In Terms of Human Rights, Nobody Teaches Anything to Cuba

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Fidel

Manitoba Girl wrote:

But you support capital punishment. That's indisputable. You're the one who's despicable. You act as if state-sanctioned murder solves problems instead of making them worse.

And you support CIA sponsored terrorism against Cuba.

You support the largest incarceration of human beings in Cuba at Guantanamo naval base for torture and basic human rights abuses.  

You support the largest jailer in the world, the USSA.

Just admit it now or forever hold your peace.

Doug wrote:

Until the 1990s Cuba was protected by the not insignificant problem for the US that it was a key ally of the Soviet Union. Invasion would have invited a Soviet response with possibly world-ending consequences. Afterwards, certainly the US has had no pressing interest in taking Cuba by force (besides, this would be ugly compared to Panama or Grenada)and there was some talk of normalizing relations but by that point American politicians an important domestic interest in continuing to ostracize Cuba.

This is true. But it still hasnt prevented the CIA and terrorist groups from launching terrorist attacks on Cubans and Cuban infrastructure over the years. And the propaganda war and violation of Cuban airwaves is non-stop.

 

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

As a socialist I believe that Cuba should abolish the death penalty...no "ifs", "ands" or "buts".  Some prinicpals I think are universal.  This is one of them.

Having said that, all indications are that Cuba is gradually moving away from the application of the death penalty. That is a positive development. 

There have been only three executions in the last three years and all current death sentences were commuted to life imprisonment on April 30th of this year.

I have been working my way through "Fidel Castro: My Life (with Ignacio Ramonet)"   It's a book put together via a series of relatively recent interviews with Fidel Castro.   

It's a fascinating book.   Fidel is a great story teller.   There are many instances where within the "inner circles" of the government he took certain positions, but was opposed by the majority.   

For example Fidel talks about how he was exposed to "liberation theology" in Chile in the early 1970's but it took quite awhile before he was able to persuade the Cuban Communist Party to permit religious believers to become members.

Cuban society is quite complex.   Debates are taking place all the time...it's just that they may not be "public".

Just because the Cuban government is carrying out a certain policy at a particular time does not mean that there is unanimaty about those policies.

I am sure that within the Cuban party/state there are definitely debates going on around abolishing the death penalty.

 

 

Unionist

Slumberjack wrote:
The last time we conversed, I recall your direct
accusations of being a war criminal or an accomplice to war crimes
because I made the mistake, yet again, of acknowledging a military
background, or more specifically, a tour of Afghanistan.

So, it's all about you. I had quite forgotten whatever personal biographical tidbit you had offered up. As for calling you a "war criminal", don't flatter yourself. You are irrelevant in the big scheme. My people suffered from war criminals. Whatever you did or didn't do in life, you don't rate.

It's interesting that you demand a "simple answer" to the death penalty in Cuba, and to your pained chagrin, you get the only answer you didn't reckon upon and you can't deal with: That it's up to the Cuban people.

Those who are suffused with a sense of innate superiority - coming from an oh-so-democratic-and-superior civilization, can debate the fate of others endlessly. What they can't fathom, or abide, is keeping their noses out of other people's affairs - whether it's Cuba or Afghanistan or Iran or Bosnia or anywhere. For theirs is a divine mission. A White Man's Burden. A Crusade. A War Against Terror. The name changes, but the ugly reality never does.

old_bolshie

 

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a decade with a near total lack of fossil fuels

Well now they have tonnes and tonnes of the stuff!!!

 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/oct/18/cuban-oil

 It remains to be seen what they do with it however-and who they blame for constantly screwing up their country. 

old_bolshie

If someone here would be so kind could they post the links reporting the US Gubmint sponsored terrorism acts against Cuba as mentioned?

 Because the anti-Castor Cubans I've met are a bunch of old fools who have  been in Miami so long they've forgotten how to speak Spanish.

 Their kids are successful in the USA and they don't give a shit about Cuba either. 

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Quote:
It remains to be seen what they do with it however-and who they blame for constantly screwing up their country.

Yeah, read that old_. But at least the Cubans, if they complain at all, are succeeding. Unlike the broke Americans who bomb everyone they blame for fucking over thier own country and people. What's worse than being poor in Cuba? Being a veteran in the USA.

 

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

A quick Google gives me this list covering terrorist acts against Cuba between 1990 and 2000

http://www.ain.cu/patriotas2/escalaing/terroring1.htm

Slumberjack

Unionist wrote:

Slumberjack wrote:
The last time we conversed, I recall your direct accusations of being a war criminal or an accomplice to war crimes because I made the mistake, yet again, of acknowledging a military background, or more specifically, a tour of Afghanistan.

So, it's all about you. I had quite forgotten whatever personal biographical tidbit you had offered up. As for calling you a "war criminal", don't flatter yourself. You are irrelevant in the big scheme. My people suffered from war criminals. Whatever you did or didn't do in life, you don't rate.

It's interesting that you demand a "simple answer" to the death penalty in Cuba, and to your pained chagrin, you get the only answer you didn't reckon upon and you can't deal with: That it's up to the Cuban people.

Those who are suffused with a sense of innate superiority - coming from an oh-so-democratic-and-superior civilization, can debate the fate of others endlessly. What they can't fathom, or abide, is keeping their noses out of other people's affairs - whether it's Cuba or Afghanistan or Iran or Bosnia or anywhere. For theirs is a divine mission. A White Man's Burden. A Crusade. A War Against Terror. The name changes, but the ugly reality never does.

What truly repugnant is the fact that you youself can announce an opinion on any topic, regardless of the region it pertains to, which is what the board is all about, yet attempt to silence anyone else from having their own dissenting opinion on the topics at hand, in an aggressive fashion, while using a condesending and dismissive tone.  I wouldn't have used the same expression, but someone else called it lame.  But yes, I have the answer, even if you are not capable of openly announcing it.  You do, in certain political circumstances, support the use of the death penalty.

Slumberjack

Unionist wrote:
Slumberjack wrote:

The question is a simple one really, requiring a straightforward answer, and then we can move along to the next atrocity and condemn it equally.  Is capital punishment in Cuba justified, or not?

The simple answer is: It is the business of the Cuban people. It is none of your business whatsoever.

Once you make it your business - like whether women should have the right to be educated in Afghanistan or not - then your armed Crusaders follow, to teach the heathen the ways of their superiors.

The Cuban people will decide. They have survived almost 50 years in the face of the hypocritical murderers who preach "democracy" at them. They will survive some more.

Quite mistakenly, there was a brief moment where I believed a simple answer was all that was required.  I will admit, I am prone to the occasional mistake as you well know, just as you are to sudden irrational outbursts, or perhaps not so sudden.  Which is part of the reason why I've avoided debate with you for a while.  The last time we conversed, I recall your direct accusations of being a war criminal or an accomplice to war crimes because I made the mistake, yet again, of acknowledging a military background, or more specifically, a tour of Afghanistan.  I suspect that is the reason why you referenced it in your reply concerning the topic of Cuba.  But then that is the price for conveying the occasional idiosyncratic recollection; people will make use of it for their own benefit.

Yes, about Cuba.  I've had the pleasure of knowing many of its citizens.  They were delightful.  In those days, and I suspect the same circumstances exist now; very few Cubans had the latitude of frequent travel to other countries.  I surmised that the people I met were fairly well placed within establishment, and not of the same standing as the people that Canadians usually interact with as workers in the hotels of resort destinations.  One of the Canadian smaller east coast airports was a refueling station for Aeroflot junkets between Cuba and the Warsaw pact nations.

By chance, I happened to be living in the neighborhood, and as fortune would have it, frequent repair stops would often result in a few stopover days before things were serviceable enough to continue on.  I must say, that among all of the passengers that disembarked, the Cubans were by far the most enjoyable people to party with.  The East Germans, well they were great too, don’t get me wrong, they loved their beer just as much as their West German counterparts, but the Cubans, they were amazing.  Now the Russians, they liked to drink too as you can well imagine, but with them, it was always a contest, shot glasses, arm wrestles, chess, fist fights, you name it, they were up for it depending on how much alcohol was consumed.  When all was said and done, there were always departing hugs to go around, because that was the way it was.

Now my reason for being there had nothing to do with nefarious official activities, it had more to do with my own weak self interests, involving exchanges for Cuban rum and cigars.  The things that we take for granted in our society are apparently worth something to others, and vice versa.  Regardless of political ideologies, people will always find ways to come together to do what humans have been doing since before recorded history, and that is to barter for the things they want.  I will admit to a residual level of after-market proprietary benefit, but one of the reasons we got along so well is because there were never any first hand cash transactions, only goods for goods.  Sometimes, over alcohol, politics surfaced during the many social occasions, and I found them to be open, pragmatic and exceptionally honest.  To this day, I avoid letting political considerations become an excuse for determining what is right.

Unionist

Baiting. How sweet. That typifies anti-Cuba propaganda on this board.

Slumberjack

Is that all you have to offer? I can't say that I'm surprised, a little disappointed, but not surprised.  I thought there'd be something more substantive, such as 'no, I don't support the death penalty anywhere' but I think I understand where you are with it, and again, it doesn't come as a surprise.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

radiorahim wrote:

As a socialist I believe that Cuba should abolish the death penalty...no "ifs", "ands" or "buts".  Some prinicpals I think are universal.  This is one of them.

There is no principle of socialism that says the death penalty is always wrong. Those who believe that base their beliefs on something other than socialism - like religion, for example.

Quote:
There have been only three executions in the last three years
There have been no executions since 2003 when three hijackers who threatened the lives of 40 people on a boat were sentenced to death (see Chapter 22 of that Castro book you are reading). Apart from those, there has been a moratorium on the death penalty since 2000. Anybody who extrapolates from this that Cuba has no regard for human rights is an ignoramus.

Quote:
I have been working my way through "Fidel Castro: My Life (with Ignacio Ramonet)"   It's a book put together via a series of relatively recent interviews with Fidel Castro.

Excellent book.   

Quote:
Just because the Cuban government is carrying out a certain policy at a particular time does not mean that there is unanimaty about those policies.

I am sure that within the Cuban party/state there are definitely debates going on around abolishing the death penalty.

You're right. See pp. 451-459. 

The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles - Marx & Engels. (The preceding sentence is a tag line - and so are the words in these parentheses)

Slumberjack

old_bolshie wrote:

If someone here would be so kind could they post the links reporting the US Gubmint sponsored terrorism acts against Cuba as mentioned? Because the anti-Castor Cubans I've met are a bunch of old fools who have  been in Miami so long they've forgotten how to speak Spanish.

I think it'd be better if you would be so kind to go away, permanently.

Slumberjack

M. Spector wrote:
There is no principle of socialism that says the death penalty is always wrong. Those who believe that base their beliefs on something other than socialism - like religion, for example.

Or other examples such as progressiveness, or a belief in human rights.  But you're right, it's obvious that having socialist views doesn't necessarily imply an objection to the death penalty in certain circumstances, or for that matter, engaging in coalitions with individuals who support the use of torture in other circumstances.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

From the article referenced in the OP:

Quote:
The same ones that talk about human rights, do they talk about the millions of children in the world who have no access to education? Do they talk about the millions of child victims of violence or exploitation? Do they talk about 250,000 child soldiers? Do they speak of the more than 2 million that died recently in armed conflicts? Do they talk about 100 million children mutilated by war? We are talking about children and we are speaking about figures provided by UNO (UNICEF)… and they talk about human rights in Cuba? No child will be found in these conditions inside Cuba, that I can assure you. None! Not a single one of these children is Cuban inside Cuba.

There are more than 40 million children with memories of 15 years of age, victims of abuse. There are 246 million child workers, and there are 8 million children slaves, forced labor. Where are human rights for these children? And they speak of Cuba? Again, none of these children are Cuban.

They are preoccupied so much to speak about Cuba, but always without any evidence because it does not exist. There is not a single case of torture in Cuba, without being in Guantanamo. They are preoccupied so much with foggy ideas on the freedom of the press, but 40 % of the population in some countries is illiterate. Then they talk about the freedom of the press in Cuba, where everyone can read and has access to information.

There is talk of political prisoners in Cuba. Which political prisoners? Those who launch terrorist and subversive acts at the behest of Washington? Those who want to create social conflict? And what country allows this?

The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles - Marx & Engels. (The preceding sentence is a tag line - and so are the words in these parentheses)

Sven Sven's picture

Ghislaine wrote:
My question is how can what Cuba has be called socialism if it depends on capitalist tourists to survice?

 

That question is rich with irony.

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

M. Spector wrote:

There is no principle of socialism that says the death penalty is always wrong. Those who believe that base their beliefs on something other than socialism - like religion, for example.

Your version of socialism may believe that the death penalty is okay.  My version of socialism does not.   There is not "one socialism" anymore than there is "one Christianity".

Quote:
There have been no executions since 2003 when three hijackers who threatened the lives of 40 people on a boat were sentenced to death.

You are right.   I meant to say only three executions in the last eight years.  I'm probably tired...too many "3's" on my brain.

But still, in this country we have had individuals commit much more serious crimes than these individuals and they have not been executed.

Quote:
Anybody who extrapolates from this that Cuba has no regard for human rights is an ignoramus.

I do not extrapolate that Cuba has no regard for human rights.  But I think that anyone who extrapolates that Cuba has no human rights problems that need to be dealt with is wearing rose coloured glasses.  I think Fidel would agree with this as well.

Quote:
You're right. See pp. 451-459.
 

All the more reason not to feel the need to uncritically defend every single policy of the Cuban government.   When they are doing something that we think is fundamentally wrong we should say so...but within the spirit of solidarity with the Cuban Revolution.

Fidel

I think you've both made some excellent comments, Radiorahim and M. Spector. I'm not going to get between you two or take sides as I think you're both well informed and understand that the forest is more important than individual trees, so to speak. I think Cuban socialism has endured many challenges and will survive many more. Cubans are very proud of the revolution as we are.

Maysie Maysie's picture

Closing for length.

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