Protest NATO/G8 Summit - May 2012 - Chicago

104 posts / 0 new
Last post
NDPP

Veterans For Peace Calls for End to NATO

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/pressroom/news/2012/05/10/veterans-for-p...

"Veterans for Peace works for the abolition of war, and while that process will take many steps, one that should be taken immediately is the dissolution of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization..."

sounds like an excellent platform for a Canadian political party too..

NDPP

Malalai Joya: 'The Whole World Will Be Watching Chicago Anti-NATO Protests'

http://rabble.ca/news/2012/05/malalai-joya-millions-afghans-support-anti...

"The war in Afghanistan will be at the top of NATO's agenda, and it will be a focus of the mass demonstrations planned outside the summit. This weekend's protests will likely face repression. But it's vital that people take to the streets to raise their voices. No one can believe the words of Obama and others who say they are working for peace even while they continue to make war and kill our peoploe in bombings, night-raids and now more and more drone attacks that kill civilians every week and sometimes every day in Afghanistan, Pakistan and other countries..

NATO's bombs will never bring democracy and justice to Afghanistan or any other country"

NDPP

IEA Resistance Statement : 'If The Realities Are Not Accepted the Chicago Conference Will Be Another Failure'

http://shahamat-english.com

"As long as the invaders do not accept the ground realities in Afghanistan and do not acknowledge the natural rights of the Afghan nation, the Afghan issue can neither be solved by strategic cooperation nor by the NATO members. A lasting occupation means a lasting resistance. The colonial game of the Americans is a total failture in Afghanistan. We call upon the nation of America and the NATO member countries to arrange large scale protests...:"

Slumberjack

I believe I've critiqued them all at one point or another...Trotsky, Lenin, Stalin, Hitler et al, while managing to avoid being rounded up for questioning. And lumping them all in together like that makes it convenient for discussion purposes I'm sure. It's all in the delivery you know. Equating Marxist and Communist theorizing and the resulting wish lists with support for the mass murderers and genocidal maniacs of history doesn't appear to my mind at least as a seeking out or contributing to expanded progressive thought. Such dialogue is a regression from thought imv.

Leigh

"rabble.ca is a public, independent, progressive news and information source. In defining itself as "progressive," rabble.ca embraces a pro-human rights, pro-feminist, anti-racist, queer-positive, anti-imperialist and pro-labour stance, and as such encourages discussions which develop and expand progressive thought."- Babble Policy.

I don't see the words 'left-wing' here.  Rebecca West is wrong when she said "this is a left-wing site", and wrong to label clarification of specifics of terms as "anti-communist".  Could someone not be 'communist' or 'socialist' and disagree with the behaviour of Trotsky, Lenin,  Stalin or Hitler, who called themselves 'Socialist'?  Could anyone not question specific beliefs without being called 'anti-whatever' and getting kicked off a "discussion" site?

Given the purpose of rabble, to "encourage discussions which develop and expand progressive thought", Catchfire is wrong to lable discussion of definitions as "derailing",  especially in the linked thread, titled "'Socialism' just fine with Ontario NDP leader".

M.Spector is using personal insult, and trying to expose other babblers, contrary to babble policy:

"You agree to avoid personal insults, attacks and mischievous antagonism (otherwise known as "trolling"). You will not post material that is inaccurate, abusive, hateful, harassing, obscene, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy or otherwise in violation of Canadian law. You understand that racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, classist (e.g. poor-bashing) and other oppressive language that degrades marginalized communities is not acceptable."- Babble Policy.

An oppressive phrase in post forty-four of the Shimon Peres thread is still posted, though Christian communities in some parts of the world are marginalized, like in Palestine [edited to add]by Israeli authorities.  Apologies are required, as i try to do when words are offensive, and to remove offense.

Where is a babble/rabble official definition of  'socialism' and 'communism', by which babblers are supposedly to adhere? 

Nowhere.

In a world where we have had far too much fighting through name-calling, misuse of definitions of terms to justify repression of 'socialists', 'communists','conservatives', 'liberals', 'anarchists' or whatever, while people self-defining aren't even in agreement over definitions, with eachother, from one moment to the next or one century to the next, whether the definition pertains to politics, economics, both or neither, sociology, math, science, etc., in specific issues or overall,..

it seems that clarifying and finding some consensus around unethical, unacceptable behaviour of long-standing divisive issues (like the behaviour of Lenin,  Trotsky, and Stalin, Hitler, or currently abusive behaviour of some politicians, in line with Babble Policy which is  "pro-human rights", would be useful,

particularly as this thread is about fighting (NATO) and is occuring in Chicago where there is a substantial portion of the population from the former Soviet Union, and where advertising and event descriptions are rife with political names which, unless clarified, could lead to a lot of unnecessary angst in the general public.

Do activists want to 'develop and expand progressive thought', from the babble policy, and do they want their movements to be able to communicate clearly with the public, to grow, or do activists want peace and justice to be marginalized?

 

 

 

NDPP

PML Presents: NATO Panel -' Social Responsibility and National Security' (and video)

http://www.opednews.com/articles/Video-Unprecedented-Prote-by-Rick-Rozof...

Unprecedented NATO Protester Versus NATO - debate, Rick Rozoff et al

please forward to the NDP re the need to terminate NATO

NDPP

Canada Out of NATO, Afghanistan-NATO Out of Everywhere: Toronto Protests Against Chicago NATO Summit!

http://www.acp-cpa.ca/en/Protest-NATO.html

Where: US Consulate, 360 University (and Dundas)

When: Saturday, May 19, 1:00 PM

STOP NATO!

Leigh

Leaders of the G8 need to spend to prioritize employment and social supports, introduce a Robin Hood tax, redemocratize central banks and all banking, move away from militarism, reduce climate change and respect the Earth if they want to stabilize economies.

 -from notes at http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/policynote/2012/05/de-growth-or-growth-m...

NDPP

NATO PROTEST COVERAGE AND INFO:

Chicago Cops Start Preemptive Arrests on Eve of NATO Summit

http://chicago.indymedia.org

http://natoprotest.org

http://www.livestream.com/chicagoindymedia

NDPP

Indymedia Coverage on NATO

http://www.youtube.com/user/natoindymedia

Leigh

Private global finance and affiliated corporate powers have acquired undemocratic control over our common Earth, over peoples, and governments because the world has given private bankers special power to create money out of thin air by writing 'deposit' in their ledgers and 'loan' in government currencies. 

Bankers have used that power to change laws at every level of government, and internationally, to give them more power.

It's undemocratic.

Everyone needs to talk about this fundamental inequality.

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Leigh wrote:

"rabble.ca is a public, independent, progressive news and information source. In defining itself as "progressive," rabble.ca embraces a pro-human rights, pro-feminist, anti-racist, queer-positive, anti-imperialist and pro-labour stance, and as such encourages discussions which develop and expand progressive thought."- Babble Policy.

I don't see the words 'left-wing' here.  Rebecca West is wrong when she said "this is a left-wing site",

 

True but most progressives are left of center and all the moderators here are leftists. I usually leave the moderators to their own business and try to stay out of commenting about them as such, however this one time I will... As you (should) know possession is 9/10s of the law. As such leftist like M Spector get way more leeway when it comes to stretching the rules for insults and such. That is why he gets warning after warning (and he does) and others (rightfully so in some cases) get banned after only one or two warnings.  He would have to really run amuck, much more than you would, to get banned here. Is it fair, perhaps not, but like most everything else in life it's just the way it is.

 

I just picture everyone here as Muppet characters; M Specter is OscarLaughing.  

 

As for this post a good friend of mine is a City of Chicago firefighter... I'll be seeing him soon and I'll get his perspective on what is going on this week when I meet him. Should be interesting.

Leigh

CBC is reporting (5pm) that Barack Obama and the new French PM say 'some form of growth has to happen', however CBC reports 'austerity was needed to deal with debt'.

According to Randall Wray, in the Modern Money Theory Primer www.neweconomicperspectives.org:

Governments which issue their own fiat currency, as the governments of the EU do collectively through the European Central Bank, as Canada does, as the US and many other states do, have no contraint in issuing currency

In fact the more Euros or Canadian dollars etc. issued by governments, the more the private sector,  including households, and businesses, and the public sector- lower tier governments, benefit.   Jobs are created, important public services and environmentally-protective services are retained.  Austerity is destructive, altogether, particularly in a recession, which is now a depression in some places. Austerity only cuts government services to privatize them, to add to private bankers' already grossly disproportionate profit.

Furthermore, banks themselves have power to create government fiat currency, so their whining with nonsense about a 'crisis' that would occur if some of their outstanding loans defaulted is total nonsense.

There is no 'Eurozone crisis': There is no 'debt crisis'.  The ECB can continue issuing needed currency, in any event. So can Harper, Obama, and other governments creating currency.

That settled,

G8 leaders and everyone else ought to move on to the critical issues of our times:  Reduce climate change, stop NATO and other militarism, introduce a financial transactions tax, democratize banking, remove inequality, etc.

The world has spent enough energy catering to greedy, whining, fraudulent bankers.  Let's move on with positive work to be done.

 

 

Leigh

[edited]

apologies and change of behaviour by M.Spector and moderators, and other babblers who allow unjustice here, is necessary.

On the CBC radio news I heard that G8 leaders were still debating whether stimulus was needed, along with austerity, and couldn't believe that, given "the leaders of 11 international organizations-  including the International Monetary Fund, the World Bank and the World Trade Organization issued a joint statement warning about the social and economic risks of austerity programs"p.5 CCPA Alternative Federal Budget, March 2012.

Spending for social programs,  jobs, and  environmental care,  reducing climate  change and preventing depression,  along  with  other measures are important and necessary.

 

Fidel

Thanks NDPP.

URBAN POLICE STATE ENVIRONMENT: Chicago Militarized for NATO Detailed Report from Chicago

Stephen Lendman wrote:
Restrictions also include an outer perimeter extending 10 - 30 miles around Chicago. All aircraft violating flight restrictions will be intercepted. The advisory states:

"The United States Government may use deadly force against the airborne aircraft, if it is determined that the aircraft poses an imminent security threat."

"Be advised that noncompliance with the published may result in the use of force."

Violators face criminal penalties. For three days, no-fly zone enforcement extends from Lake County, IN to Lake County, IL. It includes Cook and DePage Counties as well as portions of Lake Michigan.

O'Hare and Midway Airports are affected. So are small suburban ones. Around a dozen overall face restrictions. When Obama arrives, he'll be well protected downtown. So will other heads of state and their entourages.

What no NORAD stand-downs for maximum chaos? he he That's right this isn't any funny bizness as per 9/11/01. All of the lead warmongers are in town for 4 o'clock tea and to talk war,  and so there must be security up the wazoo. 

NDPP

Anti Nato Protester Abused by Chicago Police

http://presstv.com/detail/2012/05/20/242171/antinato-protester-abused-by...

"An anti-NATO protester says the Chicago police have abused him and his civil rights after he was arrested in a controversial raid on the activist's house.."

Life in Occupied Chicago - by Stephen Lendman

http://warisacrime.org/content/life-occupied-chicago

"More on a city under siege.."

NDPP

NDPP wrote:

NATO PROTEST COVERAGE AND INFO:

Chicago Cops Start Preemptive Arrests on Eve of NATO Summit

http://chicago.indymedia.org

http://natoprotest.org

http://www.livestream.com/chicagoindymedia

http://justin.tv/radioman911#/w/3106321936/8

Live Fire and EMS Radio Traffic for Chicago's NATO Summit

NDPP

lots of good street action on the livestream link. Some police covering badges, as in TO G20

NDPP

more Chicago live feed:

http://www.ustream.tv/timcast

NDPP

NATO Reality Check: Protesters in Chicago Can Fatally Fracture NATO  - by Michael Skinner

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=30941

"Canadian officials in NATO, formerly perceived as diplomatic, multilateral bridge-builders, are now recognized within NATO as North American badgers who berate their European counterparts for not following lockstep behind the United States. The fractures between the NATO member states are points wehre peace actvists can pressure their respective governments to reject warfare and disassemble the institutions of war including NATO. NATO is mortally susceptible to peace activists prying its interstate fractures open.."

NDPP

The Chicago Indymedia livestream feed is running vets returning their service medals and denunciations of US wars.. (see link above @ #65)

NDPP

'NATO Medium Of Control By One-Percenters' (and vid)

http://presstv.com/detail/2012/05/21/242264/nato-tool-to-bully-governments/

"Public outrage grows during the NATO Summit in Chicago, US over the military alliance's involvment in bloody conflicts, deaths, destructions and immunity to face war crimes, on top of the financial costs it inflicts on member states' tax payers.."

Canada out of NATO! Down with NATO Now!

European Missile Shield Up and Running - NATO (and vid)

http://www.rt.com/news/nato-summit-missile-shield-739/

"The European missile shield is up and running, says NATO Secretary General Fogh Rasmussen, who announced its 'interim' capability' to shoot down incoming missiles. Earlier Russia voiced strong concern over the issue. NATO continues to insist that the shield is not aimed at Russia..."

NDPP

Fresh Anti-NATO Protests to Resume in Chicago (and vid)

http://presstv.com/detail/2012/05/21/242340/fresh-antiwar-demos-to-resum...

"Fresh anti-NATO demonstrations are to be held in the US city of Chicago at 0330 GMT one day after police clashed with protesters, Press TV reports..."

see #65 for live feeds

Leigh

I'm  very sad, and angry, about ongoing NATO aggression, in the US and elsewhere, and ongoing refusal of babblers  (M.Spector and Robo)  to continue babbling away without one word of a disclaimer or apology for Lenin's massacres of civilians.

NDPP

the first part is probably of more importance..

Leigh

[edited, from an initial, tired, angry, 'No.']

Ongoing attacks of civilians demand immediate prioritized attention and remedy.

Beyond that, rabble/babble, sponsors and participants have to be clear in rejecting praise of Lenin's attacks on civilians, because it undermines all the good work for peace and justice that rabble/babble and affiliates do.  The site, sponsors, and participants are seen by the world as hypocrites, so your message isn't taken seriously by the majority of the public.  Because the work of rabble isn't taken seriously then, nor the work of sponsors and their linked groups, which represent to a large degree the advocates for change towards peace and justice in Canada and elsewhere, those efforts are set back. Repeatedly. It's another reason why goals aren't being achieved.

In effect, rabble/babble, its participants, sponsors and affiliates, babbling merrily on without clarifying the distinction between Lenin's words and behaviour, are acquiescing with an effective tool of the financiers and war-mongers- denial of historic war crimes, resulting in marginalization of current movements for change, which is exactly what the current financiers and war-mongers want.

 

 

NDPP

@ Leigh:  with this as with other historical subjects people don't always agree with one about such things. Sometimes there's nothing can be done...

 

Three NATO Activists Charged With Terror Plot After Posting Video of Police Harrasment (and vid)

http://www.opednews.com/articles/2/Three-NATO-Activists-Charg-by-Ralph-L...

"Three activists in Chicago for the NATO Summit protests - Bryan Church, Jarred Chase, Brent Betterly - are being charged with a major terrorist plot and 'material support for terrorism', after they posted a video of police threatening the three with violence during the NATO summit.."

Kucinich: 'NATO Talks A Sham': War in Afghanistan Is Not Ending'

http://www.opednews.com/articles/Kucinich--NATO-Talks-a-Sh-by-Dennis-Kuc...

"Today, NATO leaders are meeting in Chicago to discuss the future of Afghanistan. The talks are being billed as discussions of plans to end the war. The war in Afghanistan is not ending. These talks are simply financing the next phase of the war.."

NorthReport



US-Pakistan tensions deepen as Obama snubs Zardari at Nato summit

Obama expresses frustration with Pakistan over its refusal to open up Nato supply routes in protest over US drone attacks

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/21/us-pakistan-tensions-deepen-...

Fidel

Leigh wrote:

I'm  very sad, and angry, about ongoing NATO aggression, in the US and elsewhere, and ongoing refusal of babblers  (M.Spector and Robo)  to continue babbling away without one word of a disclaimer or apology for Lenin's massacres of civilians.

 

No mention of Black '47, either. And nary a peep about the massacres and ethnic cleansings at Drogheda and Wexford in 1649? Tsk tsk.

Leigh

-if an individual or group is referencing the name of an individual responsible for mass murder, yet also actively promoting that mass murderer's ideas, the distinction between words and behaviour ought to be clearly made.

---

Malalai Joya said in her video linked above that we ought to protest NATO's continuing criminal behaviour and occupations in poor countries.

Dennis Kucinich, in the link above, says, "NATO is a cost-sharing organization that finances aggressive military action. By hiding behind the claim that the organization provides for "common defense,' NATO allows us to wage wars of choice under the guise of international peacekeeping. The most recent example was the unconstitutional war in Libya where NATO, operating under a United Nations mandate to protect civilians, instead backed one side in a civil war and pursued a policy of regime change." and,

"NATO continues to circumvent the authority of the United Nations and to provoke other nations."

Kucinich says NATO was founded as a counterbalance to the Soviet Union, which no longer exists; NATO is an anachronism and should be dismantled.

I agree with these statements. Babblers and groups who continue to praise, or silently accept praise of, one of the mass murderers of the Soviet Union without clearly rejecting that person's behaviour, fall into a trap of justifying NATOs ongoing existence. 

SlumberJack said he often critiqued Soviet mass murderers, and Hitler, and wasn't 'rounded up for questioning here' like i am. Why? Because I also ask that everyone help in critique when Lenin or Hitler is praised, and that those who praise some of the ideas of Lenin clearly reject his mass murdering actions?

Thomas Ponniah said that Social Forum organizers work to ensure those directly affected speak to issues, and I agree, however those directly affected aren't always present when statements needing critique are made.  Malalai Joya, quoting Martin Luther King, said that 'there are times when silence becomes betrayal'.

 

 

Leigh

you're not listening.

whether people self-identify to be social democrats, socialists, communists, anarchists, progressives, Occupy movement activists, or whatever, if they are present when someone or group is praising a mass murderer without stating disagreement with behaviour, they ought to critique unqualified praise and request clarification. 

 

Slumberjack

Yes, I think anyone found supporting the installation of a Leninist style red terror regime here in Canada would have a lot of explaining to do...notwithstanding the fact that the something quite similar to the white terror has been running amuck in and out of the Western controlled hemispheres for many generations, and continues to do so.  Other than that I fail to see any correlations between Canadian style social democrats and Leninism, leaving me somewhat baffled as to what exactly people need to start apologizing for.

ETA:  Also, anyone on a mission to out modern day Leninists and have them apologize would do well to begin their campaign here:

Contact Page

Slumberjack

Well, I still don't understand.  What do any of those affiliations have to do with Leninism...or Stalinism...or Nazism etc.  Is that the same thing as saying all Muslims ought to denounce and critique extreme acts carried out by a fanatic insurgent, as if by inference there is a collective guilt that needs addressing?  How about requiring all Jews everywhere to apologize for and critique Israeli occupation?  How about requiring all progressive organizations comprising a public demostration to collectively apologize to the general Canadian public if someone throws a brick through a window?

Leigh

if anyone is present when fanatic violent acts, occupations, and brick-throwing are praised or occur, those behaviours ought to be critiqued.

[edited; some are]

--

The G8 and NATO, including Harper, need to be critiqued for failing to provide for the human rights of civilians.

Human rights include our rights to social services.

It's interesting that Harper gave over a hundred billion dollars to banks a couple years ago, yet hasn't created sufficient money to support our human rights and a clean environment.

"three of Canada’s biggest banks, Scotiabank, Bank of Montreal and CIBC, received estimated peak support that at some point was equal or greater than the value of the company itself.  That is to say that at some point during the financial crisis, it would have cost less money for the Canadian and U.S. governments to have bought every single share in these companies rather than providing them with support." (www.progressive-economics.ca, MacDonald,April30.)

G8 leaders ought to create money, spend, to support UN General Assembly-led peacekeeping where necessary, rather than aggression, support conflict resolution rather than war-mongering, to support humanitarian aid, at home and elsewhere, for public housing, healthcare, education, water, local food, welfare, full employment, equality, other human rights, green public energy, taxes on carbon emissions, financial transaction taxes, proportional representation, transformed trade, and other laws to care for humans and our common planet.

kropotkin1951

Leigh try to get into this millennium some time soon please.  The crimes of assholes from 50 and 60 years ago are historic. By the way when was the last time you spoke out against King Charles and Marie Antoinette and the Romanov's.  I presume that you go into all the MSM sites and talk about the genocide and ethnic cleansing of FN's and the slave trade every time someone talks about America's founding fathers. [that was sarcasm]

Please post some of your thoughts on the violence of America and NATO in the last decade.  Get with the times and stop beating that worn out Cold War drum.  This is a thread about protests in 2012 against NATO, the military imperialist project that spends over 70% of the world's arms budget. 

Leigh

you aren't listening either and I'm not going to repeat myself.

----

I read at babble once that people could read elsewhere, even at rabble, and comment here even though there's space under each article.

to keep thoughts together,

beyond M.Spector's (and others') errors, in the last comment under the recent article by Seth Klein on 'de/growth', Spector said that if people didn't control or own 'capital', by which I guess s/he means 'means of production', then problems result.

In Canada, we do own the currently-used means of production of money/ fiat currency, the Bank of Canada. The federal government also has a Constitutional right to spend currency directly, without using the Bank of Canada, and with fiat currency it's not like there have to be gold bars in storage anywhere.

Would it cause problems if private banks also have a legal right to create government currency through the (commercial) Bank Act?

If fiat currency can be created by the federal government to meet people's and earth's needs, and if we pressure them to create that money, I guess it shouldn't matter if private banks also have the power to create fiat currency, as long as they don't lobby to stop the federal government from creating money at zero interest or spending directly. Apparently the usual argument of 'inflation' doesn't apply when there is so much unemployment.

The only 'test', to see if it is necessary to advocate for curtailing the power of private banks to create government currency, is to see if banks continue to abuse their power; if banks and their officials continue to talk about a 'requirement' for government cuts, or if banks begin to lobby for financial transactions taxes, separation of finance/insurance/real estate, and publicly support extensive government creation of money in this recession/depression.

 

kropotkin1951

Thx.

I am not sure what that has to do with the ongoing police rioting and repression in Chicago but whatever.

You do know this is a NATO meeting.  You know the imperial army's leaders.

Leigh

NATO has acted, perhaps unwittingly, as the arm of private bankers' - in Libya for example, someone at babble gave evidence that one of the first demands of 'demonstrators' was to privatize Libya's central bank.  That's not the first thing demonstrators usually demand, suggesting those with interests in private banking may have been involved.

NATO has also been most vicious in areas where substantial fossil fuel reserves exist, or where water is limited and therefore a tool of power, or where other valuable resources exist, along with transportation routes for those resources, and where people strongly resist private banker/corporate rule; ie) where the usual corporate media or economic pressure have been unsuccessful in 'convincing' people to accept foreign or banker/corporate occupation.

 

NDPP

NATO In Chicago: Thousands Protest War Criminals Summit

http://revcom.us/a/270/NATO-in-Chicago-thousands-protest-war-criminals-s...

"The summit was indeed a War Criminals Summit. Thousands of people gathered in Chicago, from all over, to protest these war criminals. And on the other side, for weeks leading up to the summit, and then as the meeting got underway, the state's forces of repression kicked into high gear.."

Leigh

the site's Declaration on Women includes important critique, however, again, not all people in religions agree with interpretations of scripture subordinating women, in fact most don't.

i don't have time at present to read all the material in this or other of the site's statements, i'll see a bit more..

Leigh

Their 'Manisfesto' seems to have a lot of interesting information about Marx, about whom I don't know enough to critique, nor even to assess if revcom's presentation is correct [edited to add:or complete; our shelved 'History of Western Civ' text says the Paris Commune shot prisoners too, though not as many as its opposition.  Apparently, noted elsewhere, Marx praised the Paris Commune, and while 'times were different', I think groups today that are talking about the past ought to clarify these issues, rather than ignore them. Shooting prisoners, or abusing them, past or present- like Canada did with Afghan detainees- cannot be swept under the rug.]

In the paragraph on technology and primitive cultures, it is true that technology would change the way those societies functioned, however I'm not sure it's accurate to say human will has nothing to do with social function- for example, in the midst of technological change, Indigenous and other cultures, like local organic food-producing neighbourhoods, seek to retain elements which are particularly important today, in providing healthy, respectful relationships with Earth and humans.

Leigh

The paragraphs on Lenin and Stalin are biased, and ignore the massacres, rapes, tortures, deportations, starvation, attempted genocide, pogroms, and other abuses of the Cheka, secret police, and powers of the Soviet Union.  Evidence is provided at babble, and many other sources, and in the experience of the families of survivors.

It really would be easier to read/ learn about the useful elements of Marx's contribution to thought with those who are clear to critique abusive behaviour.

Slumberjack

Leigh wrote:
I don't think the issue is fundamentally about 'Jihad vs. McCrusade', rather its the inequality of the 1 and 99 percenters.  I don't agree with Jihadists, neither do most Muslims nor anyone else, however that movement is currently a desperate response to occupation by powers imposed by the 1 percent.

By that measure, Leninism might be considered as a desperate response to the 1 percenters of that era.  Reactionaries come in all flavours you know.

Leigh

while the site may have some useful ideas,

I don't think the issue is fundamentally about 'Jihad vs. McCrusade', rather its the inequality of the 1 and 99 percenters.  I don't agree with Jihadists, neither do most Muslims nor anyone else. [edited] However that movement is currently a desperate response to occupation by powers imposed by the 1 percent, murder of innocent civilians cannot be justified or used as a means to an end.

I also don't agree that the 'science of evolution' and 'creation' need to be opposed, though the belief that the planet was formed ten thousand years ago is way off- from carbon dated fossil evidence.  People could believe in a 'creator' and also believe the creator used the science of evolution to create- in fact many, if not most believers do. Indigenous peoples believe in a Creator (see link from Council of Canadians Great Lakes campaign, citing the First Nations of Ontario declaration.)

I'm still looking at other elements at the revcom site..

Leigh

thanks, I've edited that post.

When 'Jihad' or 'McCrusade' or 'Zionism' or 'Nazi-ism', or 'whatever-ism' kills ordinary civilians it is like Lenin and Stalin who murdered and tortured the poorest, the peasants, the 99 percent.

 

kropotkin1951

Leigh wrote:

The paragraphs on Lenin and Stalin are biased, and ignore the massacres, rapes, tortures, deportations, starvation, attempted genocide, pogroms, and other abuses of the Cheka, secret police, and powers of the Soviet Union.  Evidence is provided at babble, and many other sources, and in the experience of the families of survivors.

It really would be easier to read/ learn about the useful elements of Marx's contribution to thought with those who are clear to critique abusive behaviour.

Marx died before the Russian Revolution and the atrocities were committed by Stalin and Lenin.  The anarchists of Marx's era predicted his ideas, in the hands of the wrong people, would lead to a police state. My namesake's large funeral procession marching under the black flag not the red likely set the wheels in motion to start the repression in Kronstad two weeks later.

 

Fidel

Leigh wrote:

thanks, I've edited that post.

When 'Jihad' or 'McCrusade' or 'Zionism' or 'Nazi-ism', or 'whatever-ism' kills ordinary civilians it is like Lenin and Stalin who murdered and tortured the poorest, the peasants, the 99 percent.

 

European fascists were the most efficient killers of the last century. They and their corporate-sponsored military machine were supposed to march into Russia and takeover Asia while slaightering nferior Russians, slavs and non-slavs willy nilly, "Father Stalin" included. Uncle Joe's crime against the European financial oligarchy was that he prepared for war in secret, and most probably violated basic human rights in doing what Nazi German did openly in violating the Versailles treaty. Both used slaves and both in supposed secrecy from the rest of the world. I don't believe the western democracies were unaware of Hitler's crimes early on. They knew. The rounding-up and murdering of leftists, union leaders and then Jews was an open secret early in the war sometimes referred to as western aggression against the Russian revolution part II. 

The Romanovs were not surprised by the October revolution. They'd put down popular people's rebellions at the turn of the century. The writing was on the wall for the Tsar, and Russian elites chose to carry on oppressing Russians and waging insane wars for resource grabs against Nicholas' cousin in Germany all the while. Good riddance. Stalin's show trials have been surpassed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Guantanamo. Historians agree that political purges are the end result of regime changes throughout history. There will always be elites and their hangers on who will insist on going not quietly but with a fight and arrogance right to the last.

Leigh

Lenin started off his tour of duty massacring Ukrainians in Kyiv, then allowed his underlings to slaughter, torture, rape civilians who were perceived to be 'counter-revolutionaries'. Stalin was responsible for the murder by famine of ten to fourteen million people, along with other atrocities.  Soviet KGB continued to terrorize civilians, even after later leaders began to give Ukrainians some cultural rights, like letting Ukrainian language exist.  There are still cultural issues, and the USSR's Chernobyl imposition on Ukraine still has to be made safe.  Sanitation, healthcare, economic control by Russia or Europe are still problems...

Hitler was a genocidal war criminal, killing millions, who usurped desolation of ordinary Germans, (and others), suffering under the Versailles Treaty, which demanded killing financial reparations for the profits of bankers on the backs of the poor.  Just like bankers are demanding of ordinary Europeans and civilians in other countries now.

Leigh

Before, during and after Marx's life in the 1800's, people in Ukraine worked against oppressive occupiers of many stripes. My understanding is that anarchists assassinated members of the Moscow Central Council, unleashing repression by powers of the Soviet Union, which fell for the most part, yet again, on ordinary civilians and peasants.

Ordinary people in Ukraine experienced centuries of oppressive rule, and suffered the brunt of WW1, with more casualties in fact than those of the West.

Lenin and Trotsky basically usurped a popular uprising which had been centuries in the making.  There was a great diversity of parties in Ukraine working together through the Central Rada to effect democratic change, their efforts ruined by the Provisional Russian Government (statement of Ukrainian Central Rada (Council) June 10, 1917, from "The War and Ukrainian Democracy")and again by Leninists. Violent anarchists made things worse.

In eastern Ukraine anarchists fought against Ukrainians who were trying at the same time to oppose the atrocities of western-backed forces, and Lenin's forces, against Ukrainian civilians.  Anarchists helped Lenin win.

Recent anarchist websites I've seen, posted during the G20 events, thankfully were clear to say they did not agree with the behaviour of all anarchists in the past.  Babblers ought to be clear too.

 

Leigh

from the June 10th, 1917 statement:

"Every village, every county, every council, whether departmental or regional which stands for the interests of the Ukrainian people must have the closest possible connection with the Central Rada (Council)...In cities and those places where the Ukrainian population lives intermingled with other national groups, we enjoin our citizens immediately to come to an understanding and agreement with the democracy of those nationalities, and together with them to begin preparing a new, normal way of life."

from Nov.7, 1917;

"To employ all means for the purpose of strengthening and developing the rights of local self-governments, which are the organs of the immediately subordinate administrative governments...

"...freedom of speech, of the press, of religion, of assembly, of association, of strikes, freedom of the person and domicile, right and power to use local language in connection with all establishments..."

from law approved on Jan. 9, 1918 by the Ukrainian Parliament (Centralna Rada),

The U.P.R. from its own receipts would set aside sums for each National Union, wherein:

National minorities of the Ukrainian Republic could set up National Unions each with a National Assembly elected by members of said Unions with the following conditions:

"The Constituent National Assembly is composed of members elected by universal suffrage, equal, direct and secret, with application of the principle of proportional representation for all sexes and creeds. "

In each Union is also a Rada (Council) "which is elected by the National Assembly and responsible to it."

[edited to add: today  where issues of 'nationality' are a problem, this recognition of equality could be useful, and/or representation could be based on provinces, localities, areas of work, common concerns, 'occupy' gatherings...]

Slumberjack

Leigh wrote:
Recent anarchist websites I've seen, posted during the G20 events, thankfully were clear to say they did not agree with the behaviour of all anarchists in the past.  Babblers ought to be clear too. 

I didn't think we're striving here toward pure anarchist thought, to the extent that we need to draw up our denouncements lest people become confused or fearful of where we're going with it.  Ditto for Bolshevism.  Perhaps a reading of the biography of Nestor Makhno might help to clarify the behavior of some anarchist societies and their circumstances.

Pages

Topic locked