World financial crisis Part 5

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Pondering

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Pondering wrote:

Saying capitalism and democracy are incompatible is no different than saying socialism and democracy are incompatible. I would say socialism is much more incompatible with democracy. It is certainly more incompatible with individual freedoms.

Gates, Bezos, Zuckerberg and all the other tech overlords like your messaging.

So if they eat eggs for breakfast nobody else should? I think we need many more socialist policies in Canada but I would not advocate pure socialism even if I believed in it because the majority of people are nowhere near moving that far left. I support Lascaris so obviously I support a far-left socialist agenda but he talks about ending tax shelters and wars not ending capitalism.

NDPP

I would hardly refer to Lascaris as 'far left.' Perhaps because the Canadian left is more generally liberal centrist it may however seem that way.

kropotkin1951

First off socialism and capitalism are economic systems. Democracy is a political theory as is syndicalism, which is the basis for many eco-socialist dreams.

The real question is does democracy only mean casting a vote for recurring dictators like we do in Canada.

Pondering

kropotkin1951 wrote:

First off socialism and capitalism are economic systems. Democracy is a political theory as is syndicalism, which is the basis for many eco-socialist dreams.

The real question is does democracy only mean casting a vote for recurring dictators like we do in Canada.

Exactly. I found out during the Duffy affair that senators had to own property in the province that they represent.  I assume that was to make sure things didn't get too democratic.

The development of mass communications and data handling coupled with an increasingy educated population suggests we are capable of having far more democratic systems than what we have now even just at the city level. 

Edzell Edzell's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:
Gates, Bezos, Zuckerberg and all the other tech overlords like your messaging.

Oh, are they on here? Do you know their user names?

Edzell Edzell's picture

To say that socialism is more incompatible with individual freedoms than capitalism, it seems to me, is a valid objective judgement, perhaps arguable in detail but nevertheless free of political ideology.

How various business tycoons would 'like to hear it' has no bearing on the level of its validity.

 

kropotkin1951

Edzell wrote:

To say that socialism is more incompatible with individual freedoms than capitalism, it seems to me, is a valid objective judgement, perhaps arguable in detail but nevertheless free of political ideology.

How various business tycoons would 'like to hear it' has no bearing on the level of its validity.

Sorry you missed my subtlety. Capitalism is not freedom it is enslavement by billionaires. So I named some of the ones that control the medium we are chatting on. Capitalism is set up on the basis that rich people are sheltered by the corporate veil from taking responsibility for their actions. No one without money has any say in a corporate decision because they are not shareholders. To say that having them run things is more democratic than a socialist government that is elected is frankly absurd.

Edzell Edzell's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Edzell wrote:

To say that socialism is more incompatible with individual freedoms than capitalism, it seems to me, is a valid objective judgement, perhaps arguable in detail but nevertheless free of political ideology.

How various business tycoons would 'like to hear it' has no bearing on the level of its validity.

Sorry you missed my subtlety.

Subtlety? That's hilarious.

Quote:
No one without money has any say in a corporate decision because they are not shareholders.
Others might quibble on various 'picky' (subtle) grounds but otherwise it's too obvious to merit  bandwidth.

Quote:
To say that having them run things is more democratic than a socialist government that is elected is frankly absurd.

Did I say that? I don't see it anywhere. It's another thing I must have missed, along with the subtlety.

 

kropotkin1951

"Socialism is more incompatible with individual freedoms than capitalism" is an inane and ridiculous sentence. Is that less subtle for you? Libertarianism is poorly disguised fascism IMO.

NDPP

Unfortunately, increasingly, so is 'Canadian progressive'.

Pondering

kropotkin1951 wrote:

"Socialism is more incompatible with individual freedoms than capitalism" is an inane and ridiculous sentence. Is that less subtle for you? Libertarianism is poorly disguised fascism IMO.

Libertarianism is incompatible with collective freedom which is implied by democracy.  In order to prevent the collective will of the people from abusing individuals we collectively decided certain aspects of life should be up to the individual.

kropotkin1951 wrote:
Sorry you missed my subtlety. Capitalism is not freedom it is enslavement by billionaires. So I named some of the ones that control the medium we are chatting on. Capitalism is set up on the basis that rich people are sheltered by the corporate veil from taking responsibility for their actions. No one without money has any say in a corporate decision because they are not shareholders. To say that having them run things is more democratic than a socialist government that is elected is frankly absurd.

I worded myself poorly. The way that capitalism is set up is not the way that capitalism must be. We are living under a particular form of capitalism that has been corrupted and inflitrated politics. It can't even be called free market because free markets dictate that if you can't find employees you raise wages. 

Has there ever been an age in which the powerful have not corrupted whatever system people have set up to attempt democracy? Over the ages the powerful have used education or lack thereof to control the masses. Unfortunately for them they need better and better educated workers and educated people cannot be kept as ignorant as before although mass entertainment has done a pretty good job of distraction. 

This is such a great video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lugRtNAJvUo&ab_channel=TheRationalNational

The likely future mayor of Buffalo is a black female socialist and she won the primary without big money and the former mayor refused to debate her which would have given her airtime. 

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/socialist-candidate-track...

India B. Walton beat Mayor Byron Brown, 52 percent to 45 percent, with 100 percent of precincts reporting. The Associated Press called the race late Wednesday morning.

Brown, 62, did not concede Tuesday night, saying the race was too close to call. He has served as Buffalo’s mayor since 2006 and previously was chair of the New York Democratic Party and a member of the state Legislature. The Buffalo News reported he's weighing a write-in campaign against Walton.

52% to 45% is not close. What is it with sore losers these days?

 

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

Despite our many disagreements, I hope we can all share Pondering's joy at the victory of India Walton in the Buffalo mayoral Democratic primary. This is good news for everyone on the left. Of course, as krop pointed out, the current ruling class and their hired help are not going to go quietly, so we should expect bullshit like write in campaigns  intended to siphon off enough Dem votes to swing the general election to the normally moribund Buffalo Republicans.

Edzell Edzell's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

"Socialism is more incompatible with individual freedoms than capitalism" is an inane and ridiculous sentence. Is that less subtle for you? Libertarianism is poorly disguised fascism IMO.

Oh, yeah, right. It's all clear to me now ;-D.

NDPP

'Capitalism is a function of imperialism, it cannot exist without it.'

https://twitter.com/BTnewsroom/status/1403419970873212936

"Watch Rania Khalek's exclusive interview with Marxist economist Probhat Patnaik."

NDPP

Beyond the Dollar Creditocracy: A Geopolitical Economy

https://michael-hudson.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Hudson_Valdai116.pdf

'Beyond the Dollar Creditocracy: A Geopolitical Economy' is how American and Canadian economists Michael Hudson and Radhika Desai, respectively title their paper centred on the rise of the dollar to the financial Olympus and a potential de-dollarisation. A major vulnerability has been identified in the global economic system that took years to build..."

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