The process to impeach President Trump begins 2

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josh

NDPP wrote:

Remember When it was Fashionable to Bash Tulsi as a Secret Trump Supporter?

https://twitter.com/aaronjmate/status/1217599546911612929

"Tulsi says the outcome of the Senate impeachment trial has already been 'predetermined' and the articles of impeachment ignored Trump's most egregious wrongdoings..."

She'd probably abstain on those as well.

Aristotleded24

NDPP wrote:
Remember When it was Fashionable to Bash Tulsi as a Secret Trump Supporter?

https://twitter.com/aaronjmate/status/1217599546911612929

"Tulsi says the outcome of the Senate impeachment trial has already been 'predetermined' and the articles of impeachment ignored Trump's most egregious wrongdoings..."

This was never about removing Trump from office. Anybody who knows how impeachment works and who can count the number of members of each party in the Senate understand that Trump is not going to be removed. The reason this is happening now is that the Democratic Establishment is deliberately trying to kneecap the Sanders and Warren candidicies at the most important time of the Primaries, because they are seen as the most progressive candidates. They will be tied up in Washington when they need to be on the campaign trail. This is just another silly attempt by the DNC to make it look like they oppose Trump to their base when they don't actually oppose Trump on matters of importance.

This cannot be said enough: the Democratic Establishment would rather lose to Trump than win with Sanders, because they are taking money from the same corporate lobbyists that support the Republicans.

You know what's going to happen? Trump will be acquitted, and he will brag about how everyone is trying to take him down but they failed. Also, Biden's name is going to be dragged through the mud. It's true that Trump should not have done that phone call (as if anyone's going to care who said what), but there are enough serious ethical questions around the behaviour of the Bidens that can distract from Trump's conduct. I disagreed with Tulsi's vote in the House, but her analysis of the situation is absolutely correct. What's going on with Iran is a good reason to impeach Trump over. You still have the same outcome in the Senate, but not only would that damage Trump on the issue of military intervention and remind people why they're scared of him pushing the nuclear button, but that would also put the entire Republican Party on record as being the party of war during an election year, and they would suffer for it.

josh

The reason this is happening now is that the Democratic Establishment is deliberately trying to kneecap the Sanders and Warren candidicies at the most important time of the Primaries, because they are seen as the most progressive candidates. They will be tied up in Washington when they need to be on the campaign trail. This is just another silly attempt by the DNC to make it look like they oppose Trump to their base when they don't actually oppose Trump on matters of importance.

Even the Republicans don't make such a ridiculous charge.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

josh wrote:

The reason this is happening now is that the Democratic Establishment is deliberately trying to kneecap the Sanders and Warren candidicies at the most important time of the Primaries, because they are seen as the most progressive candidates. They will be tied up in Washington when they need to be on the campaign trail. This is just another silly attempt by the DNC to make it look like they oppose Trump to their base when they don't actually oppose Trump on matters of importance.

Even the Republicans don't make such a ridiculous charge.

I'm inclined to give it some credibility. It is certainly true that the Democratic establishment would rather have another term of Trump than a Sanders presidency. They could probably accept Warren, but not Sanders, because he would end the gravy train they have all been riding for decades.

Aristotleded24

josh wrote:

The reason this is happening now is that the Democratic Establishment is deliberately trying to kneecap the Sanders and Warren candidicies at the most important time of the Primaries, because they are seen as the most progressive candidates. They will be tied up in Washington when they need to be on the campaign trail. This is just another silly attempt by the DNC to make it look like they oppose Trump to their base when they don't actually oppose Trump on matters of importance.

Even the Republicans don't make such a ridiculous charge.

Why would the Republicans weigh in on this? From their perspective, the best thing would be to stand back and let the Democrats shoot themselves in the foot.

At the very least, the timing stinks.

NDPP

Kunstler: Grave Tendings

https://kunstler.com/clusterfuck-nation/grave-tendings/

"...In a sane world of rational adults, these charges would be cooly dismissed out-of-hand as lacking any discernible malfeasant substance. As we live in a time of hysteria, the normal rules don't apply. That being the case, the defense should spare no mercy in unmasking the bad faith and fraud on offer by doing what the House Democrats have asked for, calling witnesses, so as to walk the Democrats into the fiery furnace of humiliation and infamy they so richly deserve.

What would soon be obvious is that the precipitating 'whistleblower' caper was an effort to divert attention from a network of Americans that used a politically captive Ukraine - following the Maidan Revolution of 2014 - to protect an enormous racketeering operation threatened by the candidacy, and then the election of Mr Trump. Naturally they are desperate to get him out of the way. So many of the facts are already publicly known and documented about these matters that the legal machinery has yet to catch up with it all. And when it does, the Democratic Party will have driven a wooden stake through its own depraved heart."

josh

LOL

NDPP

"Our impeachment contains in its underlying facts that Biden's son made $600k/yr at a no-show Ukrainian gas company board job, so everyone needs to keep the lips zipped on Biden corruption for the moment' --> This is the amusing corner the Dems have walked themselves into."

https://twitter.com/MattBruenig/status/1219463238980710400

Sean in Ottawa

NDPP wrote:

Kunstler: Grave Tendings

https://kunstler.com/clusterfuck-nation/grave-tendings/

"...In a sane world of rational adults, these charges would be cooly dismissed out-of-hand as lacking any discernible malfeasant substance. As we live in a time of hysteria, the normal rules don't apply. That being the case, the defense should spare no mercy in unmasking the bad faith and fraud on offer by doing what the House Democrats have asked for, calling witnesses, so as to walk the Democrats into the fiery furnace of humiliation and infamy they so richly deserve.

What would soon be obvious is that the precipitating 'whistleblower' caper was an effort to divert attention from a network of Americans that used a politically captive Ukraine - following the Maidan Revolution of 2014 - to protect an enormous racketeering operation threatened by the candidacy, and then the election of Mr Trump. Naturally they are desperate to get him out of the way. So many of the facts are already publicly known and documented about these matters that the legal machinery has yet to catch up with it all. And when it does, the Democratic Party will have driven a wooden stake through its own depraved heart."

Are you quoting this shit becuase you support and agree with it or because you are laughing at it or do you not want to take some responsibility for what you post and take a position at all?

Too much of this here. This is not a news feed it is a discussion place. Give at least some opinion on what you post -- Everyone! Please!

JKR

Hard as it is to believe, I think NDPP agrees with the loony quotes that he posts. 

Sean in Ottawa

JKR wrote:

Hard as it is to believe, I think NDPP agrees with the loony quotes that he posts. 

Well I object to everyone who quotes stuff without bringing their own position to the table. People do not need to see endless repeats of quotes form others they cannot engage here. I can say I rarely post links as a way of making a point -- I only post proof of a point I make and take responsibility for. Too many people here have said "oh I just posted it for infomration" when the link gets criticized. Sometimes a position can be that a person does not know what to make of something and asks poepl for an opinion -- but that is an opinion and context. This is everyone who posts large volumes of stuff without commenting on it. Why should we want to read and comment on something someone posts here who does not want to bother themselves? I agree that sometimes the answer in a conversation could be a link or quote. But this is overused as we get whole threads of quotes that are in no post annotated with an opinion.

NDPP

The Jimmy Dore Show

https://youtu.be/l6QZeKb7l3Q

"Shahid Buttar and Jimmy Dore debate impeachment."

Like Russiagate before, Ukrainegate/impeachment is another tawdry botched Dem clown show not a serious impeachment proceeding - meant only to distract chumps and gullibles from the real truth that "the Democratic Party won't pursue corruption charges because corruption in Washington is sadly, entirely bipartisan."

 

Answer of President Donald J Trump in Proceedings Before the US Senate

https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Answer-of-Presiden...

"...The Articles of Impeachment are constitutionally invalid on their face. They fail to allege any crime or violation of law whatsoever, let alone 'high crimes and misdemeanors' as required by the Constitution. Nothing in the Articles could permit even beginning to consider removing a duly elected President or warrant nullifying an election."

Another big nothingburger coming right up...

NDPP

Senate Adopts Rules For Quick Impeachment Trial of President Trump

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/01/22/impe-j22.html

"...The statements on the Senate floor by both the lawyers for Trump, led by White House counsel Pat Cipollone and Trump's personal lawyer Jay Sekulow, and the House impeachment managers, led by Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff, make clear the right-wing, antidemocratic politics of both warring factions. Schiff, speaking in opposition to the procedural resolution submitted by McConnell, emphasized the anti-Russian axis of the articles of impeachment - one  for abuse of power and the other for contempt of Congress.

Accusing Trump of 'threatening our national security', he declared: 'The evidence is already overwhelming and the evidence is that the president abused the power of his office, witheld hundreds of millions of dollars of military aid to an ally at war in order to coerce that ally into interfering in our election. And when he was caught, he obstructed Congress to cover it up.' The charge that Trump witheld aid to Ukraine because he is an agent of Russian President Vladimir Putin - the absurd, McCarthyite-style claim that runs throughout the Democrats' criticisms of Trump ever since the 2016 election - is spelled out in greater detail in the 111-page brief released by the House manager on Saturday.

It asserts that Trump sought to use the withheld military aid and a delay of a White House meeting for Ukrainian President Volodymr Zelensky to pressure Ukraine to intervene in the 2020 election in his favor, just as he had supposedly solicited the intervention of Putin in 2016 against his opponent Hillary Clinton. The White House lawyers responded by declaring any attempt to impeach Trump as an unconstitutional violation of presidential powers and an illegal move to overturn the results of the 2016 election.

The Democrats are not opposing Trump for his many real attacks on Democratic rights, including the assassination of a high Iranian government official, the destruction of the right to asylum and the incarceration of immigrants in concentration camps, the illegal diversion of Pentagon funds to build his border wall with Mexico, and his incitement of right-wing violence. Nor are they opposing his brutal cuts in food stamps, Medicaid, housing and other social benefits, or his massive tax-cuts for the rich. They are instead seeking to remove him from office or rein him in because he is seen by those sectors of the military, intelligence and foreign party establishment, as well as Wall Street for whom the Democratic Party speaks, as a threat to critical foreign policy interests of American imperialism..."

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

wsws wrote:

The Democrats are not opposing Trump for his many real attacks on Democratic rights, including the assassination of a high Iranian government official, the destruction of the right to asylum and the incarceration of immigrants in concentration camps, the illegal diversion of Pentagon funds to build his border wall with Mexico, and his incitement of right-wing violence. Nor are they opposing his brutal cuts in food stamps, Medicaid, housing and other social benefits, or his massive tax-cuts for the rich. They are instead seeking to remove him from office or rein him in because he is seen by those sectors of the military, intelligence and foreign party establishment, as well as Wall Street for whom the Democratic Party speaks, as a threat to critical foreign policy interests of American imperialism..."

Does this mean that the Republicans in congress are not controlled by the same "sectors of the military, intelligence and foreign party establishment, as well as Wall Street"? That they are free spirits who follow the dictates of their consciences, rather than those of the oligarchs? To ask this question is to answer it. If those shadowy forces really wanted to remove Trump, the Republicans would also bend a knee to them.

Mobo2000

Apart from the heated adjectives, fiery pits and heart-staking, the post from NDPP at #60 is fairly reflective of a lot far left anti-imperialist opinion.   There's a bit of venting there, but hardly loony.    If JKR and others take issue with it, provide us your reasoning.  I agree with the general thrust of what was posted at #60, and I've posted articles by Matt Taibbi with the same general view:  The Democrats chose the Ukraine issue to pursue impeachment in part because it would allow Biden an uptick of media coverage, which he would use to play defense against Trump's attacks, which he is (seen as) good at.   I also believe they anticipated an additional benefit - that the senate trial would involve Warren and Sanders at a time that would be damaging to their ability to campaign.   

I do believe the facts on the ground are showing impeachment is already backfiring -- Republican fundraising is up, polls are steady, and the public does not seem gripped by the impeachment show.   

RE: Michael's post @ 65 -- In the initial Trump run to become the republican candidate for president, he was very much opposed by the Republican party, and most of Republican media.   I think the main reason for this (apart from his boorishness and inability to talk like a regular politician) was his support for better relations with Russia, his (stated) desire to end "useless" wars that cost America money, and his comments about NATO being old and useless and a bad deal for America, and Nato members needing to pay more.   In the past 2 years relations with Russia have cratered, the US hasn't launched any new wars but als0 has not reduced it's presence anywhere ,and has been as active as ever militarily, and has kept busy trying to add new NATO members.   Trump got his way on NATO members paying more, though - with Canada chipping in our due.

I do not particularly think the shadowy forces want Trump gone any more, he's shown in the past 2 years that he is controllable on foreign policy, and he was already perfectly under control on domestic economic policy, where Wall Street loves (and largely designed) what he's doing.    

The DNC have ties to big business all over America, but more in the financial services and IT/high tech sectors, while the Republicans tend to have more ties with resource companies and manufacturing.   Trump is adequately serving both sectors interests now, I think the split, if there is one, in the "shadowy forces" supporting or opposing Trump, is about which sector gets the bigger piece of the imperial pie, not a dispute about strategy, policy or "direction".    

NDPP

"If I was a Republican strategist, I'd be thanking god that Democrats have elected Adam Schiff to such a prominent role. That led to the Russiagate disaster and now it's leading to more deranged performances like this..." (and vid)

https://twitter.com/aaronjmate/status/1220456985059041281

Sean in Ottawa

NDPP wrote:

"If I was a Republican strategist, I'd be thanking god that Democrats have elected Adam Schiff to such a prominent role. That led to the Russiagate disaster and now it's leading to more deranged performances like this..." (and vid)

https://twitter.com/aaronjmate/status/1220456985059041281

So they say -- even as he is being seen by almost all observers as very effective in laying out the case.

Often we see on twitter what people want to be true rather than what they know is true. What is interesting here is that this guy is not a self-professed GOP supporter. I cannot make out why he thinks Schiff helps the GOP in the way he is suggesting. I think the refusal of much of the media to air the hearings is a bigger issue. The case is very compelling.

Trump is definitely wounded here despite what the GOP are pretending. The questions are whether his fan base will care and whether they are enough to get him re-elected. This is not clear although it is possible.

The strategy you can see, as Trump attends to things like a march for anti-abortion, is not an attempt to convince anyone but rather inspire the base. I think Trump has a smaller base than those who oppose him BUT those who oppose him are less united and less likely to vote. The contest here is whether they can overcome this and if Trump can hold on to his base and bring every one of them to the polls. There is no question that vote suppression will be at play. The Democrats run the risk of producing another dud centrist candidate and have large numbers stay home.

NDPP

Adam Schiff's Long Scary Warmongering Speech

https://original.antiwar.com/Daniel_Lazare/2020/01/23/adam-schiffs-very-...

"All the usual suspects are praising Adam Schiff's marathon two-and-a-half hour Senate speech on Wednesday to the skies. NYT columnist Gail Collins says it was a 'great job' and that Schiff is 'a rockstar' for pulling it off. But in fact it was the opposite - a fear mongering, sword-rattling, harangue that will not only raise tensions with Russia for no good reason, but sends a chilling message to dissidents at home that if they deviate from Russiagate orthodoxy by one iota, they'll be driven from the fold. When in doubt, just remember to bleat: America good, Russia baa-aa-aad.

But while it would be nice to dismiss this as a joke, it's not. Schiff's emergence as a leader of the Democrat impeachment drive means that the party is regrouping along the most regressive Cold War lines. As reckless and appalling as Trump's behaviour is in the Persian Gulf, the emerging Democrat worldview is shaping up as no less extreme. Because it sees Russia as mounting a multi-pronged offensive, the implication is that the US must respond in kind. This means more troop deployments, more forces mobilized to counter Russian threats from Venezuela to the Middle East, more TV talking-heads going on and on about this or that Kremlin conspiracy and more labelling of people like Tulsi Gabbard and Jill Stein as Russian assets.*

While Bernie supporters may have thought that Democrats were edging away from such views, they're plainly in the wrong. Schiff's new found prominence shows that the neocons are back in the saddle. Impeachment advocates should be careful of what they wish for because the anti-Trump foreces are turning out to be no less dangerous..."

*"You know, basically the Russians were like, hey, let's do everything we can to elect Donald Trump. And they also said Bernie Sanders, but, you know, that's for another day" - Hillary Clinton on Howard Stern, Dec 6, 2019

Sean in Ottawa

Where is the evidence that what he said wasn't true?

NDPP

Or Hillary on Bernie right?

Sean in Ottawa

NDPP wrote:

Or Hillary on Bernie right?

Are you really comparing what Hillary said to the hearings?

NDPP

Yes. Both completely mendacious and pure political theatre. Hope American voters enjoy watching their crooked representatives in the dirty duopoly play political baseball while the country falls apart all around them during the last three years they've pursued these games virtually to the exclusion of all else.  But I'm told they largely stopped watching the stupid, pointless, expensive clown show  and a crime spree of government against itself that never ends a long ago.

"Russiagate, it's a bad joke. The whole world's laughing." - Chomsky-

'Mueller Finds No Trump-Russia Conspiracy': NYT

NDPP

Salutin: Impeachment Trial Meant to Distract Voters From Bernie Sanders

https://rabble.ca/columnists/2020/01/impeachment-trial-meant-distract-vo...

"I'm sorry if this is your first impeachment. It's a poor intro to the genre. It's so pathetic there may never be another...IMO, and I concur with Republicans on this, it's an attempt to take the attention off the race for the Democratic nomination in case Bernie Sanders starts running away with it. That appears to scare mainstream Democrats more than four years of Donald Trump. Otherwise, why did House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and other Democratic leaders refuse to impeach till now? The 'trial' keeps Sanders off the campaign trail since, as a senator, he must attend proceeds in DC...worst impeachment ever."

bekayne

josh

NDPP wrote:

The Jimmy Dore Show

https://youtu.be/l6QZeKb7l3Q

"Shahid Buttar and Jimmy Dore debate impeachment."

Like Russiagate before, Ukrainegate/impeachment is another tawdry botched Dem clown show not a serious impeachment proceeding - meant only to distract chumps and gullibles from the real truth that "the Democratic Party won't pursue corruption charges because corruption in Washington is sadly, entirely bipartisan."

 

Answer of President Donald J Trump in Proceedings Before the US Senate

https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Answer-of-Presiden...

"...The Articles of Impeachment are constitutionally invalid on their face. They fail to allege any crime or violation of law whatsoever, let alone 'high crimes and misdemeanors' as required by the Constitution. Nothing in the Articles could permit even beginning to consider removing a duly elected President or warrant nullifying an election."

Another big nothingburger coming right up...

 

SMH.  A violation of the law is not required in order to be an impeachable offense.  See impeachment articles against Andrew Johnson and Richard Nixon.  Abuse of power and obstruction of Congress are not criminal offenses.

NDPP

Impeachment As A Distraction

https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/01/24/impeachment-as-a-distraction/

"Well the circus has arrived in the United States capital, and the media is all agog at the show! Of course, like wrestling and magic tricks, the conclusion is foregone, and it is all nothing but smoke and mirrors. But what smoke and mirrors! This is the United States of America in all its glory. This is the vaunted 'democracy' that politicians claim is the envy of the world. Heaven help us all."

Sean in Ottawa

NDPP wrote:

Impeachment As A Distraction

https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/01/24/impeachment-as-a-distraction/

"Well the circus has arrived in the United States capital, and the media is all agog at the show! Of course, like wrestling and magic tricks, the conclusion is foregone, and it is all nothing but smoke and mirrors. But what smoke and mirrors! This is the United States of America in all its glory. This is the vaunted 'democracy' that politicians claim is the envy of the world. Heaven help us all."

If you do not click on the link you could be misled by the quote. There is no suggestion the Trump is not guilty. The reason the result is foregone is that Republicans do not care. Here is another quote:

"Yes, let’s all hear the words of Republicans who defend actions that clearly violate the U.S. constitution, and those of Democrats who, in righteous indignation (which they demonstrate on cue; like any actor reading a script, the words don’t mean much), accuse Trump of crimes he is actually guilty of. And, of course, let’s all marvel at the bizarre rantings that are almost constantly ‘tweeted’ from the White House to the world."

kropotkin1951

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

If you do not click on the link you could be misled by the quote.

Thanks for the advice.

Sean in Ottawa

-

NDPP

'Nobody Ever Gets Points For Saying Anything Good About Russia': Stephen Cohen Says As Rep Schiff Spreads Ignorance About Putin (and vid)

https://www.unz.com/scohen/nobody-ever-gets-points-for-saying-anything-g...

"US Congress heavyweights like Adam Schiff deeply misunderstand Russia but keep on bashing Moscow because it has become 'politically advantageous' in Washington, Russia researcher Stephen Cohen said..."

NDPP

Poroshenko 'Most Corrupt President Ever', Hunter Biden's Board Job May Have Been Bribe For His Father - UkraineGate Documentary (and vid)

https://on.rt.com/aa1m

"Former Ukrainian officials told a French journalist that President Petro Poroshenko* was directly involved in corruption and that Hunter Biden's job at the gas factory Burisma was a bribe to his father, the US Vice President..."

*'My dear friend Petro Poroshenko...'(Chrystia Freeland). We also need a Canadian public inquiry into crooked dealings with the US coup-installed Ukrainian regime and approximately a billion dollars in 'aid' and 'loans' etc.

josh

RT pulling out the stops to keep their man Trump in office.

NDPP

And the Dems theirs to put 'Creepy Joe' in instead.

Aristotleded24

Michael Moriarity wrote:
wsws wrote:

The Democrats are not opposing Trump for his many real attacks on Democratic rights, including the assassination of a high Iranian government official, the destruction of the right to asylum and the incarceration of immigrants in concentration camps, the illegal diversion of Pentagon funds to build his border wall with Mexico, and his incitement of right-wing violence. Nor are they opposing his brutal cuts in food stamps, Medicaid, housing and other social benefits, or his massive tax-cuts for the rich. They are instead seeking to remove him from office or rein him in because he is seen by those sectors of the military, intelligence and foreign party establishment, as well as Wall Street for whom the Democratic Party speaks, as a threat to critical foreign policy interests of American imperialism..."

Does this mean that the Republicans in congress are not controlled by the same "sectors of the military, intelligence and foreign party establishment, as well as Wall Street"? That they are free spirits who follow the dictates of their consciences, rather than those of the oligarchs? To ask this question is to answer it. If those shadowy forces really wanted to remove Trump, the Republicans would also bend a knee to them.

Here's essentially what happened:

The Democrats had enough numbers in the House to impeach Trump. The Republicans have enough votes in the Senate to acquit. It's simply a partisan process with no principles involved, and was a foregone conclusion from the start. Anyone watching this thing objectively knows that. Meanwhile, it's distracting from other issues that affect people in their day-to-day lives, which is why it has not done well in TV ratings.

josh

NDPP wrote:

And the Dems theirs to put 'Creepy Joe' in instead.

 

At least you finally admit it.

josh

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Michael Moriarity wrote:
wsws wrote:

The Democrats are not opposing Trump for his many real attacks on Democratic rights, including the assassination of a high Iranian government official, the destruction of the right to asylum and the incarceration of immigrants in concentration camps, the illegal diversion of Pentagon funds to build his border wall with Mexico, and his incitement of right-wing violence. Nor are they opposing his brutal cuts in food stamps, Medicaid, housing and other social benefits, or his massive tax-cuts for the rich. They are instead seeking to remove him from office or rein him in because he is seen by those sectors of the military, intelligence and foreign party establishment, as well as Wall Street for whom the Democratic Party speaks, as a threat to critical foreign policy interests of American imperialism..."

Does this mean that the Republicans in congress are not controlled by the same "sectors of the military, intelligence and foreign party establishment, as well as Wall Street"? That they are free spirits who follow the dictates of their consciences, rather than those of the oligarchs? To ask this question is to answer it. If those shadowy forces really wanted to remove Trump, the Republicans would also bend a knee to them.

Here's essentially what happened:

The Democrats had enough numbers in the House to impeach Trump. The Republicans have enough votes in the Senate to acquit. It's simply a partisan process with no principles involved, and was a foregone conclusion from the start. Anyone watching this thing objectively knows that. Meanwhile, it's distracting from other issues that affect people in their day-to-day lives, which is why it has not done well in TV ratings.

It's partisan, except one side has facts and history on its side, while the others would vote against it this president shot someone on live TV in the middle of Fifth Avenue.People didn't watch because there was no suspense on the outcome.

But as I've said, Democrats in the House should have held off until courts decided on Trump's efforts to suppress evidence.  That would also have given them the opportunity to have Parnas, and perhaps Bolton, testfy.

NDPP

The Nation: Democrats Need To Break Their Cold War-Addled Impeachment Fever

https://t.co/G55mOoiRu7?amp=1

"When liberals start rallying around John Bolton, you know something is off...The very fact that such militarist chauvinism is being adopted by the leadership of the Democratic Party is far more dangerous than anything they have accused Trump of in this impeachment trial..."

Aristotleded24

josh wrote:

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Michael Moriarity wrote:
wsws wrote:

The Democrats are not opposing Trump for his many real attacks on Democratic rights, including the assassination of a high Iranian government official, the destruction of the right to asylum and the incarceration of immigrants in concentration camps, the illegal diversion of Pentagon funds to build his border wall with Mexico, and his incitement of right-wing violence. Nor are they opposing his brutal cuts in food stamps, Medicaid, housing and other social benefits, or his massive tax-cuts for the rich. They are instead seeking to remove him from office or rein him in because he is seen by those sectors of the military, intelligence and foreign party establishment, as well as Wall Street for whom the Democratic Party speaks, as a threat to critical foreign policy interests of American imperialism..."

Does this mean that the Republicans in congress are not controlled by the same "sectors of the military, intelligence and foreign party establishment, as well as Wall Street"? That they are free spirits who follow the dictates of their consciences, rather than those of the oligarchs? To ask this question is to answer it. If those shadowy forces really wanted to remove Trump, the Republicans would also bend a knee to them.

Here's essentially what happened:

The Democrats had enough numbers in the House to impeach Trump. The Republicans have enough votes in the Senate to acquit. It's simply a partisan process with no principles involved, and was a foregone conclusion from the start. Anyone watching this thing objectively knows that. Meanwhile, it's distracting from other issues that affect people in their day-to-day lives, which is why it has not done well in TV ratings.

It's partisan, except one side has facts and history on its side, while the others would vote against it this president shot someone on live TV in the middle of Fifth Avenue.People didn't watch because there was no suspense on the outcome.

But as I've said, Democrats in the House should have held off until courts decided on Trump's efforts to suppress evidence.  That would also have given them the opportunity to have Parnas, and perhaps Bolton, testfy.

Average people do not have a clear understanding of all the processes, testimony, laws or whatever to make sense of this impeachment process, and nor do they have the time. That just leaves entrenched partisan camps in the Democrat and Republican parties who will spin whatever they can and say "see, I was right!" Trump will still be acquitted, and will use that to rally his base to say that the Establishment wants to take him down, and that they failed.

The strategy that would have worked would have been to impeach him over his hawkish military actions. You don't have to know all the ins and outs of his foreign policy to be nervous that he has his finger close to the red button. Furthermore, this will clearly show the difference between candidate Trump, who in 2016 was actually the less militaristic and hawkish of the 2 candidates, and President Trump, who has continued in the destructive foreign policy that scares people. Unfortunately the Democrats will never touch that because that would expose their own complicity in war crimes. Nancy Pelosi, after all, refused to move to impeach Bush, and Obama decided to "look forward not backward" by refusing to prosecute the previous administration for war crimes.

NorthReport

Does it really matter as they are 2 sides of the same coin, eh!

Sean in Ottawa

NorthReport wrote:

Does it really matter as they are 2 sides of the same coin, eh!

Not sure if you are being silly or sarcastic. The fact you can criticize both does not mean that you cannot tell when one is worse than the other.

iyraste1313

Tom Luongo....

Gabbard is not running for re-election in Hawaii. She says she’s committed to running for President. I don’t think she’s getting the nomination and, frankly, I don’t think she is either.

She just filed a defamation of character lawsuit against Hillary for the smears Hillary threw around I linked to above. She puts financial pressure on Hillary knowing that the Clintons couldn’t drum up support and dollars last year during their expensive speaking tour no one went to.

Gabbard denies any kind of third party run, getting the Ron Paul treatment from the media. But, she’s a very acceptable person to a lot of disaffected Trump voters like myself. She speaks to them and can help carry Bernie as his running mate if he somehow makes it through the convention to be the Democratic nominee.

So, yes, Gabbard isn’t running for re-election because she’s running as Sanders’ Vice-Presidential candidate.

And it may not be for the Democratic party in the end. That’s the part you have to factor in here.

Game-planning this out, these two are running a real insurgency within the DNC to either get the nomination or split off and run as Independents. This is Bernie’s last kick at the can. He’s already gotten the gold watch from the DNC in 2016, living the high life only a high member of the Politburo can.

Gabbard has burned all the bridges within the DNC she can, almost gleefully. That makes her a person of integrity, of authenticity, in a U.S. political wasteland of charlatans, reality show hucksters and outright thieves.

contrarianna

Michael Moriarity wrote:

wsws wrote:

The Democrats are not opposing Trump for his many real attacks on Democratic rights, including the assassination of a high Iranian government official, the destruction of the right to asylum and the incarceration of immigrants in concentration camps, the illegal diversion of Pentagon funds to build his border wall with Mexico, and his incitement of right-wing violence. Nor are they opposing his brutal cuts in food stamps, Medicaid, housing and other social benefits, or his massive tax-cuts for the rich. They are instead seeking to remove him from office or rein him in because he is seen by those sectors of the military, intelligence and foreign party establishment, as well as Wall Street for whom the Democratic Party speaks, as a threat to critical foreign policy interests of American imperialism..."

Does this mean that the Republicans in congress are not controlled by the same "sectors of the military, intelligence and foreign party establishment, as well as Wall Street"? That they are free spirits who follow the dictates of their consciences, rather than those of the oligarchs? To ask this question is to answer it. If those shadowy forces really wanted to remove Trump, the Republicans would also bend a knee to them.

You make a very valid point there; that wsws article is, at the least, woefully out of date for a 2020 publication.

Trump was considered a loose cannon and not the first choice for connected Republicans or the security state agencies which assisted in undermining him in 2016 and for years after.

But Jaba-the-Trump wallows now largely unmolested in the swamp of the Republican Party and has swept away most of  the initial misgivings by the military/procurement and security agencies that he might be insufficiently aggressive in imperial policy. 

Contrary to Trump's campaign promises (if any of his belches can be considered "promises") of withdrawing from foreign interventionism, he has instead shown his eagerness to self-servingly comply with all the major constituencies of empire.

Because of Trump's voiced anti-interventionism during his campaign, and his (relatively) inactive early years in office in that area, many of the neoconservative warmongers and regime change zealots who had coalesced around the government of GW Bush, drifted back to support of the Democratic Party or became "Never Trumpers" within the Republican rubric.

As it became evident Trump would do anything to enhance his own position, including a rapacious neocon foreign policy, many of those same people returned to his support.

Only a year ago, this was much of the story:
 

As Democratic Elites Reunite With Neocons, the Party’s Voters Are Becoming Far More Militaristic and Pro-War Than Republicans
Glenn Greenwald
January 11 2019, 6:38 a.m.
....
At the same time, Democratic policy elites in Washington are once again formally aligning with neoconservatives, even to the point of creating joint foreign policy advocacy groups (a reunion that predated Trump). The leading Democratic Party think tank, the Center for American Progress, donated $200,000 to the neoconservative American Enterprise Institute and has multilevel alliances with warmongering institutions. By far the most influential liberal media outlet, MSNBC, is stuffed full of former Bush-Cheney officials, security state operatives, and agents, while even the liberal stars are notably hawkish (a decade ago, long before she went as far down the pro-war and Cold Warrior rabbit hole that she now occupies, Rachel Maddow heralded herself as a “national security liberal” who was “all about counterterrorism”).

All of this has resulted in a new generation of Democrats, politically engaged for the first time as a result of fears over Trump, being inculcated with values of militarism and imperialism, trained to view once-discredited, war-loving neocons such as Bill Kristol, Max Boot, and David Frum, and former CIA and FBI leaders [and now Bolton] as noble experts and trusted voices of conscience. It’s inevitable that all of these trends would produce a party that is increasingly pro-war and militaristic, and polling data now leaves little doubt that this transformation — which will endure long after Trump is gone — is well under way.
 

https://theintercept.com/2019/01/11/as-democratic-elites-reunite-with-ne...

But the situation has altered considerably in a year with Trump's increased foreign bellicosity.

The Neocons Strike Back
How a discredited foreign policy ideology continues to wreak havoc in Washington and around the world
By Jacob Heilbrunn
January 23, 2020

 

[A little background on Jacob Heilbrunn. He was years ago a participant in neoconservatism and later became a critic of it, writing a history of the movement and its different phases, They Knew They Were Right: The Rise of the Neocons.]

....
Neocons have been quick to recognize the new, more belligerent Trump—and the potential maneuvering room he’s now created for their movement. Jonathan S. Tobin, a former editor at Commentary and a contributor to National Review, rejoiced in Haaretz that “the neo-isolationist wing of the GOP, for which Carlson is a spokesperson, is losing the struggle for control of Trump’s foreign policy.” Tobin, however, added an important caveat: “When it comes to Iran, Trump needs no prodding from the likes of Bolton to act like a neoconservative. Just as important, the entire notion of anyone—be it Carlson, former White House senior advisor Steve Bannon, or any cabinet official like Secretary of State Mike Pompeo—being able to control Trump is a myth.”

In other words, whether the neocons themselves are occupying top positions in the Trump administration is almost irrelevant. The ideology itself has reemerged to a degree that even Trump himself seems hard pressed to resist it—if he even wants to.
....
At a minimum, the traditional Republican hard-line foreign policy approach has now fused with neoconservatism so that the two are virtually indistinguishable. At a maximum, neoconservatism shapes the dominant foreign policy worldview in Washington, which is why Democrats were falling over themselves to assure voters that Soleimani—a “bad guy”—had it coming. Any objections that his killing might boomerang back on the U.S. are met with cries from the right that Democrats are siding with the enemy. This truly is a policy of “maximum pressure” at home and abroad.

As Trump takes an extreme hard line against Iran, the neoconservatives may ultimately get their long-held wish of a war with the ayatollahs. When it ends in a fresh disaster, they can always argue that it only failed because it wasn’t prosecuted vigorously enough—and the shuffle will begin again.
 

https://newrepublic.com/article/156266/neocons-strike-back

 

 

NDPP

Hedges: America - Land of Make Believe

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/america-land-of-make-believe/

"...The hope that Mueller's report would see Trump disgraced, impeached and removed from office, the hope that Trump's December 2019 impeachment would lead to his Senate conviction and ouster, the hope that he will be defeated in the polls in November are psychological exits from the crisis - The collapse of democratic institutions, including the press, and the corporate corruption of laws, electoral politics and norms that once made our imperfect democracy possible. The embrace of self-delusion marks the death spasms of all civilizations. We are in the final stage..."

Sean in Ottawa

NDPP wrote:

Hedges: America - Land of Make Believe

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/america-land-of-make-believe/

"...The hope that Mueller's report would see Trump disgraced, impeached and removed from office, the hope that Trump's December 2019 impeachment would lead to his Senate conviction and ouster, the hope that he will be defeated in the polls in November are psychological exits from the crisis - The collapse of democratic institutions, including the press, and the corporate corruption of laws, electoral politics and norms that once made our imperfect democracy possible. The embrace of self-delusion marks the death spasms of all civilizations. We are in the final stage..."

What a brilliant, problematic and dangerous article. The writer has a pulizer prize as a writer. His message here is one of hopelessless, defeatism and powerlessness. It makes good reading but not much else.

The US is indeed a country of delusion. It got to the place it is now for that reason. The first paragraph ought to be a rallying cry. This reality explained in the first paragraph is one of the participation and enabling by the US citizenry. It is not something done to a powerless America. It is something done by the people of the US. Enabled by them, delivered for the US people and by the US people. Sure they have been sold a bill of goods but they bought it and now ought to know different. The idea that this nation has no agency in this is actually the cause as well as the prevention of any cure. The article, masterful writing that it is, overlooks this.

The second paragraph follows on from the first although it admits that "we retreat into illusions," even as he argues for a retreat into hopelessness. It continues "The longer we fail to name and confront our physical and moral decay, the more demagogues who peddle illusions and fantasies become empowered." Fair enough. It then sinks into dispair. It states a list of false hopes from Trump's moderation (who really believed that), to adults in the room, the Mueller report, the impeachment, all flights of fantasy without any choices for the public. Then it adds to that list the hope he will be defeated. This public choice that has not yet happened that surely will be at least close. That is when it descends into dispair and defeatism. 

The rest of the article goes on to make the argument that extinction is the  only possible outcome, defeat cannot be delivered to Trump. Seriously. At this point the guy should be getting therapy rather than inflicting his depressing and pointless powerlessness on all readers. 

Yes, the US is in a bad way. Yes, without an unlikely reversal they are doomed to take the whole world to destruction. But the idea of giving up when you have all that is possible at stake and no alternative does not sound like logic. There are times to accept defeat and move on to something more worthwhile. But when accepting defeat means no movng on and nothing worthwhile is possible, it is illogical to accept defeat.

Let's unpack this series of events. The writer certainly suggests that Trump is spectacularly bad. He acknowledges that he came in by an election. Therefore, that elections can make a difference. He then goes on with a series of false hopes, but who really shared those? The next people's choice is the election. No, it is not going to be fair. Yes, the system of the US is sick like with cancer. But there is no evidence that it was any more of a foregone conclusion than Trump's defeat in 2016. It will be a close election but it will be decided by many people who have yet to make a choice.

The election everyone knows is about a minority winning as a majority sit on their hands saying they cannot do anything.

Like a person with a cancer diagnosis and long, but still possible odds, you take the chemo. At times you may refuse chemo if you can preserve quality of some remainder of life. In this case the chemo (fighting in this election) does not make us sick. It does not degrade any remaining quality of life. Living without any further hope does that. Giving up is more painful than fighting in this case.

Other countries' peoples have fought back against long odds. The reality is that people have to do this from time to time. What sets the US apart is that the people who want justice are passive. They accept their fate as this writer does. Where are the street marches? They fizzled out. Where are the strikes? They cannot muster the courage of a school girl. Literally. Says Vanessa Nakate “I wanted to do something that would cause change to the lives of the people in my community and my country,” as she fights the long odds. When she takes action to fight and offer hope she puts the shame to first world entitled and elite writers who speak of giving up without any hope. 

The enablers of the Trumpists are the people who are willing to grant them anything without a fight. That sadly includes people who identify as progressives, with talent and awards to prove it, asking others to give up.

No. 

The election will be hard. It will not be fair. It is not in the history books yet and it can be fought. And if it does not result in a win, fuck those people who have had good lives and have great jobs as their careers wind down and who want to say it is over. Fuck them for giving up. Listen to the young people of courage who have less than they do and still call on the world to fight. Listen to Vanessa Nakate, "The media is so biased by the climate crisis. Its focus is on selling news." News of depression and giving up is the battle for the right. They are the ones who said about the environmental crisis that it was not real. They are the ones now saying to give up becuase it is already to late. Let's not be sucked in by a leftist selling the bill of goods of giving up. Be blunt: there is no peace to gain from giving up, no dignity in our final days before extinction to be found in giving up, knowing that after us there will be nobody to wonder if things might have been different if we put up more of a fight.

Dum Spiro Spero.

Fight.

Sean in Ottawa

BTW You all know how Trump has split the press in the US favouring some and not others.

Johnson justr tried the same thing. He got the journalists he liked to go on one side and the ones he did not like to go on the other and asked the ones he did not like to leave. They all walked out.

The US is passive. The left has no guts most of the time. They poetically wax on about their defeatism. Where are the national strikes? 

Aristotleded24

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

NDPP wrote:

Hedges: America - Land of Make Believe

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/america-land-of-make-believe/

"...The hope that Mueller's report would see Trump disgraced, impeached and removed from office, the hope that Trump's December 2019 impeachment would lead to his Senate conviction and ouster, the hope that he will be defeated in the polls in November are psychological exits from the crisis - The collapse of democratic institutions, including the press, and the corporate corruption of laws, electoral politics and norms that once made our imperfect democracy possible. The embrace of self-delusion marks the death spasms of all civilizations. We are in the final stage..."

What a brilliant, problematic and dangerous article. The writer has a pulizer prize as a writer. His message here is one of hopelessless, defeatism and powerlessness. It makes good reading but not much else.

The US is indeed a country of delusion. It got to the place it is now for that reason. The first paragraph ought to be a rallying cry. This reality explained in the first paragraph is one of the participation and enabling by the US citizenry. It is not something done to a powerless America. It is something done by the people of the US. Enabled by them, delivered for the US people and by the US people. Sure they have been sold a bill of goods but they bought it and now ought to know different. The idea that this nation has no agency in this is actually the cause as well as the prevention of any cure. The article, masterful writing that it is, overlooks this.

The second paragraph follows on from the first although it admits that "we retreat into illusions," even as he argues for a retreat into hopelessness. It continues "The longer we fail to name and confront our physical and moral decay, the more demagogues who peddle illusions and fantasies become empowered." Fair enough. It then sinks into dispair. It states a list of false hopes from Trump's moderation (who really believed that), to adults in the room, the Mueller report, the impeachment, all flights of fantasy without any choices for the public. Then it adds to that list the hope he will be defeated. This public choice that has not yet happened that surely will be at least close. That is when it descends into dispair and defeatism. 

The rest of the article goes on to make the argument that extinction is the  only possible outcome, defeat cannot be delivered to Trump. Seriously. At this point the guy should be getting therapy rather than inflicting his depressing and pointless powerlessness on all readers.

Hedges is a clergyman by profession. He would know about the period in history when the Kingdom of Israel fell into the hands of the Assyrans and the Babylonians. The Hebrew Bible is full of writings, from the sense of doom as this was all crashing down, to the bitter lamentations. In spite of all of that, the Israelites fought against all odds and managed to maintain themselves as a distinct people. That's where faith comes in. As you said, when it is bleak you keep on fighting to preserve a chance of a brighter future.  Hedges should be aware of all that.

NDPP

Have Adam Schiff Talk More About Ukraine

https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1224708243504668672

"Meanwhile, according to Gallup: 'President Trump's approval rating has risen to 47%, his highest in Gallup polling since he took office in 2017.' Have Adam Schiff talk more about Ukraine."

kropotkin1951

Hedges first paragraph is a wonderfully crafted piece that artfully weaves the major big lies that the US police sate relies on to keep the money flowing from the ghettos to the billionaires. All authoritarian governments hide behind high sounding lies about themselves and their relation to truth and justice. The US has developed the most sophisticated propaganda machine the world has ever seen. The billionaires run media platforms that amplify the steady diet of big lies that the masses are bombarded with none stop. The citizens who are not deluded by the propaganda are labelled as extreme and marginalized because the last thing the ruling elite in Pax Americana wants is for a great awakening of the masses. If the world is lucky the US ruling elite will start a civil war among themselves using their heavily armed security forces. Maybe they can do us all a favour and wipe each other out by attacking each other bunkers with all the nasty weapons their mercenary forces use in Yemen and other places.

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Hedges first paragraph is a wonderfully crafted piece that artfully weaves the major big lies that the US police sate relies on to keep the money flowing from the ghettos to the billionaires. All authoritarian governments hide behind high sounding lies about themselves and their relation to truth and justice. The US has developed the most sophisticated propaganda machine the world has ever seen. The billionaires run media platforms that amplify the steady diet of big lies that the masses are bombarded with none stop. The citizens who are not deluded by the propaganda are labelled as extreme and marginalized because the last thing the ruling elite in Pax Americana wants is for a great awakening of the masses. If the world is lucky the US ruling elite will start a civil war among themselves using their heavily armed security forces. Maybe they can do us all a favour and wipe each other out by attacking each other bunkers with all the nasty weapons their mercenary forces use in Yemen and other places.

He certainly seems to be questionning some of the big lies before giving up...

I think what is dangerous about this article is the fact that he raises many of the objections to this American propaganda and then instead of fighting it he says -- all is lost give up. 

In that sense it is like the propaganda of climate deniers who first denied the problem but now are increasingly are willing to admit the problem but deny that there is any point or ability to do anything about it.

kropotkin1951

I think he is right that it is collapsing and I don't believe that there is anything redeemable about this sadistic militaristic system that was built on slavery and theft of indigenous land and the myth of the American Dream and American Exceptionalism. The sooner it implodes and disappears the better it will be for the global community.

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