The Revolution Betrayed? Is Cuba Going to Join the World Economic System?

111 posts / 0 new
Last post
NDPP
The Revolution Betrayed? Is Cuba Going to Join the World Economic System?

The Revolution Betrayed? Is Cuba Going to Join the World Economic System?

http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2010/09/11/is-cuba-going-to-join-the...

"It now seems that with a string of former 'socialist' states, succumbing to the 'market economy' one of the last remnants of the socialist dream - Cuba - is to go the same way.."

Fidel

Ya they'll prolly be about as capitalist as Sweden is.

And it looks like China will have socialized health care before the Americans ever do.

Viva la revolucion!

Sven Sven's picture

[url=Cuba">http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/09/13/cuba.economy/index.html?hpt... announced on Monday[/url]:

Quote:

...it would lay off "at least" half a million state workers over the next six months and simultaneously allow more jobs to be created in the private sector as the socialist economy struggles to get back on its feet.  The plan announced in state media confirms that President Raul Castro is following through on his pledge to shed some one million state jobs, a full fifth of the official workforce -- but in a shorter timeframe than initially anticipated.  "Our state cannot and should not continue maintaining companies, productive entities and services with inflated payrolls and losses that damage our economy and result counterproductive, create bad habits and distort workers' conduct," the CTC, Cuba's official labor union, said in newspapers.

[SNIP]

The more they produce, the more they earn.

What a concept!!

George Victor

Sven wrote:

[url=Cuba">http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/09/13/cuba.economy/index.html?hpt... announced on Monday[/url]:

Quote:

...it would lay off "at least" half a million state workers over the next six months and simultaneously allow more jobs to be created in the private sector as the socialist economy struggles to get back on its feet.  The plan announced in state media confirms that President Raul Castro is following through on his pledge to shed some one million state jobs, a full fifth of the official workforce -- but in a shorter timeframe than initially anticipated.  "Our state cannot and should not continue maintaining companies, productive entities and services with inflated payrolls and losses that damage our economy and result counterproductive, create bad habits and distort workers' conduct," the CTC, Cuba's official labor union, said in newspapers.

[SNIP]

The more they produce, the more they earn.

What a concept!!

 

Yes, you can see a sick variation on the theme at work on Wall Street, where they have produced a near ciollapse of international banking, and still threaten to leave an economic canyon that will take moer than a decade to pave over...if we're lucky.

Fidel

And the USA has become the USSA. How times have changed.

Doug

 

The Cuban labour federation said more than a million workers would lose their jobs - half of them by March next year.

Those laid off will be encouraged to become self-employed or join new private enterprises, on which some of the current restrictions will be eased.

President Raul Castro outlined some of the changes in a speech in August, saying the state's role in the economy had to be reduced.

 

"We have to end forever the notion that Cuba is the only country in the world where you can live without working," he said.

I think they must have hired Mike Harris as a consultant. Tongue out

 

 

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

My isp is blocking Granma in English.

It looks like the recent interview printed in The Atlantic misquotes the retired President to the point that they attribute the opposite meaning to what Fidel Castro stated in the interview. Gosh! I'm so surprised. Imagine that! US media not being COMPLETELY truthful in relation to reporting on or about Cuba.

Fidel

Thanks N.B. I knew not to trust anything the jackals write about Cuba. We need socialism on one planet if we're going to make it of this century alive.

Viva la revolucion!

NDPP

Whether or not you belive that Fidel was just joking or was misinterpreted, clearly changes are happening and repositioning going on. A million Cuban workers being 'downsized' is not an insignificant development however much you may deny the obvious. And Castro invited the Atlantic to interview him. He apparently spoke of other things as well..

Fidel Castro Accuses Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Antisemitism

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/08/fidel-castro-criticises-mahm...

"Former Cuba leader criticises Iranian president for denying the Holocaust and calls for end to slander of Jews..

I don't think anyone has been slandered more than the Jews. I would say much more than the Muslims. They have been slandered for everything. No one blames the Muslims for anything.."

Bizarre statements to make at this time given the recent Ground Zero Mosque /Koran burning fiasco, never mind the Zionist claims that Ahmadinejad threatens the very survival of Israel. Sorry, something's clearly up...

Sven Sven's picture

George Victor wrote:

Yes, you can see a sick variation on the theme at work on Wall Street, where they have produced a near ciollapse of international banking, and still threaten to leave an economic canyon that will take moer than a decade to pave over...if we're lucky.

What does Wall Street have to do with Cuba "downsizing" a million jobs in Cuba?

What Cuba is doing is a particularly stunning admission of the failure of the Cuban system.

In the words of our Fidel: Viva la revolucion!

Sven Sven's picture

N.Beltov wrote:

It looks like the recent interview printed in The Atlantic misquotes the retired President to the point that they attribute the opposite meaning to what Fidel Castro stated in the interview. 

He was only "misquoted" in an Orwellian way.  According to Fidel, the quote of his ("The Cuban model doesn't even work for us anymore") was accurate -- but that quote was, instead, "misinterpreted," according to the organs of the Cuban government.

Whatever post-quote statements may have been issued to "correct" the "misinterpretation" of the accurately quoted words, when a country the size of Cuba is "downsizing" one million jobs, actions are more powerful than words.

Sven Sven's picture

Fidel wrote:

The reason Cuba is making these moves, I believe, is not because socialism doesn't work. It's because Cuba is isolated and embargoed by its natural trade partner to the North.

Yeah.  Everything would be lollipops and candy canes in Cuba if only Cuba had strong economic ties to, in the opinion of some, the worst possible economic system on the planet.

 

Viva la revolucion!!

Fidel

Sven wrote:

George Victor wrote:

Yes, you can see a sick variation on the theme at work on Wall Street, where they have produced a near ciollapse of international banking, and still threaten to leave an economic canyon that will take moer than a decade to pave over...if we're lucky.

What does Wall Street have to do with Cuba "downsizing" a million jobs in Cuba?

What Cuba is doing is a particularly stunning admission of the failure of the Cuban system.

In the words of our Fidel: Viva la revolucion!

Sven, what is unsustainable is the American way of life and economy. Everyone knows that.

The reason Cuba is making these moves, I believe, is not because socialism doesn't work. It's because Cuba is isolated and embargoed by its natural trade partner to the North. People say the Vietnamese won the war against America. But that's not entirely true either as they were forced down the road of capital similarly by embargoes and vicious trade sanctions for many years after. Few developing countries get away with resisting the global reach of a vicious empire, its multinationals and its dominant revenue. Similarly, Soviet socialism didn't collapse "on its own" - oy was helped along and pushed over a cliff by a group of marauding multinationals and global financiers running the world at the time and still today.

Remember, your countrymen and their British controllers don't actually believe in free trade. Trade for them is a weapon to be used to destroy international sovereignty and violate democratic principles on a regular basis.

Capitalism has a tendency to consume itself. It's happening again. The Americans gave it a most noble effort to create the world's first constitutional democracy not controlled by a European financier oligarchy. But they have failed. It was inevitable.

They are now looking for a false pretext to start WW III. God help us.

Fidel

Sven wrote:

Fidel wrote:

The reason Cuba is making these moves, I believe, is not because socialism doesn't work. It's because Cuba is isolated and embargoed by its natural trade partner to the North.

Yeah.  Everything would be lollipops and candy canes in Cuba if only Cuba had strong economic ties to, in the opinion of some, the worst possible economic system on the planet.

 

Viva la revolucion!!

I don't blame you for what I think are ignorant political views. I've been to the states, and I know what it's like with the constant and pervasive rightwing propaganda down there 24/7. It's like one large prison for your mind. And it's getting so as Canada isn't much of an escape from that prison.

Sven Sven's picture

Fidel wrote:

I don't blame you for what I think are ignorant political views. I've been to the states, and I know what it's like with the constant and pervasive rightwing propaganda down there 24/7. It's like one large prison for your mind.

"Everything is the fault of America."

Repeat that three times, Fidel, and then click your heels and all will then be well in Cuba.

Snert Snert's picture

I don't think people thrive under an overcontrolling state any more than, as adults, we'd thrive living at home with our parents making our decisions for us.  I think a little free-market might help Cuba.  And really, like there was no "black market" before??

Fidel

Snert wrote:

I don't think people thrive under an overcontrolling state any more than, as adults, we'd thrive living at home with our parents making our decisions for us.  I think a little free-market might help Cuba.  And really, like there was no "black market" before??

Cuba's socialists and socialists around the world have always believed in free trade and trading freely. But when a country and its multinationals decide to use trade as a weapon, they cross the line into political interference. What we have witnessed for the last 60 years is economic warfare waged by an ideologically driven group of English speaking countries and their European friends who are even less democratically minded in certain ways. Democracy is their most hated institution still today.

NDPP

Sven wrote:

Fidel wrote:

I don't blame you for what I think are ignorant political views. I've been to the states, and I know what it's like with the constant and pervasive rightwing propaganda down there 24/7. It's like one large prison for your mind.

"Everything is the fault of America."

NDPP

I agree with both of you..

Caissa

As long as we have a world-wide capitalist system, socialism in one country is probably doomed to fail.

A former grad student colleage of mine who was a member of the IS was fond of syaing "You can't opt out of capitalism."

Sven Sven's picture

Caissa wrote:

As long as we have a world-wide capitalist system, socialism in one country is probably doomed to fail.

And with the two largest countries in the world (China and India, which have a combined population of about 2.5 billion people) on a firm capitalist trajectory, the long-term prospects for Cubanesque socialism is, indeed, bleak.  As [url=Raul">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11291267][u]Raul Castro[/url] said last month, "We have to end forever the notion that Cuba is the only country in the world where you can live without working."

 

Snert Snert's picture

Quote:
"We have to end forever the notion that Cuba is the only country in the world where you can live without working."

 

There's still Greece. ;)

Sven Sven's picture

Snert wrote:

Quote:
"We have to end forever the notion that Cuba is the only country in the world where you can live without working."

There's still Greece. ;)

Greece is learning (or will learn) the painful lesson that they can't live without working either.

Fidel

So, Sven, when do you think the minders in US government will allow you the personal freedom to travel to Cuba? Trust and obey, it's the only way. "Sounds of bleeting in the distance"

Sven Sven's picture

Fidel wrote:

So, Sven, when do you think the minders in US government will allow you the personal freedom to travel to Cuba?

I'm in total agreement with you on that point, Fidel.  I think the American economic policy towards Cuba is insane.

ETA: Oh, and as to "minders"?  Well, while I may disagree with America's policies towards Cuba, it's not something that is dictated to the American public by totalitarian "minders".  Unlike Cuba, which actually does have one-party minders, the American policy is the result of process of competing interests.  In a democracy, special interests have an inordinate amount of power when the vast majority of other people are indifferent on a subject.  Most Americans couldn't care less about our economic ties to Cuba.  But, there is a small minority of people (Cuban exiles in Miami, for example) who are highly motivated on this issue...and, like any special interest where there is otherwise broad ambivalence among the rest of the population, that special interest gets its way.  And, I'd rather have that messy system than totalitarian, one-party rule any day.

Stargazer

The only special interests that get their way in the US are business interests and the right. There is no true democracy there, nor here. Let's be real about this. We are all the property of multinational corporations. The choice is between being a slave to them, or to the state (their agent).

 

Cueball Cueball's picture

Stargazer wrote:

The only special interests that get their way in the US are business interests and the right. There is no true democracy there, nor here. Let's be real about this. We are all the property of multinational corporations. The choice is between being a slave to them, or to the state (their agent).

 

Yeah. I am not even allowed to read Granma in English apparently.

Fidel

Sven wrote:
ETA: Oh, and as to "minders"?  Well, while I may disagree with America's policies towards Cuba, it's not something that is dictated to the American public by totalitarian "minders".  Unlike Cuba, which actually does have one-party minders, the American policy is the result of process of competing interests.  In a democracy, special interests have an inordinate amount of power when the vast majority of other people are indifferent on a subject.  Most Americans couldn't care less about our economic ties to Cuba.  But, there is a small minority of people (Cuban exiles in Miami, for example) who are highly motivated on this issue...and, like any special interest where there is otherwise broad ambivalence among the rest of the population, that special interest gets its way.  And, I'd rather have that messy system than totalitarian, one-party rule any day.

Cuba is the only country in the world with representation in US Government. Don't you think that's a bit odd, Sven?

And you've got one-party rule in the US, too. Don't ever fool yourself. Your oligarchs pass Rep-Dem senators and congressmen around like so many three-bit whores on cowboy payday. Your governments are all bought and paid-for by the same handful of billionaires every four years. It's called fascism.

Sven Sven's picture

Stargazer wrote:

The only special interests that get their way in the US are business interests and the right.

That is only true if you define "special interests" to mean business interests.

In my mind, a "special interest" is any group of people who want the government to do or not do something where there is no broad consensus among the rest of the population on that subject.  Each of the following groups is a "special interest": Unions (which represent only about 15% of workers), the elderly, small businesses, large businesses, Cuban exiles, gay rights activists, evangelical Christians, the NRA - the list is virtually endless.

If there is Subject X and 20% of the population is highly interested and motivated regarding a specific policy position related to Subject X and if most of the rest of the population is largely ambivalent about Subject X, then the chances are that that "special interest" group will get its way.

I think the American policy on Cuba is a perfect example.  As I said above, the vast majority of Americans couldn't possibly care less about Cuba.  But, there is a small group of people who are highly motivated about the subject of Cuba (Cuban exiles) and, as a result, that small group of people holds political sway which is disproportionate to their numbers.

In other cases, by contrast, the interests of two or more "special interest" groups conflict with each other and the end political result is not as clearly predictable.  For example, a small minority of people are extremely active on both sides of the abortion issue (most people have a position on the matter but it's not a central theme to their very existence).  In those cases, there is usually a long and bloody political battle over the matter.

But, that is not the case with the American policy towards Cuba.

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Cuba needs to bring back the casino/club scen again in certain parts of the island. If the government controled it the procedees with them going to the people instead of the mafia this time it could relly add to the quality of life (not that it's bad there now)... let the rich Americans pay for thier health care

Done right it could work...

jacki-mo

Well I think that the explaination is that Socialism or Communism can never work. To blame the embargo is a cop out.

Doug

Snert wrote:

I don't think people thrive under an overcontrolling state any more than, as adults, we'd thrive living at home with our parents making our decisions for us.  I think a little free-market might help Cuba.  And really, like there was no "black market" before??

 

I think so too, but there's every risk of going too fast and ending up with a market economy in a depression.

George Victor

Anyone not comparing the fortunes of the common people of Cuba with the same social strata in the rest of Central and South America misses the point.  Or do the kudos only go automatically to places valuing the opportunity for self expression, individualism and the buck - the stuff of CAnadian/American aspirations - and nothing to do with medical attention, the right to education, adequate food for the kids and a narco-free society?  

Fidel

jacki-mo wrote:

Well I think that the explaination is that Socialism or Communism can never work. To blame the embargo is a cop out.

Imagine our stooges in Ottawa telling Nancy Pelosi and the Americans controlling our oil that they will have to start paying market rates for the massive amounts of oil and gas and hydro-electric power they siphon off from Canada 24/7. There would be some howling going on south of the border for sure.

Imagine what it will be like when America completes its transformation into a thirdworld, fully neoliberalized social and economic basket case, and they can no longer afford to pay for maintaining 700-1000 military and other bases around the world.

The proles in America outnumber the elites 99% to 1%. America is going to break down into violent rebellion one of these days. Mark my words.

Viva la revolucion!

 

Geoff OB

The right is having a field day, dancing on Cuban socialism's grave as a result of Castro's comment.  I think the following article presents a more level-headed analysis of the significance of what he said.  In essence, socialism is not dead; it's evolving as it has been since the revolution.  So, let's all chill, while the right gets it wrong - again.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/sep/10/fidel-cas...

 

 

Sven Sven's picture

Geoff OB wrote:

The right is having a field day, dancing on Cuban socialism's grave as a result of Castro's comment.

In light of the Cuban government's announcement to "downside" 1 million jobs (out of 5.5 million employees), Castro's comment a few days earlier is hardly even relevant.

Fidel

[url=Cuba">http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/861092--cuba-reveals-grand-pla... reveals grand plan for laid-off government workers[/url]

Toronto Star wrote:
The government will cushion the shock with continued handouts and a gradual transition, said John Kirk of Dalhousie University, who has published several books on Cuba.

“People will still get subsidized food, free education up to post graduate level, free health care and pharmaceuticals,” he said. “Accommodation may not be good, but it’s better than many Latin American countries, and 80 per cent of people own their own homes. Those who rent will spend only 10 per cent of their incomes on housing.”

This isn't socialism for Wall Street banksters. Cuba won't be transformed into a corrupt conservative nanny state anytime soon.

Cuba may begin to look a little like Sweden with it's "cradle to grave" social democracy driving more competitive economies.

Jacob Richter

I have read in the Guardian that this is actually an attempt at economic integration, not with "globalization" but with Venezuela.

Whatever market drives come out of this, it had better be oriented towards opening towards South America and remain shut to US capitalists.

Sven Sven's picture

Fidel wrote:

Toronto Star wrote:

"People will still get subsidized food, free education up to post graduate level, free health care and pharmaceuticals,” he said. “Accommodation may not be good, but it’s better than many Latin American countries, and 80 per cent of people own their own homes. Those who rent will spend only 10 per cent of their incomes on housing.”

So, what's the big kerfluffle all about, right?!

If the average Canadian was forced to live like the average Cuban has live for the last half century, there'd be riots in the streets and not a single government building would remain standing.  Yet, Cuba is held up as being a paragon of excellence and justice and the Canadian system is loathed and hated.

Go figure...

The Swedish social/economic model may work for many countries.  But two things are certain: (1) Cuba isn't even close to mirroring the Swedish social/economic model and (2) Communism is an utterly failed concept.

George Victor

Your Amera-centric view of "the good life", Sven, is a revelation of how far afield the ethno-centric can wander in search of justification for their "values"...   Knowing that "our" system of social and economic values is destroying the foundation of life itself in Earth's biosphere, some of us would like to return to simpler values and lifestyle. But all we can do in the meantime is plant gardens and foment for better public transportation and an education system that does not turn out people whose goal in life is to indulge in conspicuous consumption.

Sven Sven's picture

George Victor wrote:

Your Amera-centric view of "the good life", Sven, is a revelation of how far afield the ethno-centric can wander in search of justification for their "values"...   Knowing that "our" system of social and economic values is destroying the foundation of life itself in Earth's biosphere, some of us would like to return to simpler values and lifestyle. But all we can do in the meantime is plant gardens and foment for better public transportation and an education system that does not turn out people whose goal in life is to indulge in conspicuous consumption.

Let me ask you a simple question: Do you think Canadians would exchange their economic condition for that lived by the Cubans for the last 50 years?

Fidel

Sven wrote:

Fidel wrote:

Toronto Star wrote:

"People will still get subsidized food, free education up to post graduate level, free health care and pharmaceuticals,” he said. “Accommodation may not be good, but it’s better than many Latin American countries, and 80 per cent of people own their own homes. Those who rent will spend only 10 per cent of their incomes on housing.”

So, what's the big kerfluffle all about, right?!

If the average Canadian was forced to live like the average Cuban has live for the last half century, there'd be riots in the streets and not a single government building would remain standing.  Yet, Cuba is held up as being a paragon of excellence and justice and the Canadian system is loathed and hated.

We loathe our stooges and vicious toadies, Sven. And your countrymen are prodded into voting for two wings of the exact same party representing billionaire interests same as Canadians are, except that your farcical elections cost a lot more than ours do.

Sven wrote:
The Swedish social/economic model may work for many countries.  But two things are certain: (1) Cuba isn't even close to mirroring the Swedish social/economic model and (2) Communism is an utterly failed concept.

1) Sweden never had to endure embargoes and sanctions in any way since 1959. Meanwhile, the US Military and CIA have had to invade Haiti dozens of times since the last century to put down peasant revolts against intolerable US-backed tyrants over the years. Their first and last democratically elected leader in Port Au Prince was abducted by the CIA and ferreted off to the other side of the world.Democracy is the right's most hated institution and always will be.

2) The Sovs have endured their period of glasnost, whereas elites in the USSA continue to be in denial and avoiding the fact that the system was corrupted long ago and now teetering on the verge of economic collapse. The difference is, the USSR wasn't as bankrupt by 1989. And according to "official" US unemployment statistics, America has 30 times the number living in relative poverty that Russia did by 1989. And American style perestroika reforms haven't even begun yet.

Sven Sven's picture

Fidel wrote:

Would every American exchange their lifestyles with those of Newfoundlanders? Puerto Ricans? How about that US protectorate 55 miles from Cuba, Haiti?

Allow me to reiterate.  If the Cuban system is wonderful and the Canadian system is loathsome: Do you think Canadians would exchange their economic condition for that lived by the Cubans for the last 50 years?

Fidel

Would every American exchange their lifestyles with those of Newfoundlanders? Puerto Ricans? How about that US protectorate 55 miles from Cuba, Haiti? Why are there kids in El Salvador and Honduras not in school today,Sven? Why are they rummaging through human excrement and medical waste at landfills looking for trinkets to sell when they are just a few days' drive from the land of the free?

Why did dubya refuse to allow Cubans to come to New Orleans after Katrina, Sven?  Where did they ship all those people?

George Victor

Sven wrote:

George Victor wrote:

Your Amera-centric view of "the good life", Sven, is a revelation of how far afield the ethno-centric can wander in search of justification for their "values"...   Knowing that "our" system of social and economic values is destroying the foundation of life itself in Earth's biosphere, some of us would like to return to simpler values and lifestyle. But all we can do in the meantime is plant gardens and foment for better public transportation and an education system that does not turn out people whose goal in life is to indulge in conspicuous consumption.

Let me ask you a simple question: Do you think Canadians would exchange their economic condition for that lived by the Cubans for the last 50 years?

Let me ask you a not-so-simple question in return, Sven.  Do you think that Canadians' views of the good life sprang into being 50 years ago (your dateline), or were they perhaps a product, partly of the scarcity of the Great Depression and a World War?  I can't blame me old mom for wanting a fridge to replace her icebox, and a washing machine to replace the old hand-crank washing machine that I was conscripted into working. 

But it's like the late Malcolm Lowry (Under the Volcano) wrote from his little shack on the beach in B.C. in the late 40s. (to be read in a postumously published collection)  God had been replaced by the American appliances. 

You have to begin to wonder at the sources of our perverted values, Sven.  And wonder at their obdurate nature even in the face of the knowledge that they are destroying us.    Shakespeare said something about our tendency for self-endangerment, but I'm damned if it will pop up.

Fidel

Canada is naturally wealthy and giving much of it away to corporate America, Sven. No comparison. We are a relatively tiny population living in the third largest country in the world with unparalleled natural wealth being siphoned off to the south in order to prop-up the world's most fossil fuel-dependent, most wasteful and most unsustainable economy in the world. Would we compare standards of living of Tuvalu and Germany? Why not?

What's stopping Haiti, an island nation described by Washington as the "freest trading nation in the Caribbean, from becoming as wealthy as Singapore?

What makes Singapore the export and trade powerhouse that it is? It's not because China or the US and Europe have waged economic warfare against tiny Singapore since the 1960's, Sven. Singapore has a natural geographic trade partner in Asia and all those countries. It's the same with Newfoundland and PEI. What if our stooges in Ottawa and Washington were to say to provincial governments on those islands 50 years ago that they could buy a number of commodities and wares from the mainland. But those governments can not export anything they produce or grow to the mainland. What would Newfoundland and PEI look like after 50 years worth o' that, Sven?

ygtbk

At the risk of being obvious, there was a reason that the Berlin Wall was built. And it wasn't to keep West Berliners from moving to East Berlin. Given a chance, people vote with their feet.

George Victor

ygtbk wrote:

At the risk of being obvious, there was a reason that the Berlin Wall was built. And it wasn't to keep West Berliners from moving to East Berlin. Given a chance, people vote with their feet.

 

And our kids are being left to live with our voting choices.     

It's called a screwed up values system... a social pathology might just be able to explain it.

Fidel

ygtbk wrote:

At the risk of being obvious, there was a reason that the Berlin Wall was built. And it wasn't to keep West Berliners from moving to East Berlin. Given a chance, people vote with their feet.

Another Cold War Myth 

[url=http://www.counterpunch.org/blum10022009.html]The Fall of the Berlin Wall[/url] By WILLIAM BLUM

Quote:
In 1999, USA Today reported: "When the Berlin Wall crumbled, East Germans imagined a life of freedom where consumer goods were abundant and hardships would fade. Ten years later, a remarkable 51% say they were happier with communism." (USA Today, October 11, 1999, p.1.)

Many East Berliners were happy commuting to work in the west. That was until the Gladio gang began with terrorist shananigans and employing what was left of Himmler's SS to spy on the Sovs.

ygtbk

Fidel wrote:

ygtbk wrote:

At the risk of being obvious, there was a reason that the Berlin Wall was built. And it wasn't to keep West Berliners from moving to East Berlin. Given a chance, people vote with their feet.

Another Cold War Myth 

[url=http://www.counterpunch.org/blum10022009.html]The Fall of the Berlin Wall[/url] By WILLIAM BLUM

Quote:
In 1999, USA Today reported: "When the Berlin Wall crumbled, East Germans imagined a life of freedom where consumer goods were abundant and hardships would fade. Ten years later, a remarkable 51% say they were happier with communism." (USA Today, October 11, 1999, p.1.)

Many East Berliners were happy commuting to work in the west. That was until the Gladio gang began with terrorist shananigans and employing what was left of Himmler's SS to spy on the Sovs.

So who built the Berlin Wall? Take your time.

ygtbk

George Victor wrote:

ygtbk wrote:

At the risk of being obvious, there was a reason that the Berlin Wall was built. And it wasn't to keep West Berliners from moving to East Berlin. Given a chance, people vote with their feet.

 

And our kids are being left to live with our voting choices.     

It's called a screwed up values system... a social pathology might just be able to explain it.

Assuming that people can't figure out their own best interests would seem to be pretty close to declaring that democracy can't work. I assume that's not a conclusion that you're trying to reach.

Fidel

Don't read Blum's article. You might learn something about the cold war lies and propaganda they spoon fed us for 50 years.

Pages