Soldiers And Their Critics et al.

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Tommy_Paine

"Police are used as weapons of the state against the people. We have no need of 100's of masked and heavily armed goons at every peaceful demonstration, reminding us of how we really don't have a right to peaceful protests. The police serve the interests of those with money. I say cut them in half asap. There is No reason police should be ticketing homeless people, or harassing people at protests. Or harassing people through police brutality, crimes against victims, etc. The police literally get away with murder.

I probably wouldn't have a huge problem with the police size as it is now if they were a product of something other than a grade 12 education and 6 months in training how to become assholes to the people you are supposed to protect."

It's hard, but not impossible,  to argue why we need to maintain a large police force when crime stats are so consistently dropping.  I would think the only arguement Police Chiefs have is that the crime stats are dropping because we have such a large police force, and to lay off cops would create crime.

I think there might be a mote of truth to that, but having the baby boomer males move out of the 18-35 year old demographic seems to have played a larger part in crime reduction.  Boomers have grown up, calmed down, and are working for the clampdown. As Joe Strummer might say.

So, you're assesment, Stargazer, is not conflicting with mine, certainly.

 

 

 

Realigned

Tommy that was a great post thank you.  While we may not like it you're right. In orer for Canada to sit at the grown up table we need to bring something TO the table. If you don't mind I would like to save it and reference it in the future.

 

Stargazer, Ive had my fair share of run-ins with asshole cops. From 22 year old guys walking around like they are gun fighters from the wild west with invisible jerry cans under their arms to jerkoffs stopping my wife for trumped up infractions "I could give you a ticket but I Wont today since I'm a nice guy...  Wanna go out sometime?"

Still, get rid of half of the police force? Would you be willing to accept the increased amount of crime that causes?

Would it perhaps be more safer to have police services held more accountable for their actions? Complaints are investigated more agressively and punishments handed out for abuse of power/authority increased.  Or are you saying that you fel police as a whole is just used as a weapon by the government and cutting the police strength in half means the gov't has a reduced amount of ability to impose their will or something?? I can be a double edged sword too though

One example I can think of is if you have a peaceful protest about aborgional rights and there is no police officers there to keep the peace and keep touble makers away. Further more a group of people show up with the intention of disrupting your peaceful protest and causing both mischief and harm.You call the police department and they say sorry our numbers were just cut in half, all of our on duty officers are busy, you're on your own.

Maysie Maysie's picture

Just popping in to add my support to Stargazer's position re the cops.

Realigned, what you're looking at is the "need" for the cops from the position of someone who is supported and believed by the cops, ie a middle class (white) position (whether or not you are either or both of those things). In other words, your position is that the "bad" cops are simply "bad" cops,  there's nothing inherently wrong with the police system itself.

Starazer's, and my, position is that the system of policing the citizenry on behalf of the state and the rich is unlawful, unjust, and biased heavily against anyone not from the middle class and not white. Men of colour and First nations men are treated extremely badly (for these men, class matters, as the further lower on the class scale the worse the treatment by the police, but police regularly harass middle- and upper middle-class MOC and FN men all the time). Don't get me started about how women of colour and First Nations women are treated by the cops.

In a so-called democracy, any system that infringes on the rights of the majority of its citizens is a corrupt system that needs to not receive millions and tens of millions of dollars in increases every year (in the Toronto context anyways).

The crime rate has been decreasing for decades (there are SO many studies to show this. GIYF), at the same time that police budgets increase annually and women's shelters go begging for money. Something's wrong with this picture, very wrong. 

......

Maysie: the babbler formerly known as bigcitygal 

Unionist

Maysie, I admire your valour and patience, but you're talking to someone who believes that there's an inverse relationship between crime rates and numbers of police; that police protect aboriginal rights demonstrators; and that Canada needs a strong military so it can "bring something to the grown-up table".

Is this babble, or elbbab?

Stargazer

I don't believe for a second the line that less police = more crime. I have never seen evidence of this.

My stand is thus:

1) Enforce a complaint procedure that is run by citizens. Police should not be policing themselves. It doesn't work and it isn't democratic

2) Any person wishing to become an officer of the law should have actually studied the law. They should also have to take sociology, anti-racism and criminology classes. This way they may actually have a clue as to why things occur and why they target the people they do. More importantly, they will stop targeting people of colour and the homeless disproportionately. 

3) Community Policing isn't working.  The police won't admit to racism yet it is clear that the vast majority of them are racist. 

4) Make it mandatory that the government implement the recommendations of the many many studies done on police and police abuse of force. 

Police rarely, if ever, protect the rights of the minority. I have no fear of anyone showing up and disrupting a peaceful protest. The police are who I fear at protests. 

If you study the history of policing you will see that the police were, from the beginning, used to defend the property rights of the elite, while the peasants were brutalized by the police.There is no equality in policing.

A visit to the Centre of Criminology library is recommended if you'd like to read about the history of policing and it's roots in defending the elite against the poor. 

 

 

Stargazer

I posted at the same time as maysie and Unionist.

Realigned - exactly what maysie said. 

Tommy_Paine

And it's not just our police, but our courts too.  

"Further more a group of people show up with the intention of disrupting your peaceful protest and causing both mischief and harm."

Um, Realigned, more often than not, those groups who show up with the intention of disrupting a peaceful protest are the police.

Lots of money for agent provocatuers, but none to go after Perdue industries for flooding our communities with oxycontin. 

 

Unionist

Tommy_Paine wrote:

Um, Realigned, more often than not, those groups who show up with the intention of disrupting a peaceful protest are the police.

Umm, Tommy, I think Realigned understands whose side the uniformed armed guys are on when people are fighting for their sovereign rights.

Given that he's one of them.

Realigned

Maysie you nailed it. Middle class white guy quickly approaching the big three zero with some undetectable first nations roots which I'm not only proud of but it gives me a wicked tan in the summer =)

Before I always thought "anti-police" talk like this was bullshit to be honest. People who just didnt like the police or getting tickets or being told they can't do drugs.  I'm looking at it differently now trying to put myself in the shoes of the peoples you mentioned.

A statement like stargazer most cops are racist is pretty big.  To me that means there is something about policing that either attracts racists fromt he onset OR something in their training turns men and women racist. To the latter point I would wonder how coloured police recruits react. Do they 'turn on their own and join the system' or do they quit police trainig or what? I have some friends who are cops (not all white either) and they never mentionedanything when we compad training.

 

Tommy I supose that's true that police can show up at a protest with the intentions of harassing them.  Sometimes though tey get put in shitty spots. Imagine being a police officer and having to defend the saftey and security of a pedophile being released (against people protesting it) or protecting the 'God hates fags' protestors from people.

I dunno. Glad I'm not a police officer.  Oops late for work more later

Jingles

Quote:
Tommy I supose that's true that police can show up at a protest with the intentions of harassing them.  Sometimes though tey get put in shitty spots. Imagine being a police officer and having to defend the saftey and security of a pedophile being released (against people protesting it) or protecting the 'God hates fags' protestors from people.

I see. Protesters are as bad as pedophiles and Phelps. 

Police don't just show up at a protest with the intentions of harassment. They show up with the intent to violently disperse protesters. They show up to prevent people from exercising their rights, and to protect the wealthy and powerful from the inconvenience of the great unwashed. The police use excessive force, agent provocateurs, spys, and surveillance on the orders of their political masters (and their corporate sponsors) to disrupt and destroy people who make the mistake of thinking we are a democratic nation.

But really, you know that already. Your coy innocence isn't convincing. You've made your choice on whose side your on. Next, you'll try to convince us the the Ohio National Guard was firing in self-defense.

Realigned

Jingles wrote:

 

I see. Protesters are as bad as pedophiles and Phelps.

There is more to it than black and grey, good an evil, you're with us or against us.

i was pointing out that police may be called up to defend the rights of an organization in which the believe in, are impartial to or completely against.

Quote:

Police don't just show up at a protest with the intentions of harassment. They show up with the intent to violently disperse protesters. They show up to prevent people from exercising their rights, and to protect the wealthy and powerful from the inconvenience of the great unwashed. The police use excessive force, agent provocateurs, spys, and surveillance on the orders of their political masters (and their corporate sponsors) to disrupt and destroy people who make the mistake of thinking we are a democratic nation.

They also show up to try and get girls numbers and show off their authority 

Quote:
You've made your choice on whose side your on.

I'm on the right side! Just kiding, I'm working on my puns.

Quote:
Next, you'll try to convince us the the Ohio National Guard was firing in self-defense.

You mean there is question that armed soldiers firing M16s into an unarmed crowd can be anything BUT self defense?  Surprised

Realigned

Stargazer,

Quote:

1) Enforce a complaint procedure that is run by citizens. Police should
not be policing themselves. It doesn't work and it isn't democratic

But police offiers ARE citizens. Do you mean a non-law enforcement  agency being in charge of handling police complaints?  If so I agree.

Quote:

2) Any person wishing to become an officer of the law should have
actually studied the law. They should also have to take sociology,
anti-racism and criminology classes. This way they may actually have a
clue as to why things occur and why they target the people they do.
More importantly, they will stop targeting people of colour and the
homeless disproportionately.

Police O study the law, they have to. Do you mean study at university?

I don't think it's up to a police officer to determine why something occurs. I think that's up to the courts to determine.

Quote:

3) Community Policing isn't working.  The police won't admit to
racism yet it is clear that the vast majority of them are racist.

What's comunity policing?

Quote:

4) Make it mandatory that the government implement the
recommendations of the many many studies done on police and police
abuse of force.

Totally agree.

 

Jacob Richter

Why hasn't anybody considered trade union rights for soldiers?

Unionist

Jacob Richter wrote:
Why hasn't anybody considered trade union rights for soldiers?

With people trying to blow them up for visiting their countries uninvited, and with their own children begging Santa to get their parents to quit soldiering, they wouldn't provide a reliable enough source of union dues income.

Stargazer

Should a CEO of a large corporation be the person to conduct an investigation of said corporation? No, they shouldn't. Police should not police themselves. Period. I don't know how much clearer I can get on this.

Police do not study the law. They study what charges to lay as basics. That is the extent of the "law" they are taught. Perhaps some basic rules of evidence things and yes, they absolutely should have to have university or community college in approved sociology 101 and law 101 course, at minimum.

These are the people WITH WEAPONS, who are supposed to protect us and right now they have to pass a physical test and write a psychological test (wherein all those with empathy and traits associated with the left) are weaned out. The test is designed to ensure that cops have the state of mind to enforce sometimes stupid laws, and to deal with poor people and people of colour (FN people as well) as potential suspects. In fact, the police are taught we are all suspects first. The concept of innocent until proven guilty does not exist until the court stage, if even then.

 

And yes, when PoC join the force, they generally do take on the traits of the other white officers. It's join in or be ridiculed. It's called the police culture for a reason. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_policing

 

Manitoba Girl

One thing to keep in mind is that the police are just as much targets as anybody else. In Winnipeg the mostly Aboriginal chronic car thieves have been deliberately driving into cops with sole aim of causing their deaths. Just yesterday a drunk Aboriginal was driving west on an eastbound street and rammed into a car going the opposite direction. It's a war zone here.

Unionist

Manitoba Girl wrote:

One thing to keep in mind is that the police are just as much targets as anybody else. In Winnipeg the mostly Aboriginal chronic car thieves have been deliberately driving into cops with sole aim of causing their deaths. Just yesterday a drunk Aboriginal was driving west on an eastbound street and rammed into a car going the opposite direction. It's a war zone here.

Was there a lot of damage to your vehicle, "girl"?

Can't we Realign "Realigned" into a Manitoba Provincial Reconstruction Team? He can rescue Manitoba "Girl" from the bad Aboriginals!

There's an HBO series in this thread! There's money to be made!

Michelle

Manitoba Girl wrote:

One thing to keep in mind is that the police are just as much targets as anybody else. In Winnipeg the mostly Aboriginal chronic car thieves have been deliberately driving into cops with sole aim of causing their deaths. Just yesterday a drunk Aboriginal was driving west on an eastbound street and rammed into a car going the opposite direction. It's a war zone here.

Where did you get the idea that it was okay to write racist tripe like this on babble?  You've outlived your usefulness on babble, Manitoba Girl.  Bye.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

And what "usefulness" would that be, exactly?

 

[IMG]http://i38.tinypic.com/1r9lpy.gif[/IMG]

Maysie Maysie's picture

Realigned wrote:

with some undetectable first nations roots which I'm not only proud of but it gives me a wicked tan in the summer =)

This kind of statement may go over well in your circles, but it reeks of racism and cultural appropriation, just to name two. Let's not go there, shall we?

Realigned wrote:
 Before I always thought "anti-police" talk like this was bullshit to be honest. People who just didnt like the police or getting tickets or being told they can't do drugs.  I'm looking at it differently now trying to put myself in the shoes of the peoples you mentioned.

Kewl.

Realigned wrote:
 A statement like stargazer most cops are racist is pretty big.  To me that means there is something about policing that either attracts racists fromt he onset OR something in their training turns men and women racist.

Actually, SG is right, and not just about the police. Most white folks are racist no matter what profession they're in. And that's a whole other conversation. Moving past that, as an anti-racist activist, I'm very concerned when white folks, the vast majority of whom are racist, who are trained and paid by the state, receive job training on how to restrain, injure and kill people, receive training on who "matters" and who doesn't (although they probably already "know" this) and then use this violence against society's more marginalized populations. With impunity. There's nothing that a few months of police training can do to instill racist attitudes that are already embedded in Canadian culture and haven't already been internalized by their recruits (and everyone else).

Realigned wrote:
 To the latter point I would wonder how coloured police recruits react.

Similar to your "retard" comment in another thread, I request that you not use the term "coloured" to refer to people of colour. You may not think there's a huge difference between the terms "coloured people" and "people of colour", another fascinating topic that we've discussed on babble many times. You actually have a number of allies for this one, but that would be thread drift. 

 

Realigned wrote:
 Do they 'turn on their own and join the system' or do they quit police trainig or what? I have some friends who are cops (not all white either) and they never mentionedanything when we compad training.

Realigned, there has been tons of documentation about how racist the police system is, from within and without, how all must comply with police culture, regardless of one's connection to maleness and whiteness. GIYF (google is your friend)

............

Maysie: the babbler formerly known as bigcitygal.

Realigned

FN people and those with FN blood (for lack of a better word) in them tend to tan really well.  You call that racist? You're the mod you can call it what you want- me I think it's being over sensitive.  Would it be racist of me to mention that african american soldiers don't apply as much  face camo because they already have brown skin? I figure that's just a plain truth (something I am envious of I'll add) but I have a feeling somehow that can be constrewed as racist.

 

And I use the word coloured in the context that I did because I saw some of your established posters using people of colour and coloured people or somethingto the effect.  I fail to see the difference. Coloured people people of colour. White males males who are white.  I wonder if white people is racist, I've seen use the words white men without mention. Ultimately again, you're the mod. People of colour it is.

Nothing at all wrong with "most white folks are racist" at all Undecided

LeighT

hi folks, not sure what thread to post this under exactly, but following up on the Afghanistan situation, the new governor of Kandahar stated on an interview last week at CBC radio http://www.cbc.ca/clips/mov/wesa-invu081218.mov (about 2/3 of the way along the clip) that CIDA and the federal gov't gave its money to SNC Lavalin to do the work on the Dhala dam in Kandahar province.  as a reminder, here's who's on SNC's board- lots of familiar faces: http://www.snc-lavalin.com/about_board.php?lang=en .

I was drawn to the CBC interview initially because a radio clip included Wesa's catch-all phrase in support of Canada's 'development goals in the pipeline', which can be interpreted in several ways, and he reiterates this same phrase in the beginning of the linked clip above.  Wesa as an agricultural 'expert' also promotes petrol-based chemical fertilizers and pesticides.

So we have the usual story, mega-pipelines, reconstruction of mega-dams, big chem-white ag, propped up by military boots on the ground and in the board rooms.  and small farmers planting roadside bombs beside the pipeline/ highway corridors that bring the troops into their land along with the foreign companies who seek to control the water and other resources of Afghans.

Jacob Richter

Unionist wrote:

Jacob Richter wrote:
Why hasn't anybody considered trade union rights for soldiers?

With people trying to blow them up for visiting their countries uninvited, and with their own children begging Santa to get their parents to quit soldiering, they wouldn't provide a reliable enough source of union dues income.

I was referring more to the right to *strike* than paying union dues:

 http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/625/macnair.htm

Stargazer

No realigned. there is nothing at all with pointing out the fact that most people are racist. Thankfully, Manitoba Girl is gone, but she is the norm.

 

And talking about PoC's as "coloured" people is racist. Frankly, I don't care if you are offended by that or not. Suck it up. us FN people and people of colour have had to deal with racist bullshit since time immoriable. It's time for white people to realize just how much they own this world (in particular white men). I feel no pity about that and that reverse racism crap does not fly here. 

Realigned

So coloured people is racist, but white people aren't. Got it.

Can you link me to the thread explaining that? I'm honestly curious because I just can't wrap my head around it.

Make fun of me all you want, I don't believe "most people are racist" thats a convient excuse.  I'm sure you will chalk it up to army brainwashing but in my group ofcoworkers there are white guys, black guys, native american, asian, chinese, philipeno, theres a mormon, muslim, jewish, people from downtown toronto, people from the country side. An thats only 40 of us. Our colour stops at tan, I feel sorry forany one who believes most people in the world is racist, you need to have a little more faith in your fellow man and woman.

Maysie Maysie's picture

Racism 101 on resistracism blog: http://resistracism.wordpress.com/racism-101/ 

The Art of Defending Racism (please note, this is a sarcastic article) http://community.livejournal.com/sex_and_race/296541.html

Resources for Change: http://www.accesstomedia.org/rfc/

We Heard it Before on resistracism blog: http://resistracism.wordpress.com/we-heard-it-before/

Jane Elliot's Blue Eyes Brown Eyes exercise (thanks to AfroHealer): http://www.janeelliott.com/learningmaterials.htm

There's more where those came from. 

 

Stargazer

As a white man, what would you possibly know about racism? Really? Do you have any idea whatsoever the effects that racism has had on Aboriginal people's? Do you? You cannot possibly have, as a white male, you enjoy the priviledge of being the least discriminated group in the entire freaking world. Not only do white males run almost everything, they whine when they get called out on racism. How quaint.

Papal Bull

Unionist wrote:

Quote:
During the Cold War....the Soviet bombers would sometimes probe Canadian airspace at night.....so CF-188's were fitted with very bright spotlights to permit identification of the bomber at night. Because this was "peace time" probing.......the CDN pilots could fly up....ride along side and flip on the light.....in a time of actual war this tactic might not have been used.

Don't need a military force to do that, any more than we needed military help in boarding the Spanish trawler and arresting its crew. These are patrol and police operations.

Quick question, oh quacky Unionist. How the hell do you expect to train people to fly the military aircraft that are necessary to meet up with other high performance military grade aircraft and perform these things? You sort of need an airforce to train a large pool of skilled pilots.

Refuge Refuge's picture

Maysie wrote:
 Most white folks are racist no matter what profession they're in.

I understand there is a lot of racism but I don't like being called racist just because of the colour of my skin.

martin dufresne

It's more like the amount of relative privilege that our group enjoys - something we CAN do something about.

Unionist

Papal Bull wrote:

Quick question, oh quacky Unionist. How the hell do you expect to train people to fly the military aircraft that are necessary to meet up with other high performance military grade aircraft and perform these things? You sort of need an airforce to train a large pool of skilled pilots.

We don't need an air force, still less a "large pool of skilled pilots", to shine bright lights on aircraft once in 20 or 30 years or so. We didn't need them then. We should not have been then, nor now, part of NORAD. We should not have been in any kind of "war" with the Soviets or anyone else since 1945, hot, cold, or any other temperature.

What we need are specialized forces for police work, civil emergencies, search and rescue, and occasional peacekeeping operations. The money saved from Realigned-style "save the damsel from the Islamists" operations would supplement those needs quite nicely. We could also start concentrating on international alliances for peace (like the U.N.), not war (like NATO and NORAD).

Unionist

Realigned wrote:

Make fun of me all you want,

Have no fear - our sarcasm resistance movement has only begun!!

Loretta

Hi realigned:

You said that you've heard various comments about pervasive racism before and don't really believe them. I hope that you will check out the links that were provided above since they may broaden your understanding of others' experiences and points of view. My sense is that, despite having heard about these viewpoints, you haven't previously done the kind of delving into them that would help shed some understanding and perhaps agreement with them.

Because of my own experience of being immersed in military culture and its attendant acculturation, I know that it can be very hard to break through to a point where other ideas can be heard. I hope that you seriously consider what is being offered to you here -- I would urge you to try to suspend rejection of the ideas as a first response and apply some deep critical thinking about these thoughts, ideas and experiences.

As you are hearing, many people here have different interpretations of their experiences and those they've heard from others. While I didn't always hold this view, I have come to believe the idea of police officers and the military as enforcers for the corporate sector, in our communities and in our world, as quite valid.

I'm very saddened by that because I think that many men and women, regardless of their ethnicity, join both with good intentions but get so shaped by the culture of those environments that critical thinking on any number of issues is absent and certainly frowned upon, when it rears its head.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the matter, having come from places similar to the one in which you find yourself (intellectually, that is).

Realigned

Refuge wrote:
Maysie wrote:
 Most white folks are racist no matter what profession they're in.

 


I understand there is a lot of racism but I don't like being called racist just because of the colour of my skin.

Excatly.

Jingles

When digging a foxhole, it is wise to stop digging when you're in over your head. Otherwise, you'll end up burying yourself.

Realigned

Stargazer wrote:
As a white man, what would you possibly know about racism? Really? Do you have any idea whatsoever the effects that racism has had on Aboriginal people's? Do you? You cannot possibly have, as a white male, you enjoy the priviledge of being the least discriminated group in the entire freaking world. Not only do white males run almost everything, they whine when they get called out on racism. How quaint.

Stargazer I usually like your posts quite a bit but this sounds silly. You're throwing around white males with the same venom Manitoba Girl was throwing around aborigionals. Why is it okay for you?

So to wrap my head around this..  You (and others) basically judging other human beings by the colour of their skin, basically.

And you can't see (or don't care) how someone would conclude that's being racist too? Or the rules are different because it is being addressed to someone who is white. Okay. "You're reverse racisim cries fall on deaf ears here"

I think racisim is racisim but I'm new at this =)   I'll take a look at the links provided above, thanks Malayse (and reply you Loretta) after work.

Tommy_Paine

You could always dig up.

 

 

Maysie Maysie's picture

Once again, for the cheap seats in the back:

From the Angry Black Woman, "Some things You Need To Understand #1" http://theangryblackwoman.com/2006/05/07/some-things-you-need-to-underst... 

Quote:

An ongoing series. Here’s something you need to understand before engaging me in any debate:

Racism = Prejudice + Power

By definition, Blacks and other minorities cannot be racist because they do not have insitutional, systemic power. The term Minority doesn’t even refer to a minority of numbers any more (after all, minorities outnumber whites in many places, now), but instead to a minority of power.

(snip)

Reverse racism does not exist. It just doesn’t. 

From The Angry Black Woman, "Some Things You Need to Understand #4" http://theangryblackwoman.com/2006/09/14/things-you-need-to-understand-4/

Quote:
White Privilege exists whether you know it, acknowledge it, or understand it. Any attempts to convince me that you, a white person, don’t have White Privilege will result in laughter, mockery, and possibly a beat down.

It is a given that, whenever I engage in debate with a white person and mention privilege, the white person in question gets all upset. “I do NOT have privilege!” they say, and then begin to tell the story of their poor, rural upbringing or something. I think this reaction stems from two sources. Firstly, White Liberal Guilt, which I have written about before. Secondly, a misunderstanding of the word ‘Privilege’.

(snip)

What they don’t realize is that economic privilege is only one kind of privilege. When I speak of White Privilege, I am not speaking of economics (though they may come into play based on the individual), I am speaking of unearned advantages one has because one is born White. That’s not the only kind of Privilege there is, of course. Another I’m very familiar with is Heterosexual Privilege. 

 

I'll end my lecture with a link to Tim Wise. He's not an angry black woman, he's a middle class white guy! So he *must* be right! (Actually I love Tim's writing a whole lot, he can reach many people that can't otherwise be reached.)

"White Whine: Reflections on The Brain-Rotting Properties of Privilege" 

http://www.zmag.org/zspace/commentaries/1901 

martin dufresne

"You (and others) basically judging other human beings by the colour of their skin, basically."

That's pretty rich coming from someone who basically guns down Afghan people by the manner of their dress, basically.

Unionist

The new elbbab never fails to bemuse. Is this some kind of thought experiment - pretend someone is just "confused" and see if we can turn around his basic instincts by providing hyperlinks to reading material?

What about that tingling feeling in the back of your spine? Doesn't that count for anything any more?

Jingles

That whole "babe in the woods" act is wearing thin.

Refuge Refuge's picture

I am going to repost a quote from the first thread as we spiral further down......

Quote:
If you do respond to the personal attacks in a similar manner, there is the possibility that you might not be able to continue posting to the site, because the mods might step in on their behalf to quell the disturbance.  It may in fact be the motivation behind the attacks.  Clever aren't they?

Unionist

Yes, I found that post hilarious too - the notion that not being polite to a Canadian soldier in Afghanistan who says he's there to get the "bad guys", a "personal attack". So I'm going to repost a quote from the first thread too:

Quote:

Thousands of brave U.S. citizens evaded the draft or outright deserted
and came to Canada rather than be used as cannon fodder against other
peoples' lives and liberty. If you are what you claim to be (which is
highly doubtful), you should ask yourself why so many others figured
this out but you need to ask for reading material.

In any event, there is not the slightest chance that I will
participate in turning this board into a "win over the soldier to
pacifism" exercise, any more than we will solicit wife-abusers to join
in the hope that we can wean them off their habit. A majority of
Canadians want our troops out.  You enjoy your minority status - you
think you're "helping" the Afghan people - fill your boots. While you
can.

And a reply to Jacob Richter, who said:

Jacob Richter wrote:
I was referring more to the right to *strike* than paying union dues:

My reply is to be found above. Soldiers who volunteer to join the forces (namely, all Canadian soldiers) knowing they will be sent to Afghanistan, do not need the so-called "right" to strike.

They need the integrity and courage to either not enlist in the first place, or else to speak out against injustice, or else to desert - like their thousands of U.S. comrades.

And guess what? I have never witnessed, nor even heard of, ONE SINGLE CANADIAN SOLDIER who either deserted, or at least spoke out publicly against the invasion, occupation, and war crimes committed in Afghanistan.

This is testimony to the low quality of human being being recruited into our military.

 

Realigned

martin dufresne wrote:

"You (and others) basically judging other human beings by the colour of their skin, basically."

That's pretty rich coming from someone who basically guns down Afghan people by the manner of their dress, basically.

How did you get a hold of our rules of engagement??

 

Hi Loretta,

I am checking out the links I'm being given by hte members here. Thank you. I admit it's hard for me to aproach this from a neutral point of view when I hear things like most white people are racist.

Does that mean that most white babble posters are infact racist?  It just surprises me thats all.

The angrey black woman suggests that only white people can be racist however this is what I'm finding on wikipedia.

Quote:
Racism, by its simplest definition, is the belief that race
is the primary determinant of human traits
[IE. most white people are racist]and capacities and that
racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular
race.

That sounds like what you guys call thread drift anyways.  Back more to the nature of the thread, yes I agree the military conditioning does make it hard for many of it's people (especially younger) to be open minded but honestly you'll find the same mentality in people here. "I'm right, if you don't agree with me here is something wrong with you." Some people are so sure they are right they won't even entertain looking atit from another point of view save to simply make sarcasic comments. Do you agree?

I'm really not rejecting any ideas.  Though good ideas + comments like your a murderer get tossed to the back of the que. Some people have really good points but the jabs they feel the need to toss in really ruin it.

Here's a question Loretta. I never thought there was racisim in the Canadian Military. I never saw it. When I went down to Kentucky to train I was blown away by the segrigaion I saw amongst the americans there.  Whe you were in, did you find there was racisim among the soldiers? If so what kinda stuff would you see?

Michelle

Yes, most white babble posters ARE racist.  That's the basic starting point of anti-racism, recognizing that if you grew up white in a white supremacist society, then you are probably racist, whether overtly or in ways you might not recognize yet, whether you mean to be or not.  Getting over the defensiveness about it is the first step towards understanding, and it's one that most of us struggle with.

Slumberjack

Realigned wrote:
I feel sorry for any one who believes most people in the world is racist.

So do I.  It would imply an abysmal lack of knowledge about the world's demographics.  Racism permeates everything in our society.  It is so ingrained as a usual way of behavior that it is rendered largely invisible to those that are not subjected to it.  The ugliness of racism is present even in the most mundane activities of life.  For example, as a white person, I am always afforded the privileged of strolling past the department store bag checkers at the exits without being noticed by the friendly faced elderly white greeters, while the FN and POC shoppers who exit at the same time as I do are called aside to have the contents of their parcels checked against the receipts.  I’ve never been spot-checked because I do not arouse their suspicions.

There are many other examples of everyday life where this sort of thing can be seen.  The reason that you are in Afghanistan is due to racism.  Coveted resources that belong to brown skinned people can be stolen for the use of white western nations, or if resistance is offered, their lives can be taken along with the resources.  Their body counts, great or small, their lives, their right to exist, do not merit the attention of white hegemony’s spokespersons, the media.  We get to see some of them through the propaganda, when benevolent white people step in to help, such as medical people bandaging a kid who was injured by the dastardly Taliban, with no acknowledgement at all given to the fact that we actually caused it by our presence.

I get to see it quite often, whenever my family and I are out and about, or when my kids come home from school with yet another instance of having been singled out of a crowd for a trip to the office.  Still though, I do not experience it, and I never will know what it feels like to receive negative attention due on my skin colour.  From what little I do know of it, the mere act of denying that it exists is in itself a matter of privilege and supremacy, because we retain for ourselves the luxury to plead ignorance, and to indulge ourselves in contradicting the experiences and feelings of those that do know.  Among many uncertainties, it is not clear to me where the line is, between white guilt and awareness, or even if the line exists.  One thing that did become apparent to me through reflection is that those who deploy to other lands with the intent to cause harm to elements of the local population are there at the behest of white supremacy.

Maysie Maysie's picture

Wow, Slumberjack, that post was incredible. Thanks for tying it all together, something that in my obsessive posting of Racism 101 links I was unable to do.

Remember the old GWB joke? "How did our oil get under their sand?" Not so funny.

Loretta

Unionist wrote:

They need the integrity and courage to either not enlist in the first place, or else to speak out against injustice, or else to desert - like their thousands of U.S. comrades.

However, those who have made those choices, got to that place through a series of developments within that made them start to break through the propaganda of war before they were able to take those steps.

It may be that Realigned is not what he is presenting to be and/or it may be that he's not able to get to that same place -- however, engaging with those in a place of privilege who are asking questions isn't a waste of time. First, it may result in openness to new ideas around privilege, propaganda, etc, in that person and second, it may influence/educate others who are reading the threads without anyone even being aware. My view is that if those who are seeking are treated with disdain because they aren't where we are in our conclusions around war, human rights, prejudice, etc, how can we expect people to stay with the new ideas or thoughts long enough to give those concepts that are new to them (at least at deeper levels) credibility within themselves? Also, isn't it likely that, if people who don't think like us are shot down and made unwelcome, the conversations become "preaching to the choir"?

Unionist wrote:

And guess what? I have never witnessed, nor even heard of, ONE SINGLE CANADIAN SOLDIER who either deserted, or at least spoke out publicly against the invasion, occupation, and war crimes committed in Afghanistan.

http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/513548

 

**Edited to respond to Realigned --

Realigned, I was quite young when I was in the military and wasn't looking for examples of racism. To be honest, when I look back, although there were a few people that I knew who were obviously people of colour or those of aboriginal descent, they were vastly in the minority and I was so self-absorbed and unaware of my own privilege, I never gave the question of the experience of those young women and men any serious consideration.

Just following my release from the CF, the whole outcry broke open about RCMP officers who were Sikh being permitted to wear turbans -- Legions were particularly outraged by this decision. I remember thinking how ridiculous their position (the Legions', that is) was and I am in no doubt regarding the high degree of likelihood that Sikh members of the RCMP and the CF suffered a huge backlash to their presence in those organizations during those days.

I can tell you many first-hand experiences and observations about the mysogyny present in the CF then, which has changed shape and perhaps muted but not disappeared from our present day military. As I mentioned in the other thread, those experiences were part of what began to allow me to open my eyes to the dynamics that exist in our societies and our world around inequalities on the basis of ethnicity, sex, gender, orientation, etc.

 

 

Realigned

Wow is right, that was a really great post Slumberjack. To a lesser extent maybe a good exampe is how my wife complains that when I'm not with her shopping she gets treated much differently than when I am with her. Saying she is treated more coldy and standoffish by employees. Same kinda thing? I always thought it was in her head figuring why would someone treat a potential customer differently?

Loretta

Realigned, is your wife of aboriginal descent or a person of colour? If so, it is not "in her head" but racism playing out and, if not, depending on what kind of shops she is frequenting, it could be sexism. I'm thinking of stores that aim their wares at men, traditionally, such as those places that sell car products, or building supply places, etc.

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