In Terms of Human Rights, Nobody Teaches Anything to Cuba

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It's Me D

Ghislaine wrote:
It is sad that there can be no honest discussion of this country on this board.

There can't? I didn't notice that in the rules...

Since it is permitted, shall we have some honest discussion then?

Ghislaine wrote:
Some socialism! It is dependent on capitalist tourism for survival.

Reading this comment I can't help but ask a few follow-up questions: 1) Is tourism inherently antithetical to socialism? 2) Is socialism impossible in countries without complete resource self-sufficiency? 3) Are you recommending the DPRK model of socialism to Cuba? 4) Or should socialism in Cuba simply be abandoned unless it can be spread to the rest of the world immediately (its not as though they haven't tried)?

KenS wrote:
I wasn't specifically referring to the text of the opening post. If anything I was referring to the title.

Since that interview is conducted by people who themselves have a limited and self serving idea of human rights, its no surprise they ask questions in the most favourable possible manner.

I don't disagree about the interviewer, thats what media is like, be it PRAVDA, FOX, or the BBC... It would be a shame to avoid discussion of the media though, just because this is the case, rather let us just acknowledge it is always the case. As to the title I guess its a little inflamatory for some; I just lifted it from the title of the interview...

KenS wrote:
Party leaders and member will talk endlessly about progress they need to make on human rights.... but only ones they acknowledge as being important or 'relevant to Cuba'.

What country doesn't do this? Canada, the USA, and other Western countries deny a number of positive rights to their citizens despite being party to UN conventions requiring those rights... they simply aren't regarded as "relevant" or "important." I'm still a little confused though, since I have no source for your statement about the talk of "party leaders," which human rights are being dismissed as not "relevant to Cuba"? I know here in Canada that rights such as those to shelter, clean water and food are considered irrelevant but I'm not certain which rights are considered irrelevant in Cuba?

Ghislaine

It's Me D wrote:
Ghislaine wrote:
It is sad that there can be no honest discussion of this country on this board.

There can't? I didn't notice that in the rules...

Since it is permitted, shall we have some honest discussion then?

Ghislaine wrote:
Some socialism! It is dependent on capitalist tourism for survival.

Reading this comment I can't help but ask a few follow-up questions: 1) Is tourism inherently antithetical to socialism? 2) Is socialism impossible in countries without complete resource self-sufficiency? 3) Are you recommending the DPRK model of socialism to Cuba? 4) Or should socialism in Cuba simply be abandoned unless it can be spread to the rest of the world immediately (its not as though they haven't tried)?

 

 In terms of honest discussion, I meant that anytime one speaks a factual statement that negative of Cuba, there is a chorus of voices that accuses one of supporting US Imperialism.

I don't support socialism, so I will be up front about that. I would support a social democratic model.  My question is how can what Cuba has be called socialism if it depends on capitalist tourists to survice? If Canadians and Europeans had the same model and laws as Cuba, (ie not disposible income and not allowed pleasure travel) where would Cuba be? Raul Castro has been making some promissing reforms in terms of recognizing more of rights of Cubans, but there is still a very long way to go.

 It is because Canadians and Europeans have the right to earn and spend disposable income and freely travel when they please that Cuba has such a prosperous tourism industry. I have met a man who escaped from Cuba via a boat and is not a CIA terrorist or paid by the US or anything else. He is simply a man who wanted more personal freedom in his life and he now lives in Canada.  

 

lagatta

Ghislaine, I don't think it is fair to compare the disposable income of Canadians and Western Europeans with the Cuban standard of living. Cuba has a very high rate of "human development" (education, healthcare, income, sexual and racial equality) and an exceptional one for the part of the world it is located in. The initial post was utterly correct about that. This also means less violent crime than in nearby countries such as Haiti, Dominican Republic, Salvador or Nicaragua - where there is a veritable "war on women" of unpunished rapes, beatings and often killings.

I am a socialist, and I think Cuba is most admirable in many ways.

I know lots of people in this neighbourhood from the above countries - alas if they arrived via boat the US would most likely have turned them back or allowed them to die.

Tourism as an income-generating industry is very contradictory indeed, as in a relatively poor country (not just Cuba, all the countries in the region) it inevitably means the sex trade, perhaps drugs, and the development of all kinds of traffics. But no country can live as an island.

That is one of the reasons Cubans may not have access to hotels for tourists from the global North. It pisses Cubans off (they might not be able to afford the hotel room, but they would enjoy splurging on a drink at the bar, and dancing). But the sex trade, often involving teens of both sexes, bothers them more.

One development that I see as most positive for Cuba and for human rights (in the political and free-speech sense) is the growing ties with other progressive governments in Latin America. This doesn't just give Cuba access to petroleum from Venezuela and foodstuffs from Ecuador and Bolivia, and those countries access to Cuban healthcare professionals and other technicians, it also opens up eyes and perspectives in both directions. So Cubans to enjoy more access to internet and different press sources, but they also see deeply unequal societies that are often violent ones as well, for this reason.

I pretty much agree with Ken on this thread - Western governments, and in particular the US government which not only has maintained a punishing embargo for decades but also carrying out gross human rights right on the island, at Guantanamo, have no business lecturing Cuba. But the Cuban government uses this hypocrisy to wave off criticism from leftists and human rights activists who are not in the pay of imperialist powers.

Unionist

It's Me D, thank you for your very thoughtful post in reply to Ghislaine.

kropotkin1951

Ghislaine I find it mildly amusing that you would be honest in saying that you don't believe in socialism but then you tell people who do how it must be defined.  The biggest market in the world is closed to the productive capabilities of socialist enterprise.  Imperialists work hard to destroy any glimmer of socialism that appears. Instead of preaching about those terrible Cubans why don't you talk about ending the blockade and normalizing trade. There is a context to Cuba and that is a context of perpetual war by the largest military power this planet has ever spawned. Besides prior to 1959 the main industry in Cuba was mafia controlled tourism.  If the imperialists win and the socialist government is defeated the people of Cuba will not see an improvement in their lives.  

The war on terror has seen my country enact fascist style legislation limiting the basic habeas corpus rights that underpin all our rights as citizens in a parliamentary democracy because we MIGHT be the subject of a terrorist attack. I like to put governmental action into the context of the global village but starting with how my country does on the same issues. 

As for old bolsehie trollie tell me why compare the poverty in Cuba to Honduras? Seems to me how it compares to life on First Nations territory in Canada both rural and urban would be a better thing for a Canadian to look at. Otherwise you are merely showing a superiority complex consistent with a true believer in the benefits of being part of the empire. 

So to both of you I ask, Cuba has been at war with a superpower for 50 years what's our excuse?

old_bolshie

Quote:
The CIA has coveted Cuba for decades and would like very much to use Cuba as a conduit for running illicit drugs to the U.S. ......

ROTFLMFAO!!!!

Fidel

Caissa wrote:
There is no justification for Cuba retaining the death penalty just like there is no justification for the US retaining the death penalty.

There is no justification for the conveyer belts of death in Texas and Florida and Mississippi and Alabama etc etc no. Cuba does not compare with the U.S. in terms of state-sponsored executions.

Cuba does not compare to the U.S. at all in terms of gulag population. The U.S. incarcerates more of its citizens than any other country in the world.

In fact, the U.S. maintains the largest gulag population on the island of Cuba at Guantanamo where torture and basic human rights abuses are the way.

Cuban's economic despair doesnt even compare with those Central American shitholes just a few day's drive from Crazy George Bush's Texas.

Cuba lost its ability for two-way trade with its largest and most natural geographic trade partner after the revolution. Imagine that Newfoundland or PEI or Vancouver Island was cutoff from exporting anything to Canada and having to import everything from other countries at a high premium.  

Caissa

I repeat: there is no justification for retaining the death penalty in Cuba. Let me draw the circle wider: there is no justification for retaining the death penalty on Earth.

Fidel, YMMV.

Fidel

I refuse to equate the vast human rights abuses in the USSA and its client states with anything that occurs in Cuba. Kids go to school all day in Cuba. That isnt true of all El Salvadoran or Guatemalan or Honduran children. Cuba does not have right-wing death squads trained at the infamous Skool of the Americas. Cuba is not a U.S.-sponsored shithole that Haiti is or Dominican Republic or Colombia, Mexico or Peru.

And I dont appreciate being referred to as a Stalinist in the way that Trotskyites bandy that term about in condemning every revolution as imperfect except for that one which will never happen.

lagatta

Nobody was equating anything. Except for the resident trolls, I'm sure everyone on this board, or at least on this thread, condemns the US prison industry, imperialism and the evils it causes.

That is no excuse for the death penalty, anywhere.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Quote:
One of the most striking aspects of the anti-Castro criticisms is that they are frequently made by people who have never been to Cuba and have never talked to a substantial number of Cubans to learn more about day-to-day life in the country. Such critics tend to cite some human rights report as evidence that living in Cuba is tantamount to living in hell. It is true that certain people were imprisoned for trying to incite various individuals to overthrow the Cuban government; these people were normally being paid by organizations that were bent on bringing down the socialist administration. I believe that if the authorities in any part of the world discover that there are individuals who are being funded to engage in activities aimed at sabotaging a government’s work, the detention of such people is to be expected.

When discussing democracy and human rights, I have often argued that these issues cannot be analysed in a vacuum. The freedom of speech, to focus on one example, is never absolute. In some countries, if a person denies the occurrence of the Jewish holocaust, this is considered as a crime and legal action is taken against such an individual. In the US, if a person commits certain deeds, he/she loses the right to life given that the death penalty still exists in several states. In order to safeguard the interests of the prevalent sectors of a particular society, a number of rights are always restricted or denied.

Contrary to the lies spewed by many capitalists, Castro’s government was never a personal dictatorship. Indeed, when asked about the latter issue, Fidel said that Cuba has a dictatorship of the proletariat; not a one-man dictatorship. Quite understandably, this point is usually ignored by the Castro critics. In their attempts to demonise Fidel, most of them prefer to keep on saying that he is a mad dictator.

Once the masses have approved the dictatorship of the proletariat as the best way forward to construct a socialist society that wants to march onwards towards Communism, it is important to defend the gains made by the proletariat. History is rich with examples of how the capitalist class in various societies has always done its utmost to regain control whenever it was temporarily kept at bay. The brutal actions of the capitalist class to regain power were witnessed in Cuba ever since Castro came to power, in Guatemala in the 1950s, in Chile in 1973, and in Nicaragua during the 1980s. The gains of the working class are invariably reversed as long as the capitalist class is allowed to prosper.

There are many ways in which the gains of the working class can be safeguarded. Many Castro critics say that he sentenced many people who disagreed with him to death. To my knowledge, Castro has never condemned anyone to death simply because that person had different political beliefs. Virtually all the individuals who were shot during the period following the 1959 Revolution were former members of the Batista regime who had been involved in the torture and execution of countless Cubans. Trials were held for such individuals and many were condemned to death for their crimes. As in many other countries during the 1960s, the death penalty was still widely popular as a means of dealing with certain criminals in Cuba.

Since those days, as a result of massive changes in the way of thinking about crime and criminals, several countries have abolished the death penalty. Even in Cuba, Castro himself has encouraged attempts to find better alternatives to the death penalty. Of course, since this does not appeal to the Castro critics, it is never mentioned; depicting Fidel as a bloodthirsty man is more effective when trying to demonise him!

In most capitalist media reports about Cuba, a lot of attention is devoted to the Cubans who have risked their lives to get to the US. Sadly, such reports usually fail to dwell on the free education, health care, and housing that is available to the Cuban people; they prefer to focus on the relatively small number of Cubans who have attempted to get to the US after being seduced by the capitalist propaganda associated with the American Dream. These reports also normally avoid mentioning the fact that following several campaigns to indoctrinate various Cubans that the US is an earthly paradise, the ones who manage to land on US soil are able to apply for residency in the country. With so many people around the world being brainwashed that the US is a perfect country, I am not surprised by the fact that several individuals are seduced by such propaganda and risk their lives to go to live there. Mexico is a capitalist country; why is nobody advocating a change of government and calling the Mexican President an evil leader as thousands of Mexicans risk their lives every year to cross the US-Mexican border?

[url=http://reflectionsofaworldcitizen.blogspot.com/2008/02/fidel-castro-brie...

As René Magritte would say, "This is not a tag line". Only he'd say it in French. You may find it rather annoying to have to discipline yourself to ignore parts of certain other people's posts - but not everyone's. Wouldn't it be better to abolish them?

lagatta

Off-topic, but I sure advocate a change in government in Mexico, to the ELECTED president, Andrés Manuel López Obrador, not Calderón who stole the election à la Dubya!

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

KenS wrote:

My comment stands as is: a general point about what you hear when the leaders of Cuba respond to tougher questions from progressives who distance themselves from the self serving way the human rights hammer is used on Cuba, and who acknowledge what Cuba has achieved.

Hence my saying that the Communist Party uses the transparently political nature of most attacks on their human rights record as a cover for acting as if it NO ONE- Cuban as well as foreign- has anything to say about human rights that they should listen to.

Only someone who is completely unfamiliar with what is happening in Cuba and how the Cuban leaders actually respond to these criticisms could make statements like that.

In an interview following the executions of three hijackers in 2003 (the only executions carried out in the last 8 years in Cuba) Fidel Castro made it clear that the Cubans keep the death penalty on the books only as a matter of self defence of the revolution, and that they look forward to the day when they can abolish it. Here's an excerpt:

Quote:
We totally respect the opinions of those people who for religious, philosophical, or humanitarian reasons oppose the death penalty. We Cuban revolutionaries also abhor it, for reasons more profound than those that have been dealt with by the social sciences on crime, under study today in our country. The day will come when we'll be able to accede to the desire of all those friends, you among them, who advise us to do away with capital punishment. I should say that we have suffered, in particular, because we haven't been able to respond positively to the noble intervention of Pope John Paul II [on the subject of capital punishment]...

He knew perfectly well that this is not a problem between Cubans; it's a problem between the people of Cuba and the government of the United States. Not even Christ, who flogged the money-lenders out of the temple, would deny the right of a people to defend itself.

Fidel Castro - My Life 

As René Magritte would say, "This is not a tag line". Only he'd say it in French. You may find it rather annoying to have to discipline yourself to ignore parts of certain other people's posts - but not everyone's. Wouldn't it be better to abolish them?

Slumberjack

Interesting…. death penalty ‘apologentsia.’

Manitoba Girl

Look, his (and by association your) entire argument boils down to "capital punishment is aceptable so long as it's only used against enemies of the state".

Very progressive - not!

Manitoba Girl

I think there should be a policy on this board that support for capital punishment will not be tolerated, similar to the prohibition against taking away a woman's choice. A warning and then banning.

How can anyone who considers themselves progressive support the death penalty... It's like supporting slavery, or state torture.

 Sheesh.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

I think there should be a policy on this board of banning all ignorant right-wing twits who pose as "progressives" while equating third-world countries that are trying to get out from under the yoke of imperialism with the countries that oppress them.

As René Magritte would say, "This is not a tag line". Only he'd say it in French. You may find it rather annoying to have to discipline yourself to ignore parts of certain other people's posts - but not everyone's. Wouldn't it be better to abolish them?

Manitoba Girl

M. Spector wrote:

I think there should be a policy on this board of banning all ignorant right-wing twits who pose as "progressives" while equating third-world countries that are trying to get out from under the yoke of imperialism with the countries that oppress them.

You're just a fucking peice of shit for supporting the death penalty.

And you know what, go fucking whine to the mods that I called you a fucking piece of shit.

And mods, you want to ban me because I called a supporter of the death penalty a fucking piece of shit, that will say more about you than me...

 

Unionist

Since when did the death penalty become an issue of fundamental human rights?

Those who are so high and mighty about it should look to their own country first - before engaging in transparent and disgusting Cuba-bashing:

- Amend the Charter so that the death penalty cannot be reintroduced by some simple act of Parliament.

- Reverse the Harper government new policy of letting Canadian citizens be executed by the U.S. and other "democracies" without protest.

- If you don't want to be outed as an anti-Cuba hypocritical propagandist, make sure to hurl equal levels of invective against the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment#Global_distribution]103 other countries[/url] that still have the death penalty on their books.

Slumberjack

Manitoba Girl wrote:
You're just a fucking peice of shit for supporting the death penalty. And you know what, go fucking whine to the mods that I called you a fucking piece of shit. And mods, you want to ban me because I called a supporter of the death penalty a fucking piece of shit, that will say more about you than me...

Calm yourself, please, some decorum if you will.  Now it does mention something or another about discussion of human rights from a progressive standpoint somewhere in the policy.  Although not specifically mentioned, support for the death penalty wouldn't appear to be inclusive as a progressive dialogue on human rights, at least not on the surface.  Unless of course it involves discussion of state sanctioned death being seen as necessary in defence of socialist revolutions or something.  In the absence explicit delineation, the concepts become so perplexing, at least to some apparently.

Manitoba Girl

Unionist wrote:

 If you don't want to be outed as an anti-Cuba hypocritical propagandist, make sure to hurl equal levels of invective against the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment#Global_distribution]103 other countries[/url] that still have the death penalty on their books.

Thread Title: In Terms of Human Rights, Nobody Teaches Anything to Cuba.

Cuba has the death penalty.

Cuba in fact has much to learn from others.

If you don't want to discuss Cuba's death penalty, then don't start threads that are blatantly false... I mean it's not as if people just woke up one morning and decided that it would be fun to dis Cuba.

Slumberjack

Unionist wrote:
- If you don't want to be outed as an anti-Cuba hypocritical propagandist, make sure to hurl equal levels of invective against the 103 other countries that still have the death penalty on their books.

Feel free to open up a thread on any of those other countries, and we get right to it.  Last time I checked, I saw only one country mentioned in the thread title.

Slumberjack

M. Spector wrote:

I think there should be a policy on this board of banning all ignorant right-wing twits who pose as "progressives" while equating third-world countries that are trying to get out from under the yoke of imperialism with the countries that oppress them.

Nice attempt to silence people who oppose the death penalty everywhere for any reason.  I suppose the requirement to string someone up by a rope is all just a matter of context.

Unionist

The thread title says we have nothing to teach Cuba about human rights.

My view is that it is hypocritical to criticize Cuba (of all countries - hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I wonder why) on the death penalty when we - you - and I - still allow Canadians to be executed by proxy by a neighbouring country.

It is hypocritical - nay, repugnant - to criticize Cuba for executing its own citizens when our largest media euphorically report on Canadians slaughtering large numbers of Afghans, describing this as a victory.

We have nothing to teach Cuba about human rights. We have much to learn.

Slumberjack wrote:
Nice attempt to silence people who oppose the death penalty everywhere
for any reason.  I suppose the requirement to string someone up by a
rope is all just a matter of context.

Context... What a laugh. Dress up in a uniform, fly to Kandahar, start strutting around like a peacock, then use tanks, assault weapons, and air strikes to kill large numbers of citizens of that foreign country - that context is fine, isn't it. That's not the death penalty.

Oh no.

That's "self-defence".

Hypocrisy and sophistry.

Merowe

touche!

Merowe

(no accent thingie on this keyboard...)

 

Manitoba Girl

Unionist wrote:

The thread title says we have nothing to teach Cuba about human rights.

My view is that it is hypocritical to criticize Cuba (of all countries - hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I wonder why) on the death penalty when we - you - and I - still allow Canadians to be executed by proxy by a neighbouring country.

It is hypocritical - nay, repugnant - to criticize Cuba for executing its own citizens when our largest media euphorically report on Canadians slaughtering large numbers of Afghans, describing this as a victory.

We have nothing to teach Cuba about human rights. We have much to learn.

Slumberjack wrote:
Nice attempt to silence people who oppose the death penalty everywhere for any reason.  I suppose the requirement to string someone up by a rope is all just a matter of context.

Context... What a laugh. Dress up in a uniform, fly to Kandahar, start strutting around like a peacock, then use tanks, assault weapons, and air strikes to kill large numbers of citizens of that foreign country - that context is fine, isn't it. That's not the death penalty.

Oh no.

That's "self-defence".

Hypocrisy and sophistry.

 

It's hypocrisy only if a person has two standards, one for Cuba (or any other other place) and one for everyone else. True progressives have only one standard: No death penalty anywhere. Focus on the anywhere part, please.

Slumberjack

It isn't hypocritical to criticize Cuba for maintaining a sanction that progressives everywhere should be against no matter where it is occurring.  There have been more than a few threads against the death penalty jurisdictions in the US and elsewhere, and we've all joined in on those from time to time.  My view is that it is hypocritical to support exceptionalism in any circumstance.  To me the difficulty lies in trying to determine which is worse; an elected official who determines the circumstances while being influenced by tenure of office considerations, or an un-elected official.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Slumberjack wrote:

Nice attempt to silence people who oppose the death penalty everywhere for any reason.

I was responding in kind to a self-righteous twit who wanted to silence me for defending the Cuban revolution.

-----

Here's an excerpt from the [url=http://www.iacenter.org/Cuba/cuban_women03.htm]statement of the Federation of Cuban Women, May 2003[/url]

Quote:
The women of the world know that North American imperialism has always had its intention to destroy our Revolution. You can today see that the possibility of a direct attack is more tangible. It is paradox and absurd that while we have been victims for more than 40 years of all forms of terrorism, coming from their center in Miami, we are today included in the North American list of those accused of being dangerous terrorists.

Our Government has had to adopt painful measures in an act of legitimate defense in the face of the kidnapping of a passenger's ship, a terrorist attempt stimulated by the government of the United States, which encourages the common potential delinquents to assaults ships or planes, with passengers inside, many of whom are children. This unleashed a wave of kidnappings, which was underway, which had to be detained. The women of Cuba do not vacillate in supporting these measures, although they may seem unpleasant to us, because it is not only a matter of guarantying the life of innocent hostages, but the life of the entire people, of the integrity of the sovereignty of the nation.

We could not but acknowledge that the North American State Department has expressed that such acts, similar to the ones that took place, which they have constantly provoked, could constitute a danger for its security. For us it it's a vile lie with which they pretend to justify a brutal aggression against our country.

We know that confusion exists abroad due to the perverse manipulation of these events. We know that some women's organizations of other countries have also had concern in the face of the sentencing to the death penalty of three terrorist kidnappers, of the above mentioned ship. As givers of life, we, the women of Cuba, do not advocate for the death penalty, but through these long years we have been shaken over and over again by the unjust deaths of girls and boys, of youths that succumbed due to the irresponsible, unreflective attitude of those that were tempted by the chants of mermaids of the Cuban Adjustment Act. This law is the legitimization of the North American Government to a rewarded migration which has an exclusive treatment among the migrants, because any Cuban man or woman that arrives to its shores, by means of an illegal manner, is given the category of a political exile.  

We are not talking now about persons without a sense of reasoning and responsibility, but of delinquents, of terrorists, of kidnappers, of mercenaries that sell themselves to the interventionist purposes of a foreign power. This is why, although we feel the sorrow for the death of any human being, we understand, as necessary, the drastic sanction which will be able to prevent others from launching themselves to these lethal adventures, which will deepen the grave situation that is taking place. It is a case of life or death and we decidedly support the measures taken by our Government. These were not improvised, there was no double standard act, and the legal precepts were put into practice. An end was put to these vandalistic terrorists acts that took place during the war of the U.S. against Iraq and which constituted a serious danger to our national security.

The women of Cuba make this assessment and interpretation of the danger of the current moment for our country, based on such acute realities, on concrete facts, on the deliberate plans by North American imperialism, in events that have taken place for more than four decades due to the painful losses of children and their mothers, of elderly people, in the waters of the Straight of Florida: in the political discourse of the most reactionary people that govern, which openly uncover the objectives of the clear strategy of erasing Cuba from the face of the world. This is because the Cubans have had the audacity of creating a better world to which the citizens of many countries of the world aspire to.

As René Magritte would say, "This is not a tag line". Only he'd say it in French. You may find it rather annoying to have to discipline yourself to ignore parts of certain other people's posts - but not everyone's. Wouldn't it be better to abolish them?

Slumberjack

Unionist wrote:
Context... What a laugh. Dress up in a uniform, fly to Kandahar, start strutting around like a peacock, then use tanks, assault weapons, and air strikes to kill large numbers of citizens of that foreign country - that context is fine, isn't it. That's not the death penalty. Oh no.

That's "self-defence". Hypocrisy and sophistry.

Start a thread about peacocks strutting around in uniform killing the citizens of Khandhar, and we'll be right along.  I assure you, I don't believe it is fine either.  The question is a simple one really, requiring a straightforward answer, and then we can move along to the next atrocity and condemn it equally.  Is capital punishment in Cuba justified, or not?

Slumberjack

M. Spector wrote:
I was responding in kind to a self-righteous twit who wanted to silence me for defending the Cuban revolution.

I understand the underlying context of the extract you posted.  However, I also see that those justifications for the extermination of a human being, however repugnant those individuals may very well be, could have also come from the Texas State Correctional Services with some slight editing work.

Fidel

Slumberjack wrote:
Unionist wrote:
Context... What a laugh. Dress up in a uniform, fly to Kandahar, start strutting around like a peacock, then use tanks, assault weapons, and air strikes to kill large numbers of citizens of that foreign country - that context is fine, isn't it. That's not the death penalty. Oh no.

That's "self-defence". Hypocrisy and sophistry.

Start a thread about peacocks strutting around in uniform killing the citizens of Khandhar, and we'll be right along.  I assure you, I don't believe it is fine either.  The question is a simple one really, requiring a straightforward answer, and then we can move along to the next atrocity and condemn it equally.  Is capital punishment in Cuba justified, or not?

We're talking about an island nation under siege since the 1960's. Since 1991 and Cuba's loss of its largest trade partners, the COMECON block of nations, Cuba has experienced difficulties importing things that just arent possible or feasible to manufacture on the island. 

In addition to the genocidal trade sanctions waged against Cuba by the most influential national security state 90 miles north, Cubans have endured countless attempts by the CIA and Cuban mafia and right-wing terrorist groups based in Florida and operating around the Caribbean, to assassinate Cubans, Fidel himself over 600 times, as well as terrorist assaults on various Cuban infrastructure. The bastards have set off bombs in Cuban hotels in an attempt to cripple tourism to the island.

Cuba is rarely discussed among authorities on Latin America without reference to the 800 pound gorilla, that vicious empire influencing trade and politics in and around the "backyard" wrt age old Monroe Doctrine and U.S. aggression in general since the end of cold war. A number of countries have been threatened with U.S. military aggression since the end of cold war. Millions have died at the hands of U.S. military and NATO since just the 1990's. The threat is real for countries on Uncle Sam's hit list. Cuba also has a right to defend its sovereign interests in any and all ways they see fit, which has to include harsh penalties for violent terrorist acts like hijacking passenger planes and boats and taking them to the U.S. where they are welcomed with open arms by U.S. officials. One might think that hijacking passenger planes and violent terrorism in general would be outlawed in the U.S. and especially since 9-11.

Manitoba Girl

Fidel, how does murdering another human being advance a society?

Fidel

Manitoba Girl wrote:

Fidel, how does murdering another human being advance a society?

Ask the Gusanos and CIA sponsored terrorist groups based out of Miami who have murdered at least as many Cubans since the revolution as those who died in the trade towers on 9-11.  

Unionist

Slumberjack wrote:

The question is a simple one really, requiring a straightforward answer, and then we can move along to the next atrocity and condemn it equally.  Is capital punishment in Cuba justified, or not?

The simple answer is: It is the business of the Cuban people. It is none of your business whatsoever.

Once you make it your business - like whether women should have the right to be educated in Afghanistan or not - then your armed Crusaders follow, to teach the heathen the ways of their superiors.

The Cuban people will decide. They have survived almost 50 years in the face of the hypocritical murderers who preach "democracy" at them. They will survive some more.

kropotkin1951

So point taken Manitoba, the only thing that Canada has to teach Cuba about human rights is the abolition of the death penalty. Its good you can feel so strongly about the death penalty.

The opening article though was not about the death penalty it was about the struggle for fair press in our media and the constant propaganda war against the revolution. The article talks abou the American aggression and the covert subversion, what to you think about that aspect of the article? 

I wonder about your instant invocation of the death penalty without any comment on how difficult it has been for the Cubans to fight against the 50 year unjust war since that is after all what this thread was started about.

Manitoba Girl

kropotkin1951 wrote:

So point taken Manitoba, the only thing that Canada has to teach Cuba about human rights is the abolition of the death penalty.

Well. that's not the only thing Canada could teach Cuba about human rights.

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

While we're all on the subject of human rights, read THIS. And what's Canada doing in Haiti? I'm sure its both human and right by virtue of might.

old_bolshie

The assertion by some here that Cuba is somehow under seige-and has been so for umpteen decades-is nonsense.

 Planes fly over Cuba hourly and air transit rights are one of the Cuban Govts major sources of revenue.

Defending Govt sanctioned murder?

 Sad, sad, sad......

Manitoba Girl

"The assertion by some here that Cuba is somehow under seige-and has been so for umpteen decades-is nonsense. "

 

Piss off. There's no doubt that the USA has been trying for decades to end Cuba's dictatorship. Something about Bay of Pigs and a trade embargo. You may have heard about it.

That doesn't give them reason to murder their own people though, as some on this thread would have you believe.

Unionist

The notion that Cuba needs defending against these asinine hypocritical charges is rather amusing. Cuba has survived worse attacks and more clever enemies than these.

Doug

Unionist wrote:

The simple answer is: It is the business of the Cuban people. It is none of your business whatsoever.

 

Lame. Even though it would be wrong to force Cuba to change its law, we can still have an opinion on it.

old_bolshie

Quote:
Piss off. There's no doubt that the USA has been trying for decades to end Cuba's dictatorship. Something about Bay of Pigs and a trade embargo. You may have heard about it.

 

Thanks for the kind words nice to know it's not just people who support murder whom you abuse.

 

The Bahia de Cochinos was before many here were born and if the CIA wanted to plug Castro they would have done it long long ago-Cuba is a relatively  small place with few good hiding spots-I know I've cycled over a lot of it.

 

Remember how quickly the USA took out Noriega, and how rapidly the Govt of Grenada was taken down? 

Unionist

Doug wrote:

Unionist wrote:

The simple answer is: It is the business of the Cuban people. It is none of your business whatsoever.

 

Lame. Even though it would be wrong to force Cuba to change its law, we can still have an opinion on it.

I agree. And my opinion is that it's the sovereign business of the Cuban people to decide that issue. That's also the opinion of the United Nations, which tolerates 104 member countries that have capital punishment on the books. I'm sure you'll respect my opinion as I do yours.

Some people in this thread, on the other hand, are saying that either you oppose Cuba's policy and law, or you have no business being on a progressive board. Those who say this have sinister motives. But they are also hugely hilarious. My personal theory is that some of their friends or ancestors bit the biscuit at the Bay of Pigs, and they're still stewing over it.

Fidel

Manitoba Girl wrote:

"The assertion by some here that Cuba is somehow under seige-and has been so for umpteen decades-is nonsense. "

 

Piss off. There's no doubt that the USA has been trying for decades to end Cuba's dictatorship. Something about Bay of Pigs and a trade embargo. You may have heard about it. 

You're a despicable troll. Fidel did agree to U.S. managed elections in Cuba in 1958, but the CIA-Gusano led military attack on Cuba was viewed by Cubans as a signifcant a betrayal of democracy by the U.S. The vicious empire and its CIA-sponsored terrorists have murdered far more Cubans than the three executed by Cuba.

 The only real threat to human rights on the island of Cuba is the illegal American gulag for torture and murder and Guantanamo Bay naval base. One US gulag for torture and basic human rights abuses is so secret that it has no official name.

And what democratic country tries to assassinate another country's leader over 600 times? http://www.638waystokillcastro.com/

Congresswoman admits calling for Fidel's assassination - Ros-Lehtinen is forced to retract denial - Orlando Sentinel, US 25/12/06

Manitoba Girl

Fidel wrote:

You're a despicable troll.

No, I'm not.

But you support capital punishment. That's indisputable. You're the one who's despicable. You act as if state-sanctioned murder solves problems instead of making them worse.

I'm through with you. And enough people have seen your views to know that you're scum.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

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The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles. - Marx & Engels. (This is a Tag)

RosaL

Manitoba Girl wrote:
You act as if state-sanctioned murder solves problems instead of making them worse.

 

Hmm... so you're a pacifist then?  

 

 

 

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Quote:
It is pure hypocrisy to stay in a four-star hotel and be waited on by
Cubans who will never and are not allowed to stay in these same hotels.

 

Holy Fuck! In what paradise do you live? Can I come? I was at a hotel in Niagara Falls just a month ago and I'm certain the woman who changed my sheets couldn't stay at that hotel. And I'm certain there were dozens of people living within a short distance of the hotel who couldn't afford to stay there. A DVD I could rent for a toonie at the variety store was $15 to watch at the hotel. I'm sure there were dozens of good, white, hardworking Canadians nearby who wouldn't be welcome in that hotel. Get a grip on reality.

ETA: I'm not going to stay in this thread, because it really annoys me. I really don't understand the obsession with progressives and others with Cuba. It reminds me of conservatives and welfare mothers.

The message to Cuba is "you call yourself a socialist nation so you must -- in the face of a blockade, a decade with a near total lack of fossil fuels, while still managing to maintain lieracy and free health care and managing to evacuate and safeguard citizens during hurricanes -- maintain the perfect socialist state without any foibles."

The  message to welfare mothers is "you call yourself a mother so you must -- in the face of unemployment, a near total lack of daycare, while managing an apartment, utilities, and transportation and ensuring your child's safety and nutrition and constant care -- be the perfect mother while being out looking for a job every day.

In either case it is insane. So many people I've never met must be perfect to be able to envision such possibilities. 

 

 

 

 

Doug

old_bolshie wrote:

The Bahia de Cochinos was before many here were born and if the CIA wanted to plug Castro they would have done it long long ago-Cuba is a relatively small place with few good hiding spots-I know I've cycled over a lot of it.

The CIA failed to kill Castro but it certainly wasn't for lack of trying!

Quote:

Remember how quickly the USA took out Noriega, and how rapidly the Govt of Grenada was taken down?

Until the 1990s Cuba was protected by the not insignificant problem for the US that it was a key ally of the Soviet Union. Invasion would have invited a Soviet response with possibly world-ending consequences. Afterwards, certainly the US has had no pressing interest in taking Cuba by force (besides, this would be ugly compared to Panama or Grenada)and there was some talk of normalizing relations but by that point American politicians an important domestic interest in continuing to ostracize Cuba.

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