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epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..where are the brexit demos?

Sean in Ottawa

David Davis said this:

"That means immediately seeking Free Trade Agreements with the biggest prospective markets as fast as possible. There is no reason why many of these cannot be achieved within two years. We can pick up the almost complete agreement between the EU and Canada, and if anything liberalise it. We can accelerate our component of the TTIP deal with the USA, and include financial services."

Sure looks like the presumption of a deal was part of the selling of Brexit -- No?

josh

We’re conditioning election results on what is posted in campaign circulars now?  Again, this issue did not sneak up on the British public overnight.  This was essentially a rerun of the 1975 referendum.  

Sean in Ottawa

josh wrote:

We’re conditioning election results on what is posted in campaign circulars now?  Again, this issue did not sneak up on the British public overnight.  This was essentially a rerun of the 1975 referendum.  

No we are busting the myth that people were told leave has nothing to do with having a deal or not.

What the campaigns said is actually quite relevant.

You could pretend that most people knew somethign else (whatever it is you want to pretend) but at the end of the day your argument would be defeated by the closeness of the vote. In other words not many people had to beleive that they were getting a deal as these campaigns claimed for the no vote to become a yes.

Don't like the uncertainty? Be in favour of a new vote.

josh

If the people had doubts, they had an easy option, vote remain.  We now need to get into the heads of some of the voters in order to uphold an election result?  Talk about a slippery slope.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..people were also very angry at europe. rightfully so and wanted to express that. that doesn't negate what people are feeling today. after giving it much thought.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Brexit Is A Never-Ending Story That Can Only Be Finished By Going Back To The People

They say there are seven stages of grief. The question is how many stages of Tory Brexit there are, and why they are all the same. 

Labour have moved through a number of stages ourselves – anger, denial (and an accompanying leadership challenge), then acceptance and planning. We were the first to recognise an implementation period would be required. We then went on to say a customs union was the only way to protect jobs and the Good Friday Agreement. The motion we passed at conference last September was a plan, a blueprint, for moving to a Brexit a majority of Brits could accept, or else a public vote.

But the Tories are dancing round unicorns ad infinitum. After two years of bluff and bluster, rotating Brexit secretaries and carved in stone red lines, we have a Brexit deal that even the Tory party – the party who are putting it forward – cannot stomach.

There is no majority for Theresa May’s Brexit. Not even close.  And barring an act of epic and collective self-destruction from this government, there is no majority for a no-deal Brexit either.

The government will not accept Labour’s proposals. There are no more options, apart from delay. But delay for what?

quote:

But the government don’t agree with themselves. And when the question is what the people want, and the government can’t agree, then it has to be for the people to make that decision. And the only way for the people to decide is through a General Election or a referendum.

Sean in Ottawa

josh wrote:

If the people had doubts, they had an easy option, vote remain.  We now need to get into the heads of some of the voters in order to uphold an election result?  Talk about a slippery slope.

Why are you pretending that the votes was a binding contract instead of a political excercise? Yes with a contract you can tell the people tough shit you signed but the people are supposed to own the political excercise and if they may have changed their minds based on the pile of new infomration and experience it is not democratic to tell them that they signed a contract in blood with the devil and should have thought twice about it.

The difference between a vote and a contract is that the government is supposed to follow the will of the people and can check whenever there is any doubt. The government never has to be sorry for checking and the people always have a right to a new opinion.

The rhetoric of likening the vote to a binding contract is far more anti-democratic than any harm a government can do by asking the people for clarification of what they want in light of all that has changed. The suggestion that this is about respecting the vote is a transparent lie. The truth is that people in favour of Brexit want "their" choice only to be respected even if the people want something else. This is not about respecting democracy this is about getting a bare yes and when things blow up after running away with it.

I do find it curious how many here want to line up agaisnt the democratic process and tell people that they should have thought about their vote more. Sickening really.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Last week & went to Veneto, the heartland of Italy's Lega Nord. Today, the plan is revealed. The fascists have agreed to help Britain exit without a deal. Salvini will block an extension of article 50. We're fucked.

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
Voters voting for Brexit did not all vote for a common idea of what Brexit would be -- they voted for what they were led to believe Brexit would be and for many, if not most, that was a negotiated deal not the chaos we are seeing.

Didn't they get a negotiated deal?

Whatever chaos we might be seeing isn't the result of the EU being unwilling to negotiate, it's from everyone having assumed that, magically, the deal negotiated would give every Briton everything they wish with no compromises required.

It's a peculiarity of all this that even as the negotiated deal was shot down in a legendary vote, there's nearly no discussion of what, specifically, was in that deal and what, specifically, makes it untenable. 

For two years now the Brexit deal has been used not as an opportunity to seek a favourable relationship with the EU prior to March 29, but as a way to either scuttle Brexit entirely, topple and replace the government, or both.  That's the chaos part.

Sean in Ottawa

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
Voters voting for Brexit did not all vote for a common idea of what Brexit would be -- they voted for what they were led to believe Brexit would be and for many, if not most, that was a negotiated deal not the chaos we are seeing.

Didn't they get a negotiated deal?

Whatever chaos we might be seeing isn't the result of the EU being unwilling to negotiate, it's from everyone having assumed that, magically, the deal negotiated would give every Briton everything they wish with no compromises required.

It's a peculiarity of all this that even as the negotiated deal was shot down in a legendary vote, there's nearly no discussion of what, specifically, was in that deal and what, specifically, makes it untenable. 

For two years now the Brexit deal has been used not as an opportunity to seek a favourable relationship with the EU prior to March 29, but as a way to either scuttle Brexit entirely, topple and replace the government, or both.  That's the chaos part.

The deal part is relevant otherwise you could ahve been correct.

The assumption is that a deal could be found without a hard broder with Ireland but all the customs advantages of having one.

The whole thing was built on contradictions.

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
The assumption is that a deal could be found without a hard broder with Ireland but all the customs advantages of having one.

None of the pre-referendum promises you listed make any mention of Ireland at all, nor does the "Why Vote Leave" site, which hasn't actually deleted it's info, just moved it.

 

NDPP

Prosper UK!

http://www.prosperuk.party/?i=1

"PROSPER-UK fills the gap left by the betrayal of the Labour and Conservative Parties and now the complete collapse of UKIP. We are the ONLY party of BREXIT, the only place those of us who believe in an indpendent UK have a choice..."

voice of the damned

From the Prosper UK website...

We give to the world more than we take

The UK has been generous with foreign aid and investment. When natural disaster strikes, we are often first in line volunteering assistance. We send .67% of our national income to developing countries around the globe. There is no doubt the UK is generous. Some would say overly so.

"Some would say overly so."

Of course, they're not saying that the UK should cut off foreign-aid, they're just mentioning that SOME people would say that. If anyone gets the idea that that's some sort of dog-whistle to the let-'em-all-starve crowd, well, gee whiz, that's just their interpretation, sheesh.

 

NDPP

The Week Brexit Was Betrayed (podcast)

https://www.spiked-online.com/podcast-episode/the-week-brexit-was-betrayed/

"Is May's deal dead? Is No Deal off the table? Will we ever leave the EU?"

 

'EU Court Rules in Favour of the ECB'

https://twitter.com/yanisvaroufakis/status/1106609514663559169

"The European Union Court rules in favour of the ECB - and against transparency and democracy in Europe."

NDPP

'We Love the EU!'

https://twitter.com/ohboywhatashot/status/1107225613356728320

" I take care of my rich friends."

NorthReport
NDPP

"Everyone I know in my village (a lot being such a small community) wants WTO membership instead of EU. I don't know one person who voted remain, wants an EU deal, or a 2nd referendum. They wanted Brexit 2 years ago and have been getting angrier by the day with the attempt to stop it."

https://twitter.com/kaldav43/status/1107345483066945537

bekayne

NDPP wrote:

"Everyone I know in my village (a lot being such a small community) wants WTO membership instead of EU. I don't know one person who voted remain, wants an EU deal, or a 2nd referendum. They wanted Brexit 2 years ago and have been getting angrier by the day with the attempt to stop it."

https://twitter.com/kaldav43/status/1107345483066945537

Maybe Jo should get out of their bubble once in a while.

NDPP

From the ARCHIVES (2015)

https://twitter.com/Cybrarian64/status/1107636256337465344

"How the EU operates  - lobbying/ Morning Star."

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Constitutional chaos after third vote on Brexit deal blocked

Theresa May’s government has been plunged into constitutional chaos after the Speaker blocked the prime minister from asking MPs to vote on her Brexit deal for a third time unless it had fundamentally changed.

With 11 days to go until Britain is due to leave the EU, May was forced to pull her plans for another meaningful vote because John Bercow said she could not ask MPs to pass the same deal, after they rejected it twice by huge margins. EU officials, meanwhile, were considering offering her a new date for a delayed Brexit to resolve the crisis.....

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

The polls are clear: our Labour Party could lead European socialism

If we stay in the EU, the Labour Party would be the leader of European socialism. A recent poll found that Labour would make significant gains if the UK took part in the European elections in May. Alongside predicted losses for Germany, Italy and France’s centre-left parties, this would make Labour by far the biggest delegation in the Socialist & Democrat Group. In other words, it would move the political group significantly to the left. We would be able to set the tone. We could make our European group more progressive. We could lead the fight against neoliberalism at home and abroad. For those in the Labour Party prevaricating over a second referendum, even over the European project, this matters.

Millions of people are convinced that socialism is the solution to our current angst, myself included. And when I say ‘our’, I’m looking through the lens of European politics as well as British. It’s not just the UK where austerity has torn apart the fabric of society, forcing people into Dickensian poverty – some of the worst effects of austerity have been felt in Greece, Spain and Portugal. Resistance to austerity and to the outdated model of neoliberal economics has risen in these countries too. A coordinated approach between our allies in these countries could prove a powerful coalition. Of course, there are those who argue that socialism could never exist in the EU and to them we must simply reply: Portugal......

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

josh

It’s not that socialism could never exist in the EU.  It’s that the EU could never be socialist .  Heck, it could never even be Keynesian.  All the window dressing parliaments in the world won’t change that.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

josh wrote:

It’s not that socialism could never exist in the EU.  It’s that the EU could never be socialist .  Heck, it could never even be Keynesian.  All the window dressing parliaments in the world won’t change that.

..i agree with this. but brexit isn't the answer direct democracy is. 

josh

That would defeat the whole purpose of the EU project.  It was set up to restrain democratic intervention in the economy by putting limits on member countries.  Even if the EU parliament were less toothless, it could not touch certain rules enshrined in the Maastricht Treaty.

NDPP

No Deal is Better Than a Brexit Delay Say Voters

https://twitter.com/labourleave/status/1107945309659906048

"Nearly half the British public is confident that the UK will ultimately thrive if it leaves the EU without a deal, according to a new poll..."

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

josh wrote:

That would defeat the whole purpose of the EU project.  It was set up to restrain democratic intervention in the economy by putting limits on member countries.  Even if the EU parliament were less toothless, it could not touch certain rules enshrined in the Maastricht Treaty.

..brexit isn't going to end neoliberalism within the uk nor is being in the eu. changing how we make decisions is our best chance of doing that. how we move forward at this point in time is what the debate is. and leave or stay is not the end result.

josh

Brexit will put the UK in control of its economic decision-making.  It will create the opportunity for a more interventionist economic policy.  That opportunity is severely restrained as long as it remains in the EU.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

josh wrote:

Brexit will put the UK in control of its economic decision-making.  It will create the opportunity for a more interventionist economic policy.  That opportunity is severely restrained as long as it remains in the EU.

..i disagree and have posted stuff to that effect.

NDPP

The EU is an elite construction run by multinational corporations and international banking cartels. No principled leftist should find themselves on the side of Goldman Sachs supporting its continued undemocratic domination of the British people who have overwhelmingly voted to leave it.

'The EU Clearly 'Don't Do' Democracy

https://twitter.com/purrfect1509/status/1106693710589448192

"Not looking good for a socialist Europe is it Labour Remainers? So much for EU reform even if we elect a Labour Gov."

https://twitter.com/alberttrigg/status/1104788255818559489

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..you placing leftish folk on the side of goldman sachs doesn't make it so. it's just an attack on people that you disagree with.

josh

Why would leftist folk side with capital is perhaps a better question.  I've never understood why folks on the left are willing to die on the hill that is the EU.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..your doing the same thing as ndpp is doing. as if leftish folk don't have a reasonable, independent point of view and agenda. well they do in fact and i posted here to that effect and you have ignored it. 

NDPP

Merkel 'Not Aware of 17th Century Rules' Stopping New Brexit Vote as Germany Begs 'Please Deliver'

https://on.rt.com/9qgz

"Merkel was referring to House of Commons Speaker John Bercow's citation that would block a third vote on May's Brexit deal, throwing her latest exit strategy into disarray..."

cco

josh wrote:

Brexit will put the UK in control of its economic decision-making.  It will create the opportunity for a more interventionist economic policy.  That opportunity is severely restrained as long as it remains in the EU.

Is the UK leaving the WTO and all other trade agreements that place similar constraints on its economic policy?

voice of the damned

cco wrote:
josh wrote:

Brexit will put the UK in control of its economic decision-making.  It will create the opportunity for a more interventionist economic policy.  That opportunity is severely restrained as long as it remains in the EU.

Is the UK leaving the WTO and all other trade agreements that place similar constraints on its economic policy?

On that note, I seem to recall a few years back that the WTO was one of the groups that the anti-globalization movement hated the most. In fact, the seminal action of the movement, the 1999 Seattle protests, were against that very organization.

But now they're being held up by the same anti-globalists as the last, best hope for the UK?

NDPP

It's true there's nothing much progressive about the WTO but it is the leading administrator of the global multi-lateral trading system of 164 countries (including Canada) and is the default trade regime administrator in this case.

https://www.wto.org

 

30 Truths About Leaving on WTO Terms

https://globalbritain.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/GBLL-paper-30-Tru...

"Why WTO offers a safer haven..."

josh

cco wrote:
josh wrote:

Brexit will put the UK in control of its economic decision-making.  It will create the opportunity for a more interventionist economic policy.  That opportunity is severely restrained as long as it remains in the EU.

Is the UK leaving the WTO and all other trade agreements that place similar constraints on its economic policy?

WTO governs trade.  It doesn't bar Keynesianism.

bekayne

NDPP wrote:

No Deal is Better Than a Brexit Delay Say Voters

https://twitter.com/labourleave/status/1107945309659906048

"Nearly half the British public is confident that the UK will ultimately thrive if it leaves the EU without a deal, according to a new poll..."

Says poll commissioned by (reads fine print) "Leave Means Leave"

josh

Well, I guess it balances out all those polls commissioned by the "people's vote" campaign that have been posted on here.

NDPP

And for those who aren't familiar with Leave Means Leave:

https://twitter.com/LeaveMnsLeave

voice of the damned

NDPP wrote:

And for those who aren't familiar with Leave Means Leave:

https://twitter.com/LeaveMnsLeave

Yes, I know who Nigel Farage is.

NDPP

Brexit Delayed? Theresa May to Request 'Short' Extension in Letter to EU

https://on.rt.com/9qil

"After repeated failures to get her EU divorce deal ratified in the British Parliament, Prime Minister Theresa May is expected to request a short delay to Brexit on Wednesday afternoon, just nine days before the March 29 deadline. "There will be no renegotiation, no new negotiation, no additional guarantees in addition to those already given,' European Commission head Jean-Claude Juncker said. We have intensively moved towards Britain, there can be no more."

 

No Deal is No Threat to Business

https://twitter.com/Phil_Mullan/status/1093136204139294720

"Economic Brexit bashing is becoming increasingly bizarre and absurd. But leaving the EU without a Withdrawal Agreement is not an economic threat to us..."

NDPP

May Asks EU To Delay Brexit Until June 30: 'Not Prepared to Delay Further' (and vid)

https://on.rt.com/9qj1

EU's Juncker insisted that a deal needs to be signed off before European Parliament elections on May 23...

josh

Last month:

Mrs May has insisted the departure date will not change, writing in the Telegraph that she would "deliver Brexit on time".

NorthReport

I trust the EC will say no to May's request for an extension.

NorthReport

The ERG tribes Theresa May must win over to pass her Brexit deal

Even if the DUP backs her plan, the PM must persuade sub-groups within the Tory faction

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/18/the-erg-tribes-theresa-may-must-win-over-to-pass-her-brexit-deal

NorthReport

Good for the EU 

Brexit news - live: EU escalates no-deal threat by torpedoing Theresa May extension request unless MPs back her deal

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-news-live-theresa-may-speech-delay-deal-latest-a8830991.html

josh

Yes, good for the EU.  Makes a March 29 exit more likely.

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