Saudis retaliate after Canada criticizes human rights violations

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cco

It might be, if it were the same people saying those things. Lots of people post on Babble. Personally, if Trudeau cancelled the Saudi arms deal tomorrow, and nationalized the entire energy sector (not just "bought a single pipeline") on Tuesday, he'd go up quite a few notches in my estimation. As it is, he's standing up to Saudi Arabia rhetorically, with carefully carved exemptions for where it actually matters, and taking one toxic asset off Kinder Morgan's hands, the better to enable them to continue business as usual, with every intention of reprivatizing it after it's built. That could most charitably be described as "baby steps".

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
Lots of people post on Babble.

Well, lots used to.

Quote:
if Trudeau cancelled the Saudi arms deal tomorrow, and nationalized the entire energy sector (not just "bought a single pipeline") on Tuesday, he'd go up quite a few notches in my estimation.

What's your exchange rate, in notches-per-pipeline.

Quote:
That could most charitably be described as "baby steps".

To paraphrase, the journey of a thousand miles begins with the first [baby] step.

 

NDPP

Former Canadian FM Urges Trudeau To Travel To Riyadh To Defuse Tensions (and vid)

https://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/gulf/2018/08/11/Former-Canadian-FM...

The former official stressed the need for direct talks through the Canadian PM Justin Trudeau visiting Riyadh to meet with King Salman and Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. The former Canadian FM praised the reforms in Saudi Arabia. The Guardian newspaper reported that Canada became an isolated nation after its recent dispute with Saudi Arabia..."

 

"When Baird was on BNN Bloomberg this week, he was identified as an advisor to Bennett Jones, but neither he nor Amanda Lang mentioned any of his ongoing corporate ties to Saudi Arabia..."

https://twitter.com/anthonyfenton/status/1028381499471486976

Baird also serves as a 'consultant' to Ontario Premier Doug Ford

NDPP

Rank And File Radio: Canada & Saudi Arabia (podcast)

https://twitter.com/RFRadioPrairie/status/1028776678015868929

"Saudi Arabia, the arms deal, Cdn Wheat Board and 'ethical oil'. Anthony Fenton is a researcher based in BC, specializing in Canadian political economy and international relations." @11:00

voice of the damned

The Guardian newspaper reported that Canada became an isolated nation after its recent dispute with Saudi Arabia.

I wouldn't say it's so much that we became an isolated nation generally, as it is that no one really joined us in this particular battle. And to be honest, with a nod to cco's "carefully carved exemptions" phrasing, there really hasn't been a battle to join anyway.  

NDPP

Liberal political strategist: 'Trudeau and the Liberal government approved selling more than 900 Canadian-made military vehicles to Saudi Arabia, which have been used to assist the Saudis killing people in Yemen.'

https://twitter.com/anthonyfenton/status/1028872117972918272

 

"Mass torture in network of UAE-run prisons in south Yemen, a report by Al Jazeera has found. UAE, of course, is Canada's #1 trading partner in the GCC, and is a key ally that Ottawa is leaning on to help find a way out of the Saudi crisis."

https://twitter.com/anthonyfenton/status/1028881747990130688

The real 'Canadian values'. 

NorthReport

The Saudi Wealth Fund has bot 5% of Tesla

NorthReport
NDPP

Saudi Spat With Canada Could Be 'Proxy' For US Quarrels With Trudeau Government

https://bit.ly/2MeVPkI

"Saudi Arabia's 'extreme' response to Canada's tweet deploring its human rights record would not have been made without the knowledge of the White House and could be a proxy for the US' own frustration with Ottawa, say political observers. 

'I think they had to have the green light from the Trump administration,' says Jabeur Fathally, a professor specializing in international law at the University of Ottawa. 'Washington is trying to make the Trudeau government weaker..." [sorry paywall]

voice of the damned

NDPP wrote:

Saudi Spat With Canada Could Be 'Proxy' For US Quarrels With Trudeau Government

https://bit.ly/2MeVPkI

"Saudi Arabia's 'extreme' response to Canada's tweet deploring its human rights record would not have been made without the knowledge of the White House and could be a proxy for the US' own frustration with Ottawa, say political observers. 

'I think they had to have the green light from the Trump administration,' says Jabeur Fathally, a professor specializing in international law at the University of Ottawa. 'Washington is trying to make the Trudeau government weaker..." [sorry paywall]

I dunno. This particular White House is a total shambles. I doubt they're on top of every single tweet made by world leaders, and then ready to call up the offended tweetee and dictate just the right response to create a confrontation.

At most, the Saudis might have called up Trump and said they were gonna start trashing Trudeau, and Trump replied "Sounds great guys, looking forward to it!!" If even that degree of synchronization.

NorthReport

dp

NorthReport

Thanks to the Trudeau/Freeland Twitter Diplomacy the Canadian dollar will now sink like a stone

bekayne

NorthReport wrote:

Thanks to the Trudeau/Freeland Twitter Diplomacy the Canadian dollar will now sink like a stone

Facepalm.

NDPP

It's Time for the Trudeau Government to Move Past its Errors and Post Some Wins in Foreign Policy

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-its-time-for-the-trudea...

"The painful confrontation with Saudi Arabia is yet another example of the continuity-of-errors that defines much of this Liberal government's approaches to Canada in the world. 'It's a sad tale of unfulfilled promises and possibilities left unexplored and amateurish stumbling about,' says Daryle Copeland, a foreign policy analyst who spent three decades as a diplomat at Foreign Affairs. 'And it needn't be so.'

Chrystia Freeland's mishandling of the contretemps with the Saudis is truly baffling. Yes, Riyadh wildly overreacted to the tweets from the Foreign Affairs Minister and her department demanding the release of human rights activists. But the prolonged detention of these activists is now virtually guaranteed, which is the very opposite of what Ms Freeland hoped to achieve. All this appears to be part of a general Liberal incoherence on foreign policy..."

Pogo Pogo's picture

Our trade with Saudi Arabia is pretty small. Notice they are not talking about factories closing, but rather of in demand post-secondary spots being freed up. If I was going to pick a fight that was more for show than anything else I can't think of a better one.

NDPP

I agree. It's an odious, pernicious monarchy in alliance with similarly malevolent entities and agendas bringing murder and mayhem to the Middle East and exporting its awful Wahabbism worldwide.  To resist collaboration and complicity with it should be the duty of any true progressive. What is being done to Yemen is simply barbaric. That Canada should sell them billions in weaponry to help them do it is an outrage beyond words.

NDPP

'This Has Not Been A Good Hour For Canada': John Baird Slams Trudeau Govt on Saudi State TV

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/this-has-not-been-a-good-hour-for-c...

"I think the Canadian government is only beginning to understand how offensive their conduct has been to the Saudi government,' he said. 'This is giving Canada a bad reputation.' Baird now works at a series of consultancy roles, including a position on the advisory board for Barrick, a major mining firm with interests in Saudi Arabia.  Saudi-controlled media are going nuts with Baird's statements, they're taking it as proof that Canada is wrong and that Saudi Arabia is right,' said Iyad el Baghdadi, an Oslo-based Arab affairs observer and president of the pro-democracy Kawaakibi Center. He added: 'I have no idea what he was thinking.'

Probably Saudi money, like most do.

 

"Singh also walked back his recent comments suggesting Canada should stop importing oil from Saudi Arabia, saying that's 'not (his) priority.' Last week, Singh suggested on CBC's Power and Politics that Canada should stop importing oil from the Gulf Kingdom and consider importing from other countries 'as an alternative.' 

His comments came in the wake of Saudi Arabia's decision to expel Canada's ambassador and freeze new trade with Canada after Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland publicly criticized the recent arrest of women's rights activists in that country. 'There's other nations that we can look at in terms of access to oil and we should look at that as well,' Singh told host Vassy Kapelos. 'I think we should take a hard look at: does it make sense to continue to have...trade relations with a country that has such a bad trade record...?"

https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/i-think-shes-better-than-that-jag...

Canadian politicians sell out on Saudi Arabia. No weapons, no oil. Boycott Now!

NDPP

Lastest Saudi Behaviour Another Reason To Cancel Arms Deal

https://www.opencanada.org/features/latest-saudi-behaviour-another-reaso...

"In Saudi spat, Canada stumbled onto a strong human rights position. But if Trudeau wants to remain 'firm' on values, the $15-billion arms deal is untenable. Saudi actions against Canadian interests, values and norms cannot be rewarded. If there is to be any coherence in Ottawa's handling of this file, the time has come to stop arms sales to Saudi Arabia."

NDPP

Corbella: Family of Jailed Saudi Blogger Angry Over Trudeau Government Tweets

https://calgaryherald.com/news/national/corbella-family-of-jailed-saudi-...

"Canadian family members of  jailed Saudi blogger Raif Badawi and his sister Samar Badawi, say they are angry over the Twitter comments that have caused diplomatic fallout from Saudi Arabia towards Canada. It's impossible to blame them..."

How very interesting! The above story by Calgary Herald writer Licia Corbella which recorded the Badawi's extreme disappointment and alarm at the actions of the Trudeau government and its averse and harmful effects upon the Saudi dissidents in prison, appears to have been pulled and is no longer available.!!??

josh

Baird continues to peddle the Saudi line.  They get what they paid for.

Pogo Pogo's picture

Assuming a jaded political outlook.  The Liberals picked this squabble (maybe not to this level).  Saudi trade is limited especially when you take the military vehicles out of the mix.  This way they get to look like human rights heroes.  It puts the Conservatives into the corner and throws morcels to the left. Washington is forced to choose and will of course come down on the Saudi side even without the Trump corruption. Because Washington again takes sides against Canada it adds pressure to give Canada something in the tariff and trade negotiations.

josh
Unionist

Unusually solid exposé from CBC's Evan Dyer - especially where he shows Baird to be a hypocrite and liar.

Trudeau government started pressing Saudis to release Badawi long before Twitter flap

6079_Smith_W

@ NDPP

Maybe there was something incorrect in the story, or perhaps it was a political decision by the publisher . It would be nice to find a cached or copied version; I have not yet found one.

But the fact is family members don't make public policy. Raif Badawi's wife has also called for a burqa ban in Ontario. The Canadian government is doing nothing that Amnesty International is not doing, and experience has shown that this kind of attention works better than silence. The Saudi government has hit back at Canada, but is there any indication they have taken it out on the people who are in their custody?

https://globalnews.ca/news/4307779/raif-badawi-wife-ensaf-haidar-burqa-ban/

But it seems to be an opinion Corbella has expressed herself in several recent editorials:

https://calgaryherald.com/author/lcorbella

NDPP

I think Postmedia's decision by to pull Corbella's August 14 column was political. Here are a couple of further examples the internet retains of its existence. For anyone that has access, it may have been printed in either the Calgary Herald or The Province's hardcopy versions.

 

Corbella: Family of Jailed Saudi Blogger Angry at Feds

https://www.latestcanada.com/5848411712/corbella-family-saudi-jailed-blo...

Corbella: Family of Jailed Saudi Blogger Angry Over Trudeau Government Tweets

https://twitter.com/CalvinHelin/status/1029405246341017605

6079_Smith_W

Yet those other editorials are still there. Good idea on the library. When I get back to town I will check it out.

NDPP

Unionist wrote:

Unusually solid exposé from CBC's Evan Dyer - especially where he shows Baird to be a hypocrite and liar.

Trudeau government started pressing Saudis to release Badawi long before Twitter flap

NDPP wrote:

Interesting to see that Irwin Cotler is Badawi's lawyer. How convenient for Ottawa, Israel and Saudi Arabia. Also some excellent comments, of which this is one:

"When you are selling lethal weapons to the internal security forces of and buying oil from the same regime whose human rights you are criticizing you have taken hypocrisy to the next level..."

I agree.

NDPP

The Saudi Attack on Canada is a Political Gift to the Liberals

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-the-saudi-attack-on-cana...

"By being punished by the Saudis for failing to adhere to its tyrannical theocratic values - which can't be defended, in good faith, by any Canadian party - the Liberals now have good reason to place our higher political values above the country's lesser, material ambitions. They no longer have anything to lose."

AI: Canada-Saudi Arabia: Joint Open Letter to Prime Minister Trudeau on Arms Deal Authorization (2016)

https://www.amnesty.ca/news/canada-saudi-arabia-joint-open-letter-prime-...

"We the undersigned wish to express our profound concerns about the issuance of export permits for Canada's multi-billion dollar arms deal with Saudi Arabia, despite the flagrant incompatibilities of this contract with the human rights safeguards of our export controls.

To provide such a large supply of lethal weapons to a regime with such an appalling record of human rights abuses is immoral and unethical. The spirit and letter of both domestic export contracts and international law support this view.  The government has had every opportunity to uphold this position but has chosen not to. We therefore ask the government to rescind the export permits, ensuring that this deal does not go ahead unless and until relevant human rights concerns have been resolved...The $15-billion dollar contract with Saudi Arabia is precisely the type of deal that Canada's export controls are intended to prevent..."

"Confirmed the Saudi prosecution death sentence for the peaceful protester, detained since 2015, Israa Al Ghangham. Israa like many others hasn't committed any capital crimes. In fact, she hasn't committed any crimes but she is being punished for having [a] free voice."

https://twitter.com/alzahermm/status/1029488018304974848

NDPP

Engler: Trudeau's Slavish Support For Saudi Monarchy  

https://buff.ly/2MjyZsw

"Canada is a major arms exporter to the GCC monarchies. Canadian companies and officials sold weapons to monarchies that armed anti-government forces in Syria. If there were a hint of truth to Trudeau's 'feminist', 'human-rights' and 'Canada is back' claims, the Liberals would seize the occasion. But the Saudis are betting Canada backs down. Based on Trudeau's slavish support for the kingdom so far, it is a safe bet."

Boycott Saudi!

[email protected]

NDPP

Houthis: New Child Killing in Yemen 'Disgrace to Saudi, US' 

https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2018/08/16/571317/Yemen-Saudi-Arabia-Saada

"Over the past days, several Yemeni provinces have been witnessing protests against the Saudi regime and its Western partners [THAT'S YOU CANADA!]. The protesters also called on the international community to punish the Saudi-led coalition for its crimes against Yemeni civilians..."

 

Despite the Feud, Canada Remains Complicit in Saudi Arabia's Abuses

https://twitter.com/DavideMastracci/status/1029787924664123393

"Canada shouldn't  be seen as a country daring to take the first step against Saudi Arabia, but rather as a bully's friend who said the wrong thing, and got stomped out as a way of sending a message to onlookers. Even amidst all the grandstanding, government officials haven't mentioned stopping the shipment of vehicles to Saudi Arabia as a possible response.

Until the Canadian government cancels the arms deal with Saudi Arabia - regardless of potential further punishment from the Kingdom, penalties or complaints from industry in Canada - it should be seen as complicit, rather than brave. No praise should be given as this helps whitewash the government's ongoing complicity, and dulls the political need on their end for any genuine response."

Boycott Saudi!

voice of the damned

6079_Smith_W wrote:
Yet those other editorials are still there. Good idea on the library. When I get back to town I will check it out.

I'm thinking I might e-mail Corbella, with a link to this thread, and ask her if she'd care to comment on the reasons for her column's removal.

NDPP

Saudi-Canada Diplomatic Row Obscures Canada's Support For the Deadly War on Yemen

https://therealnews.com/stories/saudi-canada-diplomatic-row-obscures-can...

 Canadian journalist Anthony Fenton explains Canada's extensive arms sales to the Saudi Autocracy.

 

How To Build On the Opportunity For Change Created by the Saudi Arabia Spat

http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/activist-toolkit-blog/2018/08/how-build-...

"How we apply pressure to push for changes..."

6079_Smith_W

@votd

Well considering it was removed(And I presume still gone) you might not get a response.

Another possibility is that drawing in the family might be used against the people in custody. Or perhaps they themselves objected. There are a lot of possibilities we might assume here; hard to say for sure what really happened.

NDPP

"What is remarkable is that Saudi government reaction has allowed Canada to be portrayed as a human rights champion even as it continues to arm Saudi Arabia and thus implicitly accepts human rights violations."

https://twitter.com/anthonyfenton/status/1029972711949447169

Quintessentially Canadian: The Symbolical Solution - Boycott Saudi!

maya.bhullar maya.bhullar's picture

Hi all, rabble just posted this blog on the Activist Toolkit.  http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/activist-toolkit-blog/2018/08/how-build-...  

 

NDPP

maya.bhullar wrote:

Hi all, rabble just posted this blog on the Activist Toolkit.  http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/activist-toolkit-blog/2018/08/how-build-...  

 

NDPP wrote:

Bad link. But previously posted @ #183

NDPP

Those Finger-Wagging Know-It-Alls Who Are Sticking Up For The Saudis

https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/those-finger-wagging-know-it-alls-who-ar...

"...It has been a study in the way Canada's conservative foreign policy establishment - with links to the free-spending arms industry - is able to nudge the national conversation away from one question - should we keep selling armoured personnel carriers to the homicidal Saudi maniacs? - to another - were the Liberals really wise to anger our Saudi friends?"

voice of the damned

Jagmeet Singh, the as-yet unimpressive NDP leader, had the opportunity to draw attention to our arms sales to the Saudis, but instead foolishly called for us to stop buying Saudi oil, earning a dressing down from Alberta Premier Rachel Notley.

If the writer wants us to come down harder on the Saudis, why does he think it was foolish for Singh to recommend we stop buying their oil? Surely that would send the message better than anything else.

And, for the record, Notley razzed Singh not for the suggestion itself, but for the fact that he was making it after having opposed Energy East, which she thinks would have been a good source of non-Saudi oil. In a somewhat more modest venue, I also criticized Singh, for not recommending any possible alternatives to the Saudis.  

NDPP

 So far we've sent no message other than Freeland's tweets. We still buy their oil and sell them weapons. We should do neither. Here's why...

https://twitter.com/Fatikr/status/1029526947733413889

Boycott Saudi!

WWWTT

NDPP wrote:

Those Finger-Wagging Know-It-Alls Who Are Sticking Up For The Saudis

https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/those-finger-wagging-know-it-alls-who-ar...

"...It has been a study in the way Canada's conservative foreign policy establishment - with links to the free-spending arms industry - is able to nudge the national conversation away from one question - should we keep selling armoured personnel carriers to the homicidal Saudi maniacs? - to another - were the Liberals really wise to argue our Saudi friends?"

Grudgingly agreed NDPP

I really thought the liberals wanted to eliminate Saudi oil and replace it with the Canadian brand. But it looks like you were right, the liberals just underestimated the Saudi reaction like the idiots that they are.

bekayne

WWWTT wrote:

But it looks like you were right, the liberals just underestimated the Saudi reaction like the idiots that they are.

If failing to predict the hysterical Saudi freakout makes one an idiot, then everyone outside the Saudi royal family is an idiot.

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
I really thought the liberals wanted to eliminate Saudi oil and replace it with the Canadian brand.

Wouldn't that mean having to somehow move petroleum or petroleum products to different places in Canada?  By pipeline, or rail, or bucket brigade?

Here's a wonderful chance for Canadians to stand up and tell the government, and the world, that they don't want this stinky black stuff any more, domestic or foreign!

Watch for millions of Canadians to convert their SUV into a greenhouse and start cycling to work now.  Sure, they'll get to work all sweaty, 20 minutes late, with chain grease all over the right pantleg of their $600 suit, but it's a small price to pay, and they'll pay it.  Watch and see Canada's committment.

NDPP

Why is Saudi Activist Ensaf Haidar Courting the Israel Lobby?

https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/tamara-nassar/why-saudi-activist-en...

"There is no doubt that Haidar has been a tireless campaigner, gaining international attention for her husband's cause. But in an unusual twist for someone upholding human rights or free expression, Haidar has developed extremely close ties with Canada's pro-Israel and anti-Muslim lobbies..."

No wonder Irwin Cotler is her lawyer.

WWWTT

bekayne wrote:

WWWTT wrote:

But it looks like you were right, the liberals just underestimated the Saudi reaction like the idiots that they are.

If failing to predict the hysterical Saudi freakout makes one an idiot, then everyone outside the Saudi royal family is an idiot.

LOL! Are you for real? Freeland used twitter diplomacy!And as a result got an predictable reaction.

Do you believe that twitter diplomacy is the par for course?

WWWTT

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
I really thought the liberals wanted to eliminate Saudi oil and replace it with the Canadian brand.

Wouldn't that mean having to somehow move petroleum or petroleum products to different places in Canada?  By pipeline, or rail, or bucket brigade?

Here's a wonderful chance for Canadians to stand up and tell the government, and the world, that they don't want this stinky black stuff any more, domestic or foreign!

Watch for millions of Canadians to convert their SUV into a greenhouse and start cycling to work now.  Sure, they'll get to work all sweaty, 20 minutes late, with chain grease all over the right pantleg of their $600 suit, but it's a small price to pay, and they'll pay it.  Watch and see Canada's committment.

LOL! You sound like you're rambling on. I don't know where you're going with this

Mr. Magoo

WWWTT:  are you saying that the Kingdom of Saud lost their shit because the criticism was on Twitter?  That if the Liberals had only bought front page space on Canadian newspapers, it would have been all different?

This was not, in fact, the very first time anyone noticed and called out some "curious discrepancies" in SA's human rights record.

bekayne

Mr. Magoo wrote:

This was not, in fact, the very first time anyone noticed and called out some "curious discrepancies" in SA's human rights record.

And certainly not the first time on twitter.

While other countries held their tongues, Canada has repeatedly spoken up for Raif Badawi. When he was flogged in 2015, then-foreign affairs minister John Baird tweeted a call for clemency. 

https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/those-finger-wagging-know-it-alls-who-ar...

progressive17 progressive17's picture

It's easy! Ship the goo to a tanker in Vancouver, have it sail down and through the Panama Canal, and then up to where the Saudi tankers normally go to feed the Irving refineries etc. in New Brunswick & Quebec. Probably be cheaper than rail.

WWWTT

Actually Mr Magoo I believed that Freeland wanted to draw the Saudi's into some kind of trade war as to cut off Saudi oil. Hence using a course median for sending their message.

If the liberals were serious from the word go, they would have made human rights part of any new trade with Saudia Arabia.

Justin did actually try that with China durring his last failed visit their. And he had a hard learned bitter leson on trying to impose your values on another country. 

So the liberals probably modified their tactic to get the most Canadian exposure. Since Justin keeps allowing Saudi oil to flow into Canada, to me it looks like they f'd up. Or at the least, the liberals are willing to give up Saudi money flowing into Canada (Saudi students) for the sake of the appearance of standing up to Saudia Arabia

progressive17 progressive17's picture

If human rights were part of trade, Canada could not buy anything, considering what Canada does to indigenous people and the working poor.

This talk of human rights is bullshit if we don't do it in our own country.

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