Black Lives Matter Toronto briefly halts Pride parade

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swallow swallow's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:

I'm not saying I think BLM's concerns were illegitimate.I would hope that some progress comes out of this. I don't see that happening by drawing up battle lines.

Then don't draw up battle lines. Pride Toronto and BLMTO - PART of the community, not outsiders - aren't drawing them. 

6079_Smith_W

Telling people they aren't welcome is drawing a battle line.

And I didn't call anyone an outsider.

swallow swallow's picture

 No, you didn't, but that's subtext to a lot of comments.

6079_Smith_W

Not my comments; you can't talk about this without recognizing they are a distinct group (that is why they were leading the parade, after all) . But I have pretty clearly said that they are part of the LGBT community, even though they are also a distinct intersectional community. And for that matter I have said I think their concerns are valid.

So please don't imply that I consider them outsiders. I do not.

But I will say again that one part of a community doesn't get to decide something like this for the whole. And that is according to the organizer of the event, not me.

Unionist

6079_Smith_W wrote:

"exclusion does not promote inclusion"

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/gay-cop-black-lives-matter-letter-...

Finally read this letter, by a Toronto cop (and Afghan war vet) who identifies as "a homosexual", opposing what he believes to be the agreement between BLMTO and Pride Toronto to end police floats and booths. Here are some excerpts:

Quote:
 I can say with absolute pride that my peers, and my employers/senior management, have never made an inappropriate comment to me. I have never been made to feel discriminated against. [...]

The support that I have from my peers and supervisors has been unwavering. When I saw all those floats and officers marching (hundreds), I realized that my employer fully supports this part of me, and so many others like me. As I stood post at Yonge and College, ensuring a safe atmosphere, Chief Mark Saunders came up to me. I had the opportunity to salute him, and I knew that I had a leader who was invested in this celebration of Pride.

Here is what he has to say about the role of the Toronto police in dealing with persons of colour:

Quote:
.............................

Of course, he is entitled to say or not say whatever he likes, but he take take the time to provide this letter to the media, and decline any interviews on the matter. It's unfortunate that he didn't have the opportunity to answer questions about his tour in Afghanistan, or about his fine colleagues' propensity to discriminate, profile, and murder people. 

6079_Smith_W

Sorry to break it to you Unionist, but there are LGBT people in the police force and in the military, just like everywhere else. 

As I said upthread, it is actually a significant line of work because it was one which in the U.S. denied them the right to serve openly. You might not like it, and you might want to reduce them and the police to murderers. But I think that kind of reasoning would get quite a lot of people shut out of what is actually their own community.

It would be an interesting list, actually. Who else do you think doesn't belong at Pride? Catholics? Conservatices?

This is a personal letter. That he doesn't necessarily feel like jumping on board, doing a mea culpa and praising a group that is saying he is not welcome? Are you surprised? And that he isn't taking questions? Never mind that he isn't a police spokesperson, if he did he'd probably be accused of even more than these sins of omission you have pointed out.

Maybe they should have their own little shame parade, eh?

Unionist

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Sorry to break it to you Unionist, but there are LGBT people in the police force and in the military, just like everywhere else.

Typical provocative straw man comment - you seem to never quit, when people are trying to have a serious conversation.

Quote:
You might not like it, and you might want to reduce them and the police to murderers.

No, I was hoping this person, who decided to make himself a public figure, would spend 5 seconds recognizing what his beloved police have done to marginalized people. This is a person, you understand, who says he has never experienced discrimination. He presents discrimination as a thing of the past. I am entitled to critique his apparent indifference to the documented racism and brutality of the organization which he belongs to and vaunts to the heavens. I'm a little shocked that you don't seem to see it the same way.

Quote:
This is a personal letter.

No it's not. It's an open letter. With no follow-up questions allowed. Who knows what his motivation was in praising his chief, his supervisors, etc., while attacking the agreement between Pride and BLMTO. I think I can guess.

Quote:
Maybe they should have their own little shame parade, eh?

Were you under the impression that BLMTO, or Pride, or anyone, wanted to ban LGBTQ+ members of the police force from participating in the parade?

Or do you simply wish to leave that impression?

 

MegB
6079_Smith_W

Seriously, if I thought there was even the slightest chance this would do anything to improve the problems with the police force, I'd consider it. In fact, it would do nothing but make it worse.

I am aware it is the organization. Funny thing is, these murderers are still going to have to do their jobs blocking the street and clearing the way for the parade they aren't a part of. Just one example of how this demand runs counter to any solution to the problems here.

Caissa
Unionist

Caissa, your link didn't work for me for some reason - this one did:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/black-lives-pride-1.3665955

 

6079_Smith_W
kropotkin1951

This article is very interesting.  It would seem to me that gay cops are not being barred only their racist institution. Gay washing the Toronto police service is not consistent with fighting that institution for its racism. [bolding added by me]

Quote:

We achieved a commitment to our demands despite intense push-back from a primarily gay white male community. The same community did not want Black Lives Matter involved in Pride at all, even going so far as to create a group on Facebook called No BLM in Pride. Gender and sexual diversity, it seems, does not preclude racism or white privilege.

The majority of the leadership within Black Lives Matter – Toronto and Black Lives Matter internationally identify as queer or trans. Pride has always been for the most marginalized, and has always been for us.

Since the action, I have received hate mail and death threats, primarily from gay-identifying men. I have been screamed at on the street. I have been called a “nigger” more times than I care to count. People have told me I’m no longer part of the queer community because my Blackness has no place there. 

People who are not under the LGBT2QSIAA umbrella have used our action as an excuse to attack us with racist vitriol. Their actions are revealing the racism that prompted our intervention at Pride in the first place. 

We are not all on a level playing field fighting for the same equality. Any such claim is absurd. 

Some mainstream media have provided a platform for racist assertions and chosen to focus more on our demand that police not participate in future Pride parades than on the reality of anti-Black racism.

They are fostering a narrative wherein calling for an end to police floats in Pride is considered “discriminatory,” completely overlooking the reality of privilege and power granted to police. Black people are one of the fastest-growing prison populations in Canada, and racial profiling and death continue to be the outcomes all too often when police interact with Black communities.

https://nowtoronto.com/news/pride-2016/exclusive-black-lives-matter-prid...

 

Unionist

[url=https://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2016/07/06/john-tory-supports-pol... Tory supports police participation in Pride parade[/url]

Quote:
Mayor John Tory has written a letter to the Toronto Police Association expressing his support for continuing police participation in Toronto’s Pride parade.

Seems to have emboldened the cops. Even though Mathieu Chantelois said he didn't agree to BLMTO's demands, only to discuss them:

Quote:
[Toronto Police Association president Mike] McCormack said even if the agreement was made to move the parade along, officers deserved an apology. He said the agreement to exclude police from future Pride parades had been “a slap in the face” to all police officers.

“Our officers feel thrown under the bus, as it were, or betrayed by the organizers,” he said Monday.

Spoken like a man with much experience of slapping people in the face and throwing them under buses.

 

 

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
I dunno.  Pride is way more significant, politically, than Caribana.

How do you figure?  Everything I'm reading here suggests that pride is politically null and void -- just a big dance party.

Quote:
I think activists are entitled to target selectively based on what they expect the results will be.

I don't disagree, and I certainly wouldn't expect BLM to start chaining themselves to old-growth trees and such.  But if they protested Pride on behalf of the inclusion and safety of LGBTQ people of colour at Pride, it wouldn't seem to me inappropriate to show the same concern for the inclusion and safety of LGBTQ people of colour at Caribana.  It's not the same event, but it's exactly the same people.  The biggest difference is that at Pride they'd be marginalized (or worse) for being black, and at Caribana it would be for being queer.

Quote:
Did BLM ask Pride Toronto to do anything external to its organization?  Seems like a bizarre analogy.

Fair point.  Hard to ask a Canadian festival to go to war with a sovereign country.  But what about doubling the funding for queer floats/acts/spaces?  Heck, what about just "no Jamaican float"?  Jamaicans would, of course, be free to attend, so long as they're there for the fun, and not to promote a country that continues to criminalize homosexuality (notably only between men) and to condone violence against gay men?  If you're a gay black man, is a TPS float all about marginalization and violence, but the Jamaica float is about acceptance and safe spaces?

Of course I'm not really going to tell BLM, or Caribana, or Pride, what they have to do, but I think the parallels are obvious enough that wondering whether BLM is going to hold their other community accountable to the same marginalized people isn't unreasonable.

mark_alfred

Re:  post #65. 

Apples and oranges, IMO.  Pride historically was an expression of protest and inclusion (and this still is a part of its official vision) whereas Caribana (or whatever it's now called) is almost solely a celebration of culture (specifically Caribbean culture).  Protesting the former for its eroding commitment to the idea of inclusion and diversity makes sense, whereas protesting the latter seems (unless I'm unaware of something) without cause -- at least regarding what Caribana (or actually, "Toronto Caribbean Carnival") is aiming to do.  If members of BLM-TO decide they want to get a costume together and join one of the accepted masquerade bands in the Caribana parade (or if they themselves want to put together and apply to be one of the bands -- I believe there are about 15 or so in the parade) then they're free to do so -- as is anyone, regardless of race or orientation, as long as the band is Caribbean in nature (IE, I'm guessing a bunch banjo players would not make the cut).  From an older blog post I found, I believe the masquerade bands typically have fundraisers and sell costumes to those that wish to join in. It would be up to the bands themselves though, I believe, regarding whether they allow people to join them or not.  But again, perhaps BLM-TO could themselves apply to be a masquerade band within the parade if they wished.  But frankly, I see no rationale for BLM-TO to apply to be a masquerade band in the parade, whereas with Pride there certainly was a rationale.  ETA:  here's some stuff on the bands:  http://www.torontocaribbeancarnival.com/organizations.html

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
Apples and oranges, IMO.  Pride historically was an expression of protest and inclusion (and this still is a part of its official vision) whereas Caribana (or whatever it's now called) is almost solely a celebration of culture (specifically Caribbean culture).

Is being a celebration a bad thing or a good thing?  People seem to believe it's a bad thing that Pride has become "nothing more than" a celebration.

Quote:
Protesting the former for its eroding commitment to the idea of inclusion and diversity makes sense, whereas protesting the latter seems (unless I'm unaware of something) without cause

I would assume that both would be about ensuring the inclusion and safety of a marginalized group.  As I noted, it's even the SAME group. 

mark_alfred

Re:  post #67

If there is something to protest then they should protest.  Still, unless they put together a masquerade band that was on a par to join the other 13 or so that comprise the parade and applied and then were unreasonably denied, then I don't see an argument for lack of inclusion.  And of course any public event requires safety for both its participants and observers.

milo204

some relevant questions:

whats the backstory with blockorama and the other groups that were apparently removed unwillingly from the pride festival.  why were they removed?  what's the deal there

What's the story on funding, were they actually getting half the money other groups were getting or something?  any details there?

What's the history here that has BLM feeling rejected/pushed to the side by the festival?  has there been bad blood in the past or anything untowards done by pride towards the black community?  

i haven't heard anyone talking about this in depth

mark_alfred

Re:  post #69

To my knowledge, Blockorama was not removed, but there's been a history of it being given less prominence.  From this Star article:

Quote:

The need to return Pride to its community roots hit a flashpoint in 2010 as debate raged over the inclusion of the Queers Against Israeli Apartheid group, programming for Dyke Day was moved away from the locus of activity, the Trans March was organized without consultation, and Blockorama was moved to a smaller location.

“At that point I think a whole lot of people in the community realized that this was no longer an event that had notions of community as its central focus. It was becoming more of a tourist event that had making-money for people as its focus,” McCaskell said.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/07/03/black-lives-matter-protest-s...

mark_alfred

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2016/07/07/pride-has-divorced...

Quote:

As Ware and others fight tirelessly for visibility and acceptance within Pride, media and politicians fret about whether or not the cops, whose brutality birthed Pride, will now feel welcome (BLMTO has demanded to end police floats in the parade). Rinaldo Walcott, a black queer academic in Toronto, pointed out in a phone interview that “white queers have long argued that the militarization of Pride — floats for the army, the military, the navy — is inappropriate.”

But our city still feels particularly threatened to hear the same demands from black people, and questions their right to speak at Pride. Says Walcott, “That tells us how deep the problem of anti-black racism is, in queer communities and beyond.” Toronto scorns blacks for raining on the parade, when in reality black people are claiming a piece of Pride they have historically been denied.

pookie

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
Apples and oranges, IMO.  Pride historically was an expression of protest and inclusion (and this still is a part of its official vision) whereas Caribana (or whatever it's now called) is almost solely a celebration of culture (specifically Caribbean culture).

Is being a celebration a bad thing or a good thing?  People seem to believe it's a bad thing that Pride has become "nothing more than" a celebration.

Quote:
Protesting the former for its eroding commitment to the idea of inclusion and diversity makes sense, whereas protesting the latter seems (unless I'm unaware of something) without cause

I would assume that both would be about ensuring the inclusion and safety of a marginalized group.  As I noted, it's even the SAME group. 

Re the "celebration" aspect, surely it depends on what is being celebrated, and in what context. I guess BLM doesn't feel like there's much to celebrate right now.  Reading this board, they would ordinarily have lots of supporters on that score, even if the source of distress might be different.

I think Milo's point, which is reasonable, is that expecting BLM to now turn its attention to Caribana is strange given the nature of that event.  Again, if people have an argument to make that Caribana is exclusionary or promotes homophobia, let them make it.  Not just draw an automatic link from Pride to Caribana and therefore BLM should protest there too, becuz both happen to be parades (and, I guess, because Caribana tends to feature visible minorities - ETA I say that b/c I doubt the criticism would be levelled at their non-protest of, say, the St. Patrick's Day Parade).

Pondering

The BLM protest was successful. Since talking with my daughter I have a better understanding of the issues at hand. BLM did force the conversation through their action. Within this thread Swallow and a couple of others have touched on the points that convinced me. 

An official police float negates the mortal threat that visible minority (and mentally ill) LBGTQ people are still facing from the police. Including an official police float in the parade is white-washing in more than one sense. As usual as long as everything is hunky dory for white people, especially white men, then everything is fine. 

As long as a subset of the LBGTQ community is still under threat it deserves the support of the rest of the community. That is the meaning behind intersectionality. It's not just an academic debate point. 

If, once a group feels they have left their own oppression behind they desert those who are still being oppressed for a different reason then we become, if not oppressors ourselves, supporters of the oppressors. There is no neutral position. 

If the oppressed can't count on those who have managed to escape oppression, or close to it, then who can they count on? How is that not a betrayal? 

Listen to this rant:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/this-radio-dj-lost-it-at-a-police...

He is right. As long as police protect the guilty among them it is wrong to take the approach "it isn't all cops".  Were none of those gay cops part of the assault on peaceful G20 protesters in Toronto? Is the riot squad all straight white men? Were G20 protesters all straight whites or were there LBGTQ members among that abused crowd? 

"Honouring" BLM in the parade was intended to benefit Pride's reputation as progressive without the cost of genuinely supporting BLM. They weren't honouring BLM they were using them to sell Pride's image and to pat themselves on the back for being "inclusive". 

I was on the wrong side of this debate in this thread but I wasn't personally attacked on it because there are other members who are part of the babble inner circle who are also critical of BLM's action. 

mark_alfred

pookie wrote:

I think Milo's point, which is reasonable, is that expecting BLM to now turn its attention to Caribana is strange given the nature of that event.  Again, if people have an argument to make that Caribana is exclusionary or promotes homophobia, let them make it.  Not just draw an automatic link from Pride to Caribana and therefore BLM should protest there too, becuz both happen to be parades (and, I guess, because Caribana tends to feature visible minorities - ETA I say that b/c I doubt the criticism would be levelled at their non-protest of, say, the St. Patrick's Day Parade).

It was levelled at the Santa Claus Parade, oddly enough, by a CTV journalist.

https://nowtoronto.com/news/think-free-blog/why-wont-black-lives-matter-...

The Now Magazine article dismisses it as a "fucking stupid question", which I feel also applies to the question of Caribana, or St. Patrick's Day Parade, or Festival of India-Ratha Yatra Parade as well.  But, if there is an issue with any parade that BLM-TO has, then sure, protest it.  But as I mentioned previously, it's apples and oranges.  Pride has a specific vision and history to live up to that is different from these other parades.  As the Now Magazine article says,

Quote:
So no, the Santa Clause Parade is not about leveraging visibility to liberate queer bodies from past and present systems of oppression, nor a political march whose creeping militarization threatens to undermine the radical ideals at its core. It is a slightly different thing.

Pondering

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
I dunno.  Pride is way more significant, politically, than Caribana.

How do you figure?  Everything I'm reading here suggests that pride is politically null and void -- just a big dance party.

 

That's the point they are making. As long as part of the LBGTQ community is experiencing oppression it shouldn't be just a big dance party. 

Mr. Magoo wrote:
I don't disagree, and I certainly wouldn't expect BLM to start chaining themselves to old-growth trees and such.  But if they protested Pride on behalf of the inclusion and safety of LGBTQ people of colour at Pride, it wouldn't seem to me inappropriate to show the same concern for the inclusion and safety of LGBTQ people of colour at Caribana.  It's not the same event, but it's exactly the same people.  The biggest difference is that at Pride they'd be marginalized (or worse) for being black, and at Caribana it would be for being queer. 

It's not the same thing. BLM is not a Caribbean organization.  

Mr. Magoo wrote:
Fair point.  Hard to ask a Canadian festival to go to war with a sovereign country.  But what about doubling the funding for queer floats/acts/spaces?  Heck, what about just "no Jamaican float"?  Jamaicans would, of course, be free to attend, so long as they're there for the fun, and not to promote a country that continues to criminalize homosexuality (notably only between men) and to condone violence against gay men?  If you're a gay black man, is a TPS float all about marginalization and violence, but the Jamaica float is about acceptance and safe spaces? 

It is absolutely acceptable if the LBGTQ community wants to take a stand at Carabana. If they do I would expect the BLM queer community to support that action. BLM isn't asking the LBGTQ community to lead the BLM aspect of the LBGTQ protest. BLM is leading it's own protest. They are only asking for cooperation and support. If the LBGTQ community wants to protest Caribana floats sponsored by the Jamaican government I would certainly expect the BLM LBGTQ community to support them.

Mr. Magoo wrote:
Of course I'm not really going to tell BLM, or Caribana, or Pride, what they have to do, but I think the parallels are obvious enough that wondering whether BLM is going to hold their other community accountable to the same marginalized people isn't unreasonable.  

Except the parallels you are drawing are not accurate. You are saying that because some BLM LBGTQ members are likely from the Caribbean it's somehow the BLM/LBGTQ's responsibility to lead the protest at Caribana if they protest at Pride.

That is the equivalent of saying because some LBGTQ community members are black it is up to the LBGTQ community as a whole to lead the BLM Pride protest. That makes no sense. 

That some members of BLM are from the Caribbean doesn't mean it is the BLM/LBGTQ community's responsibility to lead a protest against any part of Caribana. I'm pretty sure BLM/LBGTQ members who are also from the Caribbean would happily support and join the LBGTQ community holding a protest at Caribana based on the mistreatment of LBGTQ in Caribbean countries. That is all they are asking the LBGTQ community for. 

6079_Smith_W

Pondering wrote:

That's the point they are making. As long as part of the LBGTQ community is experiencing oppression it shouldn't be just a big dance party.

...

That is the equivalent of saying because some LBGTQ community members are black it is up to the LBGTQ community as a whole to lead the BLM Pride protest. That makes no sense.

Didn't someone say if I can't dance, I don't want to be part of the revolution?

Of course none of this is cut and dried, though some might want to see it as such, but I don't think the point is these attempts at direct comparision. It is whether the event is big enough that it can include a variety of these things, or whether one doctrine is supreme.

And if Pride is perpetual protest and nothing more (presumably shutting out the celebration of positive change along with that decadent and self-indulgent dance party - after all, what is there to celebrate?) then they should probably not bother planning it as an annual event, inviting sponsors and planning activities, right?

 

mark_alfred

While I support their right to protest, I'll say that the no police floats/booths demand is the tricky one for me, since I do believe in the importance of accountable police protection for all communities (and believe in the police being willing to show cooperation with communities).  I remember the situation in '89.  Things were very bad here then.  I recall the marches and actions of the Black Action Defence Committee which led to the creation of the SIU, which was a step in the right direction.  There's certainly still issues with the police now (and there always will be issues -- police forces always require decent civilian oversight), yet I still can't shake the feeling that some of the animous felt toward police by BLM-TO is partly an import from the States (where the situation with police is nuts).  Regardless, BLM-TO has done great work, and it is good to re-evaluate the appropropriateness  of police as participants in the actual Pride parade itself, I suppose. 

Regarding some of the history in Toronto, Rosie O'Donnell wrote an article in support of BLM-TO a couple of months ago:  https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/04/17/black-lives-matter-a-welcome...

kropotkin1951

mark_alfred wrote:

There's certainly still issues with the police now (and there always will be issues -- police forces always require decent civilian oversight), yet I still can't shake the feeling that some of the animous felt toward police by BLM-TO is partly an import from the States (where the situation with police is nuts).  Regardless, BLM-TO has done great work, and it is good to re-evaluate the appropropriateness  of police as participants in the actual Pride parade itself, I suppose. 

I think there are enough police problems in Toronto. The problems are recurring and real if you are a member of the black community in TO. Dismissing them as US centric is not helpful.

Quote:

Demonstrators have been outside police headquarters since Ontario's Special Investigations Unit said it would not lay charges against the Toronto police officer who shot and killed Loku, a 45-year-old immigrant from South Sudan, in July 2015.

Protesters say what happened to Loku is a symptom of systemic racism. 

"I'm a lawyer, but folks don't see that. Before anything, they see a young black man," said Anthony Morgan of the African Canadian Legal Clinic. 

Morgan says he hears complaints every day from people about their interactions with police. 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/black-lives-matter-toronto-loku-1....

 

Pondering

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Pondering wrote:

That's the point they are making. As long as part of the LBGTQ community is experiencing oppression it shouldn't be just a big dance party.

...

That is the equivalent of saying because some LBGTQ community members are black it is up to the LBGTQ community as a whole to lead the BLM Pride protest. That makes no sense.

Didn't someone say if I can't dance, I don't want to be part of the revolution?

Of course none of this is cut and dried, though some might want to see it as such, but I don't think the point is these attempts at direct comparision. It is whether the event is big enough that it can include a variety of these things, or whether one doctrine is supreme.

And if Pride is perpetual protest and nothing more (presumably shutting out the celebration of positive change along with that decadent and self-indulgent dance party - after all, what is there to celebrate?) then they should probably not bother planning it as an annual event, inviting sponsors and planning activities, right?

I said it shouldn't just be a dance party not that partying or celebration of positive change can't be part of it too. 

It is pretty cut and dried to me. Either the Pride community supports all LBGTQ people or it doesn't. 

Sponsors and police are not participating to genuinely express support for the community they are doing so for public relations and branding while continuing to harm members of the community both in Toronto and worldwide. 

In allowing their participation Pride is helping them whitewash their reputations. 

Pride is not being asked to protest against police or against corporations. They are just being asked to not actively support organizations that are still oppressors.

 

6079_Smith_W

Perhaps the inconsistencies are better pointed out with a venn diagram.

So it can include all things except positive change and improving relations with respect to law enforcement.

Or does this requirement for all members of the community also extend to all other areas in which some members of the community are still experiencing oppression?

And Pride are hypocrites for having sponsors that are less than perfect in all things? Everyone's Idea of "not harming", you mean? That should be fun to figure out. We are going to need a lot of circles.

I expect the only one thing everyone will be able to agree on (except maybe the gardeners, but who cares about them) is banning the ad for crocs.

Pondering

6079_Smith_W wrote:

So it can include all things except positive change and improving relations with respect to law enforcement.

 

Not at all. Improving relations with law enforcement is an excellent goal. Condoning their actions against LBGTQ minorities is unacceptable. A police float would not have been accepted "to improve relations" when they were still raiding bathhouses. That LBGTQ members are being targeted based on their colour rather than their sexual orientation does not relieve the LBGTQ's moral responsibility towards minority members. They can support the Police Department, which is the route they took, or they can support minority LBGTQ members. They can't support both. 

6079_Smith_W wrote:
Or does this requirement for all members of the community also extend to all other areas in which some members of the community are still experiencing oppression? 

Yes it does extend. If there is a sub-group of LBGTQ members who are being oppressed by a specific organization that organization should not be welcome. For example, a male only golf club float should be rejected. Official Liberal and Conservative floats should also be rejected. 

6079_Smith_W wrote:
And Pride are hypocrites for having sponsors that are less than perfect in all things? Everyone's Idea of "not harming", you mean? That should be fun to figure out. We are going to need a lot of circles. 

There is a difference between being "less than perfect in all things" and actively oppressing people. LBGTQ members are literally afraid of being killed by police and with good reason. The carding of minorities is actively racist. Ontario has banned it forcing the Toronto Police to at least pay lip service to the law but they are not doing so voluntarily so it is no credit to them.  

Police are silent when their own murder innocent people, they are silent when their partners remove their badges, they are silent when they witness assalts and rapes. Unless you have a video police are immune, and even then they stick together. 

6079_Smith_W

Darn, I suppose that shuts out the "Kicking Small Dogs Club" float too.

And nice false binary, but there are plenty who do not agree with the idea that you "can't support both", and in fact see a contradiction between shutting down good lines of communication (like a presence at the event) and wanting to end discrimination and attacks.

 

 

Paladin1

Pondering wrote:

They are only asking for cooperation and support.

 

Physically stopping people from legally going where they want to go and extorting them in order for them to have freedom of movement again isn't asking for cooperation and support.

 

We're a lot more forgiving because it's #BLM who held up the parade.  We always make allowances for people when we're related to them, friends with them or identify with them.  I'm pretty sure the reaction here would be drastically different if a bunch of conservatives or the friends if Israel or someone stopped a #BLM or #Pride parade.  We would be screaming for the police to do their fucking jobs and get in there and arrest them.  But, it's different right?  We're collectively saying the ends justify the means because of who's doing it. If we're okay with that then good to go.

 

mark_alfred

First year law school student writes a complaint about her/his professor having worn a Black Lives Matter t-shirt during class. The professor responds.  See the link for both the complaint and the response:  http://imgur.com/a/YkDVQ

Unionist

Paladin1 wrote:

Pondering wrote:

They are only asking for cooperation and support.

 

Physically stopping people from legally going where they want to go and extorting them in order for them to have freedom of movement again isn't asking for cooperation and support.

 

Strong suggestion to babble comrades:

Don't engage with trolls and provocateurs.

Thank you.

Paladin1

Unionist wrote:

Paladin1 wrote:

Pondering wrote:

They are only asking for cooperation and support.

 

Physically stopping people from legally going where they want to go and extorting them in order for them to have freedom of movement again isn't asking for cooperation and support.

 

Strong suggestion to babble comrades:

Don't engage with trolls and provocateurs.

Thank you.

 

Oh Unionist. I get a kick out of how you always suggest babblers not respond to me yet turn around and do exactly that. (Usually when you seem bored). You don't think they're smart enough to make their own decisions or something?

Unionist

Paladin1 wrote:

Unionist wrote:

Paladin1 wrote:

Pondering wrote:

They are only asking for cooperation and support.

 

Physically stopping people from legally going where they want to go and extorting them in order for them to have freedom of movement again isn't asking for cooperation and support.

 

Strong suggestion to babble comrades:

Don't engage with trolls and provocateurs.

Thank you.

 

Oh Unionist. I get a kick out of how you always suggest babblers not respond to me yet turn around and do exactly that. (Usually when you seem bored). You don't think they're smart enough to make their own decisions or something?

What made you think I was talking about you? I was talking about trolls and provocateurs. Surely you don't fit in those categories, do you?

 

Paladin1

Unionist wrote:

Paladin1 wrote:

Unionist wrote:

Paladin1 wrote:

Pondering wrote:

They are only asking for cooperation and support.

 

Physically stopping people from legally going where they want to go and extorting them in order for them to have freedom of movement again isn't asking for cooperation and support.

 

Strong suggestion to babble comrades:

Don't engage with trolls and provocateurs.

Thank you.

 

Oh Unionist. I get a kick out of how you always suggest babblers not respond to me yet turn around and do exactly that. (Usually when you seem bored). You don't think they're smart enough to make their own decisions or something?

What made you think I was talking about you? I was talking about trolls and provocateurs. Surely you don't fit in those categories, do you?

 

 

Oh maybe it had something to do with being the 3rd or 4th time you've posted that in response to one of my threads lol

Besides I aient no troll, more of a paladin Wink

swallow swallow's picture

mark_alfred wrote:

While I support their right to protest, I'll say that the no police floats/booths demand is the tricky one for me, since I do believe in the importance of accountable police protection for all communities (and believe in the police being willing to show cooperation with communities).  

For the Pride committee, too. The other demands will be met, they say. The one about keeping police out will be the subject of a community debate (a community debate, by the way, was also a BLMTO demand). 

Pride was born in a fightback against police oppression. I don't know if the police should be exluded or not. But I think this history is worth remembering. I think the issue is worth talking about. I think it's important to acknowledge that the police forces' presence, in the way they are present, make many members of the community feel that the Pride parade is not a safe space for them. And it's worth asking how to change that.

I don't like the dichotomy of protest vs. celebration. Watch the video of the BLMTO parade-stopping and marching - it is beautiful, celebratory, strong. 

Another piece worth reading:

Quote:

Those critics who say that the BLMTO protest was an attack on LGBT people are really saying that they don’t see black people as part of the LGBT community.

Let’s be clear.

Black Lives Matter and its organizers are part of our community. Queer and trans black people are part of our community. Those aren’t and shouldn’t be controversial statements.

And when members of our community cry out and tell us that they feel unheard and that they have been marginalized, we should want to listen. This protest wasn’t an attack, it was a call for us and for our community to do better.

[url=http://www.dailyxtra.com/toronto/news-and-ideas/opinion/black-lives-matt... Toronto's managing editor: Black Lives Matter Toronto embodies the spirit of Pride[/url]

kropotkin1951

mark_alfred wrote:

First year law school student writes a complaint about her/his professor having worn a Black Lives Matter t-shirt during class. The professor responds.  See the link for both the complaint and the response:  http://imgur.com/a/YkDVQ

Wow that was quite the letter of complaint. When I was reading it I was thinking that this person has absolutely no understanding about many of the basic principles that a law school teaches. I loved the response.  

bagkitty bagkitty's picture

I am considering trying to crowd source an idea... taking away the keyboards of the (presumptively) straight posters, bloggers, commentators and other bloviators shaking an admonishing finger at anyone from the LGBT communities who has the audacity to suggest that BLM-TO's tactical decision to disrupt last weekend's Toronto Pride march was misconceived and, instead, forcing them to write their thoughts down longhand, using a (as one of the bloggers described it) "ridiculously gay" plume to pen their words. They can then go on a tour of smaller cities and towns nationwide to give public readings of what they have written and invite audience feedback.

6079_Smith_W

Might be too ageist for the moral censors, as the young whippersnappers can't  understand the secret oldster code.

Brilliant, but it will probably make more heads explode.

mark_alfred

Quote:

Pride was born in a fightback against police oppression. I don't know if the police should be exluded or not. But I think this history is worth remembering. I think the issue is worth talking about. I think it's important to acknowledge that the police forces' presence, in the way they are present, make many members of the community feel that the Pride parade is not a safe space for them. And it's worth asking how to change that.

http://www.pridetoronto.com/bathhouse-raids/

swallow swallow's picture

[url=http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2016.MM20.12]City of Toronto council motion: Support for Toronto Police Service at the 2016 Toronto Pride Parade - by Councilor Justin J. Di Ciano, seconded by Councillor Jon Burnside[/url]

This motion is literally a lie: "Since the inception of Toronto's Pride Parade, the Toronto Police Service has worked tirelessly to promote a safe and inclusive atmosphere that has enabled millions of global citizens to peacefully protest their fundamental rights and freedoms without fear of persecution or retribution." 

From 1981:

[img]http://onthebookshelves.com/raidsleaflet.jpg[/img]

"Too bad these showers weren't hooked up to gas." This is the origins of the Toronto police service relationship to Pride.

[img]https://canadianhistorycomesout.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/3000_riot.jp...

swallow swallow's picture

[url=http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/pride-parade-stjohns.... John's Pride Parade asks for police officers not to walk in uniform[/url]

Quote:

We responded by stating that we encourage and welcome all and any police to attend, but did however ask that if there would be additional police presence, it would be great if they could attend as off-duty, community allies - ideally not in uniform - as to better showcase strong police support of the LGBTQ community as individuals, and make the Parade more accessible to all. We suggested police officers could represent their unit in other ways, such as wearing T-shirts or carrying banners, etc.

This request was not meant to inhibit any police presence, but to welcome and encourage police officers to attend while not on duty. That said, the Pride Parade has always been an open invitation event to anyone who wants to walk with us and we will not be turning away any participants, uniformed or not.

 

 

mark_alfred
Mr. Magoo

Don Cherry weighs in on Tenorgate.

Quote:
"Oh well, all the left wing weirdos in this country are happy," Cherry said, although the "All Lives Matter" campaign is generally embraced by conservative Americans and not associated with left-of-centre politics.

Unionist

Another powerful statement by Brother Fred Hahn:

[url=http://cupe.on.ca/open-letter-pride-toronto-executive-board-co-chairs-re... letter to PRIDE Toronto Executive Board Co-Chairs, RE: Moving Forward, Strengthening Pride, and Response to Black Lives Matter[/url]

Quote:

Dear Alica and Aaron,

I am writing to you as a long-time resident of the Church and Wellesley neighbourhood, long-time Queer and Trans activist and one of Canada’s few openly gay union leaders. I am calling on the Executive Board of PRIDE Toronto to honour its commitment to Black Lives Matter.

[...]

This is a very critical moment for us all. In the strongest way I can possibly imagine or muster, I am asking you to stand with the thousands of Toronto LGBTQ+ people who are still struggling for equality.

I’m asking you to listen and act in the way we would have wanted others to listen and act in the 1980’s and 90’s. For the sake of our history and the very foundations of our movement, do not renege on your commitment to Black Lives Matter.

 

In Solidarity,

 

Fred Hahn

President

CUPE Ontario

 

 

mark_alfred

That's great.

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
do not renege on your commitment

Sorry to take counterpoint on this, but it continues to baffle me that anyone would believe there's a moral onus on the Pride Committee to "honour" an agreement that was pretty clearly not a good-faith agreement between allies.

Really, if we want to speak plainly, it was a ransom.  If Pride didn't want an entire parade to roast in the sun for six hours, they pretty much had to sign.  If you think anyone should be bound by such an agreement, please say why.  Bonus points if you can explain why the community should not have been consulted prior.

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