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NorthReport
NDPP

Unlike the EU which is doing so marvellously right now...?

The EU's Democratic Deficit: Why Brexit is Essential for Restoring Popular Sovereignty (2018)

https://www.thefullbrexit.com/the-eu-s-democratic-deficit

"...The European Union is an affront to democracy. The EU is better understood as a network of national governments that have retreated from their own populations into secretive agreements among themselves, insulating themselves from democratic accountability. Restoring popular sovereignty therefore means withdrawing from the EU." (2018)

That the CONs and failed Labour ultimately delivered a 'Boris'Brexit' doesn't negate the political and democratic necessity for the real thing.

 

NorthReport

The UK is so hooped!

F*** Business
The Story of how Corporate UK got Screwed by Brexit

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/brexit...

NorthReport
NDPP

'Without working people on our side, what does Labour even mean?'

https://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/article/f/without-working-people-on-...

"Regrettably, little progress appears to have been made, and it seems like many lessons have not been learnt. If Labour were to abandon the working communities from where its values were born to win back power, it would be a Pyrrhic victory at best - a total betrayal of the party's very soul..."

NDPization. 'A party of the working class led by the middle class in the interest of the ruling class.'

NorthReport
NorthReport

Political disaster on the UK horizon. 

josh

Labour could very well lose a seat they've held since 1964 tomorrow.  A pro-Corbyn Labourite running as an independent is taking 6%, although according to the poll the Labour candidate is trailing by far more.  By all rights, Starmer should step down if he loses this seat.

In the English elections, the big prize is Hartlepool, a struggling northern port city and Labour bastion where a new poll suggests that the Conservatives could win a bellwether seat in a parliamentary by-election.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/05/world/europe/uk-election-boris-johnson-scotland-independence.html

https://www.survation.com/new-phone-poll-places-conservatives-on-course-for-hartlepool-win/

nicky

Josh, you are quick to call for Starmer's resignation as leader if Labour loses in Hartlepool. 

Somehow I don't recall you calling for Corbyn to resign after getting thrashed in by-elections in seats Labour held since the '30s, in the locals or the Euro's.

Or after Corbyn's negatives soared to minus 65%. Starmer's approval is actually a little better than Johnson's at the moment.

Perhaps if you had called for Corbyn's departure he may have heeded your advice and spared Labour its worst general election defeat in 85 years.

Losing Hartlepool would be terrible for Labour but the overall results may not be that bad. Polling this week has Labour within 1 or 2 % of the Cons in the whole country. It stands to win London and Wales in a walk and may claw back to 2nd place in Scotland.

It barely won Hartepool last time because the Brexit Party drained off 25%, most of which is going Conservative in the by-election..

So let's wait for the results before calling for Starmer's head.

josh

Labour loses Hartlepool in a landslide.

To be clear, this was a seat Labour held since 1964, and won it under Corbyn twice.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/07/hartlepool-byelection-result-labour-starmer-conservatives

Momentum, the Labour group set up to support Jeremy Corbyn and his agenda when he was party leader, has released a statement describing the Hartlepool result as a “disaster”. Andrew Scattergood, the Momentum co-chair, said:

This result is a disaster. In 2017, we won over 50% of the vote in Hartlepool. 

67% of voters in the constituency want to increase investment in public services, 57% agree with taking Royal Mail into public ownership, and 69% support free broadband.

A transformative socialist message has won in Hartlepool before, and it would have won again.

Starmer’s strategy of isolating the left and replacing meaningful policy with empty buzzwords has comprehensively failed. If he doesn’t change direction, not only will he be out of a job - but the Labour party may be out of government forever.

josh
josh

Exclusive polling for @Channel4News by @JLPartnersPolls shows the top reason given for not voting Labour in elections in England yesterday was Sir Keir Starmer's leadership.

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1390724467383472130?s=20

 

Ken Burch

What happened Thursday- massive Labour losses all across the country-other than places where the party had a left leader who couldn't be forced to reduce the party to standing for nothing, such as in Wales and in the local elections in Preston- prove, beyond a doubt, that Starmer's obsession with purging the party of everyone even remotely associated with Corbyn, refusing to offer policies, and creating the universal impression that the party was going to be "centrist"(i.e. Tory) has been an absolute failure.

Corbyn is not the issue, he's been out of the leadership for over a year and none of his ideals, or any other principles at all, survive in Starmer's "Labour"- there is no way what Starmer is doing, if he's had this result this week, can ever reap benefits for the party in the future.

He needs to stop treating socialists as the enemy and socialism as poison.  And the suspension of Corbyn needs to end- nobody was demanding that the man be made into a pariah.

NorthReport

The Conservatives could run a buffoon and win. Actually they did and he won. The right is so much smarter politically than the left. The infighting within Labour has basically destroyed them as having any kind of political relevance for the indefinite future

josh

The fact is, under Keir Starmer’s leadership the party has lost more than 100,000 members. It has waged a war on party democracy, shut down internal debate, and suspended not just activists but CLP chairs and secretaries en masse. It has closed Labour’s Community Organising Unit and sacked its community organisers. And it has landed Labour in a funding crisis which hamstrung campaigns across the country by driving away the army of small donors which sustained it in recent years . . . .

But despite this, the Corbyn-bashing isn’t likely to end anytime soon. In fact, Starmer’s failure in these elections and his dismal poll ratings will only make him lurch further rightwards still. His leadership team are convinced that the best thing they have done in the past year has been marginalising the Left, and the problem in these elections has been that the Left hasn’t been marginalised enough.

https://tribunemag.co.uk/2021/05/labours-election-defeats-are-keir-starmers-disaster

NorthReport

“You don’t say, ‘I take full responsibility’ and then sack your deputy [as party chair].”

 - the guardian

josh

As mentioned above, Starmer will use his miserable performance in a seat Corbyn carried twice to try to move the party further right.  Sacking Rayner is just an indication of that.

josh

Jon Trickett and Ian Lavery, both former Labour campaign co-ordinators, told the Sunday Times: “We face total obliteration if a cabal of middle-class remainers continue to treat what was once Labour’s core support with contempt. https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-angela-rayner-sacked-rol...

robbie_dee

The UK is done. Time for Scotland to go (and Ireland to reunite, probably).

NorthReport

Agreed.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

Michael Walker and Ash Sarkar discuss the latest polls, which show that Keir Starmer is even less popular than Corbyn was at the same stage of his leadership. This despite the fact that Corbyn was relentlessly smeared by the media, while Starmer has been treated with kid gloves. What a loser.

Ken Burch

Michael Moriarity wrote:

Michael Walker and Ash Sarkar discuss the latest polls, which show that Keir Starmer is even less popular than Corbyn was at the same stage of his leadership. This despite the fact that Corbyn was relentlessly smeared by the media, while Starmer has been treated with kid gloves. What a loser.

Yet Starmer and Mandleson are STILL pushing the "it's all Corbyn's fault" canard.

They don't care that what happened last Thursday proves that the voters were not demanding that Labour repudiate everything it supported from 2015 to 2019 or make a fetish out of anathemising the person who led it in those years.

It's time to move on on that and admit, purging everyone who won't denounce Corbyn on command, a return to "the centre ground"- a centre ground the stagnation of LibDem support on Thursday proves no longer exists- or taking a hardline, right-wing Unionist stance on Scotland are never going to produce a Labour comeback.

They further prove that the "Labour would be twenty points ahead with ANY OTHER LEADER" claim was bullshit- and probably, that everyone who endlessly chanted that phrase knew it was bullshit when chanting it.

If Starmer actuall WANTS a Labour victory- he may not; his actions suggest he was put in place as leader specifically to destroy the party as an electoral force- these are the things he has to do:

1) Keep his pledge never to move the party to the right of the 2017 manifesto;

2) Keep his pledge to support and EXPAND internal party democracy, rather than continuing to suppress it;

3) End what is clearly a deliberate ban on left-wingers of any sort being nominated as Labour candidates anywhere- the party only won with an increased plurality in Wales because it's leader there, Mark Drakeford, defied Starmer on that and on Starmer's insistence that Labour campaign WITHOUT offering policies;

4) Readmit Corbyn to the PLP.  He should never have been suspended; he did nothing to deserve the suspension; what happened on Thursday proves that suspending him was never going to increase Labour support at the polls; and even if he did make some mistakes as leader- nobody ever claimed he was flawless, including himself- he's been punished enough for whatever mistakes he made;

5) Reverse the purges and reach out to the 100,000 former party members who tore up their cards in disgust and despair about a leader who did nothing in his first year but attack them and everything they stand for.  It is not a crime to be a left-winger and there is no decent reason for what is supposed to be the left-of-centre party ever to make people unwelcome just for BEING left of centre;

6)  Admit that the PLP was wrong for spending four years refusing to accept Corbyn as leader, that they did nothing but damage in doing so, that there was no justification for their relentless accusations of softness on AS towards him and his supporters- as events now prove, non-Zionism has NOTHING in common with AS and as events now prove, it is now all-but-impossible for a decent human being to support Zionism in the permanently right-wing form it has corroded into;

7) Stop refusing to offer policies.  Starmer should have known Labour could never do well in the local elections OR in the Holyrood elections by refusing to offer policies during those election campaigns- it was never going to be possible for Labour to win simply by saying the Tories were sleazy or corrupt, especially when Labour itself was back under the iron fist of its own right wing, the only sector of the party where corruption and sleaze ever dwell.

josh

If they're pushing that canard, they'll have to explain why Labour won the seat twice with Corbyn at the helm.

nicky

Ah yes, if only Labour were to return to the agonies of Corbyn's leadership evverything would be good...

Starmer has had his travails, no doubt. The North of England is a problem as the working class is drifting to the right as it has in any number of other democracies. But Labour did quite well in Wales, London and the South.

And yesterday Labour got 7% more in a Scottish by-election that it got with Corbyn in that same seat.

https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2021/05/14/lab-gets...

As for the return of Corbyn, here is a poll out today that shows that 62% think he would be a worse leader than Starmer. 15 % think he would be better.

https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2021/05/14/one-in-n...

When broken down only 7% think Corbyn would be "much better" than Starmer and 52% think he would be "much worse."

I surmise, Josh and Ken, that you and a few of your friends comprise that 7%. 

Ken Burch

I wasn't saying Corbyn should be leader again...by "reinstate", you knew perfectly well I was simply saying his suspension from the PLP needs to end...and you have no reason to keep acting as if that's even a possibility...but clearly what happened last Thursday proves that the voters are never going to reward the party for abandoning the policies of his era-all of which were popular in the polls, btw.

There is no massive popular demand for Labour to lower itself to Blairism again, nicky.  That is the fact and you have got to accept it.

We now have proof, in the local and Holyrood elections, that Starmer's brutal, merciless vendetta against not only Corbyn but, apparently, everyone who was even tangentially connected to the man- a purge which has gone to the ridiculous extreme of entirely-Gentile Labour disciplinary bodies suspending or expelling Jewish party members for antisemitism-a crime no Jewish person can ever actually commit- has been a pointless waste of time.

josh

Labour has problems in the north because remainers like Starmer insisted on nullifying the referendum vote.  When Labour did not insist on a new vote in 2017, it got its highest vote total in 16 years with Corbyn as leader.  Labour remainers acting like Trump Republicans by refusing to accept the verdict of an election has damaged the party immeasurably.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

josh wrote:

Labour has problems in the north because remainers like Starmer insisted on nullifying the referendum vote.  When Labour did not insist on a new vote in 2017, it got its highest vote total in 16 years with Corbyn as leader.  Labour remainers acting like Trump Republicans by refusing to accept the verdict of an election has damaged the party immeasurably.

It seems almost beyond question that this is the most important factor in Labour's loss of the Red Wall constituencies in 2019. Corbyn's biggest mistake, in my opinion, was not to have simply agreed to Theresa May's first brexit deal, and got it over with. Instead, he allowed himself to be bullied into approving a second referendum by the Starmers of the PLP.

Ken Burch

To clarify for anyone who may have been misled by nicky's intentional misinterpretation of my post, I was not calling for Corbyn to be restored as leader- there is no chance of that and everyone knows Corbyn will never seek the leader ship again- even nicky knows that- I was simply saying he should be restored to the PLP whip.  

nicky, you have no reason at all to imply that Corbyn will try and take the party away from Starmer unless he's kept in pariah status.  Give that particular lie a rest.

in response to Michael's post, yes- everybody in the Labour Party knows that Starmer's insistence on forcing Corbyn to pledge a second referendum if elected- followed by Starmer's refusal to leave it at that and his further and even more unjustified push to try and make Corbyn fight for a second referendum to be held BEFORE the next election- even though nicky and everyone else knows that could never have been made to happen- was the actual reason Labour lost 50 seats in what had been the "Red Wall".

Red Wall voters are overwhelmingly and unchangeably Leave.  Once Starmer forced Corbyn to accept the second referendum, once Starmer forced the party to disrespect and disregard all Labour Leave voters, the Red Wall was doomed.   Neither Corbyn nor any possible replacement for Corbyn could ever possibly have been able to offer anything that could possibly have retained the votes of Red Wall voters after the second referendum pledge was made.  

That is why the relentless repetition of the myth that the result was solely because of Corbyn's shortcomings and his policies-even though the polls showed that his policies were popular and that there were no possible alternative Labour policies to the right of the 2017/19 policies that could ever have been popular with the voters- remember, Labour has lost 117 seats altoghether in the 2010 and 2015 elections- including the complete and possibly permanent loss of Labour support in Scotland in 2015 due to the Westminster Labour Right's insistence on joining the essentially Thatcherite Better Together campaign in the Indyref and the same Westminster Labour Right's refusal to accept the reality that, if Labour was to survive in Scotland, it was going to have to be allowed to establish its own identity, create its own policies, choose its candidates without any interference from London and to support "Devo Max" as a viable alternative to Scottish independence. 

As I've repeatedly pointed out, the 2010/15 losses prove that there is no route to a Labour revival based on moving back to the now-nonexistent "centre ground" or making it clear that young activists will no longer be welcome in the party to play any role other than doing what Starmer bloody well tells them to do- especially since what he is telling most of them to do is to just go away.

The May 6th results proved that every part of Starmer's "strategy" -  exiling the Left, crushing every vestige of internal democracy, equating ANY criticism of what the Israeli government does to Palestinians, including the ethnic cleansing going on in Sheikh Jarrah with AS- has failed.  All of it.  Every bit.

It's time for Keir to admit it and either change or get out of the way.  If he stays on, there is a good chance Labour will cease to exist by the next GE.  The Green vote to 7% this time-  if Keir keeps on this way, it could easily rise to at least 14% at the next locals(at that level,  the Greens will be competitive against Labour in by-elections- and 21% at the locals after and possibly in the N.I. Assembly- at that point, you'd see the Greens start taking control of multiple councils.  The only thing that can happen once that cycle starts is that Labour faces even bigger wipeouts- it lost over 300 local council seats this year;  Care to see the losses get closer to 400 or 500 at the next go-round?

JKR

Michael Moriarity wrote:

josh wrote:

Labour has problems in the north because remainers like Starmer insisted on nullifying the referendum vote.  When Labour did not insist on a new vote in 2017, it got its highest vote total in 16 years with Corbyn as leader.  Labour remainers acting like Trump Republicans by refusing to accept the verdict of an election has damaged the party immeasurably.

It seems almost beyond question that this is the most important factor in Labour's loss of the Red Wall constituencies in 2019. Corbyn's biggest mistake, in my opinion, was not to have simply agreed to Theresa May's first brexit deal, and got it over with. Instead, he allowed himself to be bullied into approving a second referendum by the Starmers of the PLP.

I thought that too. Corbyn should have bit the bullet and struck some kind of a deal with May. I think Corbyn's biggest weakness is being a maverick who is unable to make deals and work with other politicians. I think Corbyn's a divider not a uniter.

Ken Burch
JKR

Under Brexit the UK seems to be in disarray!

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Hostile UK border regime traumatises visitors from EU

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Britain’s hostile regime for potential EU migrants is traumatising visitors caught in its web and provoking further worries for European families receiving visits from relatives, according to accounts provided to the Guardian.

The slightest suspicion that someone may be entering Britain to work is often enough for them to be locked up, held at detention centres for up to a week and then expelled to wherever they have travelled from, some of those caught up by the policy have said. Complaints from relatives and host families in the UK have either gone unanswered or been ignored by the Home Office and some local MPs, they say.

An Italian NHS consultant told of his horror when his niece arrived from Italy for a short visit but ended up in a detention centre surrounded by barbed wire.

----------------

nicky

No Ken, I do not ascribe to you a desire that Corbyn regain the leadership. I accept that such an appalling prospect is too ridiculous even for you to embrace.

In citing the polling that the great majority thinks Corbyn was a "much worse" leader than Starmer it is to emphasize how utterly disastrous it would be for Labour to embrace not just Corbyn but "Corbynism." I trust you agree.

 

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

nicky wrote:

No Ken, I do not ascribe to you a desire that Corbyn regain the leadership. I accept that such an appalling prospect is too ridiculous even for you to embrace.

In citing the polling that the great majority thinks Corbyn was a "much worse" leader than Starmer it is to emphasize how utterly disastrous it would be for Labour to embrace not just Corbyn but "Corbynism." I trust you agree.

 

As usual, everything you write is disingenuous. This never was, and never will be, a matter of the comparative personalities of Corbyn, Starmer, or any other potential Labour leader. It has been, and will remain to be about their respective policies. It is true that Corbyn was rendered extremely unpopular by a years long smear campaign waged by essentially every powerful person and organization in the UK. Starmer has suffered no such attacks, but is even more unpopular.

That is not the point. The point is that Corbyn's socialist policies were and remain extremely popular, while Starmer scarcely has any policies except to suck up to billionaires. Now, I realize that such worship of the wealthy would seem to be the only realistic policy to someone with your (Hill & Knowlton style) views, but not to anyone left of Liberal. As always, you are an obvious fake, nicky.

nicky

Michael, what is "fake" is your claim that Starmer is more unpopular fhan Corbyn. The poll i cited  found that C was "much worse" than S by a margin of 52 to 7. It is consistent as far as I am aware will all other polling.

If you have seen something to the contrary please provide a link.

nicky

Michael, what is "fake" is your claim that Starmer is more unpopular fhan Corbyn. The poll i cited  found that C was "much worse" than S by a margin of 52 to 7. It is consistent as far as I am aware will all other polling.

If you have seen something to the contrary please provide a link.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

Post 1,122:

Michael Moriarity wrote:

Michael Walker and Ash Sarkar discuss the latest polls, which show that Keir Starmer is even less popular than Corbyn was at the same stage of his leadership. This despite the fact that Corbyn was relentlessly smeared by the media, while Starmer has been treated with kid gloves. What a loser.

josh

Conservatives open up a 13 point lead on Labour.

https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1393688443620843520?s=20

 

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