Woolwich Beheading Blowback from UK's Neo-Colonial Crimes?

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talkback

The Westboro Baptist Church has NEVER called for the murder of gays?  Dude, have you never read their signs?

They say things like "F### will burn in Hell"--they do NOT call for the public stoning of homosexuals, as Choudary and other Salafis have.

And, as to Afghanistan...the Taliban isn't running the place anymore, therefore there's NO LONGER any reason for "NATO" to be there.

The Taliban are 'not running the place,' but still a powerful insurgent force in Afghanistan and Waziristan.

It's time to end the colonial occupation and bring the troops home.

For the umpteenth time, this is NOT a 'colonial occupation,' but the military response to the mass slaughter of people on the soil of a NATO alliance member by an element (al Qaeda) granted safe harbour by the former Afghan government. This is no more a 'colonial occupation' than the occupation of Germany by American and Soviet troops after WW II.

[B]y the same token, almost no one in Afghanistan or Iraq deserved the deaths THEY suffered through.

So the Axis troops killed by machine gunning Allied soldiers "didn't deserve the deaths they suffered through"? Sorry, but the Taliban were ideological fellow travelers and allies of al Qaeda, which murdered 2,996 people, in addition to niceties like acid and IED attacks on civilians. If anyone deserves to suffer, it's them.

Fidel

What proof  of "Al Qaeda" do you have besides none?

Dont be foolish - there is no such thing as an invisible army of darkness. Elvis bin Laden was dead years and years ago. Uncle Sam and lapdog newz media are only pulling your leg about all that.

Don't believe it.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Hi talkback, as you know, babble has an anti-imperialist mandate, and I don't find that your comments in this thread uphold that mandate. I'm going to ask that you don't post again in this thread. Thanks.

autoworker autoworker's picture

Sometimes I think we forget that our species reacts viscerally to acts of violence, which is the basis of terror. Such fear, instigated in the interests of a purpose, or a cause, is terrorism, I believe. If acts of terrorism are a manifestation of asymmetrical warfare, then NATO is at war with fifth columnists, and their sponsors, who are propagating acts of violence against citizens of the alliance. Also, as an aside: What is Salafism, if not an attempt to restore an Islamist empire; a caliphate?

NDPP

EDL Marches on Newcastle as Attacks on Muslims Increase...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/edl-marches-on-newcastle-as-a...

"BNP and EDL are accused of attempting to fuel racial hatred, Islamophobic hate crimes are running at more than ten times their usual rate..."

 

'Tommy Robinson' on Canadian Radio - Newstalk 1010 (and vid)

http://youtu.be/927vG9Xq2Yg

"In the wake of the Woolwich murder, English Defence League leader Tommy Robinson spoke on Canadian radio on 24th May, 2013

Or did he?"

 

The EDL leader concluded an alliance with the local Zios of the Jewish Defence League Canada a while back. Apparently they share much in common, including a virulent islamophobia..

http://rabble.ca/babble/activism/urgent-action-stop-jdl-adls-islamaphobi...

 

autoworker autoworker's picture

There's little doubt in my mind, that this bloody incident has kindled an extremist backlash, as was likely intended. Enoch Powell's infamous "rivers of blood" premonition ominously comes to mind.

talkback

Catchfire wrote:

Hi talkback, as you know, babble has an anti-imperialist mandate, and I don't find that your comments in this thread uphold that mandate. I'm going to ask that you don't post again in this thread. Thanks.

Kick me off of the forum if you must, but bear this in mimd: the NATO involvement in Afghanistan is NOT 'imperialist,' any more than the Allied occupation of defeated Germany. Remember that the former Taliban government protected elements which comitted an act of war against a NATO member (USA) that resulted in the mass slaughter of nearly 3,000 people. The NATO member countries, unlike 'imperialists,' want to get the Hell out ASAP--'imperialists' do NOT have an exit strategy. Contrast this with the bloody imperialism of Russia in Chechnya (over oil and pipeline transit points), and China's brutal colonialism of Uighur, Tibetan, and Mongol land. No THAT'S imperialism...but Marxist russo and sinophiles here don't want to talk about that. In fact, I have read unabashed PRC propaganda about how the Chinese Communist Party 'liberated' Tibetans from their culture and self-rule. And a couple of posters subscribe to Michael Parenti-style denials of Yugoslav attrocities in the Kosovo conflict. It seems that some forms of 'imperialism' and even ouitright colonialism and racism are considered valid, here.

Catchfire, shutting down debate is not conducive to free discourse. The discourse here on Babble is extremely narrow, and confined to duckspeaking New Left-type Marxist cliches. This is the leftist counterpart to those slavishly pro-Israel sites that deny Israeli ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian population...but at least those sites attack dissidents with random Biblical quotes, rather than engaging in Communist-style censorship. There is no point in discussing anything when one is forbidden from challenging a certain mindset--here, namely, the old 'imperialism' canard. The reality is that the war in Afghanistan was the legitimate retaliation and intervention against a violent regime, which still has a robust and well-armed insurgent army--that launched a devastating and unprovoked attack (9/11) against a country (the U.S.). Two and two may make five in the minds of some people here, but that isn't the reality.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Hi talkback, don't post in this thread again. Thanks. Any further replies will be deleted.

NDPP

The Monster in the Mirror  -  by Arthur Silber

http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.ca/2013/05/the-monster-in-mirror.html

"...It is not the monster who commits the single crime who demands our attention. It is the monster for whom crime and murder are a systematic mode of behavior, for whom slaughter and devastation are chosen instruments of policy in pursuit of hideous ends..."

contrarianna

A different perspective from Terry Eagleton in the Guardian, yesterday:

Quote:
Woolwich murder: we must use reason to beat terrorists

To deny the Woolwich attackers any shred of rationality is to come perilously close to excusing them.

Why did the Woolwich killing happen?....anyone who dares to use the words "western foreign policy" in this context is bound to be speedily shut up ...

On this logic, the best way not to sound as though you are in favour of murdering soldiers on the streets of London is to see such events as utterly without rhyme or reason, like some baffling Dadaist happening. To concede that they have a motive, however malign, is to invest them with a dignity one feels the need to deny them. British intelligence, one assumes, was well aware some years ago that the IRA had rational grounds for its actions, however reprehensible it may have judged them. They weren't just killing out of boredom or bloodlust. The popular press, however, preferred to present guerrillas as gorillas – as psychopaths and wild beasts whose actions were simply unintelligible.

There are at least two problems with this strategy. For one thing, if you deny your enemy any shred of rationality, you come perilously close to excusing him....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/26/woolwich-murders-rea...

Fidel

talkback wrote:
The NATO member countries, unlike 'imperialists,' want to get the Hell out ASAP--'imperialists' do NOT have an exit strategy..,

...and China's brutal colonialism of Uighur, Tibetan, and Mongol land. No THAT'S imperialism...but Marxist russo and sinophiles here don't want to talk about that

 

The Uighurs are a compicated aspect of Gladio plan B. They were trained in terrorism(guerilla warfare, IED's, car bombings, hijackings, etc) in U.S., British, and Saudi-funded terrorist training camps in Afghanistan and Eastern Asia, and they have attacked Chinese citizens as well Chinese police and troops. Yes they have.

But in order for Uncle Sam to win Beijing's nod for the illegal military attack and occupation of Iraq they needed to recognize a Turkish wing of the Uighurs as a terrorist group. Uncle Sam and Brits still support various Uighur terrorist groups in Central Asia and China, though. It's why they freed a group of them from Guantanamo Bay Naval base. Sometimes it's difficult for Uncle Sam to keep track of the many terrorist groups funded and supported by the United States Government.

6079_Smith_W

contrarianna wrote:

A different perspective from Terry Eagleton in the Guardian, yesterday:

Good article. And even if the act itself was in part the result of some other stress, that doesn't mean there was no reason or responsibility there either.

 

 

NDPP

Islamophobia Attacks Soar as EDL Demonstrate in Britain

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2013/05/28/305809/islamophobic-attacks-soa...

"The Eglish Defence League responded to the horrendous Woolwich murder by announcing the war with Islam had finally arrived on the streets of Britain. Charities documenting Islamophobia also say that the English Defence League is often fueling these attacks. Britain is now witnessing some of its worst islamophobia ever as attacks on Muslims and mosques soar..."

6079_Smith_W

I was a bit surprised that CBC refered to the EDL as a "nationalist" group.

What the hell does that mean? Do they ask to see passports before they assault and kill people? It's not being unbiased; it's completely inaccurate.

Unionist

I think they meant national socialist.

NDPP

Perhaps they meant 'National Socialist'...

NDPP

hey U great minds think alike!

NDPP

Woolwich Attack: Call for Calm After EDL Demo Clashes, War Memorials Vandalized and Mosques Attacked

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/woolwich-attack-call-calm-after-191...

"...People are using what happened last week to the soldier Lee Rigby to try to create divisions in our communities."

NDPP

RT: Breaking The Set (and vid)

http://rt.com/shows/breaking-set-summary/chicago-shuts-schools-woolwich-...

"Finally, a close look at the Woolwich killing of a British soldier in broad daylight and the possible connection the UK's MI5 intelligence service had in the radicalization of the murder suspect. Abby talks to journalists Afshin Rattansi and Assed Baig from London about the latest in the case."

contrarianna

talkback wrote:

The Westboro Baptist Church has NEVER called for the murder of gays?  Dude, have you never read their signs?

They say things like "F### will burn in Hell"--they do NOT call for the public stoning of homosexuals, as Choudary and other Salafis have.....

Bringing up the Westboro Baptist Church is an absurd red herring. They are a fringe cult hated by all, including the US military.

I'm not even going to try here to correct the subsequent fantasy interventionist history of foreign aggression. That would mean tilting against the obdurate irrational. So that vehement WB Church claim, with its non-relation to fact, must stand for the particular habit of mind.

The Westboro Baptist Church,  as is commonly known, demands the death penalty for homosexuals:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/10/11/westboro-baptist-church-member-says-gays-should-absolutely-be-put-to-death-claims-to-be-life-long-democrat/

http://www.polarimagazine.com/heroes-villains/hate-filled-westboro-baptist-church/

Quote:
Here are some samples of yesterday’s Westboro Baptist Church (WBC) Loving Tweets:

Westboro [email protected]
@NBCNews: #BostonMarathon explosion aftermath: How you can help? Only help: Say reinstate Death Penalty for F[***]! Stop proud sin & #ObeyGod

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/04/16/1202298/-Westboro-Hate-Group-Says-God-Blames-Gay-Marriage-For-Boston-Will-Picket-Bomb-Victims-Funerals[/quote

Ken Burch

6079_Smith_W wrote:

I was a bit surprised that CBC refered to the EDL as a "nationalist" group.

What the hell does that mean? Do they ask to see passports before they assault and kill people? It's not being unbiased; it's completely inaccurate.

Perhaps "English Supremacist" might be more accurate.  Still, the label "nationalist" can be applied to the EDL because, after all, the United Kingdom is made up of three countries(England, Scotland, and Wales)and part of another(Northern Ireland).  Most of the UK population lives in England and is of nominally "English"(i.e., Anglo-Saxon) ancestry, though that majority is slowly declining, as is to be expected of a modern society, and more and more people who identify as "English" are a mixture of Anglo-Saxon and other ethnic or racial strains.

The EDL sees these trends as a threat and wants to reassert the primacy of "England" within the UK, and of Anglo-Saxon people within England, while putting all who aren't "English" in "their place", as it were.  The EDL, therefore, is both a nationalist and essentially racist organization.  It is slightly less openly racist than the BNP, but more so than the Conservative Party.

NDPP

and easily as Zionist too...

Uncovered: The Unholy Zionist-EDL Alliance

http://middleeastmonitor.com/articles/europe/1484-uncovered-the-unholy-z...

"The increasingly cosy relationship between the extremist, racist EDL movement and the ultra-racist Zionist movement in the UK is becoming more and more visible with each passing demonstration that they attend..."

 

Wikipedia: English Defence League

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Defence_League

"...The Canadian Jewish Defense League has held a demonstration in support of the EDL, saying that the two groups will 'take a stand against the forces of political Islam."

6079_Smith_W

There is a God & she has a sense of humour: "Right wing extremists chased Through London by Women Dressed as Badgers" http://t.co/IFOEyHH5vb

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/473597/20130601/bnp-edl-hate-fascist-b...

 

NDPP

SAVE THE BADGER! (and vid)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4r2dXJKDFE

NDPP

London Mosque Burns Down, Arson Feared Over Discovery of EDL 'Stamp' (and vid)

http://rt.com/news/london-mosque-fire-muswell-264/

"A two story Islamic center burned down  overnight in north London in an incident being treated as possible arson. Rescuers found 'EDL' scrawled on the building's remains, fueling fears of a racially motivated revenge for the bloody Woolwich execution..."

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Brilliant article by ultra-talented and experienced Sana Malik, rabble.ca's new news intern:

Stephen Harper, David Cameron and the political uses of Islamophobia

The Woolwich attack was a brutal reminder of the extremes of violence and ideology, rendered drastically intimate and immediate by a cellphone video that went viral. Two men wielding meat cleavers attacked British soldier Lee Rigby in a southeast London neighbourhood, leaving his body hacked and bloodied. One of the men, with blood-soaked hands, publicly declared on camera, "We will never stop fighting until you leave us alone." Yes, religion was evoked in his words, but his justifications allude to the many operations the British government and its allies have been responsible for abroad and at home in the name of the War on Terror. However, these are not the justifications the politicians publicly address.

Troublingly, mobilizing support for rushed but severe policies in the immediate aftermath of such events seems to be a recurring strategy of Western governments. And it is often done through creating a streamlined, fear-evoking narrative.

On June 1, former UK Prime Minister Tony Blair claimed, in an op-ed, that the core ideology leading to the brutal murder of British soldier Lee Rigby in Woolwich is a "problem" that exists "within Islam."

Blair's words point to a dark shift on the part of the British ruling elite to remove "political correctness" from their language and insert a vocal fear about a "reactionary worldview" deemed exclusive to Islam.

In the immediate aftermath of the Woolwich attack, David Cameron insisted that the Woolwich killing was "an attack on the British way of life," and London mayor Boris Johnson echoed that, arguing that no rational link exists between the attack and British foreign policy, nor in "what Britons do in operations abroad."

Reinforced by a media reaction that aims to similarly scapegoat Muslims and "spin" British involvement in war, or torture and detention of terrorist suspects abroad, Blair's comments in particular represent a more extreme turn of the formulaic statements issued by politicians in attacks post-9/11.

 

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