Tottenham Riots III

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MegB
Tottenham Riots III

Continued from here.

Sarann

Wasn't it not that long ago that British MPs were caught looting the treasury big time, and didn't the banks and financial institutions loot billions from the treasury too.  I guess it's who's doing the looting that decides whether it's terrible criminality or not. I didn't see any of the MP's threatened with such dire punishment.  Britain really never has chucked out its class system, has it?

dacckon dacckon's picture

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14513517

Very biased, rude historian debates two others.

laine lowe laine lowe's picture

Sarann wrote:

Wasn't it not that long ago that British MPs were caught looting the treasury big time, and didn't the banks and financial institutions loot billions from the treasury too.  I guess it's who's doing the looting that decides whether it's terrible criminality or not. I didn't see any of the MP's threatened with such dire punishment.  Britain really never has chucked out its class system, has it?

 

I agree. But when it comes to the poor and disenfranchised, hypocrisy rules the day.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Indeed.

Quote:
'An excessive sense of entitlement" was what the mayor of London ascribed to those looting their way across our sceptred isle – but he could have been referring to himself. In the mid-to-late 80s, Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson – not to mention David Cameron and his now chancellor George Osborne – were members of the notorious Bullingdon Club, the Oxford university "dining" clique that smashed their way through restaurant crockery, car windscreens and antique violins all over the city of knowledge.

Not unlike a certain section of today's youth, the "Bullers" have little regard for property. Prospective members often have their rooms trashed by their new-found friends, while the club has a reputation for ritualistic plate-smashing at unsuspecting country pubs. It has been banned from several establishments, while contemporary Bullers are said to chant, at all hours: "Buller, Buller, Buller! Buller, Buller, Buller! We are the famous Bullingdon Club, and we don't give a fuck!"

 

NDPP

Turkish-Kurdish Community Speaker on Riots (and vid)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIr0ES-gwhc&feature=player_embedded#at=280

Racists Want Mosques Burnt in Unrest

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/193423.html

"Britain's Islamic Human Rights Council (IHTC) has warned that far-right groups seek to use unrest as an opportunity to burn down mosques and stage a race-war...IHRC Chairman, Massoud Shadgareh said they are especially worried because the EDL threat is apparently being taken lightly.."

Planet of Slums, Age of Riots  - by George Ciccariello-Maher

http://counterpunch.org/maher08122011.html

"As one observer put it, these youth 'got nothing to lose', to which we might be tempted to add, 'but their chains'.

Life In an Age of Looting  - by Phil Rockstroh

http://dissidentvoice.org/2011/08/life-in-an-age-of-looting/

"some will rob you with a sixgun and some with a fountain pen'..Accordingly, the most profound act of selfless devotion (commonly called love) in relationship to a society gripped by a sociopathic mode of being is creative resistance.

Submission is madness. Sanity entails subversion. The heart insists on it; otherwise life is only a slog to the graveyard: mouth, full of ashes; heart a receptacle for dust."

 

 

6079_Smith_W

I guess now that the smoke has started clearing that is going to be part of the justification for this for the straight press as well (with biblical quotes) - that the rich are doing it too, so it's just a race to the bottom.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100100708/the-moral-decay-...

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11224/1166788-153-0.stm

http://www.smh.com.au/world/the-rich-too-suffer-from-moral-poverty-20110...

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/courts-reveal-rioters-are-no...

Unfortunately not everyone - including the racists NDPP mentions above, and communities that are threatening to turn on each other - bought their papers this morning.

And unfortunately that tidy analysis doesn't do much to induce responsibility in anyone (the government and police first) to try and change things so this is less likely to happen again.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sven Sven's picture

As that piece from the Independent said, 6079_Smith_W, "It may be too early to draw firm conclusions from this sorry parade" (i.e., while the initial group of protesters being processed through the courts appear to be basically middle class white kids who were out for a good time, it still may take some time to get to the bottom of this to find out what was really going on).

But, thus far, I think Anne Applebaum in Slate had it exactly right several days ago: The riots were an "inkblot in a kind of national Rorschach test: Everyone sees in them the political issue they care about most, whether it's welfare dependency, budget cuts, the decline of public education, or—my personal favorite—the rise of a vulgar and amoral public culture."  That's what happens when people draw definitive conclusions about an event before all of the facts are out in the open to examine in the sober light of day...

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

Quote:

It may be too early to draw firm conclusions from this sorry parade. As one lawyer said, these defendants might well have been the second wave of looters: too old, slow or stupid to avoid getting caught.

The kids from the ghetto seemed to understand the game a lot better than the privileged folks caught with their fingers in the cookie jar.

I love the story of the 11 year old arrested for stealing a waste paper basket from a display window someone else broke. 

Hang him high I say teach the little cretin a thing about real justice.  Then go after his mother and make her pay also. (sarcasm alert)

6079_Smith_W

@ Sven

Yeah. I see the temptation (and the importance, to some degree) of looking at the big picture, but on the other hand I think using that method to look for a definitive answer (and presumably a definitive solution)  is ridculous.

And if does nothing to change things on the front line. I think taking one aspect of this  - like the flashpoint, heavy-handed police oppression and poverty, and a lack of services in those communities - and trying to work on that is more productive. Unfortunately the official response - more force and more pressure -  may be setting up these communities for a repeat of this.

(edit)

And I don't have time to navel gaze with Rex Murphy all day, but if Robert Fulford invoking Dickens on the front page of the National Post is any indication, not too many people are on the right track to begin with.

6079_Smith_W

@ NS

Actually there was a story (presumably on the wire, since it is in the front section of the Edmonton Journal) of a British judge berating a kids' parents for being at work instead of in front of him to explain why their kid was in the dock for looting.

So sadly, your irony is a pretty accurate reflection of reality..

ETA:

It'a from the daily telegraph, on page A16 of teh Journal

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

IMO it is akin to that woman being charged with killing her children because she jaywalked and a drunk driver did a hit and run.  Or the stupid people in Vancouver demanding to know where the parents of teenagers were while their kids were attending a mass public event that was billed as family friendly.  I have already raised my two sons and I can't imagine telling a 16 year old no you can't go to the Canucks festivities unless I come also. Shit like that is merely a recipe for even more teenage nihilistic revolt but commentators and citizens kept screaming for the parents of teenagers to be held responsible because they didn't lock up their teenagers.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

[url=http://www.stopwar.org.uk/index.php/cost-of-war/687-the-london-riots-the... London riots, the war in Afghanistan, and Amy Winehouse[/url]

Quote:
It in no way justifies or excuses the rioting witnessed in London this week to say that some forms of thuggery, theft and criminality seem more worthy of condemnation than others.

A brick thrown through a shop window, a furniture store torched, a bus burnt out, certainly warrant condemnation, but it's hard to imagine that David Cameron would condemn the devastation and mass slaughter visited on Afghanistan and Iraq over the past decade -- or the bombing of Libya -- as "sickening violence".

On the contrary, this is the kind of "sickening violence" that he and the majority of MPs now tripping over themselves to voice their outrage over the rioters trashing high streets across Britain, are quick to justify as motivated by the superiority of  "our values".

Many of the same MPs who voted along with the majority in parliament for the war that reduced much of Iraq to ruins and killed a million Iraqis, take to the moral high ground when alienated youths from our ghettoes of deprivation commit their mini-version of "shock and awe".

And which of the politicians now demanding that the London rioters must be subjected to "the full weight of the law" has said the same of Tony Blair, guilty of international war crimes, in the lies and deceptions he used to take Britain into an illegal war? Where is the outrage that he has not been held to account and remains free to accumulate vast wealth directly from the political and business contacts he made when he was committing these crimes?

When it comes to condemning theft, however many trainers, mobile phones and designer clothes have been stolen by the London rioters, they are petty crooks compared to the thievery that has BP, with the aid of the western powers, quite literally stealing control of Iraq's most valuable resource: the oil which was the main motivation for the invasion in 2003.

And as for the cost of clearing up after the London riots, which it is estimated will be £100 million, this is roughly how much has been spent on just 15 missiles among the dozens Britain's military has fired into Libya over the past few months.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

[url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/13/david-starkey-claims-whites-bla... Starkey's career comes to an ignominious end[/url]

Quote:
The historian and broadcaster David Starkey has provoked a storm of criticism after claiming during a televised discussion about the riots that "the problem is that the whites have become black".

In an appearance on BBC2's Newsnight, Starkey spoke of "a profound cultural change" and said he had been re-reading Enoch Powell's rivers of blood speech.

"His prophesy was absolutely right in one sense. The Tiber did not foam with blood but flames lambent, they wrapped around Tottenham and wrapped around Clapham," he said.

"But it wasn't inter-community violence. This is where he was absolutely wrong." Gesturing towards one of the other guests, Owen Jones, who wrote Chavs: the Demonisation of the Working Classes, Starkey said: "What has happened is that a substantial section of the chavs that you wrote about have become black."...

Jones told the Guardian he believed Starkey's comments were "a career-ending moment". He said: "He tapped into racial prejudice at a time of national crisis. At other times, those comments would be inflammatory but they are downright dangerous in the current climate.

"I fear that some people will now say that David Starkey is right, and you could already see some of them on Twitter. I am worried about a backlash from the right and he will give legitimacy to those views in the minds of some." On the programme, Starkey said: "The whites have become black. A particular sort of violent destructive, nihilistic gangster culture has become the fashion and black and white boys and girls operate in this language together.

"This language which is wholly false, which is this Jamaican patois that has been intruded in England and that is why so many of us have this sense of literally of a foreign country."

The historian and broadcaster, whose historical documentaries on Channel 4 about the Tudors established him as a household name, went on to name-check Tottenham's Labour MP: "Listen to David Lammy, an archetypal successful black man. If you turn the screen off so that you are listening to him on radio you would think he was white."

NDPP

A Nation of Shopkeepers  -  by Peter Linebaugh

http://counterpunch.org/linebaugh08122011.html

"A second commune? An archipelago of communes?"

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Thank goodness that the nation has finally been exposed to Starkey's bigotry. The man is a grade-A asshole and has been spouting his ignorance and prejudice for years on various platforms. A few years ago he warned that England was at risk of becoming a "feeble nation" like Scotland, Wales and Ireland if they adopted a national holiday. His justification for why England shouldn't was that they didn't have a "national dress." Aside from being a bigot, he's also an idiot. Good riddance.

Tommy_Paine

Hate to be Captain Bring Down, but it takes a lot more to discredit someone these days.  This guy will probably pop up even more.  Interviewers are greedy for headlines these days, and who better than an idiot?

The Pope was in Hitler Youth.  Conrad Black writes columns from his prison cell.  Greenspan is still on Meet the Press. Tom Flanagan has a regular spot on Evan Solomon's infomercials.  Rootin' Tootin' Shootin' illegal handgun possesor, Mr. "Create a Crisis in Education", John Snobellin has a regular column in our crypto Murdoch Press. 

Yep, you pretty much have to be a pedophile, or poor, to not get a place at the podium these days.

 

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..a short report that includes video.

UK marchers ask government to put an end to unrest

Thousands gathered in North London's Hackney, one of the areas which in the last week has seen lootings and vandalism, for the Give Our Kids A Future march....

http://www.presstv.com/detail/193808.html


epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..awesome pics from the march

Give Our Kids a Future march peacefully crowds the streets of London

Media Summary
The North London Assembly held a march and demonstration today in response to the recent London riots. The march represented a call for unity, peace and a future for children. UK. 13th August 2011

http://www.demotix.com/news/789530/give-our-kids-future-march-peacefully...

 

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..i can't speak to the effectiveness but the assembly moved quickly in this crisis situation. those people 1st came together on the 9th and today here they are promoting unity and justice. 

 

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

How best to deal with the disenfranchised and dispossessed? Evict them, say Tories.

Quote:
With the support of David Cameron, Conservative Wandsworth council was the first to attempt to evict tenants who had been caught up in the rioting. The prime minister also pledged to support "zero tolerance" policing where minor offences are prosecuted and said a series of tough measures would be unveiled in coming months to fight crime and reclaim the streets. "We haven't talked the language of zero tolerance enough but the message is getting through," he said.

Wandsworth announced on Friday that the first eviction notice had been served – to the mother of an 18-year-old boy accused of violent disorder and attempted theft. The teenager has not yet been convicted but has appeared in court in connection with disturbances on Monday at Clapham Junction.

Other authorities, including Westminster, Greenwich, Hammersmith and Fulham, Nottingham and Salford, are also considering evicting those found to have taken part in the unrest.

Yes. Let's all board the law and order express. 

 

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Guilt by association? That's basically collective punishment - something that occupying powers do. The government is more unlawful than the rioters if that's the route they want to go.

Arrest the government.

deb93

That is too much! Are they evicting the families of every rioter or just the poor ones!?

Tommy_Paine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hukGQeT260E

Kiss me goodnight, sargeant major....

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

deb93 wrote:
That is too much! Are they evicting the families of every rioter or just the poor ones!?

They could start seizing rich peoples flats and homes and selling them to pay for the damages.  I doubt if the law and order types would agree with that kind of measure.

This is indeed collective punishment.  No parents have absolute control over their 18 year olds and the idea that they should be held responsible is ludicrous. However it was a prevalent viewpoint in Vancouver where many called for punishing parents for allowing their teenagers to go to a public event without parental subervision. 

Erik Redburn

Sven wrote:

 

But, thus far, I think Anne Applebaum in Slate had it exactly right several days ago: The riots were an "inkblot in a kind of national Rorschach test: Everyone sees in them the political issue they care about most, whether it's welfare dependency, budget cuts, the decline of public education, or—my personal favorite—the rise of a vulgar and amoral public culture."  That's what happens when people draw definitive conclusions about an event before all of the facts are out in the open to examine in the sober light of day...

 

So much for initial public reactions, how do you feel about this:

 

 

"Wandsworth announced on Friday that the first eviction notice had been served – to the mother of an 18-year-old boy accused of violent disorder and attempted theft. The teenager has not yet been convicted but has appeared in court in connection with disturbances on Monday at Clapham Junction."

 

...Sven(?)

Erik Redburn

See, those who are insisting that we are all jumping to conclusions are ignoring two essential features of this argument.  One is that the severe poverty, marginilzation and rank hypocracy that the left points to are well documented realities; while the 'wild tendency towards criminality' and lack of respect for order (applepie, parents, the work ethic) the right refers to, appears to be based on nothing but racism and the conjoined need to insist that 'our' society would be A-Ok if not for certain 'feral' elements. 

Second, they ignore the fact that those who actually have the power to make or break the law are clearly siding with one POV.   That shouldn't come as a surprise, power lying where it always has. 

Erik Redburn

ikosmos wrote:

Guilt by association? That's basically collective punishment - something that occupying powers do. The government is more unlawful than the rioters if that's the route they want to go.

Arrest the government.

 

According to Magna Carta we have the right to.

We'd need an army to do it though.

6079_Smith_W

It's not like it isn't tried regularly - places where internet is cut off because of one person being accused of an infraction. And I remember reading about one person getting his firearms license yanked because someone stole his guns, which were properly stored. And of course lawsuits against parents for things their children have done.

Of course this is over the top, groundless, and some of it is probably illegal, but it;s not surprising that it is one of the things the government would leap to since everyone seems to be playing the blame game here to defliect from their own culpability and to be seen to be doing something.

A move to rein in the police, restore some of the community funding they cut would be a de facto admission that they were primarily to blame for this.

As for the move to punish parents and drive offenders into further poverty, the most important thing of course is that it will not work, and will in probably help contrbute to more riots in the future.

(edit)

And Eric, I am not accusing people of leaping to conclusions so much as ignoring the practical realities of the situation.

Arrest the government? Sure. Good luck with that.

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:
 

And of course lawsuits against parents for things their children have done.

In Canada the test for parental responsibility in neligence cases is extremely high.  As it should be.  The mere fact your son or daughter is caught doing something wrong is not proof of parental negligence or responsibility.  Sending your kids out to loot would meet any test.  A major grey area is when one has teenage kids that are at home alone while you work.  If the parents have told their children to stay at home and not go out into the riots but they do anyways then is it reasonable to expect the parents to be responsible.  In the US in many states the parents would be held responsible but not in Canada.  

http://www.altalawyers.com/Practices/Other/Articles/Parental_Responsibil...

The UK seems to be similar to Canada and the standard is described as; "A parent can be held liable for their child’s negligence if the parent failed to take reasonable care to see that the child did not cause harm to others."  As in all tort cases the question is what are reasonable precautions.  

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_rights/legal_system/young_peopl...

Erik Redburn

6079_Smith_W wrote:

It's not like it isn't tried regularly - places where internet is cut off because of one person being accused of an infraction. And I remember reading about one person getting his firearms license yanked because someone stole his guns, which were properly stored. And of course lawsuits against parents for things their children have done.

Of course this is over the top, groundless, and some of it is probably illegal, but it;s not surprising that it is one of the things the government would leap to since everyone seems to be playing the blame game here to defliect from their own culpability and to be seen to be doing something.

A move to rein in the police, restore some of the community funding they cut would be a de facto admission that they were primarily to blame for this.

As for the move to punish parents and drive offenders into further poverty, the most important thing of course is that it will not work, and will in probably help contrbute to more riots in the future.

(edit)

And Eric, I am not accusing people of leaping to conclusions so much as ignoring the practical realities of the situation.

Arrest the government? Sure. Good luck with that.

 

I didn't know I was refering to you.   However, the perfectly valid point remains.  The duly elected government is the one now breaking its own laws.  To make the situation even worse for everyone they deem guilty, without even giving them their day in court -another violation.  Basic principles again, on which ALL our laws are supposed to be based on now, going all the way back to Magna Carta.  (and further to certain Greek, Roman, and AngloSaxon concepts)

I'm not so naive to think these priciples have ever been observed consistently by those in power, paricularly when it applies to themselves. Like for instance, seizing huge amounts of public property without our permission and giving it to private interests.  Then making us pay for their debts again.  In ways which cannot possibly be achieved by those who'll be hit hardest -those least responsible.

I don't know where you got the notion I was seriously suggesting we can arrest them all though.  The ability to enforce laws and invoke them are two different things, something we could all reflect on now.  The legitimacy of laws however, should go beyond the mere power to enforce them though, unless we don't even need to pretend we live in a democracy anymore.

Erik Redburn

I mean it's good to hear Cameron's 'zero tolerance' partners are expressing doubts:

"As Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg also cautioned against "kneejerk" reactions, Hughes's comments were backed by the Lib Dems' welfare spokeswoman, Jenny Willott, who said she was "very worried" about moves to cut benefits for those involved in the riots, when the same punishment would not apply to others who had committed equally serious offences.

"One obvious problem would be that if people don't have money they would turn more to acquisitive crime. I completely understand people's desire to stamp out the problem, but it is important that we do not make things worse," Willott said."

 

But as usual it fails to address the essential injustice behind it.

Sven Sven's picture

Erik Redburn wrote:

So much for initial public reactions, how do you feel about this:

"Wandsworth announced on Friday that the first eviction notice had been served – to the mother of an 18-year-old boy accused of violent disorder and attempted theft. The teenager has not yet been convicted but has appeared in court in connection with disturbances on Monday at Clapham Junction."

...Sven(?)

Eviction?  I wouldn't stop there.  In fact, based on a mere accusation of rioting (don't bother with actual convictions), I'd go directly to the execution of all family members...down to second and third cousins!

No.  I don't think eviction of family members is just.  I don't believe in collective punishment.  In fact, I wouldn't evict convicted rioters unless that was one of the pre-existing enumerated punishments already on the law books, which I highly doubt is the case (usually, the laws will provide for a fine, jail time, or both).

But, I did find Northern Shoveler's solution interesting: Confiscate the houses and flats of "the rich" and use those funds to pay for the damage.  Talk about collective punishment...

Erik Redburn

I believe NS was being a bit ironic there himself in response to the idiocy. 

But thank you for agreeing that it's not very fair or equitable.  I knew you'd see it but sometimes I wonder where the priorities are.

Now, if only more libertarians and centrists would join the protests against the governments calls for collective punishment we might actually get somewhere.  Because it worries me when they not only pander to these immediate gut reactions, but actively try to enforce them or, worse, take them even further.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Matthaios Tsimitakis: The Future Is Now – And It Doesn’t Look Good

August 12th, 2011

By Matthaios Tsimitakis

Any social scientist would probably disagree with the comparison; but coming from the south of Europe and watching the chaos spreading all over London, waking up memories, it seemed unavoidable to me. If there are any analogies to be found, between the London riots and other cities where similar events occurred in the past ten years, then these are in Paris 2005 and the incidents in Athens in December 2008 when a teenager was shot dead in a confrontation with the police and the city drifted into chaos for about a month. Every social phenomenon is different according to its particular nature, yet it’s useful to compare and vary the context in which we attempt to understand it, as this sometimes reveals aspects hidden under the apparatus of shock we’re experiencing. So here’s what happened back in Athens:

http://www.thenewsignificance.com/2011/08/12/matthaios-tsimitakis-the-fu...

 

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Matthaios Tsimitakis: The Future Is Now – And It Doesn’t Look Good

Quote:

Similar to what is happening in Britain now, in Athens three years ago, there were two main lines of analysis: The first expressed the need for more social order and discipline, while the other the need to understand the factors that created this – what we needed to change in order to avoid similar events in the future. It was evident that nobody controlled or coordinated the violent demonstrations while they were spreading throughout the country, though this was proposed at first. The Media were trapped in the empty stereotype of the hooded violent youngster who nobody knew, really, and the social scientists were at a loss. It was the international press that first pointed to the fact that the events in Athens 2008, could be described as the first insurrection of the global economic crisis, an interpretation strongly opposed by the center-right and the mainstream media. Twitter, Facebook, Indymedia as well as Al Jazeera, or the Guardian were considered to be faster or more reliable sources of information than the national media. When things went back to normal nobody had understood what this month of violent frustration in the streets of Athens and all the big cities in Greece, was all about....

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

Sven wrote:

Eviction?  I wouldn't stop there.  In fact, based on a mere accusation of rioting (don't bother with actual convictions), I'd go directly to the execution of all family members...down to second and third cousins!

But, I did find Northern Shoveler's solution interesting: Confiscate the houses and flats of "the rich" and use those funds to pay for the damage.  Talk about collective punishment...

What only you can use sarcasm or where you being intentionally dense?

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Complain to the mods about Sven's joking about the deaths of others. Don't waste your time arguing with such tripe.

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Quote:
US social movements scholar Jack Goldstone points out the fruit of scholarship on this issue which, he points out in another forum, has been particularly detailed since the Rodney King riots. The first significant point is this: [b]"The key to understanding why people riot is not poverty - it is injustice."[/b] In this case, the most pressing, acute injustice is that of police repression and institutional racism.

and, furthermore ...

Quote:
But of course, this would not be a sufficient condition by itself. There would also need to be a proximate cause - some abuse, some intolerable injustice by the forces of law and order - as well as an opportunity provided by a breakdown in policing (related, I have argued, to a wider breakdown of the police leadership and the discourses securing the unity of the state). Both of these conditions presented themselves here.

And we have that intolerable injustice of the police slaughter/gunning down of Mark Duggan.

Some of the right wing obscenities with this collective punishment/ neo-Nazi approach to social problems include:

1. evict the families of rioters from council housing. Wandsworth council has apparently already issued a family with an eviction notice. I'm not even sure how this can be legal. Other examples:

2. put a guy in jail for six months for 'looting' £3.50 worth of bottled water.

3. Jail a mother of two for accepting 'looted' shorts for five months - then gloat about it.

4. Arrest a 15 year old boy for a comment on Facebook.

This is the political right's approach. Arrest the government would be better. And maybe some "enhanced" interrogation for good measure.

Quote:
Clearly, this does nothing to prevent future riots. It's not supposed to. In all likelihood it will produce further rioting. But the point is to ensure that when it does, the ideological terrain is so prepared that people react to it as an outburst of raw feral energy rather than an intelligible response to injustice. Which means that in resisting the right's interpretation of the riots, the Left has a particularly urgent need to challenge the obscenities being processed through the criminal justice system at the moment.

1. Mother of man arrested is served with eviction notice

2. Six months in jail for stealing bottled water

3. Gloating about the arrest of a mother of two for accepting "looted" shorts

4. Arrest a 15-year-old boy for a comment on Facebook

 

Competing Common Senses of the Riots.

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

So, you could give a shit about the police murder of Mark Duggan, is that right?

Mr.Tea

While some have used social media to help fuel destruction, chaos and nihilistic random violence, it`s nice to see how it`s also being used for good.
89 year old Aaron Biber's barber shop in Tottenham, North London, was looted and wrecked.
He said he was shocked to find the damage:
"I came down here, the windows were smashed, the doors were smashed, everything was smashed in here. I couldn't stand it. I've been cutting hair since I was 12. It's my life. I could sell this shop in two minutes, but I don't want to sell it. I can come here and speak to people. I cut their hair. Whatever I earn, I earn. I'm not a greedy man. I don't worry about money."
Three interns from an advertising agency decided to use the power of social networks to try to help restore the shop, which had been open for 41 years. Letters of support and cheques have been pouring in, so far raising over 35,000 euros - much needed money, as the shop was not insured.
http://www.euronews.net/2011/08/14/social-networks-show-the-kindness-of-...

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Matthaios Tsimitakis: The Future Is Now – And It Doesn’t Look Good

quote:

I was trying to figure out how to talk to them, relate somehow with them and it seemed impossible, as I didn’t understand the code of communication they use. In front of me there was a huge carnival of attacks against property, a performance that corresponded to the parallel social structures that these kids have developed while excluded. They were not simpy “looting”. They were giving themselves to the idea of the attack against the system and its symbols. You could sense that they were all together braking through the barriers of control and discipline. But isn’t that a clear message?

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

WilderMore wrote:

So far the rioters have murdered 5 people (3 people in a hit-and-run - those perps were caught, 1 man shot, and 1 man beaten to death defending his house from looters).

The "rioters" each and everyone of them did those crimes?  So tell me on an average weekend in Britain how many people would have been killed in similar situations without the rioting?  Hit and runs I suspect would be fairly common.  Shootings and beatings cetainly not unusual in any given week.  But of course during a riot it is expected  that the criminal element that is always at work would be more restrained. (sarcasm alert)

Since 1998 there have been 333 deaths in police custody?  No concern over those deaths? 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/dec/03/deaths-police-custody-officers-...

WilderMore

So far the rioters have murdered 5 people (3 people in a hit-and-run - those perps were caught, 1 man shot, and 1 man beaten to death defending his house from looters).

 

ETA: And the police have murdered 1 man, which was the catalyst for the whole thing.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Give Our Kids a Future March Reports

08.13.2011 · Posted in London People's Assemblies, UK

Reports and photos from march (see also post “Londoners on the Riots”)

Very nice pictures here + reports from AWTW here Counterfire here & R2W here

North London Unity Assembly
13.8.2011: Statement from the NLUA organisers’ post-march de-brief

3,000 march through Hackney & Haringey on Saturday 13th August to demand:

On Saturday 13th August, 3,000 people of all ages and backgrounds, mainly from Hackney and Haringey, but with additional support from all around London, marched from Gillet Square, Dalston in Hackney, to Tottenham Green in Haringey. The march was organised and publicised just 2 days before by the hastily formed North London Unity Assembly initiated mainly by Turkish organisations and the Haringey and Hackney Anti-cuts Alliances [see list of some of the supporters at the end]....

Sven Sven's picture

Northern Shoveler wrote:

Sven wrote:

Eviction?  I wouldn't stop there.  In fact, based on a mere accusation of rioting (don't bother with actual convictions), I'd go directly to the execution of all family members...down to second and third cousins!

But, I did find Northern Shoveler's solution interesting: Confiscate the houses and flats of "the rich" and use those funds to pay for the damage.  Talk about collective punishment...

What only you can use sarcasm or where you being intentionally dense?

Well, if you had read as many threads on babble as I've read over the years, my comment wouldn't appear to be as "intentionally dense" as you may think.  "The rich" are commonly grouped into a monolithic class...and the thievery of a few (even though, proportionately, they're just like every other class) means that "the rich" as a class are all thieves.  That also qualifies as colletive punishment (or at least evidence of a desire for such), no?

Sven Sven's picture

ikosmos wrote:

Complain to the mods about Sven's joking about the deaths of others. Don't waste your time arguing with such tripe.

Is irony a difficult concept for you?

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

One thing I know: "the rich" grouped together in a monolithic class are a much smaller and much more dangerous group than "the poor" grouped together in a monolithic class.

Besides, it's hardly arbitrary. What's arbitrary about >$100 000/annum?

Sven Sven's picture

Catchfire wrote:

One thing I know: "the rich" grouped together in a monolithic class are a much smaller and much more dangerous group than "the poor" grouped together in a monolithic class.

Besides, it's hardly arbitrary. What's arbitrary about >$100 000/annum?

An income of $100,000.01 is "rich" and a person or family with that income is "dangerous," eh, Catchfire?

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Catchfire wrote:
One thing I know: "the rich" grouped together in a monolithic class are a much smaller and much more dangerous group than "the poor" grouped together in a monolithic class.

Eh, Sven?

Sven Sven's picture

Catchfire wrote:

Catchfire wrote:
One thing I know: "the rich" grouped together in a monolithic class are a much smaller and much more dangerous group than "the poor" grouped together in a monolithic class.

Eh, Sven?

Exactly.  You've "grouped together" people who make $100,000.01 with billionaires (or even people who make mere millions per year).

I've got news for you: Someone who makes $100,000.01 per year is a helluva lot closer to (and has more in common with) someone who makes $40,000 per year than the rich who actually have massive wealth.  If you think $100,000.01 is "rich" then you have no idea what "rich" really means.  No, they don't travel by private jet, they don't own big, profitable international companies, they couldn't live their lives in comfort by deciding to never work another day in their lives, they don't own yachts, they don't contribute tens of thousands of dollars to political candidates, they don't establish large trust funds for their children, they can't travel wherever they want whenever they want, etc.  And this isn't even to mention the really wealthy, like Gates, Cuban, the Waltons, Jay-Z, Oprah, Zuckerberg, Buffet, etc.

$100,000.01?  Are you serious, Catchfire???

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