Starmer As Labour's leader - what should he do?

316 posts / 0 new
Last post
Ken Burch
NDPP

Peled: 'Sin Begets Sin': The Fall of Jeremy Corbyn Will Be Felt Around the World

https://www.mintpressnews.com/anti-semitism-fall-jeremy-corbyn-will-be-f...

"There can be little doubt that the ousting of Jeremy Corbyn from the UK Labour Party was the result of a well-planned strategy by a coalition of Zionist organizations, which includes the state of Israel's own Ministry of Strategic Affairs.

And while Corbyn is undoubtedly not anti-semitic, nor racist in any way, shape or form, he made one colossal strategic mistake. He did not fight the Zionist propaganda levied against him nor did he fight the outrageous accusations of anti-semitism that were laid upon him and so many other good hard-working anti-racist members of his party..."

 

Ken Burch

NDPP wrote:

Peled: 'Sin Begets Sin': The Fall of Jeremy Corbyn Will Be Felt Around the World

https://www.mintpressnews.com/anti-semitism-fall-jeremy-corbyn-will-be-f...

"There can be little doubt that the ousting of Jeremy Corbyn from the UK Labour Party was the result of a well-planned strategy by a coalition of Zionist organizations, which includes the state of Israel's own Ministry of Strategic Affairs.

And while Corbyn is undoubtedly not anti-semitic, nor racist in any way, shape or form, he made one colossal strategic mistake. He did not fight the Zionist propaganda levied against him nor did he fight the outrageous accusations of anti-semitism that were laid upon him and so many other good hard-working anti-racist members of his party..."

 

True.  Corbyn's greatest flaw was his aversion to conflict.

melovesproles
nicky

Westminster voting intention:

LAB: 40% (+2)
CON: 35% (-3)
LDEM: 7% (+1)

via @YouGov

it sure looks like Labour support is collapsing because of Corbyn's suspension, wouldn't you say Ken?

Mobo2000

Good overview by Jonathan Cooke on the Equalities Commission report:

https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/11/11/the-uk-equalities-commissions-la...

"The corporate media long ago styled Labour staff who delayed the complaints procedure to harm Corbyn as antisemitism “whistleblowers”. Many of them starred in last year’s BBC Panorama programme on Labour in which they claimed they had been hampered from carrying out their work.  The equalities commission’s report subtly contradicts their claims, conceding that progress on handling complaints improved after senior Labour staff hostile to Corbyn – the “whistleblowers” very much among them – were removed from their posts.

Indeed, the report suggests the very opposite of the established media narrative. Corbyn’s team, far from permitting or encouraging delays in resolving antisemitism complaints, too often tried to step in to speed up the process to placate the corporate media and Jewish organisations.  In an example of having your cake and eating it, the commission castigates Corbyn’s staff for doing this, labelling it “political interference” and terming these actions unfair and discriminatory. But the unfairness chiefly relates to those being complained against – those accused of antisemitism – not those doing the complaining.

If Labour had an identifiable problem in relation to antisemitism complaints, according to the report, it seems to have occurred mostly in terms of the party being too hasty and aggressive in tackling allegations of antisemitism, in response to relentless criticism from the media and Jewish organisations, rather than being indulgent of it.  Again, no one in the media, Jewish leadership organisations, or the new Labour leadership wants this finding to be highlighted. So it is being ignored.

josh
Ken Burch

They've just suspended the chair and co secretary of the Bristol West CLP(Constituency Labour Party) simply for allowing a motion calling for Corbyn's reinstatement to be debated and passed.

C'mon nicky, even you can't defend Starmer and the party bureaucracy being THIS obsessed with silencing any dissent regarding his anathemization of Corbyn.  Any decent human being would agree that the "distancing" has gone far enough and that it's time for Starmer to stop treating the Left as either the enemy or intruders.

https://skwawkbox.org/2020/11/13/labour-suspends-chair-co-secretary-of-b...

NDPP

The Targeted Campaign to Topple Jeremy Corbyn

https://youtu.be/KvnlcoYWAmM

"Author and activist, Miko Peled hosts a roundtable discussion with Chris Williamson, Asa Winstanley and Tony Greenstein in the aftermath of Jeremy Corbyn's suspension from UK Labour."

'When it comes to Zionists you can't appease them.' - Tony Greenstein -

Ken Burch

The Labour rank-and-file utterly rejects Starmer's antisocialist, antidemocratic approach in the NEC elections:

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/b/left-wing-labour-slate-records...

nicky

No ken, if you read Labour List or something other than the Morning Tar, Starmer supporters did quite well in the NECelections with Corbyn critic Luke Akehurst topping the vote.

And Starmer continues to do quite nicely:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/16/labour-keir-starmer-party-leader

Ken Burch

Corbyn has just been reinstated as a Labour MP:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-jeremy-corbyn-reinstated...

The worst mistake of the Starmer era has now been reversed- just as the comparable 1950s mistake ofbriefly withdrawing the whip and expelling the great Labour Left MP and creator of the National Health Service Aneurin Bevan over his principled abstention on a vote on which the Labour leadership had whipped MPs to support the creation of the hydrogen bomb for the UK.

Labour needs to go forward now on the following assumptions:

1) That it is simply accepted that all sections of Labour, including the Left, can be assumed to be strongly opposed to AS;

2) That while AS should never happen in the party at all, it happened no more under the previous leader than at any other time;

3) That there is no justification for ever equating criticism of what the Israeli government does to Palestinians with AS, and especially not for ever implying that that Israel as a country or Zionism as a (now permanently right-wing) nationalist ideology are synonymous with Jews or Judaism.

4) That while it is fine for Starmer to create his own identity as leader-in fact, that that is simply to be expected- that Labour cannot unify to win the next election if Starmer spends the whole time between now and the next election building that identity solely on a Kinnock-style war against the Left.

5) That nobody, including Corbyn himself, is arguing that he should be back in the leadership, but instead, that the policies associated with his era, virtually all of which are popular, should be kept and strengthened and that his supporters should be treated as partners in victory rather than the enemy.

6) Labour exists to fight the right and to fight to implement a compelling radical alternative to the status quo- not to return to the useless idea that the best it can do is to be the second, slightly-less-nasty party of the status quo-while being just as much a party of the now-inherently right-wing concepts of military intervention and subservience to the police and to authority-for-authority's sake as the Tories.

 

Ken Burch

Yet, rather than admitting what is needed is Labour unity, Starmer won't let the war against Corbyn and socialism end, and he still refuses to admit that whatever issue there may have been with AS has been dealt with already.

No good can come of this...and I think it's more and more likely that Starmer will end up provoking a broadly-supported challenge to his leadership.  

Why would he rather pour salt in the wound than let it heal?

And why won't he do what he's supposed to be doing and focus solely on fighting the Tories?  

There's no broad sectors of the public that want Starmer to keep this all going.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

Ken Burch wrote:

There's no broad sectors of the public that want Starmer to keep this all going.

Then, logically, one is forced to surmise that Starmer is not concerned about what the public wants, but rather what his masters and future benefactors in the oligarchy want him to do.

Ken Burch

Michael Moriarity wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

There's no broad sectors of the public that want Starmer to keep this all going.

Then, logically, one is forced to surmise that Starmer is not concerned about what the public wants, but rather what his masters and future benefactors in the oligarchy want him to do.

Indeed.  

nicky

No Ken, you are wrong to claim that Corbyn has been readmitted as a Labour MP.

A subcommittee of the NEC has reinstated his party membership. The parliamentary party continues to deny him the whip. Therefore he cannot claim, at least at the moment to be a Labour MP.

Let  us all hope for the sake of the Labour Party that it continues to distance itself from the greatest Tory enabler since Margaret Thatcher.  ( I'm sure you agree with that, don't you?)

nicky

Good for Starmer.

From today's Guardian:

Keir Starmer denies Jeremy Corbyn Labour whip despite end of suspension 

Decision means former leader will not sit as Labour MP and is likely to reignite party row

Heather Stewart and Nazia Parveen

Published: 06:16 Wednesday, 18 November 2020

 

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

nicky, the political personality you most remind me of is Warren Kinsella. He idolized Jean Chretien, avidly supported Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden, and has a huge ego. Your heroes in the British Labour Party are the very ideological twins of Kinsella's north american heroes and you aren't particularly shy about asserting how right you are. Of course, Kinsella is also a successful author and political strategist with much more talent than you, but that's always true when you compare real Liberals to phony social democrats.

nicky

Thanks Michael....I think…

josh

nicky wrote:

No Ken, you are wrong to claim that Corbyn has been readmitted as a Labour MP.

A subcommittee of the NEC has reinstated his party membership. The parliamentary party continues to deny him the whip. Therefore he cannot claim, at least at the moment to be a Labour MP.

Let  us all hope for the sake of the Labour Party that it continues to distance itself from the greatest Tory enabler since Margaret Thatcher.  ( I'm sure you agree with that, don't you?)

Guess you forgot about neo-Thatcherite Tony Blair.  Or maybe you were thinking about Thatvger worshiper Tom Mulcair,

josh

nicky wrote:

Good for Starmer.

From today's Guardian:

Keir Starmer denies Jeremy Corbyn Labour whip despite end of suspension 

Decision means former leader will not sit as Labour MP and is likely to reignite party row

Heather Stewart and Nazia Parveen

Published: 06:16 Wednesday, 18 November 2020

 

As I've said before, if Corbyn and the left don't leave to form a new party, they deserve all the abuse they receive.

Ken Burch

nicky wrote:

No Ken, you are wrong to claim that Corbyn has been readmitted as a Labour MP.

A subcommittee of the NEC has reinstated his party membership. The parliamentary party continues to deny him the whip. Therefore he cannot claim, at least at the moment to be a Labour MP.

Let  us all hope for the sake of the Labour Party that it continues to distance itself from the greatest Tory enabler since Margaret Thatcher.  ( I'm sure you agree with that, don't you?)

Actual Tory enabling would be to go back to "the centre ground"-the centre ground that no longer exists in the UK- since the 2010 and 2015 elections prove that Labour can never win another election on non-radical policies.

Ken Burch

There was distancing enough when Corbyn ceased to be leader.  Labour doesn't need to anathemize him for life to win the next election, and it's not going to be able to offer policies that were different than the Tories-Blair's weren't- if it keeps the anathemization.

Nobody's calling for Corbyn to be leader again...but Labour can't be different from the Tories if it goes back to Blairism.  Nothing Labour could be done in power by any party leader who went back to Blair's pro-slaughter foreign policy-especially in an era where war no longer has any positive use in the world other than protecting one's country's own territory from military invasion.

nicky

I must have missed it. Did Tony Blair on Tom Mulcair deliver Boris J.his thumping majority?

josh

Actually, in Blair's case yes.  "We must destroy this village in order to save it."

In Mulcair's case, no.  But he did deliver Trudeau's.

Ken Burch

This poll shows Keir Starmer...who, remember, leads what is currently the SECOND largest party in the UK in seat count and vote share...as the NINTH most popular politician in theUK.   Among the politicians more popular than Keir- Nicola Sturgeon, the First Minister of Scotland, whose party is working to take Scotland OUT of the UK.

(thought I'd posted the link...have now posted it a few posts down).

NDPP

"They're coming for Starmer and his supporters now..."

https://twitter.com/1swordoftruth/status/1328999394490937344/photo/1

What goes around comes around. Never try to appease Zionists lest you end up on your knees to Israel like UK Labour or the Lib/Cons/NDP/ in Canada.

nicky

What poll is that Ken?
where does Corbyn fall in the list? Number One perhaps?

NDPP

Starmer vs Corbyn: civil war shows EXACTLY why the working class stopped voting for the Labour Party a long time ago.

https://on.rt.com/avd2

"I haven't voted for over 20 years, and this week's Labour turmoil shows why."

Ken Burch

nicky wrote:

What poll is that Ken?
where does Corbyn fall in the list? Number One perhaps?

This one.  I thought I'd posted the link earlier but hadn't.  Apologies:

The most popular politicians & political figures in the UK | Politics | YouGov Ratings

As the link shows, it's a YouGov poll.  In that poll, Starmer isn't even the most popular Labour politician; he runs behind Ed Balls(who lost his seat in parliament years ago and is essentially in retirement)  and Sadiq Khan, who is mayor of London and not available to seek the Labour leadership anytime soon).

Corbyn is at 18%- but that's to be expected for a former party leader who has been subjected to years of unjustified character assassination and slanders...you yourself admit he's not an antisemite, but the BBC, the Guardian, the Tories and the PLP usually don't make that distinction.  And again, Corbyn is not ever going to seek the leadership again, so it's absurd to treat him as a rival and a threat.

The point is, Starmer should not be running behind anybody else in the party in personal popularity.

Look, nicky, it's not about Corbyn returning to the leadership, it's just about not throwing him and the Left totally out of the party.  The man doesn't deserve to be anathemized- he isn't evil. And basically 99.7% or more of his supporters never did anything to deserves being made unwelcome.

 

Ken Burch

Isn't it time, nicky, for Starmer to end the internal war, stop treating Corbyn as the enemy, and focus solely on what he SHOULD be doing:  attacking the Tories and opposing everything they're doing?

It's the Right that's the enemy, not the Left.

JKR

Ken Burch wrote:

This poll shows Keir Starmer...who, remember, leads what is currently the SECOND largest party in the UK in seat count and vote share...as the NINTH most popular politician in theUK.   Among the politicians more popular than Keir- Nicola Sturgeon, the First Minister of Scotland, whose party is working to take Scotland OUT of the UK.

(thought I'd posted the link...have now posted it a few posts down).

... and Corbyn seems to be in 35th place.

Ken Burch

JKR wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

This poll shows Keir Starmer...who, remember, leads what is currently the SECOND largest party in the UK in seat count and vote share...as the NINTH most popular politician in theUK.   Among the politicians more popular than Keir- Nicola Sturgeon, the First Minister of Scotland, whose party is working to take Scotland OUT of the UK.

(thought I'd posted the link...have now posted it a few posts down).

... and Corbyn seems to be in 35th place.

True, but irrelevant.  He's not a potential party leader- and the present leader of the opposition should be able to count on being in at least second place in that poll. Corbyn has the poll ratings a man who has been subjected to a relentless and totally unjustified hate campaign for five years.

It's also devastating for Starmer that only 38% of his party thinks he was right to deny Corbyn the whip- something Starmer didn't actually have the right to do under party rules, since a suspended Labour MP is automatically readmitted to the whip once the suspension is lifted.

Also, several of the unions are in open revolt against what Starmer is doing.

There is a real possibility that Starmer could drive all socialist voters away from voting Labour at the next election.  Since doing so would make a Labour victory impossible- Labour can't win solely on the votes of the quickly-vanishing "centre-left"- Starmer could well go down in history as the destroyer of the party, with Davies, the party general secretary who actually suspended Corbyn as his accomplice.

If he cares about the party he leads, Starmer needs to stop doing all of this.

Ken Burch

The former constituency of Owen Smith, the antisocialist challenger to Corbyn in the 2016 leadership race, has voted to call on Starmer to cut the crap:

Owen Smith’s former CLP passes motion strongly supporting Corbyn – and calls on Starmer/Evans to follow party rules – SKWAWKBOX

nicky

For the sake of the Labour Party Starmer must keep Corbyn in exile until he apologizes for minimizing the anti-Semitism under his warch. Corbyn continues to an embarassment to Labour and the Conservativs' best asset.

Ken Burch

nicky wrote:

For the sake of the Labour Party Starmer must keep Corbyn in exile until he apologizes for minimizing the anti-Semitism under his warch. Corbyn continues to an embarassment to Labour and the Conservativs' best asset.

He didn't minimize it.  He said it was greatly exxaggerated for political gain by the right wing of the party, by the Tories, and by the vast majority of the media.  Under the EHRC's rules, Corbyn had every right to say what he said. 

Starmer's bloodyminded intransigence-and once again, with Corbyn's party membership reinstated, Starmer has no right under current party rules, to deny him the whip- is causing a massive result in the party.  Several unions have demanded he back off on this, clp's are now passing motions calling on Starmer to give this nonsense a rest, and by week the number of clp's doing that will have grown exponentially.

The voters care about what Labour will do if elected, and they want Labour to be radically different than the Tories if it does get into power.  They do not put the anathemization of Corbyn-who did condemn AS and has, in fact fought antisemites all his life, as well as having speeded up the disciplinary proceedings so it would be easier to kick the small number of actual AS offenders out of the party-let's face it, at this point essentially everyone who has been accused has been kicked out, including the ones who were innocent of it like Jackie Walker and Tony Greenstein.

Corbyn never tried to stop any actual antisemites from being suspended and expelled. 

The only resistance Corbyn ever put up was to the idea that criticism of the Israeli government was AS- in truth, it essentially never is, and weirdly enough, Zionism as an ideology is technically in violation of the IHRA, because in postulating the ideas that there is a Jewish race and that Israel exists solely as "A Jewish state", Zionism is making both a racist statement and committing the crime of implying that every Jewish person in the world is somehow responsible for what the Israeli government does- assertions that are not only racist but despicable.

If Starmer keeps this going, he will split the party irrevocably and simply not have enough votes left to get whatever remnant he calls "Labour" after the split elected.

The only people Starmer should be fighting are the Tories.

Ken Burch
Ken Burch
Ken Burch

In this century, it's not possible for a Labour leader to win a general election by going to war against his own rank-and-file.

And Labour didn't win in 1997 because Kinnock and Blair had gone to war against the Labour rank-and-file of THAT century.  Labour won in 1997- and would have won under any leader standing on any manifesto- because the public had moved sharply to the Left after 1992- the polls showed large majorities for solid increases in spending and other traditional Labour policies.

And we've already seen, in 2010 and 2015, when Labour fights elections on just-barely-not-Tory manifestos, so there's no actual electoral argument for moving the party to the no-longer-existing "centre ground".

Ken Burch

If Starmer doesn't stop, both with the persecution of Corbyn and the purges of the left, he'll end up having to stand down in a matter of weeks, at most.

What he's doing might have been acceptable if he had the party in a twenty- or thirty-point lead in the polls, but it's not worth it if all he's managing to do is get them slightly ahead or, more frequently, level-pegging with the Tories at best.

Ken Burch

Keir is starting to lose the unions...something no Labour leader can do and survive:

Labour’s trade union reps seek confirmation that Evans is to admonish Starmer over Corbyn – Union News (union-news.co.uk)

nicky

It is really amazing, Ken, how you can argue that Corbyn's 18% approval rating is better than Starmer's 40%. Did you fail arithmetic in grade school? Or did you study math at Trump University?

Ken Burch

nicky wrote:

It is really amazing, Ken, how you can argue that Corbyn's 18% approval rating is better than Starmer's 40%. Did you fail arithmetic in grade school? Or did you study math at Trump University?

I wasn't making any such argument. 

I noted what Corbyn's approval rating is, and that his particular rating is irrelevant, since Corbyn is not going to seek the Labour leadership again.   Corbyn has the rating, I pointed out, that anyone who'd been subjected to a relentless and totally unjustified four year long hate campaign would have

My point was that the Leader of the Opposition should always be at least the second-most-popular politician in the country and should always be the most popular politician in their own party.  Starmer, after spending months on what has clearly become a deliberate strategy to keep the civil war going in his party rather than choose conciliation and unity, is in ninth place overall and only in third place in his own party-one of the people he loses to, Ed Balls, lost his seat years ago and has no prospects for any sort of political comeback.

That is what matters.

You keep seeing this as Corbyn vs. Starmer.  It has never been that.  Corbyn never sought conflict with Starmer and will never seek the leadership again.  It's just that Corbyn has done nothing to deserve anathemization.

He agreed that the EHRC recommendations be put in place.  Why the hell isn't that enough?

Why should he apologize for making the totally valid observation that, prior to the EHRC, Corbyn's political opponents exaggerated the scale of AS within the party for political reasons- to force Corbyn out of the leadership by falsely discrediting his lifetime antiracist commitment, and to force as many of his supporters out of the party as possible, even though the prohibitive majority of those supporters had done nothing to deserve that treatment other than argue, with a lot of justification, that Labour needed to adopt new policies that would be relevant to the present situation.   And they did that after Labour had lost the previous two elections- both of which it could have won- by being too rigidly centrist (and, with regards to Scotland, too rigidly Unionist and Anglo-supremacist) to win.

If Labour had stayed with the 2010 and 2015 policies, or moved to the right of those policies as it looked like Harriet Harman and most of the PLP were trying to get it to move, it would never have won another election.

The "centre ground" no longer exists in the UK, because the "socially progressive, fiscally conservative, pro-"market values" voter doesn't exist anymore.

 

Ken Burch

The interparty rebellion against Sir Keir continues:

The first motion of 'no confidence' in Sir Keir Starmer passes vote - Labour Heartlands

If what's happening now is what you were hoping Starmer would bring, you were apparently hoping to see Labour destroyed.

nicky

Labour will be truly destroyed if Starmer is forced out by the Corbynites.

I don't think that will happen. The recent leadership vote indicates that most Labour members understand what a disaster Corbyn was and do not want to go down that dismal road again.

And Josh, you are absolutely right that Corbyn  and his little band of loonies should form a new party. That would do wonders in re-establishing Labour as a party of government rather than irrelevance.

And the Corbynites could fight with the Socialist Workers Party over their o.oo1 % of the electorate.

Ken Burch

The way for Starmer to survive is for him to end the war against Corbyn and his supporters and admit the AS issue is put to rest.

He was only elected because he promised to keep Labour socialist, which means keeping the post-2015 policies.  u=

It's absurd for him to think Labour can only win the next election if every vestige of what the party stood for after 2015 is erased and everyone associated with those policies is forced to either recant or be made a pariah.

And again, there are no policies to the right of the post-2015 policies that can possibly be considered Labour.  It can't be Labour to keep rail, electric and water privatized.  It can't be Labour to go back to screaming at Russia for the sake of screaming at Russia-and since the Skripals were not given Novichok-we know that because they're still alive- and since we can't even be sure what they were given was given to them by anyone connected to Russia- it wouldn't have served any purpose or gained any votes for the party for Corbyn to sanctimoniously denounce that country.  And it can't be Labour to go back to the delusion that The Troubles in Northern Ireland were all the IRA's fault, as everyone who denonunced Corbyn for talking with Sinn Fein was demanding.  And it could never be consistent with Labour values to support bombing Syria or bombing Iran, or to support the outdated "special relationship" with the U.S.

 

And there are no votes to be gained by going to the right of those policies- nobody wants Labour to disown the Green New Deal or to back to being "extremely casual" about invading non-Europeacn countries.

Starmer only won by promising not to move to the right of any of those policies.

He has an obligation to keep to that.

And Starmer never needed to anathemize Corbyn.  If he'd left the man and his supporters alone after becoming leader, he wouldn't be facing a growing interparty revolt.

Starmer needs to leave Corbyn and his supporters alone- he needs to focus solely on fighting the Tories.

Nobody out there in the larger electorate wants him to keep the war against the Left going, and if Corbyn's policies really did only have 0.01% support- in reality, the vast majority of Labour supporters want the party to be anti-austerity and antiwar other than defending British soil from external attack- Starmer would face no real opposition in the party to what he is doing.

Corbyn endorsed the findings of the EHRC report and has called for the party to implement them.  That's all Starmer had any right to ask.  He never had the right to expect the man to agree that he and his supporters DESERVED to be treated as though they'd caused a massive increase in AS in the party when they'd done no such thing, and he never deserved to have his lifelong commitment to fighting racism put into question.

Ken Burch
JKR
JKR

https://labour.org.uk/ehrc-report/

Quote:

  • Acknowledge, through its leadership, the effect that political interference has had on the handling of antisemitism complaints and implement clear rules and guidance that prohibit and sanction political interference in the complaints process;
  • Commission and provide education and practical training for all individuals involved in the antisemitism complaints process; and
  • Develop all education and training programmes on antisemitism in consultation with Jewish stakeholders

JKR

Pages