Tottenham Riots II

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Catchfire Catchfire's picture
Tottenham Riots II

Continued from here.

Democracy Now's interview with Richard Seymour (author of Lenin's Tomb) and Darcus Howe, C.L.R. James's great nephew, writer and broadcaster who made the internet rounds for his fabulous no-nonsense interview on the BBC here.

Quote:
DARCUS HOWE: There is a mass insurrection. And I’m not talking about rioting; I’m talking about an insurrection that comes from the depths of society, from the consciousness, collectively, of the young blacks and whites, but overwhelmingly black, as a result of the consistent stopping and searching young blacks without cause. They changed the law. Before, you had to provide evidence that you were looking at this character, doing this and bouncing ladies and pushing his hand in a handbag, before they stop and search you. They moved that clean out and replaced it with anti-terror legislation, that you could stop and search anybody, anytime, anywhere. And my grandson is 14 years old, and I asked him, I said, "Nathan, how many times have you been stopped and searched?" He said, "Papa, I can’t count, it’s so many." And that anger has been simmering beneath the surface, because when you have hundreds of thousands of young people acting simultaneously, the issue has to be simultaneously experienced. And so, when Mark Duggan was executed, they all had empathy with it and issues in their minds about what life is and what it is not.

Bacchus
Bacchus

Housing residents face eviction of identified as a rioter

I would point out that whole families could be tossed out if one person in the house was involved, like a teen

 

"When the BBC asked two youths why they were rioting, one responded: "Why are you going to miss the opportunity to get free stuff that's worth loads of money?"

But they also claimed it was in response to government cuts.

One added: "How many people have they arrested really, though, 10? I'm not really bothered. I'll keep doing this every day until I get caught."

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

An Open Letter to David Cameron’s Parents

Quote:
Dear Mr & Mrs Cameron,

Why did you never take the time to teach your child basic morality?

As a young man, he was in a gang that regularly smashed up private property. We know that you were absent parents who left your child to be brought up by a school rather than taking responsibility for his behaviour yourselves. The fact that he became a delinquent with no sense of respect for the property of others can only reflect that fact that you are terrible, lazy human beings who failed even in teaching your children the difference between right and wrong. I can only assume that his contempt for the small business owners of Oxford is indicative of his wider values.

Even worse, your neglect led him to fall in with a bad crowd.

 

N.R.KISSED

Comments coming from Cameron while expected are quite disturbing and appear to be empowering white surpemists to act.

"Whatever resources the police need, they will get. Whatever tactics the police feel they need to employ, they'll have legal backing to do so," Cameron told reporters on Wednesday.

"We will do whatever is necessary to restore law and order onto our streets. Every contingency is being looked at. Nothing is off the table."

"Picture by picture these criminals are being identified and arrested and we will not let any phony concerns about human rights get in the way of the publication of the pictures and the arrest of these individuals."

In a potentially troublesome development, one far-right group said that about 1,000 of its members around the country were taking to the streets to deter rioters.

"We're going to stop the riots —police obviously can't handle it," Stephen Lennon, leader of the far-right English Defence League, told The Associated Press. He warned that he couldn't guarantee there wouldn't be violent clashes with rioting youths.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/08/10/london-riots.html

 

edmundoconnor

As someone who has spent most of their life living in the UK, I've held back from commenting until now, because the sheer torrent of information has been too much to assimilate easily.

To blame the cuts by Cameron is idiotic. To ignore, however, the systematic neglect by all parties of the most deprived areas under PMs Thatcher, Major, Blair and Brown is equally idiotic. To ignore the back-stratching of the City of London while letting whole swathes of the country collapse is lunacy. To understand is not to forgive. Subject the looters and rioters to the full force of the law, but recognize these situations did not spring out of thin air.

And to add to that ignorance by proposing a 'shoot to kill' policy for looters and rioters (comments which have become distressingly common under many articles) is reprehensible, and a betrayal of the country I am proud to have come from. It is understandable to seek punishment, vengeance, and what-have-you. It is the mark of a civilized society to fight base reactions, not pander to them.

dacckon dacckon's picture

Video /w youth running around and buisness owner's analysis.  The video/interview was cut short so you can't hear fully what the buisness owner has lost and believes about the looters.

Courts begin processing charges.        Vigilantism increases.  Social media used by rioters now used by others to fight back.

bekayne

 

Who are the rioters? Young men from poor areas ... but that's not the full story

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/09/london-riots-who-took-part?intcmp=239

dacckon dacckon's picture

Disturbing poll reported by New Statesman

 

33% approve of live ammunition use. 

Sven Sven's picture

 

Interpreting the London riots is a bit of a political Rorschach test: People are interpreting the meaning of the riots based on their particular political persuasion:

Quote:

Read the center-right Daily Telegraph, and you will learn that the riots were caused by [1] a weak and cowardly police force, [2] absent fathers, [3] welfare dependency, or [4] multiculturalism and the tolerance of gangs in schools. Read the center-left Guardian, and you will be informed that [1] police brutality, [2] social exclusion, [3] cuts in welfare spending and [4] the widening gap between rich and poor are to blame. Some are convinced that high levels of immigration are at fault. Others believe the problem lies in British intolerance of immigrants and minorities.

And yet...

Quote:

[It] is [the rioters'] lack of politics that most clearly defines them. If the Egyptians in Tahrir Square wanted democracy and if the anarchists in Athens wanted more government spending, the hooded men in British streets want 46-inch flat-screen high-definition televisions. They aren't smashing the headquarters of the Tory Party; they are smashing clothing shops. Instead of using social media to create civil society or cyberutopia, they use social media to steal. Someone circulated a text message on Monday night, calling friends to central London for "Pure terror and havoc & Free stuff ... just smash shop windows and cart out da stuff u want!"

Aside from stealing, a lot of the rioters-maybe most of the rioters-were also out to have a good time....there is a time-honored tradition of smashing things for fun in Britain, and the groups that enjoy it have been around for a long time. It doesn't take very many of them to do a lot of damage.

Until we have many more facts, most of the declarations about the causes of these riots - which have been articulated by many with absolute certitude - are based on mere speculation.

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

"Capitalism at the heart of the crisis."

Morning Star wrote:
Youth activists put the blame for riots and social unrest sweeping Britain firmly at the feet of capitalism and war today....

"The anger of the youth is derived from a number of factors including police brutality, the massive reduction in public spending on youth and other services, and a general frustration at a future with little prospects," it said. 

"WFDY called on Britain's youth to direct their anger in a positive constructive way and for them to "organise themselves and find the best ways to revolutionarily transform their country, which will surely be through the overthrow of this dominant order and not through the destruction of public or private goods."

The following was a good quote as well ...

Quote:
Stop the War organiser Robin Beste said: "It's hard to imagine that David Cameron would condemn the devastation and mass slaughter visited on Afghanistan and Iraq over the past decade or the bombing of Libya as 'sickening violence.'

No shit.

Quote:
"Many of the same MPs who voted along with the majority in Parliament for the war that reduced much of Iraq to ruins and killed a million Iraqis, take to the moral high ground when alienated youths from our ghettos of deprivation commit their mini-version of 'shock and awe'."

Problem is, it's probably a criminal offence for anyone to suggest that the rioters direct their violence toward those who deserve it: the rich and the powerful.

 

 

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Yes, Sven, it's just a matter of where you sit on the political spectrum. I'm sure having present fathers would have given the crowds protesting Mark Duggan's killing a clearer, more productive way to respond to the batoning of a sixteen-year-old girl. And perhaps if London had a braver police force, they would have put those uppity protesters in their place immediately.

What an offensive comparison.

Sven Sven's picture

Catchfire wrote:

Yes, Sven, it's just a matter of where you sit on the political spectrum. I'm sure having present fathers would have given the crowds protesting Mark Duggan's killing a clearer, more productive way to respond to the batoning of a sixteen-year-old girl. And perhaps if London had a braver police force, they would have put those uppity protesters in their place immediately.

What an offensive comparison.

I'm just not certain that these riots are primarily fueled by a political motivation.

That said, I think it's too early to come to any definitive conclusion.  We'll learn much more in the coming weeks.

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Tinderbox Britain

Morning Star wrote:
In the past 10 years, over 650 people have died in police custody or following contact with the police.

We think it's bad - and it is - when we hear about such deaths in Police custody in the double digits in our own country. We're talking about HUNDREDS OF DEATHS in police custody in the barbaric British state. Hundreds.

Morning Star wrote:
What is happening on the streets of London has political solutions but shouldn't be seen as political protest.

Rioting and looting is a primitive expression of the breakdown of social order.

Young people with nothing to lose are destroying shops and property, fighting the police in running battles and tearing the tokens of capitalism down....

This is not a revolution.

This is a primal scream against years of oppression.

 

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

 

Actually Catchfire I think what people here are trying to say (to you) is this event has morphed its self past protesting those killings. We all get what you keep posting about the initial events and to root of the cause, we really do.

6079_Smith_W

@ Sven

I'd say the roots of this tragedy clearly lay in a chronic situation of abuse, discrimination and poverty.

That said, there are plenty of people on all sides of the political spectrum who seem to enjoy sitting back from a safe distance and fanning the flames in order to promote their own agendas.

None of it helps to resolve the situation.

dacckon dacckon's picture

Youth Unemployment, the youth must be kept busy.

 

Athens vs London (differences + similarities)

 

Murders

Sven Sven's picture

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:

Actually Catchfire I think what people here are trying to say (to you) is this event has morphed its self past protesting those killings. We all get what you keep posting about the initial events and to root of the cause, we really do.

Right.  I don't think anyone questions that the Mark Duggan killing sparked this.  But, what is fueling and perpetuating the riots is far from clear.

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

What's clear is that the representatives of the plutocracy in the UK think that youth rioting is worse than their own policy of war. This policy of war, for example, has led to the death of a million or more Iraqis. A NATO bombing in the last few days in Zlitan, Libya just killed 33 children. These regimes and their leaders are war criminals. They should be put on trial for their lives. What a moral disgrace the British authorities are.

Why, they're just like the nefarious Conservatives here in Canada.

Freedom 55

[url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/10/riots-reflect-societ... riots reflect a society run on greed and looting[/url]

 

Quote:
It is essential for those in power in Britain that the riots now sweeping the country can have no cause beyond feral wickedness. This is nothing but "criminality, pure and simple", David Cameron declared after cutting short his holiday in Tuscany. The London mayor and fellow former Bullingdon Club member Boris Johnson, heckled by hostile Londoners in Clapham Junction, warned that rioters must stop hearing "economic and sociological justifications" (though who was offering them he never explained) for what they were doing.

When his predecessor Ken Livingstone linked the riots to the impact of public spending cuts, it was almost as if he'd torched a building himself. The Daily Mail thundered that blaming cuts was "immoral and cynical", echoed by a string of armchair riot control enthusiasts. There was nothing to explain, they've insisted, and the only response should be plastic bullets, water cannon and troops on the streets.

We'll hear a lot more of that when parliament meets – and it's not hard to see why. If these riots have no social or political causes, then clearly no one in authority can be held responsible. What's more, with many people terrified by the mayhem and angry at the failure of the police to halt its spread, it offers the government a chance to get back on the front foot and regain its seriously damaged credibility as a force for social order.

But it's also a nonsensical position. If this week's eruption is an expression of pure criminality and has nothing to do with police harassment or youth unemployment or rampant inequality or deepening economic crisis, why is it happening now and not a decade ago? The criminal classes, as the Victorians branded those at the margins of society, are always with us, after all. And if it has no connection with Britain's savage social divide and ghettoes of deprivation, why did it kick off in Haringey and not Henley?

To accuse those who make those obvious links of being apologists or "making excuses" for attacks on firefighters or robbing small shopkeepers is equally fatuous. To refuse to recognise the causes of the unrest is to make it more likely to recur – and ministers themselves certainly won't be making that mistake behind closed doors if they care about their own political futures.

dacckon dacckon's picture

Heros amongst the riots

 

Other interesting reads-

Disconnected from Society and Psychology of looting

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

@Sven and BdC

I've long since moved on from Mark Duggan's death. What bothers me is the complete lack of analysis and context to the violence. The point is that they are precisely unclear--they are an inarticulate expression of rage, injustice, frustration and powerlessness in the bourgeois political arena. Yet some here want to paint them as "opportunistic." What a laughable claim on a pan-national phenomenon.

What bothers me is the insistence on a bourgeois response to an emphatically anti-bourgeois roar: obey the law, protect private property, paint the actors as cultureless animals, etc. We might as well invite Boris Johnson to post at babble:

Quote:
It’s time we stop hearing all this, you know, nonsense about how there are deep sociological justifications for wanton criminality and destruction of people’s property. Whatever people’s grievances may be, it does not justify smashing up someone’s shop, wrecking their livelihood, and kicking them out of a job. That is not the way to behave. That’s not the way to have an economic recovery in this city.

Tut, tut, children. That is not the way to behave.

Sven Sven's picture

On my way to work this morning, I listened to an interview of David Lammy, the MP for Tottenham, on National Public Radio:

Quote:

NPR: What do you think of those who are trying to find some political meaning in these riots, suggesting that they are a protest against economic conditions, a protest against British budget cuts and that sort of thing?

Lammy: Look, I am a black member of Parliament. I grew up poor. I grew up fatherless. I know what it is to struggle. But as my mother used to say: You can be poor, but you can still have pride. Politicians have to be really, really careful about the excuses that they are playing into this story, despite the profound, difficult economic backdrop, which I think is, of course, being accelerated by this government.

knownothing knownothing's picture

Sure there will always be poor people who rise above the obstacles society has provided them and they will be paraded as examples of why economic forces do not influence riots and revolutions.

6079_Smith_W

I don't think there is any denying the forces that sparked this, and which continue to fuel a lot of it.

As for the rioting as a response, I'd be careful about painting it as a reaction of the poor, because I am sure there are plenty of poor people who do not support what is going on, and who just want to have their neighbourhoods back. 

If it is inappropriate  for us to condemn the riots because we do not understand the social situation there, it is also inappropriate of us to sanction them if we are not in any danger of injury, or having our houses burned to the ground because of them.

At this point I don't think we can ascribe any single motive or strategy to what is going on. It is out of control, and no one is directing it.

 

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Why does intent represent the only indication of political motivation? And who, anywhere, has asserted that someone is "directing" this violence? Usually conspiracy theories are kept in their own pet threads.

6079_Smith_W

@ Catchfire

Exactly. While I am sure there are some people who are planning their own actions, the situation as a whole is completely out of control. Which is why the discussion  of whether the response is appropriate or not is absurd (and there has been some discussion here along those lines).

But also, to imply that this is a valid response of the poor ignores the likely fact that there are plenty of poor people who are not in favour of the riots at all.

I don't want to imply that we can't say or interpret anything from this. But we are very far removed from the situation on the ground there - especially the violence and the danger -  and we have to be careful about imposing our biases on it - and that goes for all political interpretations, not just the oppressors.

Political and social grievances notwithstanding, I would expect that for a lot of people the first order of business is  ending the violence and instability.

 

 

 

 

Freedom 55

Lammy wrote:

You can be poor, but you can still have pride.

 

Lemmy wrote:

Why do we vote for faceless dogs? We always take the bait.

All things come to he who waits, but all things come too late.

Get Back In Line - Motörhead

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Democracy Now wrote:
Unrest continues to spread across England after protests erupted Saturday in London when police shot to death Mark Duggan, a 29-year-old black man. Mobs firebombed police stations and set shops on fire in London, Manchester, Salford, Liverpool, Nottingham and Birmingham. ... London has been flooded with 16,000 officers, the largest police presence in the city's history. We go to London to speak with journalist Darcus Howe, a longtime critic of police brutality in black and West Indian communities across the U.K., and author and blogger Richard Seymour of the popular British site "Lenin's Tomb." "There is a mass insurrection. And I'm not talking about rioting; I'm talking about an insurrection that comes from the depths of society, from the consciousness, collectively, of the young blacks and whites, but overwhelmingly black, as a result of the consistent stopping and searching young blacks without cause," says Howe of the uprising. Seymour notes that anti-terror legislation has led to an unprecedented number of stops, predominantly of youth of color, but protests against the stops have been largely ignored by the British media. "A political establishment, a media, and a state system that gives people...the impression that they won't be listened to, unless they force themselves onto your attention, is going to lead to riots," says Seymour.

Anger over inequality and racism boils over into insurrection ...

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

The author over at Lenin's Tomb describes a catastrophic collapse of police relations with the black communities in the UK.

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Meanwhile, back in Canada in regard to a riot of a different kind ...

Quote:
Some B.C. residents are expressing frustration about the delay in laying charges in connection with Vancouver's Stanley Cup riot eight weeks ago, while more than 100 people have already been charged following rioting in England this week.

Out of hundreds of potential cases in Vancouver, eight have been reviewed by the Crown and all of those have been sent back to police for further review.

No charges have been laid, even among the dozens of people who turned themselves in following the June 15 downtown mayhem.

I guess when rich people "riot" it's a different story, eh?

Delay in Vancouver Riot Charges a Contrast to UK

 

Erik Redburn

ikosmos wrote:

Meanwhile, back in Canada in regard to a riot of a different kind ...

Quote:
Some B.C. residents are expressing frustration about the delay in laying charges in connection with Vancouver's Stanley Cup riot eight weeks ago, while more than 100 people have already been charged following rioting in England this week.

Out of hundreds of potential cases in Vancouver, eight have been reviewed by the Crown and all of those have been sent back to police for further review.

No charges have been laid, even among the dozens of people who turned themselves in following the June 15 downtown mayhem.

I guess when rich people "riot" it's a different story, eh?

Delay in Vancouver Riot Charges a Contrast to UK

 

 

Now thats one of he things I noticed most.   When it first happened the cops and the media were all going on about 'anarchists'.  And the government was saying all the 'get tough on crime' things.  Christie Clark said they'd be zero tolerance shown.  Are we still a "world class" city they asked plaintively; will Anyone ever take us seriously (do business with us) again?   (well of course they will twits, sports riots happen all over and are quickly forgotten)  Remember?

Then suddenly, they found a kid who said he was really really sorry because like...he was kicked off the water polo team.  Rising star apparently, but who really pays attention to water polo in Canada?   Suddenly the questions and uncertainty started in the media, among the cops, in government about just who was responsible for it.  They conceded maybe it isn't "all" anarchists.  Then the story quickly dried up, replaced by loyal Vancouverites cleaning up the mess, getting awards and a big free lunch.  So we are still a "real world class city", followed in our examply by some in Britain apparently.   The questions about who was responsible, the "kind of parents" who raised them were no longer of interest.  The story is now practically nonexistent.  Expect to hear much commentary how about all these kids (mostly white, middleclss apparently) are still going free?    No.   

That's the double standard.

6079_Smith_W

I am sure there is some double standard, though I am sure it has as much to do with cutting some slack to the fans of Canada's national game as it does for the polo player. 

That said, these are two entirely different countries we are talking about, two different police forces with different resources, and very  different circumstances. And London, unlike Vancouver, is the nation's capital.

There was a piece on the National tonight in which one spokesperson made the excuse that the Vanocuver cops had to verify amateur video, wheras in London all the footage is from the government closed-circuit network.

Even so, laying no charges whatsoever - not even against the polo player - is pretty shameful.

 

Erik Redburn

I'm beginning to wonder if there's really much difference anywhere now.   The ultra far right is showing clear signs of rising here too, as a reaction among those who have invested too much emotinally into how 'our system works'.  So when it doesn't anymore, it must be the 'others' among us who's at fault.  Or the 'envious' and 'out-of-touch' liberals and socialists who 'coddle them' with 'their' tax dollars.

Erik Redburn

Sven wrote:

On my way to work this morning, I listened to an interview of David Lammy, the MP for Tottenham, on National Public Radio:

Quote:

NPR: What do you think of those who are trying to find some political meaning in these riots, suggesting that they are a protest against economic conditions, a protest against British budget cuts and that sort of thing?

Lammy: Look, I am a black member of Parliament. I grew up poor. I grew up fatherless. I know what it is to struggle. But as my mother used to say: You can be poor, but you can still have pride. Politicians have to be really, really careful about the excuses that they are playing into this story, despite the profound, difficult economic backdrop, which I think is, of course, being accelerated by this government.

 

So a few guys make it through and are now showing their gratitude to the system.  

What do you *you* think Sven, about the absolutely Zero arrest made on the hundreds of deaths in police custody?  Zero.  Are they all 'unavoidable' accidents?  

And what do you think about the likleyhood of the next generation of 'innercity' (poor) kids being 'integrated into society' now, now that the industrial sector has been almost entiely removed from Britain?    Years before any of this happend.  Where are the innercity jobs going to come from?   Flipping burgers for minimum wage?

And what do you think about the ugly racist commentary being posted in every damn forum on the subject, includoing the supposedly left-of Guardian?  You know, how theyre just 'feral'?  How they should just be cut off from 'the dole', as if all those 'generous benefits' are the cause; how even their families should be turfed into the streets?  Or even how they should just be shot, a view supported by apparently a *third* of the population polled? 

And what do you think about the *trillions* of tax payers dollars going to bail out the self bankrupting "free markets" and the bills being paid by 'austerity' programs by governments throughout the West?  Doesn't that strike you as just a wee bit hypocritical?   I mean why are the non-working class who making a damn good living at it, livng high on interest and dividends, living high on public bailouts when they implode- why are THey never being held to account by all the supposedly 'average joes' in the press?

Could it be the myths they cling to, no matter what happens, keep them from *ever* seeing what's actually happening all around us now?

6079_Smith_W

CBC Radio's business reporter mentioned this morning that some businesses are using the riots as a marketing opportunity through twitter - urging Britons to eat comfort food, saying "don't go looting; there's popcorm for everyone", and one grocery chain offering free bottled water to those helping with the cleanup.

Opportunistic and risky, IMO. I imagine that could actually make some places a target

Caissa

What a steaming pile of horse manure from Cameron.

Quote:

British Prime Minister David Cameron said the government will look into whether rioters should be banned from using social media sites like Twitter, Facebook or BlackBerry Messenger to organize violent acts.

"Everyone watching these horrific actions will be stuck by how they were organized via social media," Cameron told Parliament during an emergency session on Thursday. "Free flow of information can be used for good. But it can also be used for ill."

"And when people are using social media for violence we need to stop them.

"So we are working with the police, the intelligence services and industry to look at whether it would be right to stop people communicating via these websites and services when we know they are plotting violence, disorder and criminality."

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Next, the UK authorities will make use of the idea of former policeman Eric Arthur Blair (AKA George Orwell) and institute "thought crimes" in that great bastion of unfreedom, police surveillance, institutional racism, and police execution of civilians.

ETA: incidently, I'm finding that the UK left wing paper "Morning Star" is being blocked this morning.

dacckon dacckon's picture

I don't think Cameron is going to rely on experts who see beyond one criminological perspective, he will choose a perspective he ideologically likes.

 

Interesting Figures published by the Police 

6079_Smith_W

@ Caissa

I heard the report this morning that the recalled parliament will be rethinking their austerity measures...

*** drum roll  ***

...with respect to policing because of the riots.

and @ Ikosmos

yeah, too bad Orwell died of TB ages ago, otherwise we could have the pleasure of throwing him in the tumbrel with the rest of the aristocrats.

 

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

According to the front page of the Morning Star (all I can get right now - the paper itself is being blocked or something)  Cameron is giving the police a blank cheque to do as they see fit.

That's a recipie for miserable failure  - the police execution of Mark Duggan was the catalyst that set off violence in Tottenham in the first place.

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Riot clean up or Riot WHITE wash?

Quote:
It's going to take more than posturing, ‘blitz-spirit', keep-calm-and-carry-on clap-trap and colonial Kipling-esque "keeping your head" to fix this mess. The strikingly middle-class, broadly white efforts to sweep issues of inequality under the carpet of a simulated big-society photo-op has been a telling, if little discussed, aspect of the recent rioting, making little headway in the scramble of blogposts and tweets attempting hasty analyses of the unfolding turmoil. This doughty bunch of volunteer cleaners, the substitution for a non-existent community, appeared right on cue to fill the media narrative all day following a night of London's most extensive social unrest in decades. Even Mayor Boris had leisurely returned from holiday to be snapped with the broom-wielding bourgeoisie of Clapham as they amassed for a bit of symbolic social cleansing.

another quote ... "today's broom-wielding petit-bourgeoisie = tomorrow's freikorps" ??

6079_Smith_W

I had to laugh at the title. Not that I disagree entirely with the sentiment, but I think the "University for Strategic Pessimism" might have been more appropriate.

 

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Perhaps it was an ironic and mocking sort of name.

6079_Smith_W

Yeah..... perhaps

*snort*

Of course people DO have the right to clean the broken bottles off their front steps, even if it ruins the photo ops.

 

dacckon dacckon's picture

Quote:
1712: He attacks the "Grand Theft Auto culture" that he says lies behind the violence.
1711: Mr Lammy says many young men in the Tottenham area did not take part as they have been "brought up to show respect".
1711: Mr Lammy praises the "brave and very resilient" people in his constituency but urges the government not to forget them as the TV cameras move out. He says the riots cannot be explained away "simply by poverty or cuts to public services" - pointing out that most young men in the area did not take part.
1710: But he also tells MPs that the Metropolitan Police did make mistakes "and must be subject to a full public inquiry".
1709: Tottenham MP David Lammy is making an impassioned speech - condemning the violence and saying it had nothing to do with the death of Mark Duggan: "This violence and we condemn it utterly," he tells MPs

1850: Mr Winnick joins the list of Labour MPs to call for a reversal of police cuts - saying "it makes no sense at all" in the current situation.
1849: Labour MP David Winnick , who represents Walsall North, says mentioning social and economic factors behind the riots does not make him "an apologist" for law-breaking.

1924: Ms Buck says the stresses of consumerism and a widening of economic divisions must be addressed when looking at the causes of the trouble.
1921: Karen Buck, a Labour MP, says the rioting was not a protest and "no-one marched with a manifesto".

Parliment debate live.

Erik Redburn

ikosmos wrote:

Next, the UK authorities will make use of the idea of former policeman Eric Arthur Blair (AKA George Orwell) and institute "thought crimes" in that great bastion of unfreedom, police surveillance, institutional racism, and police execution of civilians.

ETA: incidently, I'm finding that the UK left wing paper "Morning Star" is being blocked this morning.

 

Are you seriously sugesting that Orwell was Supporting the idea of 'thought crimes'??   

Oh ya, you just resent his clarifying for others what most leftists were already coming to realize -the Soviet and Chinese revolutions had already been taken over by the same kind of fascist dinosaurs who were threatening the West.  He was a bit too pessimistic fortunately, FDR was a genuine reformer, despite his elitist limits, and the corporatist right has had to move slower than he feared.

Erik Redburn

Caissa wrote:

What a steaming pile of horse manure from Cameron.

Quote:

British Prime Minister David Cameron said the government will look into whether rioters should be banned from using social media sites like Twitter, Facebook or BlackBerry Messenger to organize violent acts.

"Everyone watching these horrific actions will be stuck by how they were organized via social media," Cameron told Parliament during an emergency session on Thursday. "Free flow of information can be used for good. But it can also be used for ill."

"And when people are using social media for violence we need to stop them.

"So we are working with the police, the intelligence services and industry to look at whether it would be right to stop people communicating via these websites and services when we know they are plotting violence, disorder and criminality."

 

Fascistic too.  But probably unenforceable, without infringing on the freedoms enjoyed by his own supporters.

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Erik Redburn wrote:
Are you seriously sugesting that Orwell was Supporting the idea of 'thought crimes'??  

Orwell used his experience as a colonial policeman to invent such terms. Or didn't you know that?

6079_Smith_W

ikosmos wrote:

Erik Redburn wrote:
Are you seriously sugesting that Orwell was Supporting the idea of 'thought crimes'??  

Orwell used his experience as a colonial policeman to invent such terms. Or didn't you know that?

Actually I think you might be talking more about "1984" and "Homage to Catalonia". I don't think they cared much about thoughtcrime in British India.

"Shooting an Elephant" was more about his feeling alienated and trapped working as a colonial police officer. If anything, I think his work for the BBC, or his experiacne in Spain was more informative about what you are talking about. Of course, it's easier to smear someone for being a cop than for being a journalist, or for being on the republican side of the Spanish civil war.

 

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Ok, so acknowledging Orwell's police background is smearing him? Who knew?

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