Venezuela

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iyraste1313

 

 

 

 

 

Marchan en Venezuela para respaldar al pdte. Nicolás Maduro (March in the Stae of Falcon in support of Maduro Government)

    En el estado Falcón (noroeste), la población marchó "haciendo valer su dignidad y amor por la patria", dijo el gobernador Víctor Clark.

    En el estado Falcón (noroeste), la población marchó "haciendo valer su dignidad y amor por la patria", dijo el gobernador Víctor Clark. | Foto: @vclarkb

    Meanwhile at the cbc.ca...

    Venezuelans hold mass walkout against Maduro...cbc.ca world

     

    laine lowe laine lowe's picture

    Boo, hiss, CBC and the rest of the mainstream western press.

    josh

    The Trump Administration has apparently decided to embark on a large-scale interventionist campaign to reverse supposed undue influence of Russia, China, and Iran in Latin America. Venezuela and Cuba are the first targets, and Nicaragua is next on the list.

    https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2019/01/venezuela-coup-attempt-part-of-us-plan-to-remake-latin-america.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    WWWTT
    WWWTT
    josh

    So typical.  The U.S. alienates a country and then acts all shocked and suprised when that country turns to other powers for aid.

    montgomery

    I wonder if Palladin can tell us if the US is going to attempt to make this a Nato operation? Nato should be able to summon up some legitimacy for interference because of Russia and China's support for Maduro!! 

    kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

    WWWTT wrote:

    Bull shit link, but it does provide an insight!

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/11/19/us-military-targets-growing-russian...

     If you read through the double speak there are some interesting facts in the article.

     

    montgomery

    kropotkin1951 wrote:

    WWWTT wrote:

    Bull shit link, but it does provide an insight!

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/11/19/us-military-targets-growing-russian...

     If you read through the double speak there are some interesting facts in the article.

     

    You're right! I wonder if WWWTT is able to separate the wheat from the chaff? I'm abit appalled at learning that some oldtime solid NDP'ers are lagging behind the curve on international politics. But rather than trying to exclude their voices we must try to bring them up to speed.

    Sean in Ottawa

    montgomery wrote:

    kropotkin1951 wrote:

    WWWTT wrote:

    Bull shit link, but it does provide an insight!

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/11/19/us-military-targets-growing-russian...

     If you read through the double speak there are some interesting facts in the article.

     

    But rather than trying to exclude their voices we must try to bring them up to speed.

    A person who could write something like this is clearly incapable of listening and therefore has nothing to impart.

    montgomery

    Sean in Ottawa wrote:

    montgomery wrote:

    kropotkin1951 wrote:

    WWWTT wrote:

    Bull shit link, but it does provide an insight!

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/11/19/us-military-targets-growing-russian...

     If you read through the double speak there are some interesting facts in the article.

     

    But rather than trying to exclude their voices we must try to bring them up to speed.

    A person who could write something like this is clearly incapable of listening and therefore has nothing to impart.

    If that's another shot at me then you're trying to take what I said out of context by quoting me only partially. So I'll repost what I did say: 

    Quote:
    You're right! I wonder if WWWTT is able to separate the wheat from the chaff? I'm abit appalled at learning that some oldtime solid NDP'ers are lagging behind the curve on international politics. But rather than trying to exclude their voices we must try to bring them up to speed.

    Or in other words, there are quite a few people posting on this board who are quite openly supportive of both Nato and the US, or either/or. I find that to be terribly behind the curve and ill-informed. 

    So I've offered to hear the private opinions of anyone who is in disagreement with my personal philosophy. There could be a reason why I should back off somewhat, even though I can't imagine why that would be?. I hear n public criticism of my positions vis a vis the US or nato, but maybe somebody has something they would like to share in private?

    Sean in Ottawa

    montgomery wrote:

    Sean in Ottawa wrote:

    montgomery wrote:

    kropotkin1951 wrote:

    WWWTT wrote:

    Bull shit link, but it does provide an insight!

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/11/19/us-military-targets-growing-russian...

     If you read through the double speak there are some interesting facts in the article.

     

    But rather than trying to exclude their voices we must try to bring them up to speed.

    A person who could write something like this is clearly incapable of listening and therefore has nothing to impart.

    If that's another shot at me then you're trying to take what I said out of context by quoting me only partially. So I'll repost what I did say: 

    Quote:
    You're right! I wonder if WWWTT is able to separate the wheat from the chaff? I'm abit appalled at learning that some oldtime solid NDP'ers are lagging behind the curve on international politics. But rather than trying to exclude their voices we must try to bring them up to speed.

    Or in other words, there are quite a few people posting on this board who are quite openly supportive of both Nato and the US, or either/or. I find that to be terribly behind the curve and ill-informed. 

    So I've offered to hear the private opinions of anyone who is in disagreement with my personal philosophy. There could be a reason why I should back off somewhat, even though I can't imagine why that would be?. I hear n public criticism of my positions vis a vis the US or nato, but maybe somebody has something they would like to share in private?

    Perhaps some people here won't care to be judged, educated by some random narcissist who just got here?

    kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

    Sean and I have had some "disagreements" as have many posters on this board however we actually learn things from each other. Monto what you don't get is that your opinion of the other people on this board is worthless because nobody fucking cares. You are a disruptive influence on this board because of your display of symptoms of a rare internet disorder called trollism. You are here to provoke and derail.

    If you would like to concentrate on your opinion of the actual content of threads it would be appreciated. What about the article caught your attention that you thought was worth passing on? That is the normal way of posting here. I encouraged people to read it because it had some good facts in it, you insulted others.

    montgomery

    kropotkin1951 wrote:

    Sean and I have had some "disagreements" as have many posters on this board however we actually learn things from each other. Monto what you don't get is that your opinion of the other people on this board is worthless because nobody fucking cares. You are a disruptive influence on this board because of your display of symptoms of a rare internet disorder called trollism. You are here to provoke and derail.

    If you would like to concentrate on your opinion of the actual content of threads it would be appreciated. What about the article caught your attention that you thought was worth passing on? That is the normal way of posting here. I encouraged people to read it because it had some good facts in it, you insulted others.

    Kropotkin, as with the two other threads, I'm ending my part in  the discussion on your petty diagreements with me in order to take away your coming attempt to blame me for disrupting the threads. If you wish to continue, do so via p.m.

    There, I'll feel safe, and be happy to point out some of the people by name who are very far behind the curve on international politics. Have a nice day! 

    Sean in Ottawa

    montgomery wrote:

    kropotkin1951 wrote:

    Sean and I have had some "disagreements" as have many posters on this board however we actually learn things from each other. Monto what you don't get is that your opinion of the other people on this board is worthless because nobody fucking cares. You are a disruptive influence on this board because of your display of symptoms of a rare internet disorder called trollism. You are here to provoke and derail.

    If you would like to concentrate on your opinion of the actual content of threads it would be appreciated. What about the article caught your attention that you thought was worth passing on? That is the normal way of posting here. I encouraged people to read it because it had some good facts in it, you insulted others.

    Kropotkin, as with the two other threads, I'm ending my part in  the discussion on your petty diagreements with me in order to take away your coming attempt to blame me for disrupting the threads. If you wish to continue, do so via p.m.

    There, I'll feel safe, and be happy to point out some of the people by name who are very far behind the curve on international politics. Have a nice day! 

    Offering in public to badmouth people on this board by private message might be a good reason for your account to be deep sixed.

    Since you have only been here such a short time. Why don't you consider a few hours at least to consider your reception here and the words of the many people you have already attacked, derided and insulted in your brief time here? Maybe you could consider a different approach. Maybe even consider keeping your opinion about your superiority private and engaging with a little bit of respect?

    It is possible that this might be the only way that you avoid either being banned altogether or permanently destroying any chance of engagement with anyone here.

    NDPP

    BAR: Trump, Democrats and International Fascists Attack Venezuela

    https://blackagendareport.com/freedom-rider-trump-democrats-and-internat...

    "Trump's attempt to overflow the Venezuelan government has been joined by fellow fascists around the world, including most of the Democratic Party..."

    And Canada.

    montgomery

    NDPP wrote:

    BAR: Trump, Democrats and International Fascists Attack Venezuela

    https://blackagendareport.com/freedom-rider-trump-democrats-and-internat...

    "Trump's attempt to overflow the Venezuelan government has been joined by fellow fascists around the world, including most of the Democratic Party..."

    And Canada.

    So true! Have you heard of Nato being summoned up yet in order to legitimize the US war plans? It's not so much as it being the South Pacific and not the North Atlantic, but the enemy bullshit again being the Russians and the Chinese! 

    NDPP

    George Galloway on Venezuela (and vid)

    https://twitter.com/georgegalloway/status/1091056473722011649

    US opens the gates of hell and 'a new Vietnam.'

    Ottawa collaborates.

    NDPP

    Our odious American sock-puppet and his FM hard at work on Venezuelan regime change

    https://twitter.com/dimitrilascaris/status/1091115181541937152

    "Over the past week Justin Trudeau has repeatedly issued statements like these in which he reveals to have spoken to some Western leaders about Venezuela. Does Trudeau have nothing better to do than help Trump and Bolsonaro orchestrate a coup in Venezuela."

    WWWTT

    Good point! Sounds like a diversion from Ms Meng 

    NDPP

    President Maduro Addresses the American People (and vid)

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/51012.htm

    "Don't let Trump start a Vietnam war in Venezuela."

    montgomery

    NDPP wrote:

    President Maduro Addresses the American People (and vid)

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/51012.htm

    "Don't let Trump start a Vietnam war in Venezuela."

    Oh how sad! Doesn't he know that of the few Americans that hear him (very few), they will see him a a little off-white Hispanic looking guy who is so arrogant that he doubts the righteousness of America.

    Neither of their two political parties are going to be sympathetic either. Maybe if he appealed to Trump's vanity he could be onto something? Like tell Trump that only he can stop this coming war.

    With this one comes the next crisis situation where the US spits in the faces of both China and Russia. The side of right seems to have come out ahead in Syria but this one is deep in the US's sphere of influence. If the US doesn't ensure a win in Venezuela then it could be their last chance. It's going to be more difficult for the US from this point onward.

    The US didn't move fast enough with it's PNAC agenda and then it's further hegemony over S. American countries. Now Russia and China have 'practically' slammed the window of opportunity shut! 

    montgomery

    The future of the world's small countries is in a big nuclear power brother having their backs. The US being able to run roughshod over the world has come to an end.

    So I suggest that rather then: Venezuela, the party is over.

    it should read:

    The United States, the party is over.

    It's not how big a nuclear power big brother is or has to be, it's all about MAD, which the US understands as well as the other nuclear powers. 

    This is why, in my opinion, it's of little consequence that North Korea now has the nuclear deterrent to US aggression. China has their back and North Korea, or later, the unified Koreas, don't need nukes.

    We all hope that the US doesn't get Venezuela soon enough to be able to upstage Russia and China. (or at least we hope all NDP'ers hope?)

    Personally, I would feel a lot better if Russia and China made a loud statement to the effect that the US better keep their hands off Cuba. 

    NDPP

    TRNN: New Oil Sanctions on Venezuela 'Would Destroy What's Left of its Economy'

    https://youtu.be/MivSAKny9Y0

    "It will kill a lot of people..."

    So, another criminal coup by USA, and your own government is complict, boldly and in-your-face. "It will kill a lot of people." What will you do about it Canucklhead?

    NDPP

    "The Democratic Front For Liberation of Palestine holds a vigil in Gaza City in support of Venezuela's President Nicolas Maduro."

    https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1089875114198515717

    Free Palestine! Free Venezuela! The people united will never be defeated!

    NDPP

    CrossTalk: Venezuela Targeted (and vid)

    https://www.rt.com/shows/crosstalk/450310-venezuela-caracas-government-m...

    "Washington's forced regime-change strategy targeting Venezuela continues unabated. Everything is going to plan. First, sanction the country in ways that punish the poor. Second, back a so-called interim president in Caracas. Third, deny the legitimate government of its export revenues. Is the use of force next?"

    josh
    josh

    The future of Venezuela is a matter for Venezuelans. 's call for more sanctions on Venezuela is wrong. We oppose outside interference in Venezuela, whether from the US or anywhere else.

    https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1091370347650260992

    josh

    Venezuelan opposition leader Juan Guaido says he's respectfully declining offers from the presidents of Mexico and Uruguay to negotiate with President Nicolas Maduro.

    https://abcnews.go.com/beta-story-container/International/wireStory/venezuelas-gauido-rejects-mexico-uruguay-offers-mediate-60780485

    NDPP

    Venezuela - Coup Attempt Part of a Larger Project - Military Intervention Likely To Fail

    https://t.co/VIs6jB6ig2

    "The Trump administration's broader aim is to gain leverage over Cuba and curb recent inroads in the region by Russia, Iran and China. The plan includes regime change in Venezuela, Nicaragua and eventually Cuba. It is a multi-year project that has bipartisan support and will likely require military force."

    montgomery

    WWWTT wrote:

    I seriously doubt the US will go to war with Venezuela over some diplomats. If so they would have done it already. 

    I speculate Venezuela will call their bluff

    The only way the US will be denied Venezuela is if Russia and China offer their threat of MAD. Otherwise, the US will arm the opposition and send covert support that will be enough to defeat Maduro's military. 

    It may be too soon for Russia and China to put up a defensive strategy of the sort that saved Syria, being Venezuela is likely too close to the US to be defended. 

    There could be a tradeoff offered with North Korea. Or more to the point, the Koreas. 

    Undoubtedly this isn't just another US cakewalk over another victim country.

    NDP'ers, know thy enemy!

    josh

    I don't think they're interested in a civil war, which would really destabalize the region.  They prefer a military coup, who would then hand the reigns to their annoited president.  Probably trying to buy off as many officers as possible as we speak.

    kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

    The Venezuelan people will rise up in the streets if this fake President tries to cease control of the government by force. There will be a civil war if that was to happen. In Canada we are overwhelmed with propaganda decrying the democratically elected government as a dictatorship. The people of Venezuela have more diversity in their media coverage than we do and the vast majority in polls say hands off our country and our oil.

    NDPP

    The Jimmy Dore Show

    https://youtu.be/6chIn6JRjBA

    "Bernie's disappointing Venezuela Tweet."

    montgomery

    kropotkin1951 wrote:

    The Venezuelan people will rise up in the streets if this fake President tries to cease {seize}  control of the government by force. There will be a civil war if that was to happen. In Canada we are overwhelmed with propaganda decrying the democratically elected government as a dictatorship. The people of Venezuela have more diversity in their media coverage than we do and the vast majority in polls say hands off our country and our oil.

    You are exactly on message IMO! 

    I only wish I had your confidence in 'right will out'.

    Venezuela's people cannot do it alone and this is a huge test case for the US. I'm sure you can see all that is implied with Russia/China's support opposing US support for the criminal side.

    josh
    montgomery

    And RT.com reports today that Trump has announced that the military option is on the  table.

    I think we need to encourage dialogue on issues such as Venezuela because Canadians are quite amazingly, not getting the truth that it's not Russia that is the aggressor running roughshod over the world, it is the US!

    I'm always going to invite those who don't believe that's so to speak their minds. I'm offering some persuasion, without abuse, to see things in their proper light.

    WWWTT

    I don't think the US will get militarily involved in Venezuela for the simple fact of climate and tropical thick vegetation. It would favour guerilla warfare putting the US at an disadvantage.

    Also, it could seriously backfire! Anti US left leaning politicians across south central America could get a real strong boost. At this point I'm not entirely sure that the right wing facists across the region are deep rooted?

    montgomery

    WWWTT wrote:

    I don't think the US will get militarily involved in Venezuela for the simple fact of climate and tropical thick vegetation. It would favour guerilla warfare putting the US at an disadvantage.

    Also, it could seriously backfire! Anti US left leaning politicians across south central America could get a real strong boost. At this point I'm not entirely sure that the right wing facists across the region are deep rooted?

    You might be right. The US may just offer covert support militarily, with supply of weapons, and leave the dirty work to the rebels. 

    But I think there's one thing we can be assured of and that is that Venezuela is hugely important to the US and they won't allow it to slip into Russia/China's hands. Two important factors: Venezuela's oil resources and it being within the US sphere of influence. 

    China/Russia may set this up as a trade-off for the Koreas.

    WWWTT

    I don’t think China and Russia will back down. At most buy time. 

    China has 2 aircraft carriers operating but I believe they plan on 5 full sized state of the art vessels operating by 2025(or something like that). Possibly more? And I believe they’re probably eyeing at setting up a navy base in Venezuela, a carrier or two would provide that support. 

    This would give China and Russia military reach right at the US. 

    If there was a trade off, it would have to be way more than Korea!

    montgomery

    WWWTT wrote:

    I don’t think China and Russia will back down. At most buy time. 

    China has 2 aircraft carriers operating but I believe they plan on 5 full sized state of the art vessels operating by 2025(or something like that). Possibly more? And I believe they’re probably eyeing at setting up a navy base in Venezuela, a carrier or two would provide that support. 

    This would give China and Russia military reach right at the US. 

    If there was a trade off, it would have to be way more than Korea!

     

    IN these sort of conversations I always keep in mind MAD. (murually assured destruction) It shines a different light on the possibility of a direct war between any of the superpowers with nukes. Therefore, Big navies are present for the bluffing factor. It can only be a war between proxies as was the case in Syria for the most part.

    Then there's the Trump wildcard??

    And I would say too, that we long ago passed the point at which the US could win an allout war. Even Russia getting a couple through to N.Y. and L.A. would be too much for the US hawks to even contemplate.

    Yes, I suppose you're right that Korea wouldn't be a big enough tradeoff. But China is going to get the Koreas as surely as the US thinks it's going to take Venezuela. My opinions at best.

    Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

    montgomery wrote:

    And RT.com reports today that Trump has announced that the military option is on the  table.

    I think we need to encourage dialogue on issues such as Venezuela because Canadians are quite amazingly, not getting the truth that it's not Russia that is the aggressor running roughshod over the world, it is the US!

    I'm always going to invite those who don't believe that's so to speak their minds. I'm offering some persuasion, without abuse, to see things in their proper light.

    Nobody on this board denies that the US is a massive aggressor in the world.  You are not the only person who holds the views you hold and there are no secret reactionaries here who need to be "unmasked".  Can you please keep the discussion focused on the issues, rather than seeing this as a personal battle or something?  

     

    iyraste1313

    I think we need to encourage dialogue on issues such as Venezuela because Canadians are quite amazingly, not getting the truth that it's not Russia that is the aggressor running roughshod over the world, it is the US!...

    I beg to differ, here......first I do believe in the deep state, as initially proposed by Eisenhauer in 1956!!

    I think, with Trump being so erratic...the forces behind the thrones are using other proxies for their initiatives.....as in this case for Venezuela...Canada...there is considerable evidence available of the active engagement our our Ministry in the coup plotting.

    Not only the matter of an erratic Trump, Canada has no real opposition to neoliberal imperialism, while in the USA there is considerable disagreements amongst the media, so called left and right, with some brave antiwar, anti imperialist congress people. In Canada our media is a total monopoly, of course in total violation of our *democratic rights*, but who cares what with a dumb downed Canadian population....

    Paladin1

    Maybe Trudeau could get some brownie points by promising peacekeepers down there. 

    It's not like the military is tapped out operating in Latvia, Ukraine, Poland, Iraq, Mali, Niger, Nigeria, Kuwait, Jordan and such. 

    iyraste1313

    Dimitri Orlov points to the end of the fracking boom in the US as a reason why there is haste in trying to dominate Venezuela.  He writes “the fracking bonanza is ending. Most of the sweet spots have already been tapped; newer wells are depleting faster and producing less while costing more.” Fracking is already losing billions and soon will be losing trillions of dollars. As a result, a “rather large oil shortage is coming, and it will rather specifically affect the US, which burns 20% of the world’s oil.” While a sensible country would use this as a reason for a rapid transition to a clean energy economy, the US seeks to prop up its oil companies by stealing Venezuela’s oil.

    montgomery

    Venezuela fails to met the US deadline for elections so declares a new government.

    https://www.rt.com/news/450618-maduro-us-david-goliath/

    montgomery

    Ken Burch wrote:

    montgomery wrote:

    And RT.com reports today that Trump has announced that the military option is on the  table.

    I think we need to encourage dialogue on issues such as Venezuela because Canadians are quite amazingly, not getting the truth that it's not Russia that is the aggressor running roughshod over the world, it is the US!

    I'm always going to invite those who don't believe that's so to speak their minds. I'm offering some persuasion, without abuse, to see things in their proper light.

    Nobody on this board denies that the US is a massive aggressor in the world.  You are not the only person who holds the views you hold and there are no secret reactionaries here who need to be "unmasked".  Can you please keep the discussion focused on the issues, rather than seeing this as a personal battle or something?  

     

    Ken please, the topic. Not me!

    And now see post #244.

    montgomery

    iyraste1313 wrote:

     

    I beg to differ, here......first I do believe in the deep state, as initially proposed by Eisenhauer in 1956!!

     

    I'm assuming that you bet to differ on my statement that Canadians aren't getting it. By all means differ because dialogue is important. I submit that polls show huge support for the US. I won't pursue my point with evidence of such because I believe it's obvious but I would definitely like to see polls backinig your opinion.

    Paladin1

    People in the country are starving to death. There's no food, inflation is set to reach 10 million percent in 2019.  Citizens are fleeing in all directions.

    Should the US get involved or sit back and send thoughts and prayers. 

    Should the US and other countries just throw money at them (like the 53 million Canada is pledging)? Or physically step in? 

    If a country is donating millions of dollars in aid or just money do they have a right to become involved in how its used? Ensure its not lining warlords and criminals pockets?

     

    In 2017 Maduro devised a plan to raise rabbits in order to feed the starving population- the only problem is that anyone with an outdoors background will tell you you can't survive on rabbit meat. You'll die, the meat is too lean. 

    montgomery

    Paladin1 wrote:

    People in the country are starving to death. There's no food, inflation is set to reach 10 million percent in 2019.  Citizens are fleeing in all directions.

    Should the US get involved or sit back and send thoughts and prayers.

    First off Paladin, this is excellent grist for the mill! You've asking the hard questions, even though you don't volunteer any answers. But you're begging the question to members of this board. I'll gleefully start!

    The US should have never become involved in Venezuela because the US is the cause for all the problems. The US meddles in small countries where socialism (socially responsible capitalism) is gaining a foot hold with popularity of the people. Then the results of US interference causes widespread famine in a very rich country. So that's it in a nutshell Paladin so I won't get into all the complicated details.

    Quote:
    Should the US and other countries just throw money at them (like the 53 million Canada is pledging)? Or physically step in?

    Bearing in mind what I've said above, NO, the US shouldn't be throwing money at Venezuela. The US is throwing money at it's cause of an unlawful coup against a duly elected government. And of course the US and/or Canada should not step in with military action. WHAT THE HELL KIND OF A QUESTION IS THAT? You can't be serious on entertaining a war in Venezuela?? 

    Quote:
    If a country is donating millions of dollars in aid or just money do they have a right to become involved in how its used? Ensure its not lining warlords and criminals pockets?

    NO! THE US HAS NO RIGHT TO STEP IN, NO MATTER WHAT THE CONSEQUENCES AND THE US HAS NO RIGHT TO BE SUPPORTING A COUP. 

    Quote:
    In 2017 Maduro devised a plan to raise rabbits in order to feed the starving population- the only problem is that anyone with an outdoors background will tell you you can't survive on rabbit meat. You'll die, the meat is too lean. 

    Maduro's plan was a desperate attempt to save his people because the US caused the situation. Nuff said!

    Now what is YOUR position Paladin. I sincerely hope I have not left any doubt on mine! 

    As to the obvious need for a solution, the US should not block any attempts by the UN to send aid to Venezuela with no political strings attached. 

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