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I just realized ikosmos is gone.  Sorry ikosmos I would stood up for you.  A 15 year commtiment to rabble and you get voted of the island.  Sometimes you were zealous and annoying but life ban is sad.  I have crossed people here and i feel that alot of my comments go agaisnt the grain here.  One of the these days i will be voted off the too.  I have had felt myself censor what i want say because I feel the envolpe of permitted expression is getting smaller and smaller in the light of trumps win. 

Martin N.

Unionist wrote:

Mobo2000 wrote:

Well that settles it.   Congratulations to everyone who complained.  

I realize there is no point in registering my disagreement with this, but I'll do it anyways.   I am very sorry to see ikosmos go and I hope he will be reinstated.

Yeah, same here. Banned because he has trouble controlling his language? Someone who has participated here since the beginning of Shit, how are we going to build any kind of movement in this country?

I never liked bannings, except for obvious trolls etc. This one is really unacceptable. And I speak as someone who does not share ikosmos's obsessive apologias for the reactionary regime in Moscow. I speak as someone who comes from an industrial workplace and the trade union movement, where we learn (like it or not) to work together with everyone, regardless of style or opinion - except our enemies.

Please reconsider.

Too bad ikosmos is gone. Fifty percent of the entertainment value here was created by ikosmos. A few hostile, humourless posters take themselves much too seriously and will drive this site into oblivion. So many names missing, so many posters being careful with their words to avoid confrontation with the complainers.


Is this the appropriate time and place to complain about people complaining about the complainers? 


Moscow Has "No Naive Expectations' About Resetting Ties With US - Lavrov

"Russa does not have any 'illusions' or 'naive expectations' regarding a reset in the relationship with Washington under the new US administration,' Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said..."

Martin N.

sherpa-finn wrote:

Is this the appropriate time and place to complain about people complaining about the complainers? 

Of course it is although it is de rigeur if not de jure to meekly fade away once the voice of authority has spoken and the voice of reigning ideology delivered the appropriate scolding.

Martin N.

NDPP wrote:

Moscow Has "No Naive Expectations' About Resetting Ties With US - Lavrov

"Russa does not have any 'illusions' or 'naive expectations' regarding a reset in the relationship with Washington under the new US administration,' Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said..."

Lavrov is a very cunning and crafty chap, not to be underestimated.

Rev Pesky

Timebandit wrote:
That is such a tone deaf, typically male (especially of a certain vintage) response - and yes, mansplaining is patronizing, and so was your last post. Most babblers have identified as either male or female, and have even been open about their sexuality if you've been paying attention. Maybe you should give it a try.

How do you know I'm a man?

As far as 'reverse racism', I agree, it doesn't exist. Racism does exist however, and it is not confined to Caucasians. My sister was married to a Jordanian Arab, and I remember having dinner with them. Her husband was telling stories of Saudis, and he often made reference to them as 'short' and 'dumpy'. It was very clear that he was racist in regards to Saudi Arabs.

When I was in St. Thomas, Virgin Islands, walking from the pier to downtown to go shopping. I got lost, and decided to cut through an area rather than go around. As I did so, I heard a shout from some men working on a sidewalk a little ways away. I didn't understand what they were saying (they speak English, but of course it was unfamiliar to my ears), so I walked over to see what they wanted.

They pointed out to me that my skin was the wrong colour for going through that area. Now, I don't think they were racist, after all, they were just giving me a warning. However, it was clear to me that they were warning me for a reason. My pink skin would not be welcome in that area.

So what do you call it when people make fun of, or discriminate against, others based on their racial characteristics? I agree it's not 'reverse racism'. What it is is just plain old racism, and it exists all over the place. 

Re: from above quote:

Most babblers have identified as either male or female, and have even been open about their sexuality if you've been paying attention. Maybe you should give it a try.

Maybe you should try ignoring people's gender.



Domestic violence law passes third reading. The article provides details about how it will function. (Sorry, HTML not working and I don't have the patience.) 

Decriminalizing assault on the basis of a family relationship is perverse and morally repugnant.  If the concern is with overciminalization, apply the policy to all assaults.

Sean in Ottawa

pookie wrote:

Domestic violence law passes third reading. The article provides details about how it will function. (Sorry, HTML not working and I don't have the patience.) 

Decriminalizing assault on the basis of a family relationship is perverse and morally repugnant.  If the concern is with overciminalization, apply the policy to all assaults.

Absolutely -- the basis of relationship suggests ownership.


It is a truly misogynist law. But it seems the "administrative" fine for beating your relatives is $500 or community service or 15 days in jail for the first time you slap someone around. The insidious part of the Russian law compared to Canada is they require the person who was assaulted to gather the evidence and prove the case.

Here is good article explaining some background to the law and why it passed. I still don't like the law but it makes a bit more sense now.


The debate began in 2016, when the government decriminalised battery, the least violent form of assault on the Russian statute books. Russia is one of three countries in Europe and Central Asia that do not have laws specifically targeting domestic violence. Instead it is treated like other forms of assault, ignoring the fact that spouses and children are more vulnerable than other victims. But when it decriminalised battery last June, the Duma decided to exempt domestic abuse, instead making it subject to the same two-year maximum sentence as racially motivated offences.

That pleased civil-society groups that had been pushing for tougher rules. But the Russian Orthodox Church was furious. Scripture and Russian tradition, the church said, regard “the reasonable and loving use of physical punishment as an essential part of the rights given to parents by God himself”. Meanwhile, conservative groups worried that parents might face jail. They argued that it was wrong for parents to face harsher punishment for hitting their child than a neighbour would.

Under pressure from such groups, deputies have put forward a bill that makes the first instance of poboi—battery that does not do lasting harm—an administrative violation carrying a fine of 30,000 roubles ($502), community service or a 15-day detention. It also returns the crime to the realm of “private prosecution”, where the victim is responsible for collecting evidence and bringing a case. Repeat offences would be criminal infractions, but only within a year of the first, giving abusers a pass to beat relatives once a year. Vyacheslav Volodin, the speaker of the Duma, says the bill would help build “strong families”. The bill’s second reading on January 25th won 385 out of 387 votes. It is expected to sail through its third reading and be signed into law by Mr Putin.



John Helmer: The Western Press Incorrectly Depicts Putin As On The Wrong Side of a Feminist Issue

"...I'm running this post because it shows the lengths to which many media outlets are going to keep the 'evil Putin' story alive..."


More than a month after Russia announced one of its biggest privatizations since the 1990s, selling a 19.5 percent stake in its giant oil company Rosneft, it still isn't possible to determine from public records the full identities of those who bought it.


A prominent Russian opposition activist has been hospitalised with organ failure, two years after he almost died of suspected poisoning.

Journalist Vladimir Kara-Murza, who works for pro-democracy group Open Russia, fell ill at about 05:00 local time (02:00 GMT).




You mean Open Russia the 'pro-democracy' organ established by oil billionaire Mikhail Khodorkovsky? My sources quote Kara Murza's father ruling out deliberate poisoning and told Kommersannt that his son's condition could be explained by an allergy or a high-stress lifestyle with irregular meals and little sleep. Putin should pay Open Russia to stick around, given the miniscule support this 'opposition' enjoys from people who actually live and vote there.


Russia deploys missile in apparent treaty violation


Russian plane just buzzed a USA destroyer ship in the Black Sea


Was it within the 12 mile territorial waters of Russia?

Doug Woodard

Putin's Russia: where it is and where it's going:

Scroll down to contents.

Briefly: a corrupt capitalist country where there is no security cannot keep let alone attract capital. The people can no longer exchange freedom for prosperity. If this continues, more repression is the only course for the regime. 


Regarding the Black Sea encounter, no. It was in international waters. All of the planes were flying without radio responders. One was armed, and came within 200 meters of the ship. The destroyer was in the area because of military exercises with the Romanian navy.



Russia cozies up to right-wing Republicans.  Everything from fundamentalist Christians to abortion to guns.



wow josh.

Evanglical Christian = Republican = NRA = pro-Russian

now i didn't for one minute believe it was the Republicans who'd want to destroy the US.



Russia's Coming Attack on Canada: The Smear Job on Chrystia Freeland is Only the Start

"...Russia has three objectives as it goes after Canada. The first is to undermine any policies or politicians seen to be against Moscow's interests. For example, the Russian Embassy has already been trying to discredit Canada's Foreign Minister Chrystia Freeland, an outspoken advocate for continued sanctions, with a smear job about her grandfather.

Russia also wants to discredit the broader political system, to undermine Canada's 'faith in the system', be it our own election process, or system of government, or parliamentary affairs.

Finally, it wants to undermine support for our allies, and for the international system including NATO and the United Nations...

It is impossible to say if Moscow will be as successful here, but we do know the Russians are always trying..."

How useful the promulgation of Russophobia is for our elites - justifies and excuses almost anything - except protest or  dissent against it, which it can then demonize and suppress as 'pro-Russian'. And so widespread and deeply entrenched particularly within the 'progressive' liberal-left.


how can truth be a smear?


The smear (and the lie) is that she has denied the truth.  And that her paying tribute to her grandfather's work for Ukrainian culture she is praising Nazism. And that the current Ukrainian government are Nazis.


they aren't???

she isn't?


Nope. She didn't.

And nope. They aren't.


she has stated her grandfther was a Nazi collaborator who came to Canada under those auspices?

and the Banderists she supports aren't white supremists?




She didn't deny that he worked for that paper during the war. And she edited the article that people are using to make that accusation. Does that sound like she is trying to cover anything up?

And your second question doesn't have anything to do with the government of Ukraine, or its policies. But to answer it, is everyone who calls themselves a Banderist, or considers him an important political figure, a Nazi? No.

Is everyone who considers John A Macdonald a statesman complicit in his atrocities? Or a fascist?

Whatever anyone thinks of Canada's role over there, Freeland is right in calling that out as propaganda and smears.



why did she edited it?


I don't know quizzical. You'd have to ask her. Presumably because it concerned a member of her family. And was written by another family member.

Point is, the information about him working for a newspaper which was controlled by the Nazis is in there. So in addition to the fact she has not denied anything, the notion that she is trying to suppress anything is nonsense.

Well, not nonsense exactly. A calculated smear.




so what did she edit?



Seems to me that after her Uncle wrote the book that he got her to help edit she did indeed know the truth fully. After that she downplayed it and goiven her Uncle's book wasn't exactly a best seller it was easy for her to carefully give a different impression of his history. Some people don't pick up on those nuances. Christy Clark is another one that is great at telling the half lie. Liberal liars are Liberal liars.


interesting article by David here's a quote....

"The people expressing this view are not neo-fascist freaks and the “Old Stock Canadian” wing of the post-Harper Conservative Party, but writers of normally moderate views who are otherwise decent people. Such suggestions, for example, are contained in pieces by such usually thoughtful writers as Paula Simons of the Edmonton Journal, Colby Cosh of the National Post and Paul Wells of the Toronto Star.

This is truly disturbing, suggesting the rot from acting as a vector for more than 30 years of neoliberal propaganda has set so deeply into the Canadian mainstream media it can no longer locate its moral compass"



and more from the linked article above......

"However, it is the fact she and her staff tried to pass off her grandfather’s history, which we now know to be true, as Russian disinformation that should concern us all, regardless of our views about Russia’s policies in Crimea, Eastern Ukraine or Syria.

Thanks to the Globe and Mail, we know that Ms. Freeland knew about her grandfather’s collaborationist history for more than 20 years.

In other words, she was lying to us, at a minimum by omission and misdirection. Surely such activities are inappropriate the occupant of any cabinet post, let alone the sensitive and senior foreign affairs portfolio.


she needs to be pulled as foreign affairs minister. it's bs.


Well I'll ask the question again. When did she deny it? Did she lie about any of it?

How is her pointing out some good work he had done a "different version"?  If I say something nice about someone am I required to recite their entire life history? And what does any of it have to do with her work?

(again, except for those trying to smear her)


"How is her pointing out some good work he had done a "different version"?  If I say something nice about someone am I required to recite their entire life history?"

"Conservative Senator Lynn Beyak mounted a defence of the residential school system for Aboriginal children in the Red Chamber Tuesday, lamenting that the "good deeds" accomplished by "well-intentioned" religious teachers have been overshadowed by negative reports documented by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission."

I can see that others share your logic. So what if grandpa was a Nazi collaberator as long as he hated Russians and loved the Ukraine. The Nazi thing is minor compared to his brave fight for Ukranian freedom. 


in  case you missed it Smith from the CTV link above

"An official in Ms. Freeland’s office denied that the minister’s grandfather was a Nazi collaborator"

then there's this; "Ms. Freeland has written that her maternal grandparents fled Ukraine in 1939, describing them as “political exiles with a responsibility to keep alive the idea of an independent Ukraine.”

when in fact they left when the Nazi's did in the 1940's. they weren't political exiles  even. ffs. i expect more from the person who is supposed to be representing me on the world stage.

trying to smear those who are saying in truth she is a lying liar as smearers is equivalent to those truthfully calling Trump and friends lying liars as Trump smearers.



She didn't say that. Some unnamed person in her department did. And not that I doubt it, but there isn't even a direct quote.

And yes, they were political exiles from the Soviet side of the line. Why? Because by 1939 Ukrainians had a 10 year history of attacks, deportations, and genocide by Soviets. They had no such experience at that time with the Nazis.

Besides, they weren't the only ones who decided to cooperate with them in 1939.

We have another thread on this specific topic where we just went over all this, including the quote you just pulled. And if you read what happened on that side of the line after 1939 (also in the other thread) leaving was probably a wise choice.

And if it isn't a smear, then let's have some evidence that the accusation of denying and lying is true, and then an explanation of how this relates to her doing her job.



well smith i continued reading up on all this right here at rabble

i'll let Baglow's blog words answer you:

"So is this story just more Russian disinformation, as Freeland claims?

No, it isn't, as it happens.

One salient point is the lengths to which Freeland has gone to present her grandfather as a mere victim. For example:

I'm…a proud member of the Ukrainian-Canadian community. My maternal grandparents fled western Ukraine after Hitler and Stalin signed their non-aggression pact in 1939. They never dared to go back, but they stayed in close touch with their brothers and sisters and their families, who remained behind. For the rest of my grandparents' lives, they saw themselves as political exiles with a responsibility to keep alive the idea of an independent Ukraine, which had last existed, briefly, during and after the chaos of the 1917 Russian Revolution. That dream persisted into the next generation, and in some cases the generation after that.

This is an unvarnished lie. Chomiak did not flee in 1939. He moved to Cracow, the capital of the Nazi Generalgouvernement, to become chief editor of a pro-Nazi collaborationist newspaper called Kravivski Visti. He worked out of offices that had been vacated by their Jewish owners, and then, when the tide of war turned, he continued his work in Nazi-occupied Vienna. He presided over the publication of virulently anti-Jewish articles in 1943, under orders from the occupying Nazi forces, and his editors actively solicited them."


also, i'll take exception to Baglow's use of "been vacated by their Jewish owners" as from what i read around the web this aft was the space and equipment were stolen from their Jewish owner and the familiy was sent to a concentration camp.

he too trivializes what happened. i think he should make a clarification on this as to me it's kinda like the guy in the USA who said slaves were immigrants too.


oh and i just found this on rabble......

is our military and by extension us Ms Freeland's personal military.

this is why she needs to be gone.....


And in the meantime, the President of Russia's political party happily signs "friendship agreements" with European political parties that were founded not by the grandchildren of Nazis, or the children of Nazis, but by actual Nazis.


Yeah, I read that article. I'm not sure what Baglow thinks is a lie. Leaving the Soviet occupied part of Poland because they were concerned about persecution is in fact fleeing.

As I said in the other thread, I know everyone considers the Nazis the worst evil in the world, and can't understand why anyone would flee TO that part of Poland. But in fact people fled across that border from both sides to escape persecution, and many were deported back by the Soviets and by the Nazis. I'd suggest reading some of the history, because if you look at what was actually being done by the Soviets there were plenty of people - including many Ukrainians - who had good reason to do just that. And hundreds of thousands who did not, and did not survive.



and yet more from the Liberal family...

Husband of Canada's Environment Minister Warns of Russia's 'Coming Attack' on Canada

Relentless Russophobia - why are so many so-called Canadian 'progressives' such suckers for  whatever nefarious projects the imperium's currently pushing? They've even got the NDP to Sieg Heil  these Ukrainian fascists.  (Slava Ukraini!)  Will 'Russians to the knives!' be next?  



Smih they didn't flee. they moved to take a job.

from the consortium link above

"... Chomiak moved from Ukraine to Nazi-occupied Poland in order to work for the Third Reich under the command of Governor-General Hans Frank, the man who organized the Holocaust in Poland. ..Freeland’s grandfather – rather than being a helpless victim – was given a prestigious job to spread Nazi propaganda, praising Hitler from a publishing house stolen from Jews and given to Ukrainians who shared the values of Nazism.

On April 24, 1940, Krakivski Visti published a full-page panegyric to Adolf Hitler dedicated to his 51st birthday (four days earlier). Chomiak also hailed Governor-General Hans Frank: “The Ukrainian population were overjoyed to see the establishment of fair German authority, the bearer of which is you, Sir Governor-General. The Ukrainian people expressed this joy not only through the flowers they threw to the German troops entering the region, but also through the sacrifices of blood required to fight Polish usurpers.” (Because of Frank’s role in the Holocaust, the Nuremberg Tribunal found him guilty of crimes against humanity and executed him.)

Beyond extolling Hitler and his henchmen, Chomiak rejoiced over Nazi military victories, including the terror bombings of Great Britain. While praising the Third Reich, Krakivski Visti was also under orders by the German authorities to stir up hatred against the Jewish population. Editorial selections from Chomiak’s newspaper can be found in Holocaust museums around the world, such as the one in Los Angeles, California."





Um. quizzical. Do you really think Hitler was posting job ads in Lviv and Kiev recruiting Nazis, and Chomiak just happened to answer one and decided Cracow would be a nice change and an opportunity for some mountain air?

That is exactly what Freeland is talking about when she refers to these stories as disinformation. Leaving out the fact all this happened in a slaughterhouse. And that while the Nazis and the Soviets may have cooperated (to the point that the Gestapo and NKVD met regularly to coordinate their work) there was a very real border between their zones of occupation, and people were being murdered on both sides of it.

Read the history before accepting half-truths as fact.

Same goes for the real reason for all this attention - the Russian lie that the current Ukrainian government is nothing but neo-Nazis put there by the Americans.





A former Russian press minister and aide to President Vladimir Putin who was found dead in a Washington, D.C., hotel last November died from blunt force injuries, according to a report from the chief medical examiner's office.

It's the first time an official cause of death for Mikhail Lesin has been announced in the case. When Lesin died four months ago, Russian media outlets reported that the cause was a heart attack, citing family members.



Smith, i don't believe Freeland or yourself.

i don't need to look up "history" i'm fully aware of the self serving nature of people and the world of propaganda during WWII.

the grandfather of my former partner was a Camp X propagandist and he spoke with me lots about the propagand war on both sides.

oh sure there could've been a bit of self-preservation going on with the move. but imv not much. they wouldn't have wanted to hire him if they didn't like his previous work on the same topic imv.

my paternal great grandmother's family fled eastern europe because of propagandists stirring up hate against Jews and the pogroms which happened after the stirring. this was long before WWII but imv it didn't and has never stopped.

i look at this reality and see her grandfather coming from a long line.

just the fact she has tried to cover this up and lie indicates to me how bang on the rest of the reports on her are.

just the fact alone they were in a ritzy spa after they "surrendered" indicates how high level her grandfather was.




Anyone else seen this doc about the Russian Woodpecker?