Rally for Democracy in Hong Kong

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ilha formosa

Quotes from NYT op-ed piece 'Taking back Hong Kong's future" by student leader Joshua Wong:

Quote:
'Earlier generations, many of whom came here from mainland China, wanted one thing: a stable life...The people of my generation want more....we want what everybody else in an advanced society seems to have: a say in our future.'

'If there is anything positive about the central government’s recent decision on universal suffrage, it’s that we now know where we stand.'

'Some people say that given the government’s firm stance ...our demands are impossible to achieve. But I believe activism is about making the impossible possible. Hong Kong’s ruling class will eventually lose the hearts and minds of the people, and even the ability to govern, because they have lost a generation of youth.'

'The protest movement may not ultimately bear fruit. But, if nothing else, it has delivered hope.'

'I would like to remind every member of the ruling class in Hong Kong: Today you are depriving us of our future, but the day will come when we decide your future. No matter what happens to the protest movement, we will reclaim the democracy that belongs to us, because time is on our side.'

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/30/opinion/joshua-wong-taking-back-hong-k...

ilha formosa
ilha formosa

The standoff continues as temperatures drop. A leading anti-occupier says this is the second time Hong Kong has been occupied, the first being during WW2...by Japanese soldiers. Speculation that the police are now training for a mass clearance to take place after the APEC conference in Beijing. Rumours they are training with a "pepper fog machine."
(article with minimal English: http://www.passiontimes.hk/article/11-02-2014/19489)

image from: http://hk.apple.appledaily.com/realtime/news/20141102/53087730

ilha formosa

A conflagration occurred between police and protesters on Guy Fawkes Night.

Lawyer Gladys Li gives a breakdown of the HK gov't selection committee: This Is How Thoroughly Rotten and Corrupt Hong Kong's Government Is

Hong Kong has a tycoon problem: ' "Competition is really not free in Hong Kong -- there is a lack of a [level] playing field.”...the central government can exert influence on Hong Kong through the tycoons, because they all have multi-billion dollar investments in China to protect...'

Generational and local identity politics also playing a role...as elsewere.

 

ilha formosa

How Might Hong Kong’s Pro-Democracy Protests End?

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“If students in Beijing in 1989 could have left at the last minute, there would have been no excuse for a violent crackdown then,”  [liberal Chinese law professor Zhang Qianfan] wrote. In Zhang’s view, the students in Hong Kong reached their aims just by going out, expressing their views, and occupying roads for a week or so. Continuing the occupation risks turning it into “simply illegal acts,” he warned.

...

“We had a dialogue with the government but it had no real content. Each side just repeated their talking points—there was no deeper discussion,” [a protester] said...The Hong Kong government is in an “awkward” position, because it has no real power. “They just listen to the central government.”

...

“This is not only a dilemma for the demonstrators, but also the government,” To said. “The two objectives are contradictory: you can solve it by peaceful means if you back down, or you can use violent means to disperse the crowds. I can’t see any chance that the people will go away otherwise. I think this could carry on for months.”

 “We’ve been coming to the streets for over a decade,” [a 16-yr-old protester] said, referring to the regular marches and protest events held in Hong Kong throughout any given year...Wu, like many others, has adjusted to life as a long-term occupier. He volunteers at one of the supply tents in Mong Kok, the more working-class of the two main protest zones, refilling water bottles and handing out food to activists. If there was a violent clearance, he admitted that “yes, we’d leave.” Then added: “But we’ll come right back.”

While initial demands by the students groups were unyielding, it’s possible that at this point, a sufficiently large proportion of protesters may accept a second-best option: promises by the government for a timetable to bring greater democracy to the nomination process.

...
Another possibility, of course, is if Xi Jinping steps in to resolve the crisis himself directly...In this optimistic scenario, Xi Jinping and the top communist leadership could then use this as a cover to retract the original decision by the National People’s Congress Standing Committee, which is headed by Zhang Dejiang, an ally of Xi’s political opponent Jiang Zemin, a former leader of the Chinese regime.

Despite Xi Jinping’s sweeping anticorruption campaign and purge of powerful opponents, including Zhou Yongkang, the former security czar, and Xu Caihou, formerly the second most powerful officer in the military, he has not still not fully consolidated power over all parts of the Party and government apparatus.

This line of analysis has appeared in Hong Kong and overseas political journals, and appears to be accepted knowledge among the politically aware in Hong Kong. Some of Jiang Zemin’s holdouts, including Zhang Dejiang, are still able to pursue policies detrimental to Xi’s interests. Leung Chun-ying, the chief executive, is known to have ties to the broad political network associated with Jiang Zemin.

Xi Jinping’s own messaging on Hong Kong has not been as hardline as the Zhang camp. Li Keqiang, his premier, was believed to be communicating Xi’s views last month when Li said “the people of Hong Kong have the wisdom” to resolve the crisis.

After retracting and amending the original National People’s Congress decision, Xi could conceivably present another interpretation, not as absolute, of how candidates for the position of chief executive could be nominated. He could then sack the widely-loathed chief executive Leung Chun-ying, as a token to the protesters, for Leung’s unseemly business dealings that came to light in early October.

The result would surely still include a level of control and veto of candidates by Beijing, but the conciliatory gestures may be enough to defuse the crisis without bloodshed. This scenario, which right now seems rather far off, would of course require Hong Kong’s protesters to stay right where they are—out on the streets.

NDPP

'Occupy Central's' Dirty Money , Dirtier Leaders  - by Tony Cartalucci

http://journal-neo.org/2014/11/07/occupy-central-s-dirty-money-dirtier-l...

 

The Soft Power of Hong Kong Protesters  -  by Wei Ling Chua

http://dissidentvoice.org/2014/11/the-soft-power-of-hong-kong-protesters/

"...What China can learn  from the "Free' world about protest management..."

 

ilha formosa

Not sure about Cartalucci, I would like to see an interview with him.

Quote:
The problem is that as nearly as can be told, there is no such person as Tony Cartalucci. And what “Cartalucci” appears to have done is to have created a chain of biased or bogus online stories that travel in a circle from Bangkok to Moscow to Beijing to Hong Kong in an effort to discredit the Occupy Central movement.

A shadowy “researcher” recycles doubtful claims about HK’s Occupy Central onto the world stage

More questions about media coverage on this event:

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We are a group of Hong Kong citizens who are supporting the ongoing protests for democracy. We deeply regret that the BBC’s report on Oct 21, titled ‘Hong Kong protests: Activists share secrets at Oslo Freedom Forum’ is full of inaccuracies and slanted reporting. Although minor adjustments to the report have been made since its more blatant errors came under criticism, we believe that the report as a whole lacks objectivity and accuracy we would expect from responsible journalism. Without having interviewed a single Hong Kong person, the report alleges that the current Hong Kong protests are closely related to 1) the Oslo Freedom Forum and 2) Tiananmen Square protester Jianli Yang.

ilha formosa

swallow wrote:

"Washington has decided to unleash havoc against Beijing" -- well, maybe, but it's the people on the streets of Hong Kong who are doing this. They are not mindless zombie puppets of the evil empire. These sort of posts are disturbing, I think, in denying that people protesting have any agency fo their own. Hong Kong's umbrellas a re made in Hong Kong. 

ilha formosa

"Images of “pro-democracy” protesters in Hong Kong ignored by the Western media"

-- clearly showing how the youth are indeed spoiled, decadent and inconsiderate of society at large.

http://dissidentvoice.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/HK.jpg

from: The Soft Power of Hong Kong Protesters  -  by Wei Ling Chua

 

NDPP

'Pro-Democracy Protests' in Hong Kong  -  by Andre Vltchek

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/11/07/pro-democracy-protests-in-hong-kong/

"The protesters have an alarmingly skewed view of 'democracy'. Western propaganda has penetrated deeply. Spitefully, they regard Venezuela, Bolivia and Ecuador as 'dictatorships'.

The problem is , that the movement is degnerating into a Beijing bashing mission, happily supported by both Western and local mass media.

Taiwan may have a leg in..."

ilha formosa

The author Vltchek says the protesters in Hong Kong are products of western imperialism with no deep understanding of the world.

There might be some truth in this. Hong Kong is an east-west hybrid, born from opium-pushing colonists and a weak empire that failed to modernize China the way the Meiji did in Japan. China itself would not have made Hong Kong what it is; it grew with the energy of southern Chinese business acumen and avarice, sheltered by and working in conjunction with western imperialism. As for the lack of depth of worldly understanding among the youth, it may be due to an education system largely based on rote learning, which is the dominant educational model in Chinese-speaking societies. These protests would truly be a waste if the youth involved in them are not more awakened to the world beyond China, and stimulated to deeply consider more perspectives.

However I would not say Vltchek knows more than these youth about the ways in which China is impinging upon Hong Kong. Protesters are not blind to the PRC’s progress, and Vltchek misses the significance of them largely calling for the resignation of CY Leung not Xi Jinping. But there are real grievances, as Vltchek acknowledges and has been touched upon above in this thread.

ilha formosa

NDPP wrote:
Dear Children of Hong Kong  -  by Anonymous

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.ca/2014/10/what-to-make-of-current-situati...

"Children of Hong Kong, what choices are you leaving for Beijing?"

from the above:

Quote:
...the pan democrats must reconsider their strategy: Instead of deliberately putting down both the local [HK] and Central [Beijing] Government (often very unfairly) to argue (actually establish the myth) that only a democratically government can govern Hong Kong, they should think about how to build up mutual trust...I just do not see how one without the trust of the central government can help Hong Kong...
...
...Beijing will not bend --- as usual it does not, particularly if it suspects foreign governments are behind. Also, bending means not only a loss of face (or legitimacy), authority towards other local governments (most anti-corruption work is directed at local officials). Also, submission could mean endless more demands. Finally, Beijing suspects this is a crucial step of HK going “independent” – as many in the legal profession and foreigners try to interpret “high degree of autonomy” to mean. If it bends, there will be a widespread riots inside China protesting this and the nation will lose face...

Points of agreement/disagreement: Yes, a foundation of mutual trust (and I would add respect) between HK and the mainland is needed. There’s still a gap here. Some background on recent tensions building up to the current events: Early 2012 Hong Kong protests (wikipedia again) ; Beijing's hard line the real cause of the protests ; Hong Kong Backs Down on 'Patriotism' Classes ; Hong Kong’s Wealth Gap Gets Larger ; White paper on Hong Kong

And yes, it must be kept in mind, keeping China intact is a paramount priority for Beijing. Just look at Chinese history. But Beijing will have to learn how to bend, otherwise it will break.

About claims of foreign interests trying to weaken China through the HK democracy movement: What made the demonstrations swell were the use of tear gas, pepper spray and triad goons.

ilha formosa

Quote:
Beijing in no hurry to clear Occupy sites

While Beijing was initially worried that the protests in Hong Kong would trigger a revolution in the mainland, state leaders were relieved to find that the prevailing opinion among mainlanders is against the Occupy campaign. That is one of the reasons why Beijing is in no rush to force clearing operations.

Despite the Occupy protests, central government policies in favor of Hong Kong continue...However, the sources said, there will no longer be “huge gifts” for the city in future, and the central government will not limit the growth of any mainland cities in favor of grooming Hong Kong to assume a bigger role.

ilha formosa

Taiwan fans at a soccer match vs. home team HK. External forces supporting Occupy.

https://www.facebook.com/KZbingsutt?fref=photo

"Hugging freedom tightly in the wind and rain, belief in self can change the future."

Calling for greater democracy cannot be logically equated to calling for revolution, chaos, instability or the weakening of China.

 

ilha formosa

Quote:

The largest cyber attack in history has been carried out against independent media sites in Hong Kong over the past few months, according to the company protecting them, increasing in their intensity each time pro-democracy activists announced new activities or developments.

The distributed denial of service (DDoS) attacks have been carried out against independent news site Apple Daily and PopVote, which organised mock chief executive elections for Hong Kong. Now the content delivery network Cloudflare, which protects Apple Daily and PopVote, says the DDoS attacks have been unprecedented in scale, pounding the sites with junk traffic at a remarkable 500 gigabits per second.

The Largest Cyber Attack In History Has Been Hitting Hong Kong Sites

ilha formosa

The protest is nearing its 2-month mark.

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...in the short to medium term, "we will see greater involvement by the mainland security and intelligence apparatus than before the Occupy exercise", adding: "A permanent expansion of these departments' activities can be anticipated in Hong Kong." He thinks the People's Liberation Army garrison might in future include elements of the People's Armed Police and the Hong Kong Police leadership might spend more time training on the mainland. [related to the image posted above]

While observing the legal system had operated well during the protests, he thought it "may not be viewed favourably for this and may come under renewed pressure". As for education and media organisations, they were perceived to have contributed to the protests, and academics may come under pressure along with the media.

Ominous warnings over damage caused to protest-hit Hong Kong

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/hong-kong-protests-student-leaders-arrested... So sorry to see this. I was in Hong Kong for work last week and was at the site. Very peaceful and organized.

ilha formosa

According to the reddit feed, looks like most action is in gritty Mongkok, while the site at Admiralty (by the Legislative Council buildings) is almost empty except for the tent village. Large crowds came out to meet the police in Mongkok. It appears that protesters know how to distribute themselves. Some police have spiffy new all-dark-blue uniforms…what are they, paramilitary? The new HK version of the mainland's PAP?

View image on Twitter

Two prominent student leaders have been arrested.

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Nov 25 - “The protests have been losing steam in the past few days, but because of the police clearance, more people have come out today...The government has ceded no ground, offered no concession to us. We will not retreat.” The confrontations rumbled late into the night, with crowds behind improvised barricades facing lines of police officers who used nozzles to disperse pepper spray. But the protesters remained defiant, taunting and berating the officers....In recent weeks, the loosely organized protest movement has become polarized between moderates, mostly student leaders and older politicians, and more zealous activists. Mong Kok has seen some of the worst clashes of the protests, which have generally been nonviolent. An attempt by the police to clear the site on Oct. 17 ended in humiliation when thousands of protesters surged in and forced the officers to withdraw.

Hong Kong Police Remove Protesters’ Camp After a Night of Chaotic Clashes

 

ilha formosa

Quote:
“If there is enough of a public backlash against the police actions last night, we might be able to come back,” said Anthony Lam, a computer technician who was packing up a tent. “Only if there is enough public anger will there be enough people here to reoccupy somewhere.” (from above article)

View image on Twitter

19 yr old reads in front of police, says she doesn't want to "lose #mongkok " #occupyhk #OccupyCentral #hk #umhk

12:21 AM - 27 Nov 2014

 

ilha formosa

The pepper spray cops are using in Hong Kong likely came from a town close to… Ferguson

Pepper spray nozzle - Hong Kong police in Mong Kok on Nov. 25 (AP Photo/Kin Cheung)

 

ilha formosa

Quote:
Nov. 27- The HK Federation of Students says it may now target government buildings as a means of stepping up action against the government, as it continues to push for democratic political reform here which meets international standards.

http://m.rthk.hk/news/20141127/1056703.htm

Quote:
...Many [protesters] said they could always occupy new streets. "If police also clear Nathan Road tomorrow, I'll see where people are occupying next and join them," said Maddie, a 60-year-old mother of three. She said she has been coming to Mong Kok almost every day since late September. "But no matter what, I'm not going to back down. I'm fighting for the future of my granddaughter and the next generation.”...

...those advocating for escalation, such as the storming of Hong Kong's legislature building by protesters on Nov. 18, are growing impatient with what they consider passive and ineffective tactics by organizers based in the financial district of Admiralty, who focus on public outreach and run the Admiralty protest site so that at times it feels like a festive village. Major disputes broke out last week as netizens and demonstrators in Mong Kok attempted to remove Admiralty-based organizers from power, who they believed are an obstacle to their plans to escalate. Jeffrey Lam, a pro-business legislator here, stated on Nov. 19 that protesters had "lost control.”...

...In response to dwindling public support, protest leaders are looking for a new direction for the movement, but are divided about what direction to go…Hong Kong's protest movement, it seems, is starting to divide, as different groups pursue their own strategies. Ironically, that is exactly the spirit of democracy that the protesters are pursuing.

">http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/11/25/hong_kongs_house_divide...

ilha formosa

Battle currently on to defend the main protest site in Admiralty, around the government buildings, site of the protester encampment of over 2000 tents. 

Quote:
Nov. 30- An exiled mainland dissident, Wang Dan, has said he was worried that there will be bloodshed at Sunday evening's Occupy rally.He said if the SAR government cracked down on the protesters, he would join hands with international human rights groups and demand the Chief Executive C.Y. Leung to be tried in international court. Mr Wang was a student leader during the 1989 pro-democracy movement in Beijing. He is currently living in Taiwan.
">http://rthk.hk/rthk/news/englishnews/20141130/news_20141130_56_1057487.h...

RDP

Thank you for supporting those defending that bastion of capitalism named Hong Kong from those fighting the evil socialistic China.

RDP

Thank you for supporting those defending that bastion of capitalism named Hong Kong from those fighting for the evil socialistic China.

ilha formosa

RDP wrote:

Thank you for supporting those defending that bastion of capitalism named Hong Kong from those fighting for the evil socialistic China.

Read all my opinions posted above before you jump to simple-brained conclusions about my position. Then we might have a discussion instead of a flame exchange.

China is not a monolith.

swallow swallow's picture

RDP wrote:

Thank you for supporting those defending that bastion of capitalism named Hong Kong from those fighting for the evil socialistic China.

China is completely capitalist. Haven't you heard that government policy says "To get rich is glorious"? 

Interesting to see that Hong Kong's umbrellas were not made in the USA, but the pepper spray because used against protesters was. 

ilha formosa

And the protesters are the last ones defending the capitalist-dominated "functional constituencies" and CY Leung. RDP obviously hasn't read much on this topic. Why has there been so much talk about "princelings" in socialistic China?

Unionist

ihla formosa, thank you so much for your ongoing reporting about these brave struggles.

And everyone - please ignore a certain troll. Not worth engaging.

 

ilha formosa

And thank you!

ilha formosa

Dec. 1, 18:46 HK time, about half an hour ago. In Admiralty, the main protest camp by gov't buildings.

https://www.facebook.com/inmediahk/photos/a.321611837875861.67317.200954...

 

ilha formosa

Stories on last night's action.

Hong Kong Police Turn Back Siege on Government (NYT)

Police spraying pepper spray from back-mounted tanks with hose attached.

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(Guardian) Hong Kong: clashes escalate between pro-democracy protesters and police Injuries on both sides as police force demonstrators to abandon barricaded position in one of city’s main thoroughfares

The pepper solution sprayed by police in recent days appears to be stronger than standard pepper spray or even teargas, with a photographer saying he was temporarily blinded by it. Injured protesters with red rashes were washed down with bottled water. One of those giving first aid, a 23-year-old nurse who gave his name as Vincent L, said the spray was six times stronger than teargas and that some of the components were found in pesticide.

ilha formosa

Avaaz petition: We ask UNHRC to Launch an Enquiry into HK Police & Govt Human Rights Abuses

A litany of reasons for an enquiry listed at the link.

ilha formosa

Quote:
...the fact that the “one country, two systems” formula has been almost completely discredited by events in Hong Kong is part of the context.

The Guardian view on the continuing protests in Hong Kong

Pan-democrats, key protest figures break ranks over surrender

The fracturing of protester unity progresses as the uniforms continue to move forcefully on the main encampment. Authorities would like this to be the end of a movement, others hope it's only the end of a phase.

Expect a drawn-out, low-key persecution of protest leaders and key followers. Many will probably leave Hong Kong, especially the young ones with the wherewithal to study overseas. I bet some will easily get scholarships, which China will propagandize by accusing student leaders as doing this all for personal gain.

Other changes in Hong Kong will occur as well. For example, I'm sure Beijing has already discussed changing the side of the road they drive on.

The loss of the international-ness of Hong Kong would be a loss for the world, and for China. I am all in favour of a stable, strong, peaceful, prosperous, progressive and proud (though not arrogant) China. I think it will have to accommodate calls for democracy, gradually but genuinely, to get there. A major factor bogging this process down is the constant threat of foreign interference, which gives elites in China an excuse - if not a reason - for authoritarianism.

RDP

China is capitalist?  China is a communist country that has loosened restrictions somewhat within the last 20 years and have reaped benefit.  Calling China capitalistic is simply far from the truth.  One stoke of the great leader's pen could end this in a heartbeat.

RDP

Hong Kong is/was (before the takeover) most definitely a free and capitalistic society.  This is what they are trying to preserve.  I wish them luck.

RDP

"Interesting to see that Hong Kong's umbrellas were not made in the USA, but the pepper spray because used against protesters was."  China bashes Hong Kong and you bash the US.  Makes tons of sense.

ilha formosa

Bash plutocracy.

Quote:
Hong Kong students overwhelmingly see the mainland as a foreign dictatorship rather than a motherland, and see Hong Kong as being progressively swallowed up by its authoritarian mainland masters. This is totally different from what Hong Kong and Beijing pundits envisioned 20 years ago; they assumed young people would become more Chinese. This was not even fully imaginable 20 months ago. A generation has been radicalised. Will this young generation be running a new, more democratic and open Hong Kong in future decades? Or will it be doomed to suffer an ever more plutocratic and authoritarian Hong Kong?

Politicians and police have done a thorough job of alienating Hong Kong youth

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The struggle has been amplified by increasing economic polarization, rising prices and falling wages, and fears that locals’ dreams of a better future will be foreclosed by plutocrats with Communist Party connections. This struggle should not feel unfamiliar to Americans forced again last month to choose between candidates beholden to corporate special interests, family dynasties and party politics.

Like Americans, many mainland Chinese – and not only those visiting Hong Kong – complain every day about the revolving door between corporate and political positions, about the illicit accumulation of wealth by party “princelings,” and about systemic corruption and surveillance states. But unlike Americans, people here are unable to access the salve of the ballot box.

Umbrella Politics: What American Movements Can Learn From the Hong Kong Protests


ilha formosa

RDP wrote:
China is capitalist?  China is a communist country that has loosened restrictions somewhat within the last 20 years and have reaped benefit.  Calling China capitalistic is simply far from the truth. One stoke of the great leader's pen could end this in a heartbeat.

You are conflating capitalism with democracy. Look no further than the west to see how capitalism does not equal democracy. A leader in China trying to end capitalistic enterprises would run into heavy resistance. Commercial rights are far ahead of political rights in China, which is what you might expect in a country that has ratified the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (ICESCR) but not the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR). The "loosened restrictions somewhat" has progressed a bit beyond being allowed to sell your surplus vegetables: List of Chinese by Net Worth, China Rich List, 2014 Forbes Billionaires List: Growing China's 10 Richest

Juxtapose the above list of articles with: Diverse reasons behind growth in China’s ‘mass incidents’ - and you start to see how China is communist only in name.

Quote:
Hong Kong is/was (before the takeover) most definitely a free and capitalistic society.  This is what they are trying to preserve.  I wish them luck.

You still haven't read much on the topic. The protest is about true universal suffrage. Let the people nominate Chief Executive candidates. Then, one person one vote, not industry-dominated functional constituencies. Sure, colonial and current day HK was/is free - for tycoons, and capital. But not from want, and stark inequality.

Cage homes 'worse than living on street'

ilha formosa

Persistence. The popular shopping area, Mong Kok, cleared out of protesters last week, now sees random, massive surges of "shoppers." In central HK, students are going on 'hunger strikes' - but I'm not sure how worthy of this term these activities are. Apparently enough (100+ hrs) to require electrolytes and a wheelchair for striking 18-year old student leader Joshua Wong.

Photo from central HK today:

Quote:
Today several farmers are working on the Admiralty farm (next to Lennon Wall). They are inviting people to participate as well as updating foreigners that pass by on the movement. Buckets of food waste accumulated by the protesters at LegCo are now fertilising the soil. (Sign: "I want true universal suffrage.")

/u/studio_leung

RDP

"You still haven't read much on the topic. The protest is about true universal suffrage. Let the people nominate Chief Executive candidates. Then, one person one vote, not industry-dominated functional constituencies. Sure, colonial and current day HK was/is free - for tycoons, and capital. But not from want, and stark inequality."

"Industry-dominated functional constituencies"  Let me fix this for you.  Great-leader dominated functional constituecies.

Hong Kong was the freest region in Asia since Mao took over China.  The Brits mainly left Hong Kong alone.  Hong Kong thrived.  The rich got rich and the poor were multi-times better off than the poor in China.  China self destructed under Communistic rule.  Starvation and mass governmental murder were the norm in China.  China loosened restrictions and degrees of voluntary exchange (free market) broke out.  Chinese citizens benefited but China is still a command economy.

One person, one vote doesn't matter much in a command economy. "you are free to vote but in the end we the great leaders are going to do what we think is best".   No matter how smart the great leader, he/she isn't as smart as the result of a billion citizens all pursuing their own interests.

There is much more "want" in China than Hong Kong.  Socialism produces more "want" than free market societies.  All societies have "want".   Those with "want" in Canada have a roof over their head and food in their bellies.  

All I need to do is point to mass graves to prove my point.  There aren't any in free societies.

 

 

ilha formosa

The topic I referred to above was the demands of the current protests in Hong Kong.

ilha formosa

RDP wrote:
All I need to do is point to mass graves to prove my point.  There aren't any in free societies.

First Nations history should make us question what it means to be Canadian

RDP

Let's keep it to the last 100 years.  And please, show me the mass graves of First Nations peoples.

ilha formosa
ilha formosa

Taiwan soundly rejects KMT's approach to China relations in local level elections.

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...former Hong Kong League of Social Democrats chairman Andrew To (陶君行), who was in Taiwan as an election observer, said Saturday’s event gave Hong Kong great encouragement. “The ‘China factor’ effect is substantial for both Taiwan and Hong Kong. Facing the erosion of freedom, Hong Kongers can only resort to civil disobedience, but in Taiwan, you have elections. If Taiwan can, why can’t Hong Kong?” he said.

Sou Ka-hou (蘇嘉豪), convener of Macau Conscience, an activist organization in the territory, said that the elections were a victory for Taiwan’s democracy movement, which has entered a stage of consolidation and deepening.

Activists from HK, Macau eye results

Taiwan's election results inspiring to Hongkongers: democracy activist

The CCP has to start taking baby steps toward genuine democracy, and Hong Kong is the logical place to start. Even a small measure would help. Bend now, or break later.

RDP

Suffering is so much better than mass death.  I am sure you would agree.

ilha formosa
ilha formosa

There have been mass deaths, without even the minimal dignity of mass graves, and plenty have suffered in the last 100 years.

Getting back to the topic of this thread, particularly the point of whether China today is communist or capitalist...First, to clarify, when I use the term communist with a small ‘c,’ I refer to pure theoretical communism: collectivized means of production for the benefit all; from each according to ability to each according to need. This is an ideal vision.

Ideals serve certain purposes, but attempts to implement them in the real world invariably fall short of matching their conceptual purity. Case in point: communism in Communist China. A term often used for the system now in operation there is “authoritarian capitalism.” While the state is still heavily involved, it is not small ‘c’ communism.
 

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The return of Authoritarian Capitalists (NYT)
Today's global liberal democratic order faces a significant challenge from the rise of nondemocratic great powers - the West's old Cold War rivals, China and Russia, now operating under "authoritarian capitalist" rather than Communist regimes.

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The New Authoritarian Capitalism: Changing development paradigms: after liberalism, after politics? (Swedish Inst. of Intl. Affairs)
...the social clashes growing from contemporary capitalist development are not only visible in authoritarian-capitalist China or in relation to development in the global peripheries...

Quote:
The Return of Authoritarian Great Powers (Foreign Affairs)
The second, and more significant, challenge emanates from the rise of nondemocratic great powers: the West's old Cold War rivals China and Russia, now operating under authoritarian capitalist, rather than communist, regimes. Authoritarian capitalist great powers played a leading role in the international system up until 1945. They have been absent since then. But today, they seem poised for a comeback.

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The Mother of All Experiments in Authoritarian Capitalism Is About to Begin (Foreign Policy Magazine)
If Xi and Li believe that they can manage a simultaneous economic loosening and political tightening, then we’re about to see the Mother of All Experiments in Authoritarian Capitalism going forward. And as a political economy watcher, all I can say is, pass the popcorn.

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Western Vs. Authoritarian Capitalism (The Diplomat)
During the Cold War, the competition was between capitalism and communism. China and Russia have adopted capitalism in one form or another. They are also participants in the global economic system. The new argument is about which side does capitalism better: liberal-democratic versus authoritarian states.

It is a question worth asking if recent performance is anything to go by. The IMF recently released a study showing that economic growth in ‘capitalist’ authoritarian countries averaged 6.28 per cent over the past 15 years, while liberal democracies only averaged 2.62 per cent. Over the past decade, the Chinese economy has been growing at an average of 10 per cent in real terms each year. Since defaulting on its sovereign debt in 1998, Russia has grown seven per cent in real terms each year. Importantly, over the past 10 years, both countries have become more authoritarian rather than less.

Granted, authoritarian capitalism does not allow for the same level of freedom that western capitalism does. But I would contend western plutocrats would not complain if the economies they dominate were more like those of China and Russia.

 

 

RDP

I don't want to hijack your thread. So, i keep my posts short. But are you kidding?  Again, I am sure you would agree.  Cultural genocide is so much better than genocide.

RDP

Really?  You don't think that the purposeful murder of a large group is worse than governmental policies that may lead to lower life expectancy, higher suicide, murder (by who), missing aboriginal women, lower health, etc.  What was aboriginal life expectancy, suicide, murder, lower health etc. before the Europeans arrived?  You understand that many aboriginals thrive in our society.

I think you are sugar-coating genocide.  A much harder endeavour I imagine.

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