood outside with a pistol strapped to his leg.

"It's a political statement," he told The Boston Globe. "If you don't use your rights, then you lose your rights."

Police asked the man to move away from school property, but he was not arrested.

Fred Solop, a Northern Arizona University political scientist, said the incidents in New Hampshire and Arizona could signal the beginning of a disturbing trend.

"When you start to bring guns to political rallies, it does layer on another level of concern and significance," Solop said. "It actually becomes quite scary for many people. It creates a chilling effect in the ability of our society to carry on honest communication."

He said he's never heard of someone bringing an assault weapon near a presidential event. "The larger the gun, the more menacing the situation," he said.

 

 

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hctDBUKMR4V-lGBrEQcYNO...

genstrike

Well, this ought to help the NDP brain trust in their attempt to borrow some of the shine off of Obama Wink

NorthReport

If what the CBC news reported tonite is accurate, and Obama does drop the public aspect to his health care plan, our public Canadian health care willl be under additional pressure and we will feel the heat.  

Doug

Perhaps - but chances are that a public-optionless health insurance reform will turn out to be a chronic pain for American politicians and not something that invites emulation. Coverage will be expanded but at a great and uncontrolled cost. Subsidizing private insurance for the uncovered won't be cheap. The insurers will have seen to that if there's no public competition to them and no public power to negotiate pricing. The angle our privatizers will work on is the question of whether the Canadian health care system should look more like the one in France but with their own special emphasis on contracting health care work now done in the public sector to the private sector. These are more complex and difficult arguments to counter.

josh

There is no margin in failure for any Democratic politician in this country, including Blue Dogs. And that is why the progressives, the safest Democrats in Washington, should stand firm and say they will not vote for a plan without a public option. If the administration understands that they will have no plan otherwise, they will have to accommodate their base and twist the arms of enough Blue Dogs and Senate Corporate lackeys to pass it.

The "lesson" of doing otherwise is that all the right has to do is unleash the teabaggers with a pile of unadulterated bullshit and the administration will cave.

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2009/08/lesson-by-digby-following-post-be...

josh

Insurance companies are delighted with the way "reform" is unfolding. Think of it: The government is planning to require most uninsured Americans to buy health coverage. Millions of young and healthy individuals will be herded into the industry's welcoming arms. This is the population the insurers drool over.

This additional business - a gold mine - will more than offset the cost of important new regulations that, among other things, will prevent insurers from denying coverage to applicants with pre-existing conditions or imposing lifetime limits on benefits.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/18/opinion/18herbert.html?_r=1&ref=opinion

johnpauljones

Americans are waking up to the reality of buyers remourse. they did not get what they paid for. the great hope has become the great big bust.

Obama whose party is in power in teh house, senate and wh lost the media battle the moment they announced their health care policy. americans already have socialized medicine for vetrans yet no one would dare call it socialized medicine.

They target Canadian health care system which is far from perfect but still better than many americans will ever have.

 

josh

Not just for veterans.  For seniors and the poor as well.

Instead of playing it coy, Obama should have drawn lines from the beginning.  Despite what the opposition says, there is no real Obama health care plan.  He set goals, but introduced no formal plan.  Leaving it to congress to come up with a specific one.  He was trying to avoid what about to Clinton in 93-94.  But, obviously not understanding the nature of his opposition, and refusing to call them out, he may end up with the same result.

NDPP

Barack Obama: Front Man for 'The Man'

http://www.creative-i.info/?p=9944

"Surely it's obvious that Obama is a puppet on a string..?"

NDPP

Obama's CIA past?

http://cannonfire.blogspot.com/2009/08/names-obama-barack-obama.html

"the eye-opener here concerns Obama's first job out of college. He was recruited by Business International Corporation, accused of functioning as a CIA front-company.."

Doug

NoDifferencePartyPooper wrote:

Barack Obama: Front Man for 'The Man'

http://www.creative-i.info/?p=9944

"Surely it's obvious that Obama is a puppet on a string..?"

Not really. He seems less puppet-ish than George W. Bush was, in that he's more than just a smiling face in front of other people providing the agenda. But he is honestly and truly a centrist and that causes a problem because he seems to feel that if he's not getting at least partial buy-in on policy from Republicans and right-leaning Democrats, he's not doing his job properly.

NDPP

Obama Administration Seeks "Emergency Control" of the Internet

http://antifascist-calling.blogspot.com/2009/08/obama-administration-see...

"You have to hand it to congressional Democrats. Mendacious grifters whose national security agenda is virtually indistinguishable from Bushist Republicans, when it comes to rearranging proverbial deck chairs on the Titanic, the party of "change" is second to none in the "all terrorism all the time" department.."

B9sus4 B9sus4's picture

Every president since Jack Kennedy was murdered has been a handpicked stooge of the bankers and the secret police. How could it be otherwise? The lesson of Kennedy's murder is plain on the page: "fuck with us and you pay." Young John threated to run for president and reopen the investigation. Had a plane crash. They murdered his whole family so as not to make the same mistake again of having a young Kennedy grow up and oppose them. No one will ever be subjected to any justice because of those murders. 

Bam seems like a smart kid. Why, why I ask you, would a smart fellow martyr himself for posterity? The Kennedy lesson is plain on the page: no one will ever pay for that crime (except for that CIA/FBI patsy that took the bullet in the Dallas copshop.) Therefore, in realpolitik terms, it's irrelevant. The Big Dog (Clinton) is rich. All he had to do is stay alive for two terms without pissing off the bankers, then retire and reap the benefits. A good servant of the Round Table-ists (the "Chatham House Mob"?)

The US is a crime family, like the Mafia but it is now an Uebermob. Who in that context would dare to stick his neck out? For what? For the penurious gratitude of a lot of little "nobodies" (ie., like us workers in the mass)? Jean Chretien told 'em we ain't sending troops to Iraq. What happened immediately afterward? SARS in Ontario.. mad cow in Alberta.. massive forest fires in BC.. all of which cost this country billions. Lesson learned. Gangster logic: "fuck with us and you pay."

Just my opinion though. Crazy old tin foil hat musician guy.

NDPP

The 16th Term: Obama's New Betrayals are Old

http://www.chris-floyd.com/component/content/article/1-latest-news/1831-...

"Bush's third term? You're living it.."

ps: which is why NDP missives by Brad Lavigne re "Change You Can Believe in" grow exceedingly tiresome. Would you really vote for a party that still doesn't get it with Obama or that offers deals to the Tories? Not I.

NDPP

Insurance Stocks Rise After Obama Speech

http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/20090910_insurance_stocks_ri...

"Remember President Obama's reference during his health care address to "Wall St's relentless profit expectations"? Well those expectations were apparently met by that same address.."

agnostic

Obama cant be expected to change the world...

 

but as a person, if you read all his bios/ and speeches and past lifestyle

he is the typical guy that isnt a religious extremist or left wing extremist and cares for everyone and although he cant change the world, all that matters firstly is a good soul , great respectful person is a leader...

marzo

Obama has to contend with all those raving kooks who label him as a "socialist" (like it's a terrible thing), marxist, the same as hitler, 'house servant to the antichrist, he's bad because he's from Chicago,  blablablablabla.....

For reasonable people this kind of talk is obviously ridiculous but the trouble is that it has legs in USA society. It seems that some people in the Republican party and other toxic ideologues get ahold of this and proclaim it like gospel truth. There are legions of really dumb people who eat this up.  I suspect that Obama is being cautious not to give these people any ammunition to use against him. The gun-nut crowd doesn't like him either. 

NDPP

Cud and Complicity: Burying the Alternatives to Empire's Dominion

http://www.chris-floyd.com/component/content/article/1-latest-news/1943-...

"Oh come on, Ralph! Democracy and the rule of law? Don't be so unserious? Don't be so unrealistic? Don't you like the taste of cud? Here try a little spoonful, just a taste..You'll soon get used to it..just like the rest of us.."

George Victor

A friend by the name of Peter, retired advertising ideas guy, has this take on what the neo-con/southerner/teabagger element have done to Obama:  "The Right is so relentless.  They've effectively put GObama back on the plantation. "You lie. boy" during his first State of the Nation  address.  The "boy" part was my edit, but was so unstatedly subtextual."

 

 

George Victor

The health bill vote takes place in the U.S.Congress today. Just in case it fails, and the cry goes up that Pres. Obama has failed again, it would seem that his colour is central to the outcome. As Joan Walsh describes the emerging scene, in Salon today:

"So I'm having a hard time tonight trying to believe almost uniformly white tea partiers are anything other than a racist, right-wing reaction to the election of an African American president who brings with him feminists and gays (even if he doesn't do as much for them as they would ideally like). I'm having a hard time seeing the tea partiers as anything other than the spawn of George Wallace racism - the movement Pat Buchanan bragged to me that Richard Nixon made his own. Of course, in that same "Hardball" segment, Buchanan denounced me for condescending to and "demonizing" the tea partiers. I still find that rich: I grew up in lower middle class Long Island, with a first-generation Irish father, going to public schools and universities, while the wealthy Buchanan grew up in Washington D.C. with professionals as parents and attended Georgetown University. How is he the supposed working class troubadour while I'm somehow emblematic of the pointy-headed liberal elite?

 

"Democrats are lame about fighting stupid class-based slurs like that, which is part of why this health care fight has dragged on and become so bitter. But I think a lot of Democrats were horrified by the ugliness they saw today, and I'm hoping that helps pass health care reform on Sunday."

DaveW

 

may be very tight, but key Democrats think votes are there now,

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100321/ap_on_bi_ge/us_health_care_overhaul

 

including Babble favourites Dennis Kucinich and Socialist Bernie Sanders:

 www.realclearpolitics.com/2010/03/20/fight_republicans039_hypocrisy_231233.html

 

the "closing arguments" for the Obama plan:

 http://www.tnr.com/blog/the-treatment/closing-arguments

 

I have the bubbly ready, go team! Wink

NDPP

Memo to liberals: On the White House Death Warrants:

http://www.chris-floyd.com/component/content/article/1-latest-news/1953-...

"Let us hear no more excuses for Barack Obama...let us be done at last with all these wretched lies, these complicitous self-deceptions that are facilitating atrocity and tyranny on a monstrous scale..."

'learning from the best' - Brad Lavigne

Fidel

Yep, NDP = dixiecrats

therefore: NDP = warmongering plutocrats

logicians take note

George Victor

Let the silly ass carry on with development of his propaganda skills, Fidel.  He might not have appreciated Obama's work in south Chicage, either, even if he knew anything about it.

al-Qa'bong

Fidel wrote:

Yep, NDP = dixiecrats

therefore: NDP = warmongering plutocrats

logicians take note

 

This, from the logician who equates believing that crashing aircraft were instrumental in the destruction of the World Trade Center with supporting George Bush.

OK, I get it.  You've been joking all along.  Ha ha, you're a funny guy.

Jingles

I don't know if you saw this, George, so I'll bump it for NoDiff:

Quote:
Memo to liberals: On the White House Death Warrants:

http://www.chris-floyd.com/component/content/article/1-latest-news/1953-...

"Let us hear no more excuses for Barack Obama...let us be done at last with all these wretched lies, these complicitous self-deceptions that are facilitating atrocity and tyranny on a monstrous scale..."

How does a Good Democrat loyalist square such horrific abuses with the "progressive" President? 

Fidel

al-Qa'bong wrote:

Fidel wrote:

Yep, NDP = dixiecrats

therefore: NDP = warmongering plutocrats

logicians take note

 

This, from the logician who equates believing that crashing aircraft were instrumental in the destruction of the World Trade Center with supporting George Bush.

OK, I get it.  You've been joking all along.  Ha ha, you're a funny guy.

So was the official 9/11 conspiracy theory the one time when crazy George and his criminal regime told you the truth? In one sentence or less, what makes you think thousands of independent professionals doubting the war criminals could be wrong? The various truther civil society groups are not hippies protesting a phony war in VietNam. Very many are serious people with serious credentials. And I'm sorry you have such a low opinion of people in general. I can only hope that your Let's accept what crazy George and his people had to say and ignore everyone else style of reasoning doesnt rub off on too many people around you.

[url=http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18344.htm]Science in the Bush: When Politics Displaces Physics[/url]

NDPP

Home Free: No Worries for Dr K as Complicity is Revealed

http://www.chris-floyd.com/component/content/article/1-latest-news/1954-...

"Just think, it was once a 'scandal' that an American secretary of state gave the green light to a program of 'targeted killings'--assassinations--murders--that he knew as about to take place. Poor old Henry Kissinger...Why nowadays, we have US Presidents openly ordering the murder of American citizens and nobody bats an eye...American presidents murder people. What's the big deal?"

al-Qa'bong

Fidel wrote:

....whatever...

The point, once more, is that you're accusing people of being pro-Bush on the basis of their not going along with your particular theory.

You're either not paying any attention to what's being said to you or you're deliberately putting everyone on. 

Fidel

al-Qa'bong wrote:

Fidel wrote:

....whatever...

The point, once more, is that you're accusing people of being pro-Bush on the basis of their not going along with your particular theory.

You're either not paying any attention to what's being said to you or you're deliberately putting everyone on.

Well youre wrong again. None of these are my theories - they are points of view with which I tend to agree until more information is made available. And that's all. The truth movement is comprised of thousands of people who have come to a general consensus that there is an ongoing conspiracy to avoid a legitimate investigation into the events of 9/11. Your attempt to single me out or anyone else as the lone author of these slanderous claims made against the crazy George Bush era war criminals is invalid.  And I think truther arguments are far more substantial and worthy of support than those of the Bush government whackos and those currently in the White House and covering up Bush era crimes ranging from false flag terrorism to mass murder of people in foreign countries they bombed and invaded illegally.

What I think could be true is that some conservatives in North America - but not all -  grew weary of the Bush era lies and crimes. In some respects, some conservatives feel they must make a united stand with the former Bush government for the sake of pulling out at least one victory from an era that was wrought with lies and deception and crimes against humanity. No, I doubt very much we will convince them otherwise that those years were all bad. In their minds Bush and his Republican conservatives in government then must have had at least some redeeming qualities. The truth is that they are crooks and liars and war criminals who should be in prison right now.

al-Qa'bong

Quote:

Well youre wrong again. None of these are my theories - they are points of view with which I tend to agree until more information is made available.

 

Prevaricate all you want, but none of what you said justifies your accusing those who don't agree with the opinion you espouse as supporters of George Bush.

Fidel

al-Qa'bong wrote:

Quote:

Well youre wrong again. None of these are my theories - they are points of view with which I tend to agree until more information is made available.

 

Prevaricate all you want, but none of what you said justifies your accusing those who don't agree with the opinion you espouse as supporters of George Bush.

Well I can say without a doubt that I DO NOT now support crazy George or his former government of war criminals and climate science denialists nor have I ever and neither do I plan to in future.

And I've never once said that babblers can not express favour for any of that recent US government of war criminals or any of their falsified reports on 9/11 full of lies and deception. Not once.

 

Doug

Obama's opponents have long described him as a socialist. But what do actual socialists think about Obama? Not much, says Wharton.

 

Now, now...he can pronounce "nuclear" properly and that has to be worth something. Laughing

NDPP

Good one.  "Learning from the best"

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